He's not lying when he said the content is repetitive. It is. There is no variation in the quests, they're really unimaginative. And yes, to the OP, there's plenty of adventures to go on in VG, but its too bad they're all exactly the same: kill x number of creatures and be an errandy boy quests, only a different piece of scenery every now and then. It's boring and its old and simply not good enough for a game that promised to really get on top of the pack.
Now this is a nice reply. I can agree with you to some point here. I don't consider them as wildly unimaginative as you. I really view them as the same stuff you would find in most MMO's, though I have come across some really fun ones.
My only real purpose was to derail the condescending, know-it-all, retard random. He's so cool on the internet.
There are plenty of imaginative quests in this game...the only r-tards that are whineing about the grind and the same dim bulbs that dont read the mission info in COH, blow through them as quickly as possible, then whinge cuz there is no content...come back to me when you are 'forced' to clear the same dungon 37 times to level up, then you can bitch (GUK anyone?)...until then, learn what the word grind means please?
Name some imaginative quests then please? All I remember, running around Khal in Qualia, was kill x number of scorpions...kill x number of rat people...kill x number hyenas...kill x number of desert bandits....kill x number of lions, fireflies and crocs while you're at it too cause that's all there is to do! Oh and deliver this letter to my friend a few miles away....That's it. I know its the same as every MMORPG out there already...but this is supposed to be the almighty Vanguard that promised to be way greater then anything else out there, a "3rd gen MMORPG."
And no, not all of us complaining blow through the content a.s.a.p. I read every word of those quests, trying to ignore the most embrassing voice acting in existence while I'm at it (Vulmane voices, anyone?) and taking my sweet time with everything.
Oh I love the Kojani and Vulmane voice acting the most. They're entertaining to say the least, especially Vulmane.
But umm, imaginative quests? There's none really, Adventuring quests are plain terrible. And I don't say this out of comparing Vanguard with another game, but to itself.
By that I mean, Diplomacy quests are very interesting and imaginative. Anyone do those Kojan track? Random teleporting to the top of mountains, leap of faith off of a broken mountain bridge to no where? Those are great, and I sorely wish the same designers who thought up and created the Diplomacy quests had a heavier hand in the Adventuring ones.
It isn't just that the story and lore of the Diplomacy quests are better, it's that they creatively employ more mechanical means better too. Adventuring quests severely abuse the kill X, loot Y, come back to Z type of quests. All you're ever doing is killing some number of something, looting quest items from it, or searching some area for things to loot off the ground. That's 99% of what you're doing; a far cry from the creativity that went into Diplomacy.
If you ask me, both Adventuring and Diplomacy could've been just as equally interesting, with the only difference being your success in a quest is determined by whether or not you win a fight, rather than winning a parley. They saw that reading the dialog of a parley wasn't enough to make it interesting, so they added imaginative tidbits around Diplomacy which are the true treasures; but didn't have the same insight in knowing repetitive killing was equally as unexciting as repetitive parleys and sorely needed something wrapped around it.
See, this is the Vanbois syndrom. Let's me explain.
When something "evil" is happening and that I personnally enjoys it, I don't deny it. I endorse it. So if someone tell me that the grind in CoV is bad, I would tell them they are kinda right...yet I love my grind...and the grind is much worser in other games, such as Vanguard. A grind is a grind...so what is your point? name one game you dont grind out experience...please. The OP was saying make your own way and ... feel how you feel. If you think its a grind...then it is. Yet, the Vanbois they are automatically denying anything and everything. I am sure if it they perceive that saying the sky is blue is negative, they would deny that. Automatic denial doesn't change the facts. The OP is saying its...percieved. If you feel its a grind then it will be. Personnally, I would have love the grind, but saying it isn't there is a lie. Vanguard is 1 of the worst grind on the market, second to Lineage and SoR and that is about it. I would love the grind myself, but it doesn't change the fact, that a grind is a grind. Ok its a grind.
See, this is the Vanbois syndrom. Let's me explain.
When something "evil" is happening and that I personnally enjoys it, I don't deny it. I endorse it. So if someone tell me that the grind in CoV is bad, I would tell them they are kinda right...yet I love my grind...and the grind is much worser in other games, such as Vanguard. A grind is a grind...so what is your point? name one game you dont grind out experience...please. The OP was saying make your own way and ... feel how you feel. If you think its a grind...then it is. Yet, the Vanbois they are automatically denying anything and everything. I am sure if it they perceive that saying the sky is blue is negative, they would deny that. Automatic denial doesn't change the facts. The OP is saying its...percieved. If you feel its a grind then it will be. Personnally, I would have love the grind, but saying it isn't there is a lie. Vanguard is 1 of the worst grind on the market, second to Lineage and SoR and that is about it. I would love the grind myself, but it doesn't change the fact, that a grind is a grind. Ok its a grind.
Every MMO is a grind, yeah, but its how its presented that is important. Unfortunately VG in particular does a bad job at presenting this grind (which is what Anofayle is getting at I believe) cause there's such little variation; the grind become much more obvious. I don't know about diplomacy but crafting is no better, doing boring work orders all day that make me bang my head against the wall.
Originally posted by Tutu2 Originally posted by Coldmeat Basically, you're limited by the technology itself. There's only so many cpu cycles to go around, and sadly, AI is at the shallow end of the pool as far as who gets what. Hell, it's a miracle these games work at all. But honestly, even if you had some sort of quantum crystal matrix alien tech cpu that afforded you unlimited cpu cycles to play with, just how different do you think the quests would be? Really, there's only so much you can do. Lord of the Rings is pretty high on everyones fantasy book list, but if you boil it all down, it's just an overlong FedEx quest. At the end of the day, once you strip away all the fancy dialogue, any quest is going to just be FedEx, Kill X of Y, Collect X of Y(killing Z for Y optional), Escort NPC. Now there are variations on those. The Go talk to NPC is just a variation on the FedEx, just you aren't taking up an item slot(s). And the Bring me the head/horn/arm of Random Bad Guy, is just a Kill X of Y with a FedEx element. And those cover every single quest I've ever done in an MMO, or even a single player RPG, really. Even in my PnP days, all the quests I remember, be they made up by the DM, or from premade modules, the quests were the same thing, even without the limitations of a PC, or keeping 50k+ people happy. Hell, sometimes, there wasn't even a quest involved. Sometimes we just went out to some dungeon, killed the baddies, for loot and xp. You know, grinding...
You have a point but...why not something slightly more...dramatic? Eg. A player-made base where the quest is to fight back the hoardes of minions trying to overtake it, where your skill in your class and skill in stragety is critical, where you might need the help of others too. That's exciting. I guess I'm asking for more dramatic, dynamic, interesting, fresh ways to present those quest archetypes you've described. VG doesn't have this its identical quest after quest...go to an area and a number of creatures and come back.
Yeah, your example would be pretty cool, and I agree that the devs, of any game, not just VG, would be better off hiring a screenwriter, or some other professional writer to do quest dialogue.
Mostly, I think it boils down to money, whether it being the cost of hiring a pro writer, or developer costs in time, money, and system impact. To use your example, it would be cool, it's certainly technically feasible, though I think it would cause issues in a game like VG, where there's no instancing. Too many people would show up, things start getting laggy, and crashing, etc. While I haven't played TBC for WoW, I believe the Battle for Mt Hyjal thing is a lot like what you describe, albeit in more of a pvp vein, with npcs thrown in for flavor. WAR sounds like it will have things like this as well, although also pvp oriented, rather than strictly pve. But then, we're tiptoeing into player made content which deserves a thread unto itself. Though, usually, when I think of Player Made content, I automatically think of Second Life, and I just get scared, and have to take a shower to was the dirty feeling off.
I would like to see more one of a kind quests which have an impact on the world itself, a la the Sleeper in EQ. Though, with better scripting, and a more random nature, rather than as purely end game scenarios. Say you stumble on a small hamlet tucked away in a remote valley. The village elders plead with you, and/or your group, to protect them from the orcs that live in the surrounding hills/mountains. You can then agree to help the villagers, or you can choose to help the orcs, or even kill both. If you aid the village, you then could have to option of heading up to the orcs stronghold, and wiping them out, which would cause no orcs to spawn in that area anymore, and the village would grow in size to become a larger city, perhaps with a statue of you in the town square, or something. If you aid the orcs, the village is destroyed, and the orcs overrun the area, eventually building a temple to their bloodthirsty gods, and more, and stronger orcs begin spawning and slowly begin encroaching on other areas in the region. If you were to kill off both, it could go a couple ways, but I'd say, the natural order takes over, grassland grows back, with the normal flora and fauna coming back to the area, and just a ruins of a small farming village in a random valley. Perhaps rumors of the ruins of some farm that was slaughter by evil doers, and some things that go bump in the night spawning a bit down the road, eventually drawing a necromancer, vampire, lich or whatever that sets up shop in the orcs abandoned dwelling, and then the cycle starts over, just more organically than doing the village quest, kill the orcs, and 30 minutes later they respawn, and the next group comes along to do it all over again.
From there, you could even do other things, like having random orcs attack you in retaliation, or conversely, fleeing in terror from you. As word spreads of your deeds, you are viewed differently across the whole world, rather than just gettting 10 points of faction with the nearest large town.
Granted, I don't know that we're quite there, tech wise. Nor do I know how the average player would respond to a system like that. Obviously, you'd have to have plenty of static content as well, otherwise, you'd have to spend a fortune on a live team that was contantly monitoring the world, and adding new things in for the players to do. It'd work well in a niche game, but in something like WoW, it'd be a really bad idea.
I'd also like to see more quest rewards akin to the statue thing, rather than strictly item/cash/exp. But again, deserves it's own thread.
Here's the Truth:In Vanguard, the "Grind" is in your "Mind". Vanguard doesn't hand you a new quest everytime you finish another; you have to LOOK for some adventures. But let's make it clear, there are MORE then enough adevntures out there to Level. So please, for those beating the "Grind" horse to death out there, please move on. It just isn't true...
One of the best jokes I heard so far, nice one!
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself. I would really enjoy if you would look up the terminology for troll, then look up my post history and compare. I have posted dozens of arguments among my posts, you jumped to conclusions.
What do you thinks make you any better? Perhaps the fact that you jumped at my throat, not even giving any arguments in your reply to me?
Any game has issues! Every game has grind of some kind, and VG is absolutely no better than anything out on the market, read any professional review about it. I am not saying it has no appeal for a certain target audience, I am saying it has design shortcomings compared to what was promised.
And it would be psychologically healthier if the fans got over the mistakes the game has, aknowledge them, and try to make it better, being defensive does help you fight off those who dislike the game, however it does not look good in the eyes of those, who are initially neutral. Everyone knows a community can make or break a game, and how welcoming and tolerant a community is plays a big part.
I have read many posts on almost a dozen forums, where the community of vanguard was discussed, and a certain (perhaps 20ish) percentage said the reason they left VG was because of the community. Honestly, do you want to be on the same level WoW allegedly is on?
Now stop the personal attacks, as you have no idea who I am, or what level of cool I am, and as long as I respect you by not trying to discredit you, instead I try to argument, I demand the same respect.
The fact that I disagree about VG with you, doesn't mean we have to fight over it, losing our dignity.
He's not lying when he said the content is repetitive. It is. There is no variation in the quests, they're really unimaginative. And yes, to the OP, there's plenty of adventures to go on in VG, but its too bad they're all exactly the same: kill x number of creatures and be an errandy boy quests, only a different piece of scenery every now and then. It's boring and its old and simply not good enough for a game that promised to really get on top of the pack.
Now this is a nice reply. I can agree with you to some point here. I don't consider them as wildly unimaginative as you. I really view them as the same stuff you would find in most MMO's, though I have come across some really fun ones.
My only real purpose was to derail the condescending, know-it-all, retard random. He's so cool on the internet.
There are plenty of imaginative quests in this game...the only r-tards that are whineing about the grind and the same dim bulbs that dont read the mission info in COH, blow through them as quickly as possible, then whinge cuz there is no content...come back to me when you are 'forced' to clear the same dungon 37 times to level up, then you can bitch (GUK anyone?)...until then, learn what the word grind means please?
Name some imaginative quests then please? All I remember, running around Khal in Qualia, was kill x number of scorpions...kill x number of rat people...kill x number hyenas...kill x number of desert bandits....kill x number of lions, fireflies and crocs while you're at it too cause that's all there is to do! Oh and deliver this letter to my friend a few miles away....That's it. I know its the same as every MMORPG out there already...but this is supposed to be the almighty Vanguard that promised to be way greater then anything else out there, a "3rd gen MMORPG."
