So the less content a game has, the more you can create for yourself. The more of the game you have to design for yourself. the more sandbox it is. Pen and paper role play is immensely sandbox, you make the world, you describe it all and populate it all. The opposite of sandbox is a fleshed out and well written game. The graphics have all been designed, the NPC's written and programmed. The control over the enviroment scripted to facilitate good gameplay. Having user controlable enviroments, or being able to build your own houses and model your own NPc's IS content. Everybit as much as Capture the Flag games, skill tree's, scripted quests, auction houses and PvP arenas. It's not one or the other. When we say sandbox games have no content, we don't mean that this isn't game content. We mean that this isn't very much game content. That bit is good, but where is the rest of it? Standards have progressed. The bar has been raised. Sandbox games have these but the other games don't? The new games have much more of everything. The sandbox factor is still present in many current generation MMOs. Only there is other stuff to do also. That other stuff tends to be more fun and the "sandbox" elements, so amazing in their day, aren't getting played. They are still there. They still exist in new games. You are open to play the game that way. Only not everybody wants to. Now that there are so many, many more extra gameplay features in each title, people in the same game are simply not restricted to it like they used to be. Their options are less limited, not more limited. There are too many great game writers, highly professional in their work, with a brilliant understanding of what makes a great game for me to need to put in a load of input of my own. Too many exciting ways to have fun in WoW to spend all my time capturing the enemy fortresses. The option is still there...but I have many other equally fun options to fo also. The auction house isn't new anymore, it isn't the defining feature of the game. The latest gimmick, the height of MMO technology, the be all and end all of gaming. It's just par for the course. People defend sandbox, because it is an old friend. An MMO they grew up with. The champion of a previous generation of MMO's. A game they love/loved. My dad swears that black and white movies are better than colour. It's an emotional thing. That was his heyday. In it's day, when computer power was somewhat more limited, it was either giant sandbox multiplayer worlds or intrincately scripted single player worlds. Things have evolved. This is no longer the case. It isn't either or, it hasn't been for sometime. Sandbox isn't dead, it's been assimilated.
Interesting angle but I don't really agree with it.
As others have already mentioned 'sandbox' is not really a classification for games but more of a subjective quantity or an ideology. As in some games are more of a sandbox than others... All MMORPGs have some freedom of choice but some have more than others.
I also don't think that your pen and paper game example is a good one. Players making the GAME and players determining the GAME PLAY are two separate things. Your example is something like an RPG construction set; players build the framework. Whereas with a sandbox, the framework is already set and the players influence what happens next.
So the less content a game has, the more you can create for yourself. The more of the game you have to design for yourself. the more sandbox it is. Pen and paper role play is immensely sandbox, you make the world, you describe it all and populate it all. The opposite of sandbox is a fleshed out and well written game. The graphics have all been designed, the NPC's written and programmed. The control over the enviroment scripted to facilitate good gameplay. Having user controlable enviroments, or being able to build your own houses and model your own NPc's IS content. Everybit as much as Capture the Flag games, skill tree's, scripted quests, auction houses and PvP arenas. It's not one or the other. When we say sandbox games have no content, we don't mean that this isn't game content. We mean that this isn't very much game content. That bit is good, but where is the rest of it? Standards have progressed. The bar has been raised. Sandbox games have these but the other games don't? The new games have much more of everything. The sandbox factor is still present in many current generation MMOs. Only there is other stuff to do also. That other stuff tends to be more fun and the "sandbox" elements, so amazing in their day, aren't getting played. They are still there. They still exist in new games. You are open to play the game that way. Only not everybody wants to. Now that there are so many, many more extra gameplay features in each title, people in the same game are simply not restricted to it like they used to be. Their options are less limited, not more limited. There are too many great game writers, highly professional in their work, with a brilliant understanding of what makes a great game for me to need to put in a load of input of my own. Too many exciting ways to have fun in WoW to spend all my time capturing the enemy fortresses. The option is still there...but I have many other equally fun options to fo also. The auction house isn't new anymore, it isn't the defining feature of the game. The latest gimmick, the height of MMO technology, the be all and end all of gaming. It's just par for the course. People defend sandbox, because it is an old friend. An MMO they grew up with. The champion of a previous generation of MMO's. A game they love/loved. My dad swears that black and white movies are better than colour. It's an emotional thing. That was his heyday. In it's day, when computer power was somewhat more limited, it was either giant sandbox multiplayer worlds or intrincately scripted single player worlds. Things have evolved. This is no longer the case. It isn't either or, it hasn't been for sometime. Sandbox isn't dead, it's been assimilated.
