Is real pvp dead?

Chadk

Simple question.

The pvp in eve is great. Its just not friendly for solo players, which is a big factor for me.

All the blobbing, and the too big universe(You can travel for a long time, and not find players that you can kill).

WoW have battlegrounds, and the rogue is fun to play.

But i want pvp that REWARDS you. In wow, it doesnt.

Is my likings about pvp not to find anywhere?

Crafting is a big plus.

gjarreau

I think you might enjoy Guild Wars. The game was really designed with PvP in mind. It is imho the best for that, by far. It is however, fantasy, not sci-fi.

Swordman

Wait for WAR.

You can level up and get all your gear from PvPing only. Or from PvEing only, if you feel like that instead.

In addition, your PvP battles has an actual effect on the world. Moving you side closer to victory (or at least slowing its deafeat :P)

 

Possibly also AoC, but I haven't done enough research on their PvP to say for sure.

Astropuyo

I'm not too sure what "real" pvp is.

I find just killing the enemy plenty rewarding, then again I'm a big FPS player.

Theres some sort of nerd pride one gets from beating the crap out of the other guy.

I have always found it silly to give goodies for pvping and not making the same available for PvE.

That being said, the only "real" pvp (if i think I understand what you are saying) was/is UO.

Looting corpses is fun. Then again insurance and blessings ruined that.

I'll never forget my pre-nerf hally I looted off some jerk ass red.

(This thing was like a 1 hit kill, it's dmg ratio was RETARDEDLY high, it had escaped a very eary UO hally nerf.)

lomiller

PvP where you can hunt down and kill players who have built characters focused on other areas of the game and take the items they have put many hours into working for with little risk to yourself is dead and will never ever come back. 

 

All future PvP will be risk normalized to put the defender in the lower risk position. I.E. either there is little consequence to being attacked and killed of the attacker will face a much larger penalty for failure so that on average attacking someone costs you more then being attacked. 

 

If you don’t do this it quickly becomes very unattractive to play any style of game but gank/PK and the people trying to do other things leave for other games. One they do the ecology of the game implodes and the “PvPers” follow.  

 

Likewise solo PvP isn’t likely to exist outside of arenas if there is any significant reward/penalty associated with PvP. As soon as you make winning/loosing important people team up for protection and the game moves towards group PvP and fielding the larger more capable group becomes the route to success.

Mundus

Well I still find Neocron to be the best MMOG when it comes to combat and PvP.



You have real open pvp. Well, at least you are free to pull your gun everywhere you want.

However, you may get shot for it by guards in zones where this is not permitted (city core).

And what I miss most in other MMOGs: You have vehicles like bikes, jeeps and tanks.



Also, if you don´t like PvP, you can simply wear a little item called "law enforcer" or so and you can´t be attacked by other players.



You have quite a big map to conquer (outposts and factories) and you can loot other player´s belts (you have to hack them, though), which they drop when they die.



This can be very annoying, in case you get killed (once I actually lost my whole equipment (armor, weapon, etc.)), but rewarding, too, if you are on the other side, of course.



The graphics might be a little outdated (at least when I played the last time), however they have improved it with Neocron Evolution 2.1.



What´s more, you also have crafting in Neocron.

Well, it may be not as sophisticated as in other games, but it´s fun.

paulscott

wurmonline's wild server is fully open PvP(edit: an RvR thing actually), item looting, skill loss.  and the game itself is based around community, and crafting.

ptsakiris

Darkfall is full open free pvp (exept inside the racial capital cities), with full loot upon kill/death. Skill based (no need for level grinding) too. Great warfare of conquering towns, cities, or even build your own kingdom.



The only problem is that it's still under development



So either GW or Neocron atm if we accept to lower our "game specs".

Astropuyo

Originally posted by Mundus

Well I still find Neocron to be the best MMOG when it comes to combat and PvP.



You have real open pvp. Well, at least you are free to pull your gun everywhere you want.

However, you may get shot for it by guards in zones where this is not permitted (city core).

And what I miss most in other MMOGs: You have vehicles like bikes, jeeps and tanks.



Also, if you don´t like PvP, you can simply wear a little item called "law enforcer" or so and you can´t be attacked by other players.



You have quite a big map to conquer (outposts and factories) and you can loot other player´s belts (you have to hack them, though), which they drop when they die.



This can be very annoying, in case you get killed (once I actually lost my whole equipment (armor, weapon, etc.)), but rewarding, too, if you are on the other side, of course.