And no, not all of us complaining blow through the content a.s.a.p. I read every word of those quests, trying to ignore the most embrassing voice acting in existence while I'm at it (Vulmane voices, anyone? Were they so drunk they hired Jar-Jar Binks?) and taking my sweet time with everything.
So, you were about level 12? You judge all the quests in a game based on the few lowbie quests surrounding one small city on one continent? Which happens to be the most unfinished of the 3 continents...
Last night I did a quest that was pretty interesting. Out of Veshkal's Exchange, on Thestra. You get sent to a nearby cave full of spiders. First you have to kill "kain widows" until you get 10 fangs. Pretty standard. After you turn that in, you have to go back and get bitten by another type of spider. In between the time you are bitten and when you turn in this phase of the quest, baby ettercaps spawn from your body periodically and attack you. Then you turn in that part and get cured. Then you have to go back and put some experimental potion on some spider eggs. You take the results of that back to the quest giver and are sent for the final part. Putting a revised version of the potion on the Spider Queen. Which kills her and spawns 4 baby queens. Then you find out the person you were working for was actually evil and you've helped her with some evil plot. You then kill her and finish the quest. Pretty standard for the most part, but I found it interesing and fun. There's only so much you can do with a game. Dynamic content would be great. But that's a little unrealistic at this stage of technology.
Here's the Truth:In Vanguard, the "Grind" is in your "Mind". Vanguard doesn't hand you a new quest everytime you finish another; you have to LOOK for some adventures. But let's make it clear, there are MORE then enough adevntures out there to Level. So please, for those beating the "Grind" horse to death out there, please move on. It just isn't true...
One of the best jokes I heard so far, nice one!
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.He's not lying when he said the content is repetitive. It is. There is no variation in the quests, they're really unimaginative. And yes, to the OP, there's plenty of adventures to go on in VG, but its too bad they're all exactly the same: kill x number of creatures and be an errandy boy quests, only a different piece of scenery every now and then. It's boring and its old and simply not good enough for a game that promised to really get on top of the pack.
THIS is a legitimate arguement, although I would strongly disagree. The quests are extreamly varied, considering the limits of a modern game. For example, many quests have surpising steps, twists & turns. There are however just as many Kill, Rinse Repeat options as well, but I personally have done VERY few of them when I had the option. They are there though, but that is far from the majority of quests.
SPOILER ALERT:
One Dugeon for example takes place around a shipwreck. You are sent there to kill the undead sailors that are terrorizing the nearby settlement. If you are lucky, you will loot a ship's logbook. If you chose to review the Log Book, then ask the Local Settlement about it, you are sent to a Sailor in a town down the road. There, a Sailor eplains what happened to the ship, and suggest if you kill the Undead Captian, the Curse may end. So, you fight your way to the Captian (there are other quests in the ship as well) and when you get to him you can choose to listen to his tale or not. IF you listen, he tells you the story of the wreck from a new perspective and explains the ship wrecked on top of the entrence to an ancient Temple. He goes on to say he was bewitched when he wreck the ship, and the cause where 4 Dimensional Gates in the Temple, and the Temples Guardian. You can then choose if you would like to kill him or close the Gates and kill the Guardian. If you choose the later, you fight your way to each Gate through summoned beasts & the Undead and close each Gate, then face the Guardian and his minions. Once done, you can choose to release the Undead Sailors, or Curse them. Besides this questline, there are 3-4 others for the same Dungeon. There are HUNDREDS like this.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
He's not lying when he said the content is repetitive. It is. There is no variation in the quests, they're really unimaginative. And yes, to the OP, there's plenty of adventures to go on in VG, but its too bad they're all exactly the same: kill x number of creatures and be an errandy boy quests, only a different piece of scenery every now and then. It's boring and its old and simply not good enough for a game that promised to really get on top of the pack.
Now this is a nice reply. I can agree with you to some point here. I don't consider them as wildly unimaginative as you. I really view them as the same stuff you would find in most MMO's, though I have come across some really fun ones.
My only real purpose was to derail the condescending, know-it-all, retard random. He's so cool on the internet.
There are plenty of imaginative quests in this game...the only r-tards that are whineing about the grind and the same dim bulbs that dont read the mission info in COH, blow through them as quickly as possible, then whinge cuz there is no content...come back to me when you are 'forced' to clear the same dungon 37 times to level up, then you can bitch (GUK anyone?)...until then, learn what the word grind means please?
Name some imaginative quests then please? All I remember, running around Khal in Qualia, was kill x number of scorpions...kill x number of rat people...kill x number hyenas...kill x number of desert bandits....kill x number of lions, fireflies and crocs while you're at it too cause that's all there is to do! Oh and deliver this letter to my friend a few miles away....That's it. I know its the same as every MMORPG out there already...but this is supposed to be the almighty Vanguard that promised to be way greater then anything else out there, a "3rd gen MMORPG."
And no, not all of us complaining blow through the content a.s.a.p. I read every word of those quests, trying to ignore the most embrassing voice acting in existence while I'm at it (Vulmane voices, anyone? Were they so drunk they hired Jar-Jar Binks?) and taking my sweet time with everything.
So, you were about level 12? You judge all the quests in a game based on the few lowbie quests surrounding one small city on one continent? Which happens to be the most unfinished of the 3 continents...
Last night I did a quest that was pretty interesting. Out of Veshkal's Exchange, on Thestra. You get sent to a nearby cave full of spiders. First you have to kill "kain widows" until you get 10 fangs. Pretty standard. After you turn that in, you have to go back and get bitten by another type of spider. In between the time you are bitten and when you turn in this phase of the quest, baby ettercaps spawn from your body periodically and attack you. Then you turn in that part and get cured. Then you have to go back and put some experimental potion on some spider eggs. You take the results of that back to the quest giver and are sent for the final part. Putting a revised version of the potion on the Spider Queen. Which kills her and spawns 4 baby queens. Then you find out the person you were working for was actually evil and you've helped her with some evil plot. You then kill her and finish the quest. Pretty standard for the most part, but I found it interesing and fun. There's only so much you can do with a game. Dynamic content would be great. But that's a little unrealistic at this stage of technology.
My highest was a 15. And yes I judge a game by its first impressions, they're important. Give people a crappy impression and they'll have a hell of a hard time trying to rub it out right? I also had a Thestrian druid, lvl 12, I didn't find the quests any better honestly. Greener scenery same boring stuff. It's nice to know there seems to be a few interesting quests, like this spider one you mentioned, but I have no idea how long I have to wait to get them. Perhaps all the "good" quests start at 20, as people are telling me. But I shouldn't need to drag myself through tedium to experience the game's better parts. The excitement needs to start from lvl 1, isn't that fair?
THIS is a legitimate arguement, although I would strongly disagree. The quests are extreamly varied, considering the limits of a modern game. For example, many quests have surpising steps, twists & turns. There are however just as many Kill, Rinse Repeat options as well, but I personally have done VERY few of them when I had the option. They are there though, but that is far from the majority of quests. SPOILER ALERT: One Dugeon for example takes place around a shipwreck. You are sent there to kill the undead sailors that are terrorizing the nearby settlement. If you are lucky, you will loot a ship's logbook. If you chose to review the Log Book, then ask the Local Settlement about it, you are sent to a Sailor in a town down the road. There, a Sailor eplains what happened to the ship, and suggest if you kill the Undead Captian, the Curse may end. So, you fight your way to the Captian (there are other quests in the ship as well) and when you get to him you can choose to listen to his tale or not. IF you listen, he tells you the story of the wreck from a new perspective and explains the ship wrecked on top of the entrence to an ancient Temple. He goes on to say he was bewitched when he wreck the ship, and the cause where 4 Dimensional Gates in the Temple, and the Temples Guardian. You can then choose if you would like to kill him or close the Gates and kill the Guardian. If you choose the later, you fight your way to each Gate through summoned beasts & the Undead and close each Gate, then face the Guardian and his minions. Once done, you can choose to release the Undead Sailors, or Curse them. Besides this questline, there are 3-4 others for the same Dungeon. There are HUNDREDS like this.
Finally... someone will enough experience in this game to made a good post to slap the pessimistic crowd on the hands.
E8400@ 4.0Ghz ~ Saphire HD 4870 ~ 6GB DDR2@ 860MhZ
Here's the Truth:In Vanguard, the "Grind" is in your "Mind". Vanguard doesn't hand you a new quest everytime you finish another; you have to LOOK for some adventures. But let's make it clear, there are MORE then enough adevntures out there to Level. So please, for those beating the "Grind" horse to death out there, please move on. It just isn't true...
One of the best jokes I heard so far, nice one!
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.I would really enjoy if you would look up the terminology for troll, then look up my post history and compare. I have posted dozens of arguments among my posts, you jumped to conclusions.
What do you thinks make you any better? Perhaps the fact that you jumped at my throat, not even giving any arguments in your reply to me?
Any game has issues! Every game has grind of some kind, and VG is absolutely no better than anything out on the market, read any professional review about it. I am not saying it has no appeal for a certain target audience, I am saying it has design shortcomings compared to what was promised.
And it would be psychologically healthier if the fans got over the mistakes the game has, aknowledge them, and try to make it better, being defensive does help you fight off those who dislike the game, however it does not look good in the eyes of those, who are initially neutral. Everyone knows a community can make or break a game, and how welcoming and tolerant a community is plays a big part.
I have read many posts on almost a dozen forums, where the community of vanguard was discussed, and a certain (perhaps 20ish) percentage said the reason they left VG was because of the community. Honestly, do you want to be on the same level WoW allegedly is on?
Now stop the personal attacks, as you have no idea who I am, or what level of cool I am, and as long as I respect you by not trying to discredit you, instead I try to argument, I demand the same respect.
The fact that I disagree about VG with you, doesn't mean we have to fight over it, losing our dignity.
I'm not concerned with your posting history, you showed your true colors in the post I quoted above. Are you going to sit here and tell me that you didn't try to discredit MX13s by taking a shot at his intelligence? "Now go help out your damsel in distress" nice job small guy, way to show how smart and witty you are on the internet.
You really outdid yourself with the latest reply though. Those sweeping generalizations and holier than thou attitude really showed me the light. BTW You would need to have some dignity before we could fight over it pal.
Edit* I feel compelled to comment further before you taint this forum with any more misinformation. I read through your posting history, you are an X beta player. So how is Vanguard comming along? Oh wait, you wouldn't know.. which means you have zero credibility. It's amazing how much you have been commenting on the state of the game considering you dont play it... hmmmm. I guess I should be worried about those who are neutral, considering I am currently playing, my opinion pales in comparison to yours...
I had to laugh at your statistics that mean absolutely nothing. You guess 20%... hahahahahahahaha, nice, all that playtime of the forums would give you a better understanding of the community then someone who..... I don't know.. plays the game. I mean dozens of random, unnamed, forums really gives you the data you need to make such an amazing calculation. Gosh I could go on and on. I think you have been taking notes from those "Loose Change" conspiracy theoriest films. It's amazing what you can do when you just make stuff up.
The key in enjoying it though is to not focus on doing as much as you can in the minimal amount of time, and just explore a bit. If you race to the top of whatever you're trying to do, Vanguard will come off as a grind.
Sadly, my whole ideaology about all MMOs is that no matter how much they try and convince me the game is about the 'journey', I know in a year or two's time less than half the population is going to be level 1-49, and the rest 50. So I might aswell get there and stop wasting my time sightseeing.
If you have that kind of attitude, as I do, as a lot of people do, then yeah it's a grind...
QFT!
This is by far the MOST sensible outlook to MMOing I have ever seen.
Every MMO requires you to grind somthing. It's a matter of how you aproach it and finding an MMO that you don't mind grinding at.
