This thread is exactly why I believe that beta players should pay to beta. These projects are getting way too big and costly, way too fast. I was reading that if you wanted to bring a AAA MMORPG to market in three years, you best have $60 to $100 million starting capital to make it happen or you'll fall short. That is an aweful lot of money to gamble with when the average game only gets about 150,000 if it makes it to market. That is only about $2,250,000 a month in subscription fees. It takes a long time to make back $100 million at that rate. Let's face it, they all will not be WoW with nearly 10 million subscribers. Too many times all you get is beta jumpers that have no desire to pay to play a game. All they want is the next free ride. People say you shouldn't pay to beta a game. I beg to differ. Lets look at DDO and Vanguard. Both of those games release beta games that the fans are going to be paying $15 a month for at least year or more until these games are "right". Why do fans do this? Because these games have potential. I would argue that the game has just as much potential in beta as in go live when they release a game in the state that say Vanguard was released in. Have 25,000 pre-order boxes that are guaranteed beta slots starting with your first stage of closed beta. Let it be known that it is beta and what they can expect, server wipes and all. Have the people pay $10 a month during beta. This will more than pay for your bandwidth and the interests on your loans so you can keep the development going. At the conclusion of beta you can thank your beta testers with signed art work, signed copies of the game, or even stock in the company for helping you financially through beta. There are many ways to thank them. You'd be surprised how many people that would pay monthly to beta a game. Not only do you build a loyal fanbase, you keep out the beta jumpers that only wanted a free ride anyway. Does it mean the competition will have access to your game faster? I doubt it, because they are already in your beta. People that want to know about your game are gonna find ways to get in. My whole idea for people paying to beta is to keep companies like Sigil with games that have HUGE potential from running out of money and being forced to launch in a early beta state. Another year, and I believe this game would have been the next gorilla on the block. Now, AoC and WAR have a huge opportunity to pick up a lot of disgruntled gamers.
Great idea... Be upfront... I reckon folks would pay to beta... At least try it, they might not, then just go back to same old way of doing things, rushing to market, and lying through teeth... But to package the crap, put it on store shelves, just seems like a counter-productive expense to me. The companies don't even seem to innovate with their finance structures... You have no hope in hell for actual product innovation. To my mind, the last major innovation for the genre was DDO, unfortunately, it kinda backfired... but at least it tried, and provided a lesson for the industry.DDO had a lot of problems for sure. But they was an basic issue in their philosophy which kinda got missed. They proposed a game where advancement was done only by questing. To that end they needed a hell of a lot of quests. IMO, 1000 quests as a basic minimum. IIRC, they released with 135 quests of which you could repeat at different levels of difficulty (Which I don't consider different quests).
Vangaurd is not a game of skill. I think certain types of players need to give the impression that it is a game of skill. It might be to stroke their own ego or to try to impress other people. Maybe they are embarrassed that video games are considered by many to be a childish pasttime so they need to make it about skill to distance themselves from all those other childish games. Which is why I think they keep telling the kiddies to go back to WoW.
Depends what you define as "skill". If you mean physical prowess/dexterity in pushing keystrokes you are correct....average abilities will suffice to play.
But Vanguard does require the patience to pay it, a bit of intelligence in that you have to figure out where the best place is to level you character at a given moment. If you chose to go down the crafting or diplomacy paths you'll be employing some different strategies to succeed.
VG might not bring a whole lot new to the genre...but then..what game really has? And in most cases when the truely new shows up...its rejected by most of us.....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have never played Vanguard myself but I doubt it's all that hard to really play most MMO'S are easy. You playing against a NPC so after you learn it's actions it becomes simple to defeat.
As for wow it is easy and to the people who talked about when mc was first being done MC was so easy for most guilds it got to point most us could do 6 man raids in MC and many Farmed MC with 2 to 3 people. It wasn't a real challenge.
Also wow pvp is a joke. wow is a game built on easy levels and gear. But once you have all the best gear there nothing left to do in the game. It progresses to slow in the form new raids ect. In fact the BC didn't really add much to the game. just a bunch raids and tons of open areas oh and flying mounts that can only be used in the new world. Pretty boring.
Fact is not really any games out now have a good challenging pvp system with good rewards and none have a good pk system. Many have descent raids. but none offers more then other ones does raid wise except for more gear.
