I think many are failing to grasp the realities of the situation and confusing 2 seperate issues.
Vanguard has something of an oldschool style (for want of a better term) that doesn't appeal to everyone, although it is alot easier than true oldschool.
Vanguard has a fair few problems with client polish - although less than some exaggerate it to.
Now if the client could be polished, it obviously would, and it will end up polished eventually but it's going to take some time. People who like that olschool feeling whether new or old will stay with VG and put up with client problems because *drumroll this is the important bit* it is the only place to get something of that oldschool feeling mixed with more modern facilities.
Dropping the oldschool play dynamics to chase the newschool demographic is total financial suicide, because all you are left with is a client that in a far worse state than LOTRO or WoW, without any selling point i.e. complexity & depth. So no oldschoolers will subscribe, and all newschoolers will get their fix somewhere with less issues.
Lets put the argument another way, because Britney Spears & Nsync have sold alot of records, lets nominate that the new music, all music not Britney/Nsync or a close clone of Britney/Nsync can be deleted, because well Britney/Nsync was successful so clearly that other stuff has no market. While we're at it Titanic did great box office so we can delete all the other movies and just make Titanic 4,5,12,57. A world with multiple soft drinks? Clearly too confusing offering customers choice, lets delete everything but Coke and Coffee, those can be our two choices etc etc etc.
It doesn't matter if 6 billion people played Barney the Dinosaur MMO Adventures, if a few hundred thousand want to play NinjaPirate Survival Online, that's still a market it's an untapped dollar till someone fills it, changing the NinjaPirate Survival Online product into Gerald the Arthritic Dinosaurs MMO Adventures isn't a success plan, it's a suicide plan as you remove your selling point.
I'll say it again, the people who'll stick with Vanguard are the people who do it because of the game dynamics and inspite of the client issues. Fix the client, more will come, change the dynamics too far and there's little reason for anyone to stay.
It doesn't matter if 6 billion people played Barney the Dinosaur MMO Adventures, if a few hundred thousand want to play NinjaPirate Survival Online, that's still a market it's an untapped dollar till someone fills it, changing the NinjaPirate Survival Online product into Gerald the Arthritic Dinosaurs MMO Adventures isn't a success plan, it's a suicide plan as you remove your selling point.
I'll say it again, the people who'll stick with Vanguard are the people who do it because of the game dynamics and inspite of the client issues. Fix the client, more will come, change the dynamics too far and there's little reason for anyone to stay.
If the creators of NinjaPirate Survival Online want to tap a niche market, you would expect them to deliver a QUALITY PRODUCT.
This is why people are leaving VG in droves already. This isn't about VG being 'ez mode' or 'hardcore' - its about the game being a festering bugheap.
It is insulting to people who want to play NinjaPirate Survival Online to feel like they are second rate citizens worthy of a second rate game.
The way I see it is, if the death penalty is part of Vanguard then it should stay. If people cannot handle it they have the freedom of choice to just leave and find something more suited to their play style. No game should ever compromise part of it's fundamental mechanics to cater to a small minority of the people playing it. Just my 2 cp on that one...
You do realize that the "small minority" in the discussion about the current death penalties of VG are the ones who support it "as is", right? If the developers come to realize through "exit poll" feedback that the great majority of players that leave the game do so because of the harsh death penality, they WILL change it. Likely making it much less harsh (as EQ2 did) in order to retain more customers.
Wouldn't the bottom line to this be that some people like apples over oranges? It seems like the basis of the arguement is pretty off when we start commenting on how devs should make more money. Who friggin cares about the dev or the amount of cash they collect. All im interested in when i play a game is my self-enjoyment...period. Whether it be thru a guild or solo who cares, if you cant enjoy what it is that you are doing in a GAME then why continue doing it? Hardore or casual, if the game interests you then the amount of XP gained or lost is irrelevant compared to the enjoyment factor of the game.
I play Vanguard. I'm not a fan of the death penalty, but as long as I can run back for my corpse and get most of it back...I have no problem with the system.
Trouble is...this game is pretty bug-shot...on Monday I had off of work and my PC blue-screened or dropped to desktop 9 times. On three of those occasions I came back and my gravestone wasn't on the map.... I suspect it had dropped below the world plane, because my character came back a few times under the world, not on top of it.