Every game has its own "Grind" some people call it , but sticking to a painfully boring "GRIND" in Vanguard is only limited to by the inability to think outside the stereo type box of WOW and other quickly "Grinded" MMOS. Large amounts of players that BITCH about this have only played the WOW type games that require less time and challenge for reward. TO make a comment on a game so new that its major flaw is grinding is complete and untter ignorance and laziness on the part of the player. There is no "grind" in Vanguard if you can get back to the basic idea that it is a game that you make the most of for yourself. If you want to be bored senceless sure try soloing to level it can be done , but this would be "GRINDING". When you enter Vanguard you do not think to yourself where can I go and bore myself into complaining on a forum, you think of what a big freakin world I am sure there is lots of adventure out there if I got off my lazy rump and explored it( this would be a player with a brain that has doesn't want a fast reward for next to no effort ) This is the point all you people bitching about Grinding miss , since your so used to haven your lvling handed to you on a silver platter IE WOW ( which I played and like for a time ). The idea is of actually that your in a massive unexplored world filled with lots to see and learn and to do this you need to move around, yes yes I know no griffin to fly you accross the world poor poor you , your gonna have to go out and get around on your own with what you have gained so far whether that is on foot , or on a mount is up to you and your courage to go beyond your starting location. There are many many quests to teach you about your new enviornment and to lead you to more interesting areas to do more questing. Now questing can also be called grinding I guess as I know you WOW fanbois are gonna go off on that too. When questing though you are not killing the same damn mob over and over again like WOW new expansion one of the first quests you do is kill boar again at lvl 60??? wth??? Wow had it's day for alot of people that went to Vanguard but that is our point we like the difficulty, the need to go out and see more of where you are , to have to go looking for adventure , we are tired of have it hand fed to us in games like WOW. I do not say WOW is a bad game , quite to the contrary I am just done with it and games like it.
now gcomes the pause while I wait for some jag off WOW fanboi to go off ......prove me wrong just keep the insults to yourself ...
VANGUARD ROCKS I LOVE IT SOOO MUCH FUN GOOD WORK SIGIL , thought you got some bugs to work out yet
Basically, you're limited by the technology itself. There's only so many cpu cycles to go around, and sadly, AI is at the shallow end of the pool as far as who gets what. Hell, it's a miracle these games work at all. But honestly, even if you had some sort of quantum crystal matrix alien tech cpu that afforded you unlimited cpu cycles to play with, just how different do you think the quests would be? Really, there's only so much you can do. Lord of the Rings is pretty high on everyones fantasy book list, but if you boil it all down, it's just an overlong FedEx quest. At the end of the day, once you strip away all the fancy dialogue, any quest is going to just be FedEx, Kill X of Y, Collect X of Y(killing Z for Y optional), Escort NPC. Now there are variations on those. The Go talk to NPC is just a variation on the FedEx, just you aren't taking up an item slot(s). And the Bring me the head/horn/arm of Random Bad Guy, is just a Kill X of Y with a FedEx element. And those cover every single quest I've ever done in an MMO, or even a single player RPG, really. Even in my PnP days, all the quests I remember, be they made up by the DM, or from premade modules, the quests were the same thing, even without the limitations of a PC, or keeping 50k+ people happy. Hell, sometimes, there wasn't even a quest involved. Sometimes we just went out to some dungeon, killed the baddies, for loot and xp. You know, grinding...
The main limitation is the imagination of the Developers. They really just all copying each other these days. Leveling, classes, blah, blah there's so much stagnation in the MMORPG industry it just makes me want to puke. They could have some pretty interesting stuff you know- like Guild Wars or like you would see in a rpg like final fantasy. The bottom line is that it simply takes the Developers too long to develop quests thus we end up with simple little quests my 9 yr old daughter can write. just easier to spit those out hell u can even generate those type of kill x & errand quests. It probably wont get any better until we see MMOs move towards player driven worlds whereas your quests comes from players and more player interaction is involved. for instance, maybe a lowbie needs to hire an escourt through some dangerous forest. How about some merchant needs to hire a smuggler to transport some goods across enemy lines. Are how bout getting a quest from a quest giver and perhaps there is a chance a bandit (PKer) jumps you, takes the item, and delivers it to the quest giver.
Developers simply cant keep up with the demand of players. You guys burn through content way faster than they can make them. Look at Gears of War my bro and I beat that overnight. that game took Epic years to make I'm sure. We wont see MMOs overcome this obstacle until they figure out a way to get players to drive the content or better ways to generate the quests somehow (have a smart AI that can generate fresh new quests).
Basically, you're limited by the technology itself. There's only so many cpu cycles to go around, and sadly, AI is at the shallow end of the pool as far as who gets what. Hell, it's a miracle these games work at all.
But honestly, even if you had some sort of quantum crystal matrix alien tech cpu that afforded you unlimited cpu cycles to play with, just how different do you think the quests would be?
Really, there's only so much you can do. Lord of the Rings is pretty high on everyones fantasy book list, but if you boil it all down, it's just an overlong FedEx quest. At the end of the day, once you strip away all the fancy dialogue, any quest is going to just be FedEx, Kill X of Y, Collect X of Y(killing Z for Y optional), Escort NPC. Now there are variations on those. The Go talk to NPC is just a variation on the FedEx, just you aren't taking up an item slot(s). And the Bring me the head/horn/arm of Random Bad Guy, is just a Kill X of Y with a FedEx element. And those cover every single quest I've ever done in an MMO, or even a single player RPG, really. Even in my PnP days, all the quests I remember, be they made up by the DM, or from premade modules, the quests were the same thing, even without the limitations of a PC, or keeping 50k+ people happy. Hell, sometimes, there wasn't even a quest involved. Sometimes we just went out to some dungeon, killed the baddies, for loot and xp. You know, grinding...
You have a point but...why not something slightly more...dramatic? Eg. A player-made base where the quest is to fight back the hoardes of minions trying to overtake it, where your skill in your class and skill in stragety is critical, where you might need the help of others too. That's exciting. I guess I'm asking for more dramatic, dynamic, interesting, fresh ways to present those quest archetypes you've described. VG doesn't have this its identical quest after quest...go to an area and a number of creatures and come back.
Yeah, your example would be pretty cool, and I agree that the devs, of any game, not just VG, would be better off hiring a screenwriter, or some other professional writer to do quest dialogue.
Mostly, I think it boils down to money, whether it being the cost of hiring a pro writer, or developer costs in time, money, and system impact. To use your example, it would be cool, it's certainly technically feasible, though I think it would cause issues in a game like VG, where there's no instancing. Too many people would show up, things start getting laggy, and crashing, etc. While I haven't played TBC for WoW, I believe the Battle for Mt Hyjal thing is a lot like what you describe, albeit in more of a pvp vein, with npcs thrown in for flavor. WAR sounds like it will have things like this as well, although also pvp oriented, rather than strictly pve. But then, we're tiptoeing into player made content which deserves a thread unto itself. Though, usually, when I think of Player Made content, I automatically think of Second Life, and I just get scared, and have to take a shower to was the dirty feeling off.
I would like to see more one of a kind quests which have an impact on the world itself, a la the Sleeper in EQ. Though, with better scripting, and a more random nature, rather than as purely end game scenarios. Say you stumble on a small hamlet tucked away in a remote valley. The village elders plead with you, and/or your group, to protect them from the orcs that live in the surrounding hills/mountains. You can then agree to help the villagers, or you can choose to help the orcs, or even kill both. If you aid the village, you then could have to option of heading up to the orcs stronghold, and wiping them out, which would cause no orcs to spawn in that area anymore, and the village would grow in size to become a larger city, perhaps with a statue of you in the town square, or something. If you aid the orcs, the village is destroyed, and the orcs overrun the area, eventually building a temple to their bloodthirsty gods, and more, and stronger orcs begin spawning and slowly begin encroaching on other areas in the region. If you were to kill off both, it could go a couple ways, but I'd say, the natural order takes over, grassland grows back, with the normal flora and fauna coming back to the area, and just a ruins of a small farming village in a random valley. Perhaps rumors of the ruins of some farm that was slaughter by evil doers, and some things that go bump in the night spawning a bit down the road, eventually drawing a necromancer, vampire, lich or whatever that sets up shop in the orcs abandoned dwelling, and then the cycle starts over, just more organically than doing the village quest, kill the orcs, and 30 minutes later they respawn, and the next group comes along to do it all over again.
From there, you could even do other things, like having random orcs attack you in retaliation, or conversely, fleeing in terror from you. As word spreads of your deeds, you are viewed differently across the whole world, rather than just gettting 10 points of faction with the nearest large town.
Granted, I don't know that we're quite there, tech wise. Nor do I know how the average player would respond to a system like that. Obviously, you'd have to have plenty of static content as well, otherwise, you'd have to spend a fortune on a live team that was contantly monitoring the world, and adding new things in for the players to do. It'd work well in a niche game, but in something like WoW, it'd be a really bad idea.
I'd also like to see more quest rewards akin to the statue thing, rather than strictly item/cash/exp. But again, deserves it's own thread.
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.
Another vanboi who is utterly mindless and feels he has to personally attack anyone who disagrees that his precious little vanguard has no flaws.Oh please don't call me a vanboi, you'll hurt my feelings over the internet. The irony of calling me utterly mindless with an utterly mindless term such as vanboi is priceless.
Here's the Truth:In Vanguard, the "Grind" is in your "Mind". Vanguard doesn't hand you a new quest everytime you finish another; you have to LOOK for some adventures. But let's make it clear, there are MORE then enough adevntures out there to Level. So please, for those beating the "Grind" horse to death out there, please move on. It just isn't true...
One of the best jokes I heard so far, nice one!
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.I would really enjoy if you would look up the terminology for troll, then look up my post history and compare. I have posted dozens of arguments among my posts, you jumped to conclusions.
What do you thinks make you any better? Perhaps the fact that you jumped at my throat, not even giving any arguments in your reply to me?
Any game has issues! Every game has grind of some kind, and VG is absolutely no better than anything out on the market, read any professional review about it. I am not saying it has no appeal for a certain target audience, I am saying it has design shortcomings compared to what was promised.
And it would be psychologically healthier if the fans got over the mistakes the game has, aknowledge them, and try to make it better, being defensive does help you fight off those who dislike the game, however it does not look good in the eyes of those, who are initially neutral. Everyone knows a community can make or break a game, and how welcoming and tolerant a community is plays a big part.
I have read many posts on almost a dozen forums, where the community of vanguard was discussed, and a certain (perhaps 20ish) percentage said the reason they left VG was because of the community. Honestly, do you want to be on the same level WoW allegedly is on?
Now stop the personal attacks, as you have no idea who I am, or what level of cool I am, and as long as I respect you by not trying to discredit you, instead I try to argument, I demand the same respect.
The fact that I disagree about VG with you, doesn't mean we have to fight over it, losing our dignity.
I'm not concerned with your posting history, you showed your true colors in the post I quoted above. Are you going to sit here and tell me that you didn't try to discredit MX13s by taking a shot at his intelligence? "Now go help out your damsel in distress" nice job small guy, way to show how smart and witty you are on the internet.
You really outdid yourself with the latest reply though. Those sweeping generalizations and holier than thou attitude really showed me the light. BTW You would need to have some dignity before we could fight over it pal.
Edit* I feel compelled to comment further before you taint this forum with any more misinformation. I read through your posting history, you are an X beta player. So how is Vanguard comming along? Oh wait, you wouldn't know.. which means you have zero credibility. It's amazing how much you have been commenting on the state of the game considering you dont play it... hmmmm. I guess I should be worried about those who are neutral, considering I am currently playing, my opinion pales in comparison to yours...
I had to laugh at your statistics that mean absolutely nothing. You guess 20%... hahahahahahahaha, nice, all that playtime of the forums would give you a better understanding of the community then someone who..... I don't know.. plays the game. I mean dozens of random, unnamed, forums really gives you the data you need to make such an amazing calculation. Gosh I could go on and on. I think you have been taking notes from those "Loose Change" conspiracy theoriest films. It's amazing what you can do when you just make stuff up.
Like a said... get over yourself.
Well, don't say I didn't try to be civil!
So, just so you have it cleared up, are you or are you not concerned with my posting history?
All you rant about is my person, and yet again you have brought no arguments to the table, other than my credibility, which I will sort out in a moment. The go help the damsel in distress was a joke, thus the smiley just in case, as he was waiting for a female player to help her. Please, skip over the "small guy" kind of intimidating namecalling, I am unaffected, and if that's the best you can bring on, well then I am forced to think you have an ego issue. No need to post things like "X Y, over the internet", I am here, you are here, makes us the same, since we both use the same medium to communicate.
The state of the game: My comments about the game have been about the community, the engine, the visuals, the mechanics, the quests, 3rd gen, Brad. I'll take them one by one.
Community : although a lot more players have joined after release, the hard core, the long time fans remained the same, as they have been in beta. The blind fan people will never change, and they are here to stay, so I might as well talk about them.
The engine: since I know from a professional point of view what the unreal engine is about, I can comment as I please, since they haven't changed that since beta. They didn't improve the model/skin ratio, they still have very unefficient code etc. My friend's company has a license on the unreal engine, and we showed me a few of the works, so I know first hand what that engine is capable of. So when I say that Sigil designers and programmers are amateur, I know why.