Well I have found that carebears generally respond to love. I believe the carebear cousins also enjoy love,kindness, and happiness. Afterall they are CAREbears, so love them and they wil change. Oh hold on ... I think some chick tried to do that with me once and it didn't work.
Vangaurd is not a game of skill. I think certain types of players need to give the impression that it is a game of skill. It might be to stroke their own ego or to try to impress other people. Maybe they are embarrassed that video games are considered by many to be a childish pasttime so they need to make it about skill to distance themselves from all those other childish games. Which is why I think they keep telling the kiddies to go back to WoW.
Depends what you define as "skill". If you mean physical prowess/dexterity in pushing keystrokes you are correct....average abilities will suffice to play.
But Vanguard does require the patience to pay it, a bit of intelligence in that you have to figure out where the best place is to level you character at a given moment. If you chose to go down the crafting or diplomacy paths you'll be employing some different strategies to succeed.
VG might not bring a whole lot new to the genre...but then..what game really has? And in most cases when the truely new shows up...its rejected by most of us.....
We get the games that we deserve it seems.....
Patience maybe due to griding. Intelligence as in don't be stupid rather than "Kyleran is a genius" then yes. But if you really mean it as in you have to be so smart to pay and "look at me" then no, you are just stroking your own ego.
"VG might not bring a whole lot new to the genre...but then..what game really has? " is that the last grasp? I dont' recall other games claiming to be third generation game. So basically either way you are wiping it you are saying VG is like the other game. So why play it?
In WoW you can right-click the enemy and go do something else and still win. In VG it's constant use of various abilities which you must use to survive. Thus is the game more difficult.
This is a patently stupid thing to say.
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly never walked away during combat in WoW. And when I'm in combat, I'm doing more than just standing there whacking away at the mob. My Paladin wouldn't be very effective if I wasn't in there activating her seals and judgements, and since I duo all the time-- even in dungeons-- keeping the aggro on me and away from my partner is key. There's also the added role of healing them or myself if we get into trouble.
If I just right clicked a mob and went AFK to do something else, then things would go very wrong very quickly. Why? Because I have to constantly use various spells and abilities to be able to survive. Just like Vanguard.
A friend of mine would duel box an alt while he was in a raid. He would right click a mob and then let it go. Every now and then he would hit another button on the second comp to heal or buff, but not often; he was doing it with a pally. He would also lvl his pally like this while he grinded rep with his hunter. One button would send his pet and another would start autoshooting. He would grind rep like this while surfing the web or making something to eat.
I know with my mage it was 99% of the time just spamming the one key, and I would grind rep in the same fashion as my friend with my hunter. Sometimes in raids I would accually hit the 2 or 3 key for a little fun. Honestly, I have to hit more buttons to provide food and water then I do to grind.
Not every class can do this but enough of them are just one or two button spam encounters with mobs when grinding rep. The only time it gets any kind of complicated is in a raid, and even then the raids are so horribly scripted that using a program that gives raid warnings when mobs are about to use a particular ability is neccasary for just about every guild. Raiding was so tough that I used to have friends over on the weekends, get smashed, and raid while I was hanging out with friends.
The combat system in VG is more complex then any other MMO I've played, but mostly when you group. While grinding isn't as mundane as WoW is, it's really not that much better, and if you're fighting even lvl 2 dot mobs you'll be spamming the same buttons over and over, just more of them. In a group the combat system really shines, with abilities applying debuffs that can be played on by members of your group to increase dmg. When a group is working in harmony it's a really impressive thing and no scripted boss encounter in WoW can even come close to the depth and complexity of group combat in VG.
VG is built with the group in mind, and while it is possible to solo it isn't as rewarding or interesting as if you go at it with a couple of other people. The problem is either finding people to play with, and the mindset created by WoW that you should be able to grind through the game solo with the same ease and be on the same footing at 60 as most everyone else. The later mindeset is kind of funny to considering that if you group in WoW and grind in dungeons you can lvl faster and be ahead of the curve with better gear when you hit 60, but the ease of lvling solo makes it more appealing to a larger audience. It's a different type of game and those that really love the way that WoW moves you along will most likely not take a shine to VG
The differences between these two games are so vast but people seem to insist on making the comparison between the two. WoW didn't create the combat system so many people are used to, and they in no way improved on it. That combat system was created long before WoW was even a concept. I never played EQ1 but from what I understand that's the game that created the model for the combat and interface system everyone is familliar with now, and VG has taken it a step further with some of the combat mechanics. Comparine these two games is silly, especially when you consider that the guy that is behind VG is the one that created a lot of the stuff you find in WoW and now in VG itself.