Regardless, I lost full exp all three times....and I actually had a net loss of experience for the day..despite playing for over 6 hours....
I was discouraged. So much so...that on Tuesday and Wed all I did was run around leveling up my harvesting..because I was a bit dispirited with the waste of time on Monday.... and didnt want to waste more.
So on Thursday, after the patch..all my guildmates are marveling at how much exp they now get for quests. I go join them... and I started at about level 19.50. Within 2 hours we completed about... 6 or 7 quests (and the corresponding kills for them) and I dinged level 20.
I was ecstatic to reach 20 so quickly and I completely forgot about my previous depression of the past 2 days. I look forward to playing more tonight even though I suspect they'll back off the quest exp some by then. Prior to last night I was seriously thinking of either giving EvE a try, going back to DAOC, or waiting for LOTR.
So, say what you will about the exp increase being a bad idea....it will keep me playing...and I'm really not that hateful guys...you'll like having me and my money in this game.
And I wouldnt mind the death penalty being reduced or removed until they can resolve these issues of missing gravestones after a crash......then they can bring it back....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
.....i noticed today that quests have gotten an increase in xp....or so the patch notes say. also people are already complaining about the debt which occures when you die. trust me when i say this.....DO NOT MAKE THIS GAME EASIER". i understand that the game is buggy...and the crashes are hurting people. bare with them. rather than adjust the xp levels or remove debt until they are fixed....just fix them. i think we need to be patient and understand this is a great game that needs adjustments. if i wanted a run of the mill game i'd go play wow.... if you start dumbing it down.....you are going to get the wrong type of player and lose the right kind....for this type of game anyway. i read through the startup booklet...and it is obvious to me what Sigil is trying to do with this game. don't panic now....it's true all the impatient players will leave and start posting about how laggy the game is and how hard it is when they lose xp when they die....and all that stuff.....that comes with the territory. every great game has these players. if however the game stays true....these players will become less and less and slowly more loyal and mature players will find there way here, especially considering this game is on the breaking edge for hardware you need. i think it's a great game......keep it complex!!!!!! kuzseamer
/agree
Painful death, experience debt and risk get the ole blood-pumping while adventuring. This does it for me in a MMORPG. If I could continue to increase the risk-reward ratio I would.
I like the xp reward increase for quests. As a sourcer with my aoe spells, there was absolutly no reason for me to bother with quests unless there was some reward I wanted. I got xp much much fastter just finding close mobs as spamming the aoe spells. For example I made lvl 12 to 13 in 40 minutes by killing around 600 lvl 9's. I know its a low lvl, but I'm at 16 now and I can still do the same thing, though obviously not as fast. The increase gives me a reason to bother questing, which I like. I LOVE questing, but I need a reason to do so.
I'm a fan of the death xp penalty. If you die, there should be a punishment. YOU DIED. The beetle KILLED YOU. Seems harsh for those who started playing games with WoW( my fav death penalty was in GW, nothing like trying that boss with minus 30% or something rediculous like that), but way back in the day, games punished you for sucking ass, like making you use another quarter lol. I dunno, maybe I'm a glutton for punishment, but I hated feeling no problems with being killed in WoW. When I die I wanna pissed off for a reason other than its gonna take me an extra 10 minutes to lvl before mommy makes me go to sleep.
Now dying while bugging or chunking or something sucks, but I'd rather have that problem, than not have any penalty at all.
xp debt is a negative for some....and rightly so....some don'tlike that. but there are so few mmo's that are complicated and have tons of futur potential like this one.....let us old folks enjoy this.....all i ask for is one game that really makes things tough and since this one is already on taht track....... kuzseamer
/signed.
I really do hope they fix the game, that way the people who like xp debtt, corpse runs, slow leveling and forced grouping can all play it and the rest of us can enjoy pain free gaming.
The rest of us? You mean people who have admitted to being basically paid trolls? I don't think you speak for very many people Jacky boy. Hate to be so harsh, but hey, you certainly don't pull any punches do you?
I have solo'd everything in Vanguard so far except 2 named mobs so far. That has been my experience. But then I'm a casual hardcore. :P As for the slow levelling, umm, hurray? I don't want to get to max level in a month of casual play, call me crazy.