The visuals: I bet they didn't change a lot of things since beta, since it would be a lot of work. By the visuals I don't only mean landing in the uncanny valley, I mean the harmony of the world, I mean how well buildings blend in with the atmosphere. And the sorry state of the game in this department is, that there is no art direction. With a good art direction and half the polygons they could have achieved a lot lot more.
The mechanics: I have a personal opinion about the combat mechanics, in short: I dislike it, and find it to be exactly as EQ. But this is a matter of taste, so I won't go in detail, but this changed nothing since beta, so I may comment, as it is a concept.
Quests: Repetitive, very repetitive. Not more than other games out there, but that doesn't change the fact, that a real 3rd gen game would need a lot more flavor. I could also talk about the decision to make a game without instances, which I think was another mistake. Did they change anything since beta? No.
3rd gen: This is an opinion compiled of all the above, since the above didn't change since beta, I still consider this game 2nd gen. This is not a bad thing, as this was obviously the way they wanted this game to go, but instead they advertised as a 3rd gen game. Did this change since beta? No.
Brad: okay, this man will never change. In my humble opinion, he is better than most developers with his social skills, but I doubt his talent. Among the MMO designers, I consider him mediocre, no better than the next guy, but he has a huge mouth, and likes to bash, that's all.
What I haven't talked about is bugs, and I will never do, since I no longer know anything about that. The only things I did talk about, are things that didn't change since beta (And I can talk about how polished the game was at launch, as long as I don't talk about how it is today, but luckily others state the truth about it anyway). So if you want to discredit me, then prove that things I talked about changed since beta, up until that point you are doing nothing but personal attacks, like your previous posts about me.
The conspiracy: Interesting that you would bring up conspiracy with my name, I am the one who says there is no conspiracy. I even compiled a lot of the blind fan statements in to one sarcastic thread, you can see there about the conspiracy ).
In short: Sigil is to blame/congratulate for VG. SOE had nothing to do with it, unreal engine definetly isn't the fault, and WoW players don't care.
If you decide to reply, please make it a worthy one, by arguing, thank you!
It would be unfair to call Vanguard "grind". In actuality, it is far worse than grind! There are some succesful MMOs out there in which grind can even be fun. Unfortunately in Vanguard, combat, animations and battle dynamics are so utterly boring and uninspired that you feel like committing suicide.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
My highest was a 15. And yes I judge a game by its first impressions, they're important. Give people a crappy impression and they'll have a hell of a hard time trying to rub it out right? I also had a Thestrian druid, lvl 12, I didn't find the quests any better honestly. Greener scenery same boring stuff. It's nice to know there seems to be a few interesting quests, like this spider one you mentioned, but I have no idea how long I have to wait to get them. Perhaps all the "good" quests start at 20, as people are telling me. But I shouldn't need to drag myself through tedium to experience the game's better parts. The excitement needs to start from lvl 1, isn't that fair?
Yeah, that would be ideal. But typically, mmo's follow the old MUD ways, and the first few levels, 1-10 usually, are for learning the basics of the game. Movement, combat, etc. The spider quest has level 12-13 mobs. The last npc you kill is 15.
Here's the Truth:In Vanguard, the "Grind" is in your "Mind". Vanguard doesn't hand you a new quest everytime you finish another; you have to LOOK for some adventures. But let's make it clear, there are MORE then enough adevntures out there to Level. So please, for those beating the "Grind" horse to death out there, please move on. It just isn't true...
If the game is so great, why are you on the forum instead of playing.
Maybe at work or something, you kids wouldn't understand that.
Here's the Truth:In Vanguard, the "Grind" is in your "Mind". Vanguard doesn't hand you a new quest everytime you finish another; you have to LOOK for some adventures. But let's make it clear, there are MORE then enough adevntures out there to Level. So please, for those beating the "Grind" horse to death out there, please move on. It just isn't true...
If the game is so great, why are you on the forum instead of playing.
Maybe at work or something, you kids wouldn't understand that. This yet again is so typical. What do you feel when you chose to post something discrediting like this instead of arguments. You think people don't have a valid reason to post negative things about the game or it's community? Get real, this game is mediocre, which is not bad, since there is no groundbreaking MMO out there (yet). So drop the whole conspiracy, it's not kids nor WoW players who say the game has flaws, it's people of any kind of background/age, when a game receives this much hate, you must ask yourself "why?" instead of denial.
every MMO can be perceived to have a grind... a well designed MMO will make the grind "transparent' as you are having fun with the content, even if it is repetative.
that is why WoW is so popular, yes, it's a grindfest, but the core gameplay elements are there to make it an enjoyable experience so the "grind" factor of it becomes more transparent.
i really can't say how grind in VG feels, only played to level 11 in beta...
Here's the Truth:In Vanguard, the "Grind" is in your "Mind". Vanguard doesn't hand you a new quest everytime you finish another; you have to LOOK for some adventures. But let's make it clear, there are MORE then enough adevntures out there to Level. So please, for those beating the "Grind" horse to death out there, please move on. It just isn't true...
One of the best jokes I heard so far, nice one!
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.I would really enjoy if you would look up the terminology for troll, then look up my post history and compare. I have posted dozens of arguments among my posts, you jumped to conclusions.
What do you thinks make you any better? Perhaps the fact that you jumped at my throat, not even giving any arguments in your reply to me?
Any game has issues! Every game has grind of some kind, and VG is absolutely no better than anything out on the market, read any professional review about it. I am not saying it has no appeal for a certain target audience, I am saying it has design shortcomings compared to what was promised.
And it would be psychologically healthier if the fans got over the mistakes the game has, aknowledge them, and try to make it better, being defensive does help you fight off those who dislike the game, however it does not look good in the eyes of those, who are initially neutral. Everyone knows a community can make or break a game, and how welcoming and tolerant a community is plays a big part.
I have read many posts on almost a dozen forums, where the community of vanguard was discussed, and a certain (perhaps 20ish) percentage said the reason they left VG was because of the community. Honestly, do you want to be on the same level WoW allegedly is on?
Now stop the personal attacks, as you have no idea who I am, or what level of cool I am, and as long as I respect you by not trying to discredit you, instead I try to argument, I demand the same respect.
The fact that I disagree about VG with you, doesn't mean we have to fight over it, losing our dignity.
I'm not concerned with your posting history, you showed your true colors in the post I quoted above. Are you going to sit here and tell me that you didn't try to discredit MX13s by taking a shot at his intelligence? "Now go help out your damsel in distress" nice job small guy, way to show how smart and witty you are on the internet.
You really outdid yourself with the latest reply though. Those sweeping generalizations and holier than thou attitude really showed me the light. BTW You would need to have some dignity before we could fight over it pal.
Edit* I feel compelled to comment further before you taint this forum with any more misinformation. I read through your posting history, you are an X beta player. So how is Vanguard comming along? Oh wait, you wouldn't know.. which means you have zero credibility. It's amazing how much you have been commenting on the state of the game considering you dont play it... hmmmm. I guess I should be worried about those who are neutral, considering I am currently playing, my opinion pales in comparison to yours...
I had to laugh at your statistics that mean absolutely nothing. You guess 20%... hahahahahahahaha, nice, all that playtime of the forums would give you a better understanding of the community then someone who..... I don't know.. plays the game. I mean dozens of random, unnamed, forums really gives you the data you need to make such an amazing calculation. Gosh I could go on and on. I think you have been taking notes from those "Loose Change" conspiracy theoriest films. It's amazing what you can do when you just make stuff up.
Like a said... get over yourself.
Well, don't say I didn't try to be civil!
So, just so you have it cleared up, are you or are you not concerned with my posting history?
All you rant about is my person, and yet again you have brought no arguments to the table, other than my credibility, which I will sort out in a moment. The go help the damsel in distress was a joke, thus the smiley just in case, as he was waiting for a female player to help her. Please, skip over the "small guy" kind of intimidating namecalling, I am unaffected, and if that's the best you can bring on, well then I am forced to think you have an ego issue. No need to post things like "X Y, over the internet", I am here, you are here, makes us the same, since we both use the same medium to communicate.
The state of the game: My comments about the game have been about the community, the engine, the visuals, the mechanics, the quests, 3rd gen, Brad. I'll take them one by one.
Community : although a lot more players have joined after release, the hard core, the long time fans remained the same, as they have been in beta. The blind fan people will never change, and they are here to stay, so I might as well talk about them.
The engine: since I know from a professional point of view what the unreal engine is about, I can comment as I please, since they haven't changed that since beta. They didn't improve the model/skin ratio, they still have very unefficient code etc. My friend's company has a license on the unreal engine, and we showed me a few of the works, so I know first hand what that engine is capable of. So when I say that Sigil designers and programmers are amateur, I know why.
The visuals: I bet they didn't change a lot of things since beta, since it would be a lot of work. By the visuals I don't only mean landing in the uncanny valley, I mean the harmony of the world, I mean how well buildings blend in with the atmosphere. And the sorry state of the game in this department is, that there is no art direction. With a good art direction and half the polygons they could have achieved a lot lot more.
The mechanics: I have a personal opinion about the combat mechanics, in short: I dislike it, and find it to be exactly as EQ. But this is a matter of taste, so I won't go in detail, but this changed nothing since beta, so I may comment, as it is a concept.
Quests: Repetitive, very repetitive. Not more than other games out there, but that doesn't change the fact, that a real 3rd gen game would need a lot more flavor. I could also talk about the decision to make a game without instances, which I think was another mistake. Did they change anything since beta? No.
3rd gen: This is an opinion compiled of all the above, since the above didn't change since beta, I still consider this game 2nd gen. This is not a bad thing, as this was obviously the way they wanted this game to go, but instead they advertised as a 3rd gen game. Did this change since beta? No.
Brad: okay, this man will never change. In my humble opinion, he is better than most developers with his social skills, but I doubt his talent. Among the MMO designers, I consider him mediocre, no better than the next guy, but he has a huge mouth, and likes to bash, that's all.
What I haven't talked about is bugs, and I will never do, since I no longer know anything about that. The only things I did talk about, are things that didn't change since beta (And I can talk about how polished the game was at launch, as long as I don't talk about how it is today, but luckily others state the truth about it anyway). So if you want to discredit me, then prove that things I talked about changed since beta, up until that point you are doing nothing but personal attacks, like your previous posts about me.
The conspiracy: Interesting that you would bring up conspiracy with my name, I am the one who says there is no conspiracy. I even compiled a lot of the blind fan statements in to one sarcastic thread, you can see there about the conspiracy ).
In short: Sigil is to blame/congratulate for VG. SOE had nothing to do with it, unreal engine definetly isn't the fault, and WoW players don't care.
If you decide to reply, please make it a worthy one, by arguing, thank you!
Fine, I'll bite.
Community: Possibly one of the nicest IN GAME communities I've come across. These forums don't have any reflection on the community that is currently playing the game. I took a poll in /shout recently and the average age out of about twenty five responses was 24 years old. That is saying something. I was farming the verdant lurker camps recently and came away with about 20 pieces of nice set armor. I gave it all away for free, I could have sold it, but to see the gratitude and excitement of people getting their first nice pieces of armor was worth far more than virtual coin. Some people even came over and gave me free 10 slot bags. I get buffs without asking and return the favor, questions in general chat get answered, and people are just genuinely enjoying the game. I can say all of this with confidence, because I play the game.
The Engine: I'm going to blow your mind right now... I have to agree with you on this point. The UT engine is extremely efficient and it seems Vanguard isn't utilizing that at this point. However! The game runs MUCH better then it did on the last day of beta. I know its hard to believe considering it's sorry state pre-launch. There are many posts from people amazed at what a difference that week made. Though most of the credit should probably go to removal of the debugging code. Every patch thus far has made a difference as well. The game still suffers from some hitching, chunk loading, lag ect.. but to say these problems are anywhere near what they were in beta is laughable, and a bald-faced lie.
The Visuals: I don't think we will get very far here, this really is a matter of taste. To say there is NO art direction is a pretty presumptuous statement, and kind of makes you look silly. I enjoy what I have seen so far, reminds me of EQ. Some regions I've visited could use some touching up but making the run from Bordinairs Cleft to Taheans Vengence really opened my eyes to the size, scope, and beauty of the game.
The Mechanics: Again, a matter of taste. This is the updated playstyle I've been looking for since EQ. Thats really all I can say, it works for me.
Quests: I have not really found the quests to be repetitive, though not ground breaking either. I'm not sure what they could have done to really revolutionize this department. For me, this really isn't a big factor. I've gained most of my levels from simply looking for interesting places on the map and going there to explore. Finding new challenging dungeons, pushing me and my friends abilities to the limit. I can see how this would be a disappointment to you and others who enjoy questing.