I think VG intent is to be more like UO with a familliar combat and interface system drawn from EQ1 and made accessable to millions of gamers thanks to WoW.
Credit WoW with opening the market and bringing MMO's into the mainstream, not for creating a complex and intuitive UI and combat system, that honor, if I'm not mistaken, goes to the creators of EQ and VG.
I have never played Vanguard myself but I doubt it's all that hard to really play most MMO'S are easy. You playing against a NPC so after you learn it's actions it becomes simple to defeat.
As for wow it is easy and to the people who talked about when mc was first being done MC was so easy for most guilds it got to point most us could do 6 man raids in MC and many Farmed MC with 2 to 3 people. It wasn't a real challenge.
Also wow pvp is a joke. wow is a game built on easy levels and gear. But once you have all the best gear there nothing left to do in the game. It progresses to slow in the form new raids ect. In fact the BC didn't really add much to the game. just a bunch raids and tons of open areas oh and flying mounts that can only be used in the new world. Pretty boring.
Fact is not really any games out now have a good challenging pvp system with good rewards and none have a good pk system. Many have descent raids. but none offers more then other ones does raid wise except for more gear.
1. You're dumb.
2. MC is not farmed by 2-3 people.
3. You've never played VG, so why do you have the right to doubt anything?
4. You're dumb.
E8400@ 4.0Ghz ~ Saphire HD 4870 ~ 6GB DDR2@ 860MhZ
A friend of mine would duel box an alt while he was in a raid. He would right click a mob and then let it go. Every now and then he would hit another button on the second comp to heal or buff, but not often; he was doing it with a pally. He would also lvl his pally like this while he grinded rep with his hunter. One button would send his pet and another would start autoshooting. He would grind rep like this while surfing the web or making something to eat.
Just because your friend took the easy, mindless, route doesn't mean all of us do. I actually play my characters. If I'm going to invest the time and money into a game, I'm going to actively participate, not just write a bunch of macros and scripts to do everything for me while I surf the Internet and eat a sandwich.
A friend of mine would duel box an alt while he was in a raid. He would right click a mob and then let it go. Every now and then he would hit another button on the second comp to heal or buff, but not often; he was doing it with a pally. He would also lvl his pally like this while he grinded rep with his hunter. One button would send his pet and another would start autoshooting. He would grind rep like this while surfing the web or making something to eat.
Just because your friend took the easy, mindless, route doesn't mean all of us do. I actually play my characters. If I'm going to invest the time and money into a game, I'm going to actively participate, not just write a bunch of macros and scripts to do everything for me while I surf the Internet and eat a sandwich.Edit : Nvm, I misunderstood the post you quoted.
In WoW you can right-click the enemy and go do something else and still win. In VG it's constant use of various abilities which you must use to survive. Thus is the game more difficult.
This is a patently stupid thing to say.
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly never walked away during combat in WoW. And when I'm in combat, I'm doing more than just standing there whacking away at the mob. My Paladin wouldn't be very effective if I wasn't in there activating her seals and judgements, and since I duo all the time-- even in dungeons-- keeping the aggro on me and away from my partner is key. There's also the added role of healing them or myself if we get into trouble.
If I just right clicked a mob and went AFK to do something else, then things would go very wrong very quickly. Why? Because I have to constantly use various spells and abilities to be able to survive. Just like Vanguard.
I didn't acutally walk away but I didn't have to touch the keyboard. I didn't mean when grouping either since my friends would be very mad at me if I didn't do anything.
I was lvl 34 when doing that stuff, facing mobs at the same level, with a priest. Don't tell me that I actually have a better understanding what makes a good character than anyone else, just after 1 month of play.