I will also say that I play on the Varking team PVP server and I haven't had so much fun shooting the breeze in /ooc since HHK in EQ. Last nights discussion was best band ever. My vote is Beyond Possession, most people will never have heard of them. Theywere the best band ever.
Comments
This is why people are leaving VG in droves already. This isn't about VG being 'ez mode' or 'hardcore' - its about the game being a festering bugheap.
It is insulting to people who want to play NinjaPirate Survival Online to feel like they are second rate citizens worthy of a second rate game.
I play Vanguard. I'm not a fan of the death penalty, but as long as I can run back for my corpse and get most of it back...I have no problem with the system.
Trouble is...this game is pretty bug-shot...on Monday I had off of work and my PC blue-screened or dropped to desktop 9 times. On three of those occasions I came back and my gravestone wasn't on the map.... I suspect it had dropped below the world plane, because my character came back a few times under the world, not on top of it.
Regardless, I lost full exp all three times....and I actually had a net loss of experience for the day..despite playing for over 6 hours....
I was discouraged. So much so...that on Tuesday and Wed all I did was run around leveling up my harvesting..because I was a bit dispirited with the waste of time on Monday.... and didnt want to waste more.
So on Thursday, after the patch..all my guildmates are marveling at how much exp they now get for quests. I go join them... and I started at about level 19.50. Within 2 hours we completed about... 6 or 7 quests (and the corresponding kills for them) and I dinged level 20.
I was ecstatic to reach 20 so quickly and I completely forgot about my previous depression of the past 2 days. I look forward to playing more tonight even though I suspect they'll back off the quest exp some by then. Prior to last night I was seriously thinking of either giving EvE a try, going back to DAOC, or waiting for LOTR.
So, say what you will about the exp increase being a bad idea....it will keep me playing...and I'm really not that hateful guys...you'll like having me and my money in this game.
And I wouldnt mind the death penalty being reduced or removed until they can resolve these issues of missing gravestones after a crash......then they can bring it back....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
/agree
Painful death, experience debt and risk get the ole blood-pumping while adventuring. This does it for me in a MMORPG. If I could continue to increase the risk-reward ratio I would.
I like the xp reward increase for quests. As a sourcer with my aoe spells, there was absolutly no reason for me to bother with quests unless there was some reward I wanted. I got xp much much fastter just finding close mobs as spamming the aoe spells. For example I made lvl 12 to 13 in 40 minutes by killing around 600 lvl 9's. I know its a low lvl, but I'm at 16 now and I can still do the same thing, though obviously not as fast. The increase gives me a reason to bother questing, which I like. I LOVE questing, but I need a reason to do so.
I'm a fan of the death xp penalty. If you die, there should be a punishment. YOU DIED. The beetle KILLED YOU. Seems harsh for those who started playing games with WoW( my fav death penalty was in GW, nothing like trying that boss with minus 30% or something rediculous like that), but way back in the day, games punished you for sucking ass, like making you use another quarter lol. I dunno, maybe I'm a glutton for punishment, but I hated feeling no problems with being killed in WoW. When I die I wanna pissed off for a reason other than its gonna take me an extra 10 minutes to lvl before mommy makes me go to sleep.
Now dying while bugging or chunking or something sucks, but I'd rather have that problem, than not have any penalty at all.
FLAME ON!
/signed.
I really do hope they fix the game, that way the people who like xp debtt, corpse runs, slow leveling and forced grouping can all play it and the rest of us can enjoy pain free gaming.
The rest of us? You mean people who have admitted to being basically paid trolls? I don't think you speak for very many people Jacky boy. Hate to be so harsh, but hey, you certainly don't pull any punches do you?
I have solo'd everything in Vanguard so far except 2 named mobs so far. That has been my experience. But then I'm a casual hardcore. :P As for the slow levelling, umm, hurray? I don't want to get to max level in a month of casual play, call me crazy.
I will also say that I play on the Varking team PVP server and I haven't had so much fun shooting the breeze in /ooc since HHK in EQ. Last nights discussion was best band ever. My vote is Beyond Possession, most people will never have heard of them. Theywere the best band ever.