3rd Gen: I will concede this point to you. Though looking at the size and scope of what they are trying to pull off, can we compromise... say 2nd and 1/2 gen?
Brad Mac: I never really got caught up in all this Brad/Messiah nonsense. I think he made the best game I've ever played with EQ, and another game I'm really enjoying with VG. I guess you could say his track record FOR ME... speaks for itself.
As far as bugs go the only one I ever encounter is the old disappearing mob trick. Once this one is squashed I really don't have anything to say. I just don't encounter all these bugs I see flamed about on this board. The fact that it's taking so long is irritating but I can deal.
The problem I have with your posts has nothing to do with VG. It's your semantic tone. You belittled the original poster for experessing a view about a game you dont even play. I could make a blind hate compilation conspiracy thread twice the size of your so called "blind fan" thread. That door swings both ways pal, you know less about this game as a critic that doesn't play then a "blind fan" who does. So seriously.................. get over yourself.
THIS is a legitimate arguement, although I would strongly disagree. The quests are extreamly varied, considering the limits of a modern game. For example, many quests have surpising steps, twists & turns. There are however just as many Kill, Rinse Repeat options as well, but I personally have done VERY few of them when I had the option. They are there though, but that is far from the majority of quests. SPOILER ALERT: One Dugeon for example takes place around a shipwreck. You are sent there to kill the undead sailors that are terrorizing the nearby settlement. If you are lucky, you will loot a ship's logbook. If you chose to review the Log Book, then ask the Local Settlement about it, you are sent to a Sailor in a town down the road. There, a Sailor eplains what happened to the ship, and suggest if you kill the Undead Captian, the Curse may end. So, you fight your way to the Captian (there are other quests in the ship as well) and when you get to him you can choose to listen to his tale or not. IF you listen, he tells you the story of the wreck from a new perspective and explains the ship wrecked on top of the entrence to an ancient Temple. He goes on to say he was bewitched when he wreck the ship, and the cause where 4 Dimensional Gates in the Temple, and the Temples Guardian. You can then choose if you would like to kill him or close the Gates and kill the Guardian. If you choose the later, you fight your way to each Gate through summoned beasts & the Undead and close each Gate, then face the Guardian and his minions. Once done, you can choose to release the Undead Sailors, or Curse them. Besides this questline, there are 3-4 others for the same Dungeon. There are HUNDREDS like this.
Finally... someone will enough experience in this game to made a good post to slap the pessimistic crowd on the hands.
the description of this quest line makes me want to play this game even more. explain to me how that quest is a "fedex" quest, or a "kill 300 of these" quest? everyone seems to think those are the only types of quests. lol.
Community: Possibly one of the nicest IN GAME communities I've come across. These forums don't have any reflection on the community that is currently playing the game. I took a poll in /shout recently and the average age out of about twenty five responses was 24 years old. That is saying something. I was farming the verdant lurker camps recently and came away with about 20 pieces of nice set armor. I gave it all away for free, I could have sold it, but to see the gratitude and excitement of people getting their first nice pieces of armor was worth far more than virtual coin. Some people even came over and gave me free 10 slot bags. I get buffs without asking and return the favor, questions in general chat get answered, and people are just genuinely enjoying the game. I can say all of this with confidence, because I play the game.
I am not surprized that you like the community, since you like and know the game. Like I said the hard fanatic core remained since beta, this is 100% sure. Also they are the ones advancing fastest, so these people, that most call "elitist pricks" are now in the higher level zones ... sorry, chunks. When they were lower level and in beta they ripped apart many people, who only had questions. Even I have my sorry ass tale about them, might want to read up on it. Also check out what Breezer thought about the whole community situation, you can find his post on silky venom.
When in a mature enviroment, you will most probably find kids lying about their age, or not even responding, so your average doesn't mean much. Furthermore, maturity is a tricky thing. You see I believe you have to be of a certain age to be mature, but that is not the only requirement, meaning you might be as mature as a 11 year old, even if you are 30. In fact, the more isolated you are, the more of a nuisance you might be, long time "hardcore" players are often as immature as wow kids, only that they happen to think they are not, which is pathetic.
Don't take my word for it, check out the forums, it is no coincidence (nor conspiracy) that so many people think the community on some servers are a problem.
The Engine: I'm going to blow your mind right now... I have to agree with you on this point. The UT engine is extremely efficient and it seems Vanguard isn't utilizing that at this point. However! The game runs MUCH better then it did on the last day of beta. I know its hard to believe considering it's sorry state pre-launch. There are many posts from people amazed at what a difference that week made. Though most of the credit should probably go to removal of the debugging code. Every patch thus far has made a difference as well. The game still suffers from some hitching, chunk loading, lag ect.. but to say these problems are anywhere near what they were in beta is laughable, and a bald-faced lie.
They made design flaws with the engine, something that can't be fixed easily. These flaws are related to model/skin ratio, that eat up a lot of ram. This can be tweaked, but not fixed. Only time shall make this go away with better graphics cards. Before you call me a liar, better get things straight in the technical department.
The Visuals: I don't think we will get very far here, this really is a matter of taste. To say there is NO art direction is a pretty presumptuous statement, and kind of makes you look silly. I enjoy what I have seen so far, reminds me of EQ. Some regions I've visited could use some touching up but making the run from Bordinairs Cleft to Taheans Vengence really opened my eyes to the size, scope, and beauty of the game.
I still am on the opinion that they tried realism, and fell in the uncanny valley. With half the polygons, but a better art direction they could have done a lot more. Furthermore, the larger the game space, the less are the handcrafted enviroments.
The Mechanics: Again, a matter of taste. This is the updated playstyle I've been looking for since EQ. Thats really all I can say, it works for me.
All I can say is Brad promised a lot of innovation in the combat department. All that became true was what he said about the bard song. But let's leave it at taste.
Quests: I have not really found the quests to be repetitive, though not ground breaking either. I'm not sure what they could have done to really revolutionize this department. For me, this really isn't a big factor. I've gained most of my levels from simply looking for interesting places on the map and going there to explore. Finding new challenging dungeons, pushing me and my friends abilities to the limit. I can see how this would be a disappointment to you and others who enjoy questing.
This is the main reason I played DDO, and as long as it lasted, those dungeons were the best out there. I want to level on quests not mob killing, but that's just me.
3rd Gen: I will concede this point to you. Though looking at the size and scope of what they are trying to pull off, can we compromise... say 2nd and 1/2 gen?
I don't care what they are trying, I only care what they did so far. And that is second gen. I have several posts on this, don't like repeating myself, some of them are quite recent, you might have seen them.
Brad Mac: I never really got caught up in all this Brad/Messiah nonsense. I think he made the best game I've ever played with EQ, and another game I'm really enjoying with VG. I guess you could say his track record FOR ME... speaks for itself.
Fair enough, for me he's just some mediocre guy, with one good game under his belt.
As far as bugs go the only one I ever encounter is the old disappearing mob trick. Once this one is squashed I really don't have anything to say. I just don't encounter all these bugs I see flamed about on this board. The fact that it's taking so long is irritating but I can deal.
Like I said before I don't comment on this part.
The problem I have with your posts has nothing to do with VG. It's your semantic tone. You belittled the original poster for experessing a view about a game you dont even play. I could make a blind hate compilation conspiracy thread twice the size of your so called "blind fan" thread. That door swings both ways pal, you know less about this game as a critic that doesn't play then a "blind fan" who does. So seriously.................. get over yourself.
Stop telling anyone to get over him/herself, as long as you post things like "verbally destroyed you", "small guy","just a troll", etc, since this is a clear case of insecurity. If your arguments are truly good enough, you don't need to attach these superiority proving little remarks.
My tone? take a look at what you are regularly saying.
Seeing conspiracies is a trademark of fanatical defenders, not fanatical attackers, since conspirecies are about secret coordinated evil attacks, not defenses. Try summing up our "over the edge" statements to form a conspiracy.
Since you asked for it, here is your answer, and this time perhaps you should consider you usual closing remark : "get over yourself"
Comments
Now this is a nice reply. I can agree with you to some point here. I don't consider them as wildly unimaginative as you. I really view them as the same stuff you would find in most MMO's, though I have come across some really fun ones.
My only real purpose was to derail the condescending, know-it-all, retard random. He's so cool on the internet.
There are plenty of imaginative quests in this game...the only r-tards that are whineing about the grind and the same dim bulbs that dont read the mission info in COH, blow through them as quickly as possible, then whinge cuz there is no content...come back to me when you are 'forced' to clear the same dungon 37 times to level up, then you can bitch (GUK anyone?)...until then, learn what the word grind means please?Name some imaginative quests then please? All I remember, running around Khal in Qualia, was kill x number of scorpions...kill x number of rat people...kill x number hyenas...kill x number of desert bandits....kill x number of lions, fireflies and crocs while you're at it too cause that's all there is to do! Oh and deliver this letter to my friend a few miles away....That's it. I know its the same as every MMORPG out there already...but this is supposed to be the almighty Vanguard that promised to be way greater then anything else out there, a "3rd gen MMORPG."
And no, not all of us complaining blow through the content a.s.a.p.
I read every word of those quests, trying to ignore the most embrassing voice acting in existence while I'm at it (Vulmane voices, anyone?) and taking my sweet time with everything.
Oh I love the Kojani and Vulmane voice acting the most. They're entertaining to say the least, especially Vulmane.But umm, imaginative quests? There's none really, Adventuring quests are plain terrible. And I don't say this out of comparing Vanguard with another game, but to itself.
By that I mean, Diplomacy quests are very interesting and imaginative. Anyone do those Kojan track? Random teleporting to the top of mountains, leap of faith off of a broken mountain bridge to no where? Those are great, and I sorely wish the same designers who thought up and created the Diplomacy quests had a heavier hand in the Adventuring ones.
It isn't just that the story and lore of the Diplomacy quests are better, it's that they creatively employ more mechanical means better too. Adventuring quests severely abuse the kill X, loot Y, come back to Z type of quests. All you're ever doing is killing some number of something, looting quest items from it, or searching some area for things to loot off the ground. That's 99% of what you're doing; a far cry from the creativity that went into Diplomacy.
If you ask me, both Adventuring and Diplomacy could've been just as equally interesting, with the only difference being your success in a quest is determined by whether or not you win a fight, rather than winning a parley. They saw that reading the dialog of a parley wasn't enough to make it interesting, so they added imaginative tidbits around Diplomacy which are the true treasures; but didn't have the same insight in knowing repetitive killing was equally as unexciting as repetitive parleys and sorely needed something wrapped around it.
Every MMO is a grind, yeah, but its how its presented that is important. Unfortunately VG in particular does a bad job at presenting this grind (which is what Anofayle is getting at I believe) cause there's such little variation; the grind become much more obvious. I don't know about diplomacy but crafting is no better, doing boring work orders all day that make me bang my head against the wall.
Yeah, your example would be pretty cool, and I agree that the devs, of any game, not just VG, would be better off hiring a screenwriter, or some other professional writer to do quest dialogue.
Mostly, I think it boils down to money, whether it being the cost of hiring a pro writer, or developer costs in time, money, and system impact. To use your example, it would be cool, it's certainly technically feasible, though I think it would cause issues in a game like VG, where there's no instancing. Too many people would show up, things start getting laggy, and crashing, etc. While I haven't played TBC for WoW, I believe the Battle for Mt Hyjal thing is a lot like what you describe, albeit in more of a pvp vein, with npcs thrown in for flavor. WAR sounds like it will have things like this as well, although also pvp oriented, rather than strictly pve. But then, we're tiptoeing into player made content which deserves a thread unto itself. Though, usually, when I think of Player Made content, I automatically think of Second Life, and I just get scared, and have to take a shower to was the dirty feeling off.
I would like to see more one of a kind quests which have an impact on the world itself, a la the Sleeper in EQ. Though, with better scripting, and a more random nature, rather than as purely end game scenarios. Say you stumble on a small hamlet tucked away in a remote valley. The village elders plead with you, and/or your group, to protect them from the orcs that live in the surrounding hills/mountains. You can then agree to help the villagers, or you can choose to help the orcs, or even kill both. If you aid the village, you then could have to option of heading up to the orcs stronghold, and wiping them out, which would cause no orcs to spawn in that area anymore, and the village would grow in size to become a larger city, perhaps with a statue of you in the town square, or something. If you aid the orcs, the village is destroyed, and the orcs overrun the area, eventually building a temple to their bloodthirsty gods, and more, and stronger orcs begin spawning and slowly begin encroaching on other areas in the region. If you were to kill off both, it could go a couple ways, but I'd say, the natural order takes over, grassland grows back, with the normal flora and fauna coming back to the area, and just a ruins of a small farming village in a random valley. Perhaps rumors of the ruins of some farm that was slaughter by evil doers, and some things that go bump in the night spawning a bit down the road, eventually drawing a necromancer, vampire, lich or whatever that sets up shop in the orcs abandoned dwelling, and then the cycle starts over, just more organically than doing the village quest, kill the orcs, and 30 minutes later they respawn, and the next group comes along to do it all over again.