Don't remember but I had about 1500 armor, a wand which did 24.6 dps, 1500hp, 2600 mana. Of course it didn't work on every mob at the same lvl or below. Sometimes I had to heal myself too. Bottomline is: I didn't have to be very active in combat and it took time to kill things (had an warlock at 32 and a shaman at 20, so It's just not the priest)
I actually managed to beat a lvl 32 hunter and it's pet and almost an 34 shaman by myself in the arena (no it doesn't have anything to do with this but it's one thing about WoW I'm kinda proud about still being kind newb an all)
In WoW you can right-click the enemy and go do something else and still win. In VG it's constant use of various abilities which you must use to survive. Thus is the game more difficult.
This is a patently stupid thing to say.
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly never walked away during combat in WoW. And when I'm in combat, I'm doing more than just standing there whacking away at the mob. My Paladin wouldn't be very effective if I wasn't in there activating her seals and judgements, and since I duo all the time-- even in dungeons-- keeping the aggro on me and away from my partner is key. There's also the added role of healing them or myself if we get into trouble.
If I just right clicked a mob and went AFK to do something else, then things would go very wrong very quickly. Why? Because I have to constantly use various spells and abilities to be able to survive. Just like Vanguard.
I didn't acutally walk away but I didn't have to touch the keyboard. I didn't mean when grouping either since my friends would be very mad at me if I didn't do anything.
I was lvl 34 when doing that stuff, facing mobs at the same level, with a priest. Don't tell me that I actually have a better understanding what makes a good character than anyone else, just after 1 month of play.
Don't remember but I had about 1500 armor, a wand which did 24.6 dps, 1500hp, 2600 mana. Of course it didn't work on every mob at the same lvl or below. Sometimes I had to heal myself too. Bottomline is: I didn't have to be very active in combat and it took time to kill things (had an warlock at 32 and a shaman at 20, so It's just not the priest)
I actually managed to beat a lvl 32 hunter and it's pet and almost an 34 shaman by myself in the arena (no it doesn't have anything to do with this but it's one thing about WoW I'm kinda proud about still being kind newb an all)
The point is, you can't generalize about what it takes in a game. Not everyone has the same playstyle.
I don't solo. I've always found it boring in MMO's. If I'm online, and my boyfriend isn't wanting to play just yet, I do trade skills, or look through the Auction House for weapons or armor, and see if I can get a decent deal on something, or I engage in chat in whatever city I'm in, or some combination of the three. About the only game I've ever actively soloed in is City of Heroes, and even then, I'll do a small handful of missions if my guildmates aren't on, then log. Soloing bores me to tears.
I'm always grouped when I go out to play in WoW. Always. I can't just right click and walk away, or have macros and scripts do everything for me while I eat and post on message boards. I have to actively be there, in front of my keyboard, aware of my character's surroundings, and conscious of what I'm doing.
I don't pretend to have any greater understanding of the classes I play than someone who macros their way up to 70, but I would personally find their playstyle pointless. I'm a hands-on player, and have to actually be in control when I play.
In WoW you can right-click the enemy and go do something else and still win. In VG it's constant use of various abilities which you must use to survive. Thus is the game more difficult.
This is a patently stupid thing to say.
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly never walked away during combat in WoW. And when I'm in combat, I'm doing more than just standing there whacking away at the mob. My Paladin wouldn't be very effective if I wasn't in there activating her seals and judgements, and since I duo all the time-- even in dungeons-- keeping the aggro on me and away from my partner is key. There's also the added role of healing them or myself if we get into trouble.
If I just right clicked a mob and went AFK to do something else, then things would go very wrong very quickly. Why? Because I have to constantly use various spells and abilities to be able to survive. Just like Vanguard.
I didn't acutally walk away but I didn't have to touch the keyboard. I didn't mean when grouping either since my friends would be very mad at me if I didn't do anything.
I was lvl 34 when doing that stuff, facing mobs at the same level, with a priest. Don't tell me that I actually have a better understanding what makes a good character than anyone else, just after 1 month of play.
Don't remember but I had about 1500 armor, a wand which did 24.6 dps, 1500hp, 2600 mana. Of course it didn't work on every mob at the same lvl or below. Sometimes I had to heal myself too. Bottomline is: I didn't have to be very active in combat and it took time to kill things (had an warlock at 32 and a shaman at 20, so It's just not the priest)
I actually managed to beat a lvl 32 hunter and it's pet and almost an 34 shaman by myself in the arena (no it doesn't have anything to do with this but it's one thing about WoW I'm kinda proud about still being kind newb an all)
The point is, you can't generalize about what it takes in a game. Not everyone has the same playstyle.