Interesting angle but I don't really agree with it.
As others have already mentioned 'sandbox' is not really a classification for games but more of a subjective quantity or an ideology. As in some games are more of a sandbox than others... All MMORPGs have some freedom of choice but some have more than others.
I also don't think that your pen and paper game example is a good one. Players making the GAME and players determining the GAME PLAY are two separate things. Your example is something like an RPG construction set; players build the framework. Whereas with a sandbox, the framework is already set and the players influence what happens next.
Thats a good way to put it. However, what happens next, can be on a persional, group (the people around you, like the city you belong to, or guild) or world.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Oh I agree with you op, there can be more content that most games out there simply by player made content, the thing is... you have to have the props to play with. Give the players the props (example: like drinks in a tavern that will get you drunk, to darts in that tavern) and you will have content.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
SWG was the only sandbox game I experienced and I thought it was great pre cu. Even the cu was tolerable but it ruined the pve game for me because it made things harder to kill and thus loot was harder to come by in a game that already made it so loot was fairly rare. Exceptional weapons looted from night sisters comes to mind.. I played that game for about 10 months straight, everyday and never looted one personally.. I had to barter 3 premium pearls for a exceptional pike which had massive dmg, 300-1200 damage when the closets crafted version only was about 120-450 dmg. This thing chopped down cloth wearing non master defender-jedi in 4 hits and it was great in pvp vs jedi.
Now a lot of people will read that and say ya just one more thing that was totally unbalanced about the game.. Well no because riflemen and pistolers cut me down pretty bad. Everything had its counter, people were just too dumb to figure it out half the time and whined on the forums about it.
One guy posted in here about the next wow killer will be a hybrid swg/wow game and I agree with him. It will topple wow and any other mmo out there.
They wrecked swg because they wanted wow type sub numbers and thought the IP "star wars" had potential to dwarf wow, and it may have but not with Jeff Freemans NGE.
The first company who takes most of the elements from the original sandbox SWG and puts it into a fantasy theme or even sci-fi, will reap millions of subs if its relatively bug free and revolves around faction wars where people need to loot hunt (PVE) to find rare components to take to a player crafter to make a weapon, who then uses it to compete in pvp, and also has the class inter-dependancies and same hybrid class structure which also only offers 1 character per server. This multiple characters per server thing is crap. Yes in strict class games like eq2 its nice to be able to try other classes without deleting the one you have but in a game set up where you can change professions in like 4 days I see no need for it.
Plus it offers you to make a name for yourself in your virtual game world. You can be known for being a solid pvper or known for being a trash talking punk etc.. There was no hiding unless you had multiple accounts but the majority of us couldn't afford it.. So in most cases you treated people like you would in real life because you cant delete your life and start a new as easily as in a game.. Well bad example, but you should get the picture.
One of the things SWG was missing though IMO was high end pve content. Like guild raids and such.. You had the corvette and that was about it.. You did it a few times and wanted more.. The more never came though till it was too late, WoW was released same time as JTL which only offered space content. ROTW came 9 months later or so and had a few name bosses but again not enough high end pve content. The game devs relied on people pvpin to entertain themselves which was fun but didn't have mass appeal, therefor its sub numbers dwindled.
I think what really addicted me to that game was standing in mos eisely one day (in july 2004 when they first offered game trials)..I was standing there noobed out in bone armor and saw this riflemen totaly own some guy roleplaying as a stormtrooper. This guy was decked out in the faction bought storm tropper gear that had crap stats etc.. This master riflemen/?? comes whipping out of the star port and just owns this guy haha.. I was hooked from that point on. I dedicated all of my time to pve hunting for money, weapons, rares to eventualy beable to compete in pvp.. Damn what a shame it is to see what swg is now a days..