The graphics might be a little outdated (at least when I played the last time), however they have improved it with Neocron Evolution 2.1.



What´s more, you also have crafting in Neocron.

Well, it may be not as sophisticated as in other games, but it´s fun.

I think Neo's downfall was the both the lack of customization and the forced first person. I did beta that game, and I really REALLY liked it. For a month.

After that it just got boring to me, although the pvp was really fun. However I am a big FPS fan.

EggFtegg

Originally posted by lomiller


PvP where you can hunt down and kill players who have built characters focused on other areas of the game and take the items they have put many hours into working for with little risk to yourself is dead and will never ever come back. 
 
All future PvP will be risk normalized to put the defender in the lower risk position. I.E. either there is little consequence to being attacked and killed of the attacker will face a much larger penalty for failure so that on average attacking someone costs you more then being attacked. 
 
If you don’t do this it quickly becomes very unattractive to play any style of game but gank/PK and the people trying to do other things leave for other games. One they do the ecology of the game implodes and the “PvPers” follow.  
 
Likewise solo PvP isn’t likely to exist outside of arenas if there is any significant reward/penalty associated with PvP. As soon as you make winning/loosing important people team up for protection and the game moves towards group PvP and fielding the larger more capable group becomes the route to success.

This certainly seems to be the way these games are heading. There are potential ways round these issues though.

Looting and robbery are fine as long as there are ways provided to protect yourself from such actions. For example, an item that prevents someone from either taking or looking into your backpack or runes or some such on an item that prevents another player from holding it or that binds it to your person.

If you have either character class levels or skill levels, there also needs to be some kind of system within a game that prevents a higher level character repeated beating up lower level characters. This can be achieved with a statistic which goes up proportionally by level difference for every kill or theft from a significantly lower level character. You could then use this statistic to either prevent the character from attacking lower level characters at all, or have penalties gained for the higher this stat gets. A long enough recovery time, should put off your typical ganker from doing this too often, but allow for events or battles when such fights may need to happen.

If you use this example above, then you could separate crafting and diplomacy type skills from fighting skills to determine the "rank" of the character, thus allowing players to become expert crafters without having to be compared in level to someone who has concentrated on fighting. Also, if this "rank" could also take into account teams of players, you could also reduce group ganking in the same way.

The flip side of this could be some kind of honour points gained by defeating higher level players without assistance.

Astropuyo

Last I heard WAR will be having a loot table for players just as it would be for mobs.

They may of changed this however. If not I think thats a great way to approach it.

I do hope there is a timer on loot that is gained on a person, otherwise my buddies and I are gonna exploit that like hell.

EggFtegg

Originally posted by Astropuyo


Last I heard WAR will be having a loot table for players just as it would be for mobs.
They may of changed this however. If not I think thats a great way to approach it.
I do hope there is a timer on loot that is gained on a person, otherwise my buddies and I are gonna exploit that like hell.

Hmmm, how about if you could only loot body parts which you could then use in your crafting? You could make a leather vest from your enemy's skin or a necklace from his teeth.

Without some kind of death penalty, it could be left open to exploit.

Hadreynn

I'm holding out for WAR myself.  Few games can hold a candle to what Mythic did for PvP/RvR combat.

GIRO

in a word 'YES'

Farkel

A great PvP game would be WWII Online. The whole game is practically PvP except for a few AI sentry units

Kyleran

Originally posted by ptsakiris

Darkfall is full open free pvp (exept inside the racial capital cities), with full loot upon kill/death. Skill based (no need for level grinding) too. Great warfare of conquering towns, cities, or even build your own kingdom.



The only problem is that it's still under development



So either GW or Neocron atm if we accept to lower our "game specs".

The other problem for the OP is that it probably won't be terrribly solo friendly...you're really going to need the backing of your guildmates or you're just going to be fodder.....

Nyphur

Originally posted by lomiller


PvP where you can hunt down and kill players who have built characters focused on other areas of the game and take the items they have put many hours into working for with little risk to yourself is dead and will never ever come back. 

In Eve-Online, we call that Piracy and it's very much alive. It's obviously not as easy as just flying out, killing some miners, grabbing their loot and going home. They have defences that you'll need to get by but the tools are in the game to do so. For example, if a pirate warps into an asteroid belt and there's a guy there in a mining barge, he might get spooked and warp out before you can fly close enough to warp scramble him. But if you use the scanner to see if he's in the belt before warping in there, you can use a scan probe to get a 0m fix on his location and warp right on top of him. Of course, when an obvious pirate comes into the system and appears on the local channel, the miner should have stopped and docked anyway.