I don't solo. I've always found it boring in MMO's. If I'm online, and my boyfriend isn't wanting to play just yet, I do trade skills, or look through the Auction House for weapons or armor, and see if I can get a decent deal on something, or I engage in chat in whatever city I'm in, or some combination of the three. About the only game I've ever actively soloed in is City of Heroes, and even then, I'll do a small handful of missions if my guildmates aren't on, then log. Soloing bores me to tears.
I'm always grouped when I go out to play in WoW. Always. I can't just right click and walk away, or have macros and scripts do everything for me while I eat and post on message boards. I have to actively be there, in front of my keyboard, aware of my character's surroundings, and conscious of what I'm doing.
I don't pretend to have any greater understanding of the classes I play than someone who macros their way up to 70, but I would personally find their playstyle pointless. I'm a hands-on player, and have to actually be in control when I play.
The "game-style" I mentioned isn't really a style if you think about it. Of course I didn't played the game like that, it would have been to slow. Discovered the possibilty as a way to conserve and even build up mana in fights.
I have never used a macro in that game or any other game for that matter, I understand what your'e saying though. I didn't like that gamestyle so thats why I quit playing. That and the fact that soloing was way to restricted. I did play with friends over teamspeak, which made the game fun.
I didn't care much of the surrondings since they made me wanna puke . No seriously I like that smiley, I like it alot. Why do I like it? Well I dunno.. I think it sticks out from the rest of the smileys, plus it's damn funny looking. "It's round, got two eyes and a mouth like all the other smiley, you say." Well I just plain like it...
(sorry for that last part but I thought it was to good of a comparison to the whole "I hate VG and so should you" thing. I know it was the wrong thread for it aswell but... hey wtf, I'm tired)
Start by not calling them a "carebear". People respond better when they aren't addressed in such a condescending fashion.
Exactly. I saw the title for this and I didn't bother reading the opening post but I did check out the post responding to it. I've gotten into the habit now that when someone calls someone else a "carebear" and it's in such a condescending fashion (which the very title of this thread is) I just ignore what that person has to say. If they don't have respect or the consideration to actually address people decently then what they say isn't worth reading.
Just to note, the term "carebear" is used far to much and inappropriately I feel.
Vangaurd is not a game of skill. I think certain types of players need to give the impression that it is a game of skill. It might be to stroke their own ego or to try to impress other people. Maybe they are embarrassed that video games are considered by many to be a childish pasttime so they need to make it about skill to distance themselves from all those other childish games. Which is why I think they keep telling the kiddies to go back to WoW.
I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
Vangaurd is not a game of skill. I think certain types of players need to give the impression that it is a game of skill. It might be to stroke their own ego or to try to impress other people. Maybe they are embarrassed that video games are considered by many to be a childish pasttime so they need to make it about skill to distance themselves from all those other childish games. Which is why I think they keep telling the kiddies to go back to WoW.
I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
Originally posted by anarchyart I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
OK - done that. And it doesn't take any skill. It's an MMO - they never require skill - that is not what they are about. I admit that it takes patience, but then so does waiting for the bus.
A friend of mine would duel box an alt while he was in a raid. He would right click a mob and then let it go. Every now and then he would hit another button on the second comp to heal or buff, but not often; he was doing it with a pally. He would also lvl his pally like this while he grinded rep with his hunter. One button would send his pet and another would start autoshooting. He would grind rep like this while surfing the web or making something to eat.
Just because your friend took the easy, mindless, route doesn't mean all of us do. I actually play my characters. If I'm going to invest the time and money into a game, I'm going to actively participate, not just write a bunch of macros and scripts to do everything for me while I surf the Internet and eat a sandwich.
Wow, you didn't read what I wrote did you.
No macros, no scripts. You hit the autoattack button and go. Or you hit the key for your pet to attack and then you hit the key for autoattack. No macros involved.
You completely glossed over my entire point about WoW being easy enough to be played by pressing one or two keys. I guess you missed the part about lvling one toon while raiding with the other.