From there, you could even do other things, like having random orcs attack you in retaliation, or conversely, fleeing in terror from you. As word spreads of your deeds, you are viewed differently across the whole world, rather than just gettting 10 points of faction with the nearest large town.
Granted, I don't know that we're quite there, tech wise. Nor do I know how the average player would respond to a system like that. Obviously, you'd have to have plenty of static content as well, otherwise, you'd have to spend a fortune on a live team that was contantly monitoring the world, and adding new things in for the players to do. It'd work well in a niche game, but in something like WoW, it'd be a really bad idea.
I'd also like to see more quest rewards akin to the statue thing, rather than strictly item/cash/exp. But again, deserves it's own thread.
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself. I would really enjoy if you would look up the terminology for troll, then look up my post history and compare. I have posted dozens of arguments among my posts, you jumped to conclusions.
What do you thinks make you any better? Perhaps the fact that you jumped at my throat, not even giving any arguments in your reply to me?
Any game has issues! Every game has grind of some kind, and VG is absolutely no better than anything out on the market, read any professional review about it. I am not saying it has no appeal for a certain target audience, I am saying it has design shortcomings compared to what was promised.
And it would be psychologically healthier if the fans got over the mistakes the game has, aknowledge them, and try to make it better, being defensive does help you fight off those who dislike the game, however it does not look good in the eyes of those, who are initially neutral. Everyone knows a community can make or break a game, and how welcoming and tolerant a community is plays a big part.
I have read many posts on almost a dozen forums, where the community of vanguard was discussed, and a certain (perhaps 20ish) percentage said the reason they left VG was because of the community. Honestly, do you want to be on the same level WoW allegedly is on?
Now stop the personal attacks, as you have no idea who I am, or what level of cool I am, and as long as I respect you by not trying to discredit you, instead I try to argument, I demand the same respect.
The fact that I disagree about VG with you, doesn't mean we have to fight over it, losing our dignity.
Now this is a nice reply. I can agree with you to some point here. I don't consider them as wildly unimaginative as you. I really view them as the same stuff you would find in most MMO's, though I have come across some really fun ones.
My only real purpose was to derail the condescending, know-it-all, retard random. He's so cool on the internet.
There are plenty of imaginative quests in this game...the only r-tards that are whineing about the grind and the same dim bulbs that dont read the mission info in COH, blow through them as quickly as possible, then whinge cuz there is no content...come back to me when you are 'forced' to clear the same dungon 37 times to level up, then you can bitch (GUK anyone?)...until then, learn what the word grind means please?Name some imaginative quests then please? All I remember, running around Khal in Qualia, was kill x number of scorpions...kill x number of rat people...kill x number hyenas...kill x number of desert bandits....kill x number of lions, fireflies and crocs while you're at it too cause that's all there is to do! Oh and deliver this letter to my friend a few miles away....That's it. I know its the same as every MMORPG out there already...but this is supposed to be the almighty Vanguard that promised to be way greater then anything else out there, a "3rd gen MMORPG."
And no, not all of us complaining blow through the content a.s.a.p.
I read every word of those quests, trying to ignore the most embrassing voice acting in existence while I'm at it (Vulmane voices, anyone? Were they so drunk they hired Jar-Jar Binks?) and taking my sweet time with everything.
So, you were about level 12? You judge all the quests in a game based on the few lowbie quests surrounding one small city on one continent? Which happens to be the most unfinished of the 3 continents...
Last night I did a quest that was pretty interesting. Out of Veshkal's Exchange, on Thestra. You get sent to a nearby cave full of spiders. First you have to kill "kain widows" until you get 10 fangs. Pretty standard. After you turn that in, you have to go back and get bitten by another type of spider. In between the time you are bitten and when you turn in this phase of the quest, baby ettercaps spawn from your body periodically and attack you. Then you turn in that part and get cured. Then you have to go back and put some experimental potion on some spider eggs. You take the results of that back to the quest giver and are sent for the final part. Putting a revised version of the potion on the Spider Queen. Which kills her and spawns 4 baby queens. Then you find out the person you were working for was actually evil and you've helped her with some evil plot. You then kill her and finish the quest. Pretty standard for the most part, but I found it interesing and fun. There's only so much you can do with a game. Dynamic content would be great. But that's a little unrealistic at this stage of technology.
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.He's not lying when he said the content is repetitive. It is. There is no variation in the quests, they're really unimaginative. And yes, to the OP, there's plenty of adventures to go on in VG, but its too bad they're all exactly the same: kill x number of creatures and be an errandy boy quests, only a different piece of scenery every now and then. It's boring and its old and simply not good enough for a game that promised to really get on top of the pack.
THIS is a legitimate arguement, although I would strongly disagree. The quests are extreamly varied, considering the limits of a modern game. For example, many quests have surpising steps, twists & turns. There are however just as many Kill, Rinse Repeat options as well, but I personally have done VERY few of them when I had the option. They are there though, but that is far from the majority of quests.
SPOILER ALERT:
One Dugeon for example takes place around a shipwreck. You are sent there to kill the undead sailors that are terrorizing the nearby settlement. If you are lucky, you will loot a ship's logbook. If you chose to review the Log Book, then ask the Local Settlement about it, you are sent to a Sailor in a town down the road. There, a Sailor eplains what happened to the ship, and suggest if you kill the Undead Captian, the Curse may end. So, you fight your way to the Captian (there are other quests in the ship as well) and when you get to him you can choose to listen to his tale or not. IF you listen, he tells you the story of the wreck from a new perspective and explains the ship wrecked on top of the entrence to an ancient Temple. He goes on to say he was bewitched when he wreck the ship, and the cause where 4 Dimensional Gates in the Temple, and the Temples Guardian. You can then choose if you would like to kill him or close the Gates and kill the Guardian. If you choose the later, you fight your way to each Gate through summoned beasts & the Undead and close each Gate, then face the Guardian and his minions. Once done, you can choose to release the Undead Sailors, or Curse them. Besides this questline, there are 3-4 others for the same Dungeon. There are HUNDREDS like this.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Now this is a nice reply. I can agree with you to some point here. I don't consider them as wildly unimaginative as you. I really view them as the same stuff you would find in most MMO's, though I have come across some really fun ones.
My only real purpose was to derail the condescending, know-it-all, retard random. He's so cool on the internet.
There are plenty of imaginative quests in this game...the only r-tards that are whineing about the grind and the same dim bulbs that dont read the mission info in COH, blow through them as quickly as possible, then whinge cuz there is no content...come back to me when you are 'forced' to clear the same dungon 37 times to level up, then you can bitch (GUK anyone?)...until then, learn what the word grind means please?Name some imaginative quests then please? All I remember, running around Khal in Qualia, was kill x number of scorpions...kill x number of rat people...kill x number hyenas...kill x number of desert bandits....kill x number of lions, fireflies and crocs while you're at it too cause that's all there is to do! Oh and deliver this letter to my friend a few miles away....That's it. I know its the same as every MMORPG out there already...but this is supposed to be the almighty Vanguard that promised to be way greater then anything else out there, a "3rd gen MMORPG."
And no, not all of us complaining blow through the content a.s.a.p.
I read every word of those quests, trying to ignore the most embrassing voice acting in existence while I'm at it (Vulmane voices, anyone? Were they so drunk they hired Jar-Jar Binks?) and taking my sweet time with everything.
So, you were about level 12? You judge all the quests in a game based on the few lowbie quests surrounding one small city on one continent? Which happens to be the most unfinished of the 3 continents...
Last night I did a quest that was pretty interesting. Out of Veshkal's Exchange, on Thestra. You get sent to a nearby cave full of spiders. First you have to kill "kain widows" until you get 10 fangs. Pretty standard. After you turn that in, you have to go back and get bitten by another type of spider. In between the time you are bitten and when you turn in this phase of the quest, baby ettercaps spawn from your body periodically and attack you. Then you turn in that part and get cured. Then you have to go back and put some experimental potion on some spider eggs. You take the results of that back to the quest giver and are sent for the final part. Putting a revised version of the potion on the Spider Queen. Which kills her and spawns 4 baby queens. Then you find out the person you were working for was actually evil and you've helped her with some evil plot. You then kill her and finish the quest. Pretty standard for the most part, but I found it interesing and fun. There's only so much you can do with a game. Dynamic content would be great. But that's a little unrealistic at this stage of technology.
My highest was a 15. And yes I judge a game by its first impressions, they're important. Give people a crappy impression and they'll have a hell of a hard time trying to rub it out right? I also had a Thestrian druid, lvl 12, I didn't find the quests any better honestly. Greener scenery same boring stuff. It's nice to know there seems to be a few interesting quests, like this spider one you mentioned, but I have no idea how long I have to wait to get them. Perhaps all the "good" quests start at 20, as people are telling me. But I shouldn't need to drag myself through tedium to experience the game's better parts. The excitement needs to start from lvl 1, isn't that fair?
E8400@ 4.0Ghz ~ Saphire HD 4870 ~ 6GB DDR2@ 860MhZ
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.I would really enjoy if you would look up the terminology for troll, then look up my post history and compare. I have posted dozens of arguments among my posts, you jumped to conclusions.
What do you thinks make you any better? Perhaps the fact that you jumped at my throat, not even giving any arguments in your reply to me?
Any game has issues! Every game has grind of some kind, and VG is absolutely no better than anything out on the market, read any professional review about it. I am not saying it has no appeal for a certain target audience, I am saying it has design shortcomings compared to what was promised.
And it would be psychologically healthier if the fans got over the mistakes the game has, aknowledge them, and try to make it better, being defensive does help you fight off those who dislike the game, however it does not look good in the eyes of those, who are initially neutral. Everyone knows a community can make or break a game, and how welcoming and tolerant a community is plays a big part.
I have read many posts on almost a dozen forums, where the community of vanguard was discussed, and a certain (perhaps 20ish) percentage said the reason they left VG was because of the community. Honestly, do you want to be on the same level WoW allegedly is on?
Now stop the personal attacks, as you have no idea who I am, or what level of cool I am, and as long as I respect you by not trying to discredit you, instead I try to argument, I demand the same respect.
The fact that I disagree about VG with you, doesn't mean we have to fight over it, losing our dignity.
I'm not concerned with your posting history, you showed your true colors in the post I quoted above. Are you going to sit here and tell me that you didn't try to discredit MX13s by taking a shot at his intelligence? "Now go help out your damsel in distress" nice job small guy, way to show how smart and witty you are on the internet.
You really outdid yourself with the latest reply though. Those sweeping generalizations and holier than thou attitude really showed me the light. BTW You would need to have some dignity before we could fight over it pal.
Edit* I feel compelled to comment further before you taint this forum with any more misinformation. I read through your posting history, you are an X beta player. So how is Vanguard comming along? Oh wait, you wouldn't know.. which means you have zero credibility. It's amazing how much you have been commenting on the state of the game considering you dont play it... hmmmm. I guess I should be worried about those who are neutral, considering I am currently playing, my opinion pales in comparison to yours...
I had to laugh at your statistics that mean absolutely nothing. You guess 20%... hahahahahahahaha, nice, all that playtime of the forums would give you a better understanding of the community then someone who..... I don't know.. plays the game. I mean dozens of random, unnamed, forums really gives you the data you need to make such an amazing calculation. Gosh I could go on and on. I think you have been taking notes from those "Loose Change" conspiracy theoriest films. It's amazing what you can do when you just make stuff up.
Like a said... get over yourself.
QFT!
This is by far the MOST sensible outlook to MMOing I have ever seen.
Every MMO requires you to grind somthing. It's a matter of how you aproach it and finding an MMO that you don't mind grinding at.
now gcomes the pause while I wait for some jag off WOW fanboi to go off ......prove me wrong just keep the insults to yourself ...