It is totally possible to be a healing, spear using, chef that has a thing for breading pink ponies.
If I ever get to make the MMO I want to build, there will be a pony breeding NPC called Mr Bloodworth:-)
lol!
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Comments
As others have already mentioned 'sandbox' is not really a classification for games but more of a subjective quantity or an ideology. As in some games are more of a sandbox than others... All MMORPGs have some freedom of choice but some have more than others.
I also don't think that your pen and paper game example is a good one. Players making the GAME and players determining the GAME PLAY are two separate things. Your example is something like an RPG construction set; players build the framework. Whereas with a sandbox, the framework is already set and the players influence what happens next.
As others have already mentioned 'sandbox' is not really a classification for games but more of a subjective quantity or an ideology. As in some games are more of a sandbox than others... All MMORPGs have some freedom of choice but some have more than others.
I also don't think that your pen and paper game example is a good one. Players making the GAME and players determining the GAME PLAY are two separate things. Your example is something like an RPG construction set; players build the framework. Whereas with a sandbox, the framework is already set and the players influence what happens next.
Thats a good way to put it. However, what happens next, can be on a persional, group (the people around you, like the city you belong to, or guild) or world.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Now a lot of people will read that and say ya just one more thing that was totally unbalanced about the game.. Well no because riflemen and pistolers cut me down pretty bad. Everything had its counter, people were just too dumb to figure it out half the time and whined on the forums about it.
One guy posted in here about the next wow killer will be a hybrid swg/wow game and I agree with him. It will topple wow and any other mmo out there.
They wrecked swg because they wanted wow type sub numbers and thought the IP "star wars" had potential to dwarf wow, and it may have but not with Jeff Freemans NGE.
The first company who takes most of the elements from the original sandbox SWG and puts it into a fantasy theme or even sci-fi, will reap millions of subs if its relatively bug free and revolves around faction wars where people need to loot hunt (PVE) to find rare components to take to a player crafter to make a weapon, who then uses it to compete in pvp, and also has the class inter-dependancies and same hybrid class structure which also only offers 1 character per server. This multiple characters per server thing is crap. Yes in strict class games like eq2 its nice to be able to try other classes without deleting the one you have but in a game set up where you can change professions in like 4 days I see no need for it.
Plus it offers you to make a name for yourself in your virtual game world. You can be known for being a solid pvper or known for being a trash talking punk etc.. There was no hiding unless you had multiple accounts but the majority of us couldn't afford it.. So in most cases you treated people like you would in real life because you cant delete your life and start a new as easily as in a game.. Well bad example, but you should get the picture.
One of the things SWG was missing though IMO was high end pve content. Like guild raids and such.. You had the corvette and that was about it.. You did it a few times and wanted more.. The more never came though till it was too late, WoW was released same time as JTL which only offered space content. ROTW came 9 months later or so and had a few name bosses but again not enough high end pve content. The game devs relied on people pvpin to entertain themselves which was fun but didn't have mass appeal, therefor its sub numbers dwindled.
I think what really addicted me to that game was standing in mos eisely one day (in july 2004 when they first offered game trials)..I was standing there noobed out in bone armor and saw this riflemen totaly own some guy roleplaying as a stormtrooper. This guy was decked out in the faction bought storm tropper gear that had crap stats etc.. This master riflemen/?? comes whipping out of the star port and just owns this guy haha.. I was hooked from that point on. I dedicated all of my time to pve hunting for money, weapons, rares to eventualy beable to compete in pvp.. Damn what a shame it is to see what swg is now a days..
If I ever get to make the MMO I want to build, there will be a pony breeding NPC called Mr Bloodworth:-)
DarkSpace Developer - Play DarkSpace - Play For Free!
Medusa Engine SDK - Free MMO Game Engine
Hampton Roads/East Coast Video Gamers Association
If I ever get to make the MMO I want to build, there will be a pony breeding NPC called Mr Bloodworth:-)
lol!----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me