Why the hostile tone? You sound like your upset that WoW doesn't have any depth in its combat system or that Blizzard isn't the one that come up with it.
It's ok, you'll get over it.
It's pretty sad that the extent of WoW's gameplay revolves around a combat system that a brain dead monkey on crack could master; even sadder that I played it for 2 years.
Edit: I'm sorry, I just can't get over the idea that you would think macros and scripting would be needed to solo grind a pally or a hunter. And you never said anything about mages only needing to spam a single button to grind. Frostbolt, frostbolt, frostbolt, or fireball, fireball, fireball. And you think that the combat has depth?
Vangaurd is not a game of skill. I think certain types of players need to give the impression that it is a game of skill. It might be to stroke their own ego or to try to impress other people. Maybe they are embarrassed that video games are considered by many to be a childish pasttime so they need to make it about skill to distance themselves from all those other childish games. Which is why I think they keep telling the kiddies to go back to WoW.
I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
Exactly what skills do you think it takes?
It takes gaming skills. You have to know your aggro range, know your class in groups and out, know how much stamina, hp and mana it is going to take to finish off what level mob, know when to hold em, when to fold em, when to walk away and when to run.
People who are new to the genre will find Vanguard daunting to say the least. You have to keep your game tight or you will be treading experience indefinitely.
Vangaurd is not a game of skill. I think certain types of players need to give the impression that it is a game of skill. It might be to stroke their own ego or to try to impress other people. Maybe they are embarrassed that video games are considered by many to be a childish pasttime so they need to make it about skill to distance themselves from all those other childish games. Which is why I think they keep telling the kiddies to go back to WoW.
I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
Exactly what skills do you think it takes?
It takes gaming skills. You have to know your aggro range, know your class in groups and out, know how much stamina, hp and mana it is going to take to finish off what level mob, know when to hold em, when to fold em, when to walk away and when to run.
People who are new to the genre will find Vanguard daunting to say the least. You have to keep your game tight or you will be treading experience indefinitely.
Not to offend but this responce isn't any different than any RPG or MMO I've ever played.
It takes gaming skills. You have to know your aggro range, know your class in groups and out, know how much stamina, hp and mana it is going to take to finish off what level mob, know when to hold em, when to fold em, when to walk away and when to run. People who are new to the genre will find Vanguard daunting to say the least. You have to keep your game tight or you will be treading experience indefinitely.
So in other words, anyone who has played an MMO before will be able to play Vanguard, since all of the things you listed are basic factors present in any other game. The only difference is, you have to learn the Vanguard con system and mechanics, and that's about it.
That still doesn't make Vanguard any harder than any other MMO. Maybe the death penalty is more unforgiving, but I'm still not seeing what extra skills are needed to play this game that someone from another MMO lacks, or why this game supposedly has tons of depth which other games supposedly don't have.
Comments
But Vanguard does require the patience to pay it, a bit of intelligence in that you have to figure out where the best place is to level you character at a given moment. If you chose to go down the crafting or diplomacy paths you'll be employing some different strategies to succeed.
VG might not bring a whole lot new to the genre...but then..what game really has? And in most cases when the truely new shows up...its rejected by most of us.....
We get the games that we deserve it seems.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As for wow it is easy and to the people who talked about when mc was first being done MC was so easy for most guilds it got to point most us could do 6 man raids in MC and many Farmed MC with 2 to 3 people. It wasn't a real challenge.
Also wow pvp is a joke. wow is a game built on easy levels and gear. But once you have all the best gear there nothing left to do in the game. It progresses to slow in the form new raids ect. In fact the BC didn't really add much to the game. just a bunch raids and tons of open areas oh and flying mounts that can only be used in the new world. Pretty boring.
Fact is not really any games out now have a good challenging pvp system with good rewards and none have a good pk system. Many have descent raids. but none offers more then other ones does raid wise except for more gear.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. I got nothing.
But Vanguard does require the patience to pay it, a bit of intelligence in that you have to figure out where the best place is to level you character at a given moment. If you chose to go down the crafting or diplomacy paths you'll be employing some different strategies to succeed.
VG might not bring a whole lot new to the genre...but then..what game really has? And in most cases when the truely new shows up...its rejected by most of us.....