VANGUARD ROCKS I LOVE IT SOOO MUCH FUN GOOD WORK SIGIL , thought you got some bugs to work out yet
The main limitation is the imagination of the Developers. They really just all copying each other these days. Leveling, classes, blah, blah there's so much stagnation in the MMORPG industry it just makes me want to puke. They could have some pretty interesting stuff you know- like Guild Wars or like you would see in a rpg like final fantasy. The bottom line is that it simply takes the Developers too long to develop quests thus we end up with simple little quests my 9 yr old daughter can write. just easier to spit those out hell u can even generate those type of kill x & errand quests. It probably wont get any better until we see MMOs move towards player driven worlds whereas your quests comes from players and more player interaction is involved. for instance, maybe a lowbie needs to hire an escourt through some dangerous forest. How about some merchant needs to hire a smuggler to transport some goods across enemy lines. Are how bout getting a quest from a quest giver and perhaps there is a chance a bandit (PKer) jumps you, takes the item, and delivers it to the quest giver.
Developers simply cant keep up with the demand of players. You guys burn through content way faster than they can make them. Look at Gears of War my bro and I beat that overnight. that game took Epic years to make I'm sure. We wont see MMOs overcome this obstacle until they figure out a way to get players to drive the content or better ways to generate the quests somehow (have a smart AI that can generate fresh new quests).
Yeah, your example would be pretty cool, and I agree that the devs, of any game, not just VG, would be better off hiring a screenwriter, or some other professional writer to do quest dialogue.
Mostly, I think it boils down to money, whether it being the cost of hiring a pro writer, or developer costs in time, money, and system impact. To use your example, it would be cool, it's certainly technically feasible, though I think it would cause issues in a game like VG, where there's no instancing. Too many people would show up, things start getting laggy, and crashing, etc. While I haven't played TBC for WoW, I believe the Battle for Mt Hyjal thing is a lot like what you describe, albeit in more of a pvp vein, with npcs thrown in for flavor. WAR sounds like it will have things like this as well, although also pvp oriented, rather than strictly pve. But then, we're tiptoeing into player made content which deserves a thread unto itself. Though, usually, when I think of Player Made content, I automatically think of Second Life, and I just get scared, and have to take a shower to was the dirty feeling off.
I would like to see more one of a kind quests which have an impact on the world itself, a la the Sleeper in EQ. Though, with better scripting, and a more random nature, rather than as purely end game scenarios. Say you stumble on a small hamlet tucked away in a remote valley. The village elders plead with you, and/or your group, to protect them from the orcs that live in the surrounding hills/mountains. You can then agree to help the villagers, or you can choose to help the orcs, or even kill both. If you aid the village, you then could have to option of heading up to the orcs stronghold, and wiping them out, which would cause no orcs to spawn in that area anymore, and the village would grow in size to become a larger city, perhaps with a statue of you in the town square, or something. If you aid the orcs, the village is destroyed, and the orcs overrun the area, eventually building a temple to their bloodthirsty gods, and more, and stronger orcs begin spawning and slowly begin encroaching on other areas in the region. If you were to kill off both, it could go a couple ways, but I'd say, the natural order takes over, grassland grows back, with the normal flora and fauna coming back to the area, and just a ruins of a small farming village in a random valley. Perhaps rumors of the ruins of some farm that was slaughter by evil doers, and some things that go bump in the night spawning a bit down the road, eventually drawing a necromancer, vampire, lich or whatever that sets up shop in the orcs abandoned dwelling, and then the cycle starts over, just more organically than doing the village quest, kill the orcs, and 30 minutes later they respawn, and the next group comes along to do it all over again.
From there, you could even do other things, like having random orcs attack you in retaliation, or conversely, fleeing in terror from you. As word spreads of your deeds, you are viewed differently across the whole world, rather than just gettting 10 points of faction with the nearest large town.
Granted, I don't know that we're quite there, tech wise. Nor do I know how the average player would respond to a system like that. Obviously, you'd have to have plenty of static content as well, otherwise, you'd have to spend a fortune on a live team that was contantly monitoring the world, and adding new things in for the players to do. It'd work well in a niche game, but in something like WoW, it'd be a really bad idea.
I'd also like to see more quest rewards akin to the statue thing, rather than strictly item/cash/exp. But again, deserves it's own thread.
ah yes good ideas here.It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.I would really enjoy if you would look up the terminology for troll, then look up my post history and compare. I have posted dozens of arguments among my posts, you jumped to conclusions.
What do you thinks make you any better? Perhaps the fact that you jumped at my throat, not even giving any arguments in your reply to me?
Any game has issues! Every game has grind of some kind, and VG is absolutely no better than anything out on the market, read any professional review about it. I am not saying it has no appeal for a certain target audience, I am saying it has design shortcomings compared to what was promised.
And it would be psychologically healthier if the fans got over the mistakes the game has, aknowledge them, and try to make it better, being defensive does help you fight off those who dislike the game, however it does not look good in the eyes of those, who are initially neutral. Everyone knows a community can make or break a game, and how welcoming and tolerant a community is plays a big part.
I have read many posts on almost a dozen forums, where the community of vanguard was discussed, and a certain (perhaps 20ish) percentage said the reason they left VG was because of the community. Honestly, do you want to be on the same level WoW allegedly is on?
Now stop the personal attacks, as you have no idea who I am, or what level of cool I am, and as long as I respect you by not trying to discredit you, instead I try to argument, I demand the same respect.
The fact that I disagree about VG with you, doesn't mean we have to fight over it, losing our dignity.
I'm not concerned with your posting history, you showed your true colors in the post I quoted above. Are you going to sit here and tell me that you didn't try to discredit MX13s by taking a shot at his intelligence? "Now go help out your damsel in distress" nice job small guy, way to show how smart and witty you are on the internet.
You really outdid yourself with the latest reply though. Those sweeping generalizations and holier than thou attitude really showed me the light. BTW You would need to have some dignity before we could fight over it pal.
Edit* I feel compelled to comment further before you taint this forum with any more misinformation. I read through your posting history, you are an X beta player. So how is Vanguard comming along? Oh wait, you wouldn't know.. which means you have zero credibility. It's amazing how much you have been commenting on the state of the game considering you dont play it... hmmmm. I guess I should be worried about those who are neutral, considering I am currently playing, my opinion pales in comparison to yours...
I had to laugh at your statistics that mean absolutely nothing. You guess 20%... hahahahahahahaha, nice, all that playtime of the forums would give you a better understanding of the community then someone who..... I don't know.. plays the game. I mean dozens of random, unnamed, forums really gives you the data you need to make such an amazing calculation. Gosh I could go on and on. I think you have been taking notes from those "Loose Change" conspiracy theoriest films. It's amazing what you can do when you just make stuff up.
Like a said... get over yourself.
Well, don't say I didn't try to be civil!So, just so you have it cleared up, are you or are you not concerned with my posting history?
All you rant about is my person, and yet again you have brought no arguments to the table, other than my credibility, which I will sort out in a moment. The go help the damsel in distress was a joke, thus the smiley just in case, as he was waiting for a female player to help her. Please, skip over the "small guy" kind of intimidating namecalling, I am unaffected, and if that's the best you can bring on, well then I am forced to think you have an ego issue. No need to post things like "X Y, over the internet", I am here, you are here, makes us the same, since we both use the same medium to communicate.
The state of the game: My comments about the game have been about the community, the engine, the visuals, the mechanics, the quests, 3rd gen, Brad. I'll take them one by one.
Community : although a lot more players have joined after release, the hard core, the long time fans remained the same, as they have been in beta. The blind fan people will never change, and they are here to stay, so I might as well talk about them.
The engine: since I know from a professional point of view what the unreal engine is about, I can comment as I please, since they haven't changed that since beta. They didn't improve the model/skin ratio, they still have very unefficient code etc. My friend's company has a license on the unreal engine, and we showed me a few of the works, so I know first hand what that engine is capable of. So when I say that Sigil designers and programmers are amateur, I know why.
The visuals: I bet they didn't change a lot of things since beta, since it would be a lot of work. By the visuals I don't only mean landing in the uncanny valley, I mean the harmony of the world, I mean how well buildings blend in with the atmosphere. And the sorry state of the game in this department is, that there is no art direction. With a good art direction and half the polygons they could have achieved a lot lot more.
The mechanics: I have a personal opinion about the combat mechanics, in short: I dislike it, and find it to be exactly as EQ. But this is a matter of taste, so I won't go in detail, but this changed nothing since beta, so I may comment, as it is a concept.
Quests: Repetitive, very repetitive. Not more than other games out there, but that doesn't change the fact, that a real 3rd gen game would need a lot more flavor. I could also talk about the decision to make a game without instances, which I think was another mistake. Did they change anything since beta? No.
3rd gen: This is an opinion compiled of all the above, since the above didn't change since beta, I still consider this game 2nd gen. This is not a bad thing, as this was obviously the way they wanted this game to go, but instead they advertised as a 3rd gen game. Did this change since beta? No.
Brad: okay, this man will never change. In my humble opinion, he is better than most developers with his social skills, but I doubt his talent. Among the MMO designers, I consider him mediocre, no better than the next guy, but he has a huge mouth, and likes to bash, that's all.
What I haven't talked about is bugs, and I will never do, since I no longer know anything about that. The only things I did talk about, are things that didn't change since beta (And I can talk about how polished the game was at launch, as long as I don't talk about how it is today, but luckily others state the truth about it anyway). So if you want to discredit me, then prove that things I talked about changed since beta, up until that point you are doing nothing but personal attacks, like your previous posts about me.
The conspiracy: Interesting that you would bring up conspiracy with my name, I am the one who says there is no conspiracy. I even compiled a lot of the blind fan statements in to one sarcastic thread, you can see there about the conspiracy
In short: Sigil is to blame/congratulate for VG. SOE had nothing to do with it, unreal engine definetly isn't the fault, and WoW players don't care.
If you decide to reply, please make it a worthy one, by arguing, thank you!
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
If the game is so great, why are you on the forum instead of playing.
Maybe at work or something, you kids wouldn't understand that.
If the game is so great, why are you on the forum instead of playing.
Maybe at work or something, you kids wouldn't understand that. This yet again is so typical. What do you feel when you chose to post something discrediting like this instead of arguments. You think people don't have a valid reason to post negative things about the game or it's community? Get real, this game is mediocre, which is not bad, since there is no groundbreaking MMO out there (yet). So drop the whole conspiracy, it's not kids nor WoW players who say the game has flaws, it's people of any kind of background/age, when a game receives this much hate, you must ask yourself "why?" instead of denial.
every MMO can be perceived to have a grind... a well designed MMO will make the grind "transparent' as you are having fun with the content, even if it is repetative.
that is why WoW is so popular, yes, it's a grindfest, but the core gameplay elements are there to make it an enjoyable experience so the "grind" factor of it becomes more transparent.
i really can't say how grind in VG feels, only played to level 11 in beta...
It's not about how many quests there are, it's about the repetitivness of the content. VG is just the same kind of game like any other 2nd generation MMO, with a longer (fans read "harder") XP progression.
Gring is VG's backbone, now go help out your damsel in distress ;D
Another troll who doesn't know anything about Vanguard... you are a total forum nerd.. nothing more, get over yourself.I would really enjoy if you would look up the terminology for troll, then look up my post history and compare. I have posted dozens of arguments among my posts, you jumped to conclusions.
What do you thinks make you any better? Perhaps the fact that you jumped at my throat, not even giving any arguments in your reply to me?
Any game has issues! Every game has grind of some kind, and VG is absolutely no better than anything out on the market, read any professional review about it. I am not saying it has no appeal for a certain target audience, I am saying it has design shortcomings compared to what was promised.
And it would be psychologically healthier if the fans got over the mistakes the game has, aknowledge them, and try to make it better, being defensive does help you fight off those who dislike the game, however it does not look good in the eyes of those, who are initially neutral. Everyone knows a community can make or break a game, and how welcoming and tolerant a community is plays a big part.
I have read many posts on almost a dozen forums, where the community of vanguard was discussed, and a certain (perhaps 20ish) percentage said the reason they left VG was because of the community. Honestly, do you want to be on the same level WoW allegedly is on?
Now stop the personal attacks, as you have no idea who I am, or what level of cool I am, and as long as I respect you by not trying to discredit you, instead I try to argument, I demand the same respect.
The fact that I disagree about VG with you, doesn't mean we have to fight over it, losing our dignity.
I'm not concerned with your posting history, you showed your true colors in the post I quoted above. Are you going to sit here and tell me that you didn't try to discredit MX13s by taking a shot at his intelligence? "Now go help out your damsel in distress" nice job small guy, way to show how smart and witty you are on the internet.
You really outdid yourself with the latest reply though. Those sweeping generalizations and holier than thou attitude really showed me the light. BTW You would need to have some dignity before we could fight over it pal.