One main problem for piracy is lack of targets - the low security areas of the game where you can kill people are sparsely populated despite the vastly increased money you can make there than in the high security areas. Most people simply don't want the danger.

Chadk

Originally posted by Nyphur

Originally posted by lomiller


PvP where you can hunt down and kill players who have built characters focused on other areas of the game and take the items they have put many hours into working for with little risk to yourself is dead and will never ever come back. 

In Eve-Online, we call that Piracy and it's very much alive. It's obviously not as easy as just flying out, killing some miners, grabbing their loot and going home. They have defences that you'll need to get by but the tools are in the game to do so. For example, if a pirate warps into an asteroid belt and there's a guy there in a mining barge, he might get spooked and warp out before you can fly close enough to warp scramble him. But if you use the scanner to see if he's in the belt before warping in there, you can use a scan probe to get a 0m fix on his location and warp right on top of him. Of course, when an obvious pirate comes into the system and appears on the local channel, the miner should have stopped and docked anyway.



One main problem for piracy is lack of targets - the low security areas of the game where you can kill people are sparsely populated despite the vastly increased money you can make there than in the high security areas. Most people simply don't want the danger.

Oh hi Nyphur.

I blew you up in ZXIC and F4R2 not long ago(Yes, im from IAC).

I have done a bit of piracy. But the lack of targets, and the stupid 15 minuts aggro timer did it for me.

Nyphur

Originally posted by Chadk


Oh hi Nyphur.
I blew you up in ZXIC and F4R2 not long ago(Yes, im from IAC).
I have done a bit of piracy. But the lack of targets, and the stupid 15 minuts aggro timer did it for me.

Fun times.

0.0 warfare is really where Eve is being pushed toward. low security piracy is even being made mostly redundant by things like Privateers Alliance, who offer more targets and in high security systems.

Chadk

Originally posted by Nyphur

Originally posted by Chadk


Oh hi Nyphur.
I blew you up in ZXIC and F4R2 not long ago(Yes, im from IAC).
I have done a bit of piracy. But the lack of targets, and the stupid 15 minuts aggro timer did it for me.

Fun times.

0.0 warfare is really where Eve is being pushed toward. low security piracy is even being made mostly redundant by things like Privateers Alliance, who offer more targets and in high security systems.

I agree.

But at times(The IAC vs. ISS war proved it nicely) 0.0 warfare can be crap.

Capital stuff, blobs, etc. It puts me off. Privateer alliance is a fun idea tho. But then you cant even fly around empire without seeing wartargets!!

Anofalye

I am not much in PvP myself...and I don't really have the PvP skill to back the following...yet...

 

What I really like myself is when I witness something I judge unfair, to be able to stalk and assassinate the offender in a quick and efficient way.  In CoV, that would be...a 2-shots kill...5 hits at most.

Antipathy

Real PvP is occurring right now in the streets of Baghdad.



What you are playing right now is a game. Pretending that one style of game is "real" whilst another style is not is an abuse of language. The PvP in a game like EvE is no more real than chess.

EggFtegg

Originally posted by Antipathy

Real PvP is occurring right now in the streets of Baghdad.



What you are playing right now is a game. Pretending that one style of game is "real" whilst another style is not is an abuse of language. The PvP in a game like EvE is no more real than chess.

That's just getting confused now. The "P"s in PvP stand for player (as in game player) I wouldn't call the combatants in Baghdad, "players".

I would agree with you though that "real" isn't a particularly helpful term here though. How about "competetive" or "challenging" PvP and maybe "realistic" or "immersive" combat?

SavageOrc

Try  War rock its all pvp GREAT graphics new game too

Solanar

darkfall is about the only one I'm looking forward to, pvp-wise anyways.



God damn someone make that game come out sooner



and there is real pvp... calling baghdad real pvp is just being an asshole, that's a war.



although I guess you could use meaningful instead of real.



Full loot is a good thing, everyone thinks its just horrible. As long as dieing won't be really terrible (like eve) you could have an extra set of armor in a bank or just buy some, gear shouldn't be important. Oh look my gear makes me stronger than you because it's magical. bullshat. armor should be armor, sometimes deflects blows against you and reduces damage. yay Darkfall.