We get the games that we deserve it seems.....
Patience maybe due to griding. Intelligence as in don't be stupid rather than "Kyleran is a genius" then yes. But if you really mean it as in you have to be so smart to pay and "look at me" then no, you are just stroking your own ego.
"VG might not bring a whole lot new to the genre...but then..what game really has? " is that the last grasp? I dont' recall other games claiming to be third generation game. So basically either way you are wiping it you are saying VG is like the other game. So why play it?
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly never walked away during combat in WoW. And when I'm in combat, I'm doing more than just standing there whacking away at the mob. My Paladin wouldn't be very effective if I wasn't in there activating her seals and judgements, and since I duo all the time-- even in dungeons-- keeping the aggro on me and away from my partner is key. There's also the added role of healing them or myself if we get into trouble.
If I just right clicked a mob and went AFK to do something else, then things would go very wrong very quickly. Why? Because I have to constantly use various spells and abilities to be able to survive. Just like Vanguard.
A friend of mine would duel box an alt while he was in a raid. He would right click a mob and then let it go. Every now and then he would hit another button on the second comp to heal or buff, but not often; he was doing it with a pally. He would also lvl his pally like this while he grinded rep with his hunter. One button would send his pet and another would start autoshooting. He would grind rep like this while surfing the web or making something to eat.
I know with my mage it was 99% of the time just spamming the one key, and I would grind rep in the same fashion as my friend with my hunter. Sometimes in raids I would accually hit the 2 or 3 key for a little fun. Honestly, I have to hit more buttons to provide food and water then I do to grind.
Not every class can do this but enough of them are just one or two button spam encounters with mobs when grinding rep. The only time it gets any kind of complicated is in a raid, and even then the raids are so horribly scripted that using a program that gives raid warnings when mobs are about to use a particular ability is neccasary for just about every guild. Raiding was so tough that I used to have friends over on the weekends, get smashed, and raid while I was hanging out with friends.
The combat system in VG is more complex then any other MMO I've played, but mostly when you group. While grinding isn't as mundane as WoW is, it's really not that much better, and if you're fighting even lvl 2 dot mobs you'll be spamming the same buttons over and over, just more of them. In a group the combat system really shines, with abilities applying debuffs that can be played on by members of your group to increase dmg. When a group is working in harmony it's a really impressive thing and no scripted boss encounter in WoW can even come close to the depth and complexity of group combat in VG.
VG is built with the group in mind, and while it is possible to solo it isn't as rewarding or interesting as if you go at it with a couple of other people. The problem is either finding people to play with, and the mindset created by WoW that you should be able to grind through the game solo with the same ease and be on the same footing at 60 as most everyone else. The later mindeset is kind of funny to considering that if you group in WoW and grind in dungeons you can lvl faster and be ahead of the curve with better gear when you hit 60, but the ease of lvling solo makes it more appealing to a larger audience. It's a different type of game and those that really love the way that WoW moves you along will most likely not take a shine to VG
The differences between these two games are so vast but people seem to insist on making the comparison between the two. WoW didn't create the combat system so many people are used to, and they in no way improved on it. That combat system was created long before WoW was even a concept. I never played EQ1 but from what I understand that's the game that created the model for the combat and interface system everyone is familliar with now, and VG has taken it a step further with some of the combat mechanics. Comparine these two games is silly, especially when you consider that the guy that is behind VG is the one that created a lot of the stuff you find in WoW and now in VG itself.
I think VG intent is to be more like UO with a familliar combat and interface system drawn from EQ1 and made accessable to millions of gamers thanks to WoW.
Credit WoW with opening the market and bringing MMO's into the mainstream, not for creating a complex and intuitive UI and combat system, that honor, if I'm not mistaken, goes to the creators of EQ and VG.
2. MC is not farmed by 2-3 people.
3. You've never played VG, so why do you have the right to doubt anything?
4. You're dumb.
E8400@ 4.0Ghz ~ Saphire HD 4870 ~ 6GB DDR2@ 860MhZ
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly never walked away during combat in WoW. And when I'm in combat, I'm doing more than just standing there whacking away at the mob. My Paladin wouldn't be very effective if I wasn't in there activating her seals and judgements, and since I duo all the time-- even in dungeons-- keeping the aggro on me and away from my partner is key. There's also the added role of healing them or myself if we get into trouble.