Edit* I feel compelled to comment further before you taint this forum with any more misinformation. I read through your posting history, you are an X beta player. So how is Vanguard comming along? Oh wait, you wouldn't know.. which means you have zero credibility. It's amazing how much you have been commenting on the state of the game considering you dont play it... hmmmm. I guess I should be worried about those who are neutral, considering I am currently playing, my opinion pales in comparison to yours...
I had to laugh at your statistics that mean absolutely nothing. You guess 20%... hahahahahahahaha, nice, all that playtime of the forums would give you a better understanding of the community then someone who..... I don't know.. plays the game. I mean dozens of random, unnamed, forums really gives you the data you need to make such an amazing calculation. Gosh I could go on and on. I think you have been taking notes from those "Loose Change" conspiracy theoriest films. It's amazing what you can do when you just make stuff up.
Like a said... get over yourself.
Well, don't say I didn't try to be civil!So, just so you have it cleared up, are you or are you not concerned with my posting history?
All you rant about is my person, and yet again you have brought no arguments to the table, other than my credibility, which I will sort out in a moment. The go help the damsel in distress was a joke, thus the smiley just in case, as he was waiting for a female player to help her. Please, skip over the "small guy" kind of intimidating namecalling, I am unaffected, and if that's the best you can bring on, well then I am forced to think you have an ego issue. No need to post things like "X Y, over the internet", I am here, you are here, makes us the same, since we both use the same medium to communicate.
The state of the game: My comments about the game have been about the community, the engine, the visuals, the mechanics, the quests, 3rd gen, Brad. I'll take them one by one.
Community : although a lot more players have joined after release, the hard core, the long time fans remained the same, as they have been in beta. The blind fan people will never change, and they are here to stay, so I might as well talk about them.
The engine: since I know from a professional point of view what the unreal engine is about, I can comment as I please, since they haven't changed that since beta. They didn't improve the model/skin ratio, they still have very unefficient code etc. My friend's company has a license on the unreal engine, and we showed me a few of the works, so I know first hand what that engine is capable of. So when I say that Sigil designers and programmers are amateur, I know why.
The visuals: I bet they didn't change a lot of things since beta, since it would be a lot of work. By the visuals I don't only mean landing in the uncanny valley, I mean the harmony of the world, I mean how well buildings blend in with the atmosphere. And the sorry state of the game in this department is, that there is no art direction. With a good art direction and half the polygons they could have achieved a lot lot more.
The mechanics: I have a personal opinion about the combat mechanics, in short: I dislike it, and find it to be exactly as EQ. But this is a matter of taste, so I won't go in detail, but this changed nothing since beta, so I may comment, as it is a concept.
Quests: Repetitive, very repetitive. Not more than other games out there, but that doesn't change the fact, that a real 3rd gen game would need a lot more flavor. I could also talk about the decision to make a game without instances, which I think was another mistake. Did they change anything since beta? No.
3rd gen: This is an opinion compiled of all the above, since the above didn't change since beta, I still consider this game 2nd gen. This is not a bad thing, as this was obviously the way they wanted this game to go, but instead they advertised as a 3rd gen game. Did this change since beta? No.
Brad: okay, this man will never change. In my humble opinion, he is better than most developers with his social skills, but I doubt his talent. Among the MMO designers, I consider him mediocre, no better than the next guy, but he has a huge mouth, and likes to bash, that's all.
What I haven't talked about is bugs, and I will never do, since I no longer know anything about that. The only things I did talk about, are things that didn't change since beta (And I can talk about how polished the game was at launch, as long as I don't talk about how it is today, but luckily others state the truth about it anyway). So if you want to discredit me, then prove that things I talked about changed since beta, up until that point you are doing nothing but personal attacks, like your previous posts about me.
The conspiracy: Interesting that you would bring up conspiracy with my name, I am the one who says there is no conspiracy. I even compiled a lot of the blind fan statements in to one sarcastic thread, you can see there about the conspiracy
In short: Sigil is to blame/congratulate for VG. SOE had nothing to do with it, unreal engine definetly isn't the fault, and WoW players don't care.
If you decide to reply, please make it a worthy one, by arguing, thank you!
Fine, I'll bite.
Community: Possibly one of the nicest IN GAME communities I've come across. These forums don't have any reflection on the community that is currently playing the game. I took a poll in /shout recently and the average age out of about twenty five responses was 24 years old. That is saying something. I was farming the verdant lurker camps recently and came away with about 20 pieces of nice set armor. I gave it all away for free, I could have sold it, but to see the gratitude and excitement of people getting their first nice pieces of armor was worth far more than virtual coin. Some people even came over and gave me free 10 slot bags. I get buffs without asking and return the favor, questions in general chat get answered, and people are just genuinely enjoying the game. I can say all of this with confidence, because I play the game.
The Engine: I'm going to blow your mind right now... I have to agree with you on this point. The UT engine is extremely efficient and it seems Vanguard isn't utilizing that at this point. However! The game runs MUCH better then it did on the last day of beta. I know its hard to believe considering it's sorry state pre-launch. There are many posts from people amazed at what a difference that week made. Though most of the credit should probably go to removal of the debugging code. Every patch thus far has made a difference as well. The game still suffers from some hitching, chunk loading, lag ect.. but to say these problems are anywhere near what they were in beta is laughable, and a bald-faced lie.
The Visuals: I don't think we will get very far here, this really is a matter of taste. To say there is NO art direction is a pretty presumptuous statement, and kind of makes you look silly. I enjoy what I have seen so far, reminds me of EQ. Some regions I've visited could use some touching up but making the run from Bordinairs Cleft to Taheans Vengence really opened my eyes to the size, scope, and beauty of the game.
The Mechanics: Again, a matter of taste. This is the updated playstyle I've been looking for since EQ. Thats really all I can say, it works for me.
Quests: I have not really found the quests to be repetitive, though not ground breaking either. I'm not sure what they could have done to really revolutionize this department. For me, this really isn't a big factor. I've gained most of my levels from simply looking for interesting places on the map and going there to explore. Finding new challenging dungeons, pushing me and my friends abilities to the limit. I can see how this would be a disappointment to you and others who enjoy questing.
3rd Gen: I will concede this point to you. Though looking at the size and scope of what they are trying to pull off, can we compromise... say 2nd and 1/2 gen?
Brad Mac: I never really got caught up in all this Brad/Messiah nonsense. I think he made the best game I've ever played with EQ, and another game I'm really enjoying with VG. I guess you could say his track record FOR ME... speaks for itself.
As far as bugs go the only one I ever encounter is the old disappearing mob trick. Once this one is squashed I really don't have anything to say. I just don't encounter all these bugs I see flamed about on this board. The fact that it's taking so long is irritating but I can deal.
The problem I have with your posts has nothing to do with VG. It's your semantic tone. You belittled the original poster for experessing a view about a game you dont even play. I could make a blind hate compilation conspiracy thread twice the size of your so called "blind fan" thread. That door swings both ways pal, you know less about this game as a critic that doesn't play then a "blind fan" who does. So seriously.................. get over yourself.
the description of this quest line makes me want to play this game even more. explain to me how that quest is a "fedex" quest, or a "kill 300 of these" quest? everyone seems to think those are the only types of quests. lol.
Fine, I'll bite.
Community: Possibly one of the nicest IN GAME communities I've come across. These forums don't have any reflection on the community that is currently playing the game. I took a poll in /shout recently and the average age out of about twenty five responses was 24 years old. That is saying something. I was farming the verdant lurker camps recently and came away with about 20 pieces of nice set armor. I gave it all away for free, I could have sold it, but to see the gratitude and excitement of people getting their first nice pieces of armor was worth far more than virtual coin. Some people even came over and gave me free 10 slot bags. I get buffs without asking and return the favor, questions in general chat get answered, and people are just genuinely enjoying the game. I can say all of this with confidence, because I play the game.
I am not surprized that you like the community, since you like and know the game. Like I said the hard fanatic core remained since beta, this is 100% sure. Also they are the ones advancing fastest, so these people, that most call "elitist pricks" are now in the higher level zones ... sorry, chunks. When they were lower level and in beta they ripped apart many people, who only had questions. Even I have my sorry ass tale about them, might want to read up on it. Also check out what Breezer thought about the whole community situation, you can find his post on silky venom.
When in a mature enviroment, you will most probably find kids lying about their age, or not even responding, so your average doesn't mean much. Furthermore, maturity is a tricky thing. You see I believe you have to be of a certain age to be mature, but that is not the only requirement, meaning you might be as mature as a 11 year old, even if you are 30. In fact, the more isolated you are, the more of a nuisance you might be, long time "hardcore" players are often as immature as wow kids, only that they happen to think they are not, which is pathetic.
Don't take my word for it, check out the forums, it is no coincidence (nor conspiracy) that so many people think the community on some servers are a problem.
The Engine: I'm going to blow your mind right now... I have to agree with you on this point. The UT engine is extremely efficient and it seems Vanguard isn't utilizing that at this point. However! The game runs MUCH better then it did on the last day of beta. I know its hard to believe considering it's sorry state pre-launch. There are many posts from people amazed at what a difference that week made. Though most of the credit should probably go to removal of the debugging code. Every patch thus far has made a difference as well. The game still suffers from some hitching, chunk loading, lag ect.. but to say these problems are anywhere near what they were in beta is laughable, and a bald-faced lie.
They made design flaws with the engine, something that can't be fixed easily. These flaws are related to model/skin ratio, that eat up a lot of ram. This can be tweaked, but not fixed. Only time shall make this go away with better graphics cards. Before you call me a liar, better get things straight in the technical department.
The Visuals: I don't think we will get very far here, this really is a matter of taste. To say there is NO art direction is a pretty presumptuous statement, and kind of makes you look silly. I enjoy what I have seen so far, reminds me of EQ. Some regions I've visited could use some touching up but making the run from Bordinairs Cleft to Taheans Vengence really opened my eyes to the size, scope, and beauty of the game.
I still am on the opinion that they tried realism, and fell in the uncanny valley. With half the polygons, but a better art direction they could have done a lot more. Furthermore, the larger the game space, the less are the handcrafted enviroments.The Mechanics: Again, a matter of taste. This is the updated playstyle I've been looking for since EQ. Thats really all I can say, it works for me.
All I can say is Brad promised a lot of innovation in the combat department. All that became true was what he said about the bard song. But let's leave it at taste.Quests: I have not really found the quests to be repetitive, though not ground breaking either. I'm not sure what they could have done to really revolutionize this department. For me, this really isn't a big factor. I've gained most of my levels from simply looking for interesting places on the map and going there to explore. Finding new challenging dungeons, pushing me and my friends abilities to the limit. I can see how this would be a disappointment to you and others who enjoy questing.
This is the main reason I played DDO, and as long as it lasted, those dungeons were the best out there. I want to level on quests not mob killing, but that's just me.
3rd Gen: I will concede this point to you. Though looking at the size and scope of what they are trying to pull off, can we compromise... say 2nd and 1/2 gen?
I don't care what they are trying, I only care what they did so far. And that is second gen. I have several posts on this, don't like repeating myself, some of them are quite recent, you might have seen them.Brad Mac: I never really got caught up in all this Brad/Messiah nonsense. I think he made the best game I've ever played with EQ, and another game I'm really enjoying with VG. I guess you could say his track record FOR ME... speaks for itself.
Fair enough, for me he's just some mediocre guy, with one good game under his belt.
As far as bugs go the only one I ever encounter is the old disappearing mob trick. Once this one is squashed I really don't have anything to say. I just don't encounter all these bugs I see flamed about on this board. The fact that it's taking so long is irritating but I can deal.
Like I said before I don't comment on this part.
The problem I have with your posts has nothing to do with VG. It's your semantic tone. You belittled the original poster for experessing a view about a game you dont even play. I could make a blind hate compilation conspiracy thread twice the size of your so called "blind fan" thread. That door swings both ways pal, you know less about this game as a critic that doesn't play then a "blind fan" who does. So seriously.................. get over yourself.
Stop telling anyone to get over him/herself, as long as you post things like "verbally destroyed you", "small guy","just a troll", etc, since this is a clear case of insecurity. If your arguments are truly good enough, you don't need to attach these superiority proving little remarks.
My tone? take a look at what you are regularly saying.
Seeing conspiracies is a trademark of fanatical defenders, not fanatical attackers, since conspirecies are about secret coordinated evil attacks, not defenses. Try summing up our "over the edge" statements to form a conspiracy.
Since you asked for it, here is your answer, and this time perhaps you should consider you usual closing remark : "get over yourself"