If I just right clicked a mob and went AFK to do something else, then things would go very wrong very quickly. Why? Because I have to constantly use various spells and abilities to be able to survive. Just like Vanguard.
I didn't acutally walk away but I didn't have to touch the keyboard. I didn't mean when grouping either since my friends would be very mad at me if I didn't do anything.
I was lvl 34 when doing that stuff, facing mobs at the same level, with a priest. Don't tell me that I actually have a better understanding what makes a good character than anyone else, just after 1 month of play.
Don't remember but I had about 1500 armor, a wand which did 24.6 dps, 1500hp, 2600 mana. Of course it didn't work on every mob at the same lvl or below. Sometimes I had to heal myself too. Bottomline is: I didn't have to be very active in combat and it took time to kill things (had an warlock at 32 and a shaman at 20, so It's just not the priest)
I actually managed to beat a lvl 32 hunter and it's pet and almost an 34 shaman by myself in the arena (no it doesn't have anything to do with this but it's one thing about WoW I'm kinda proud about
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly never walked away during combat in WoW. And when I'm in combat, I'm doing more than just standing there whacking away at the mob. My Paladin wouldn't be very effective if I wasn't in there activating her seals and judgements, and since I duo all the time-- even in dungeons-- keeping the aggro on me and away from my partner is key. There's also the added role of healing them or myself if we get into trouble.
If I just right clicked a mob and went AFK to do something else, then things would go very wrong very quickly. Why? Because I have to constantly use various spells and abilities to be able to survive. Just like Vanguard.
I didn't acutally walk away but I didn't have to touch the keyboard. I didn't mean when grouping either since my friends would be very mad at me if I didn't do anything.
I was lvl 34 when doing that stuff, facing mobs at the same level, with a priest. Don't tell me that I actually have a better understanding what makes a good character than anyone else, just after 1 month of play.
Don't remember but I had about 1500 armor, a wand which did 24.6 dps, 1500hp, 2600 mana. Of course it didn't work on every mob at the same lvl or below. Sometimes I had to heal myself too. Bottomline is: I didn't have to be very active in combat and it took time to kill things (had an warlock at 32 and a shaman at 20, so It's just not the priest)
I actually managed to beat a lvl 32 hunter and it's pet and almost an 34 shaman by myself in the arena (no it doesn't have anything to do with this but it's one thing about WoW I'm kinda proud about
The point is, you can't generalize about what it takes in a game. Not everyone has the same playstyle.
I don't solo. I've always found it boring in MMO's. If I'm online, and my boyfriend isn't wanting to play just yet, I do trade skills, or look through the Auction House for weapons or armor, and see if I can get a decent deal on something, or I engage in chat in whatever city I'm in, or some combination of the three. About the only game I've ever actively soloed in is City of Heroes, and even then, I'll do a small handful of missions if my guildmates aren't on, then log. Soloing bores me to tears.
I'm always grouped when I go out to play in WoW. Always. I can't just right click and walk away, or have macros and scripts do everything for me while I eat and post on message boards. I have to actively be there, in front of my keyboard, aware of my character's surroundings, and conscious of what I'm doing.
I don't pretend to have any greater understanding of the classes I play than someone who macros their way up to 70, but I would personally find their playstyle pointless. I'm a hands-on player, and have to actually be in control when I play.
Fucking god mode killed the game.
eqnext.wikia.com
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly never walked away during combat in WoW. And when I'm in combat, I'm doing more than just standing there whacking away at the mob. My Paladin wouldn't be very effective if I wasn't in there activating her seals and judgements, and since I duo all the time-- even in dungeons-- keeping the aggro on me and away from my partner is key. There's also the added role of healing them or myself if we get into trouble.
If I just right clicked a mob and went AFK to do something else, then things would go very wrong very quickly. Why? Because I have to constantly use various spells and abilities to be able to survive. Just like Vanguard.
I didn't acutally walk away but I didn't have to touch the keyboard. I didn't mean when grouping either since my friends would be very mad at me if I didn't do anything.
I was lvl 34 when doing that stuff, facing mobs at the same level, with a priest. Don't tell me that I actually have a better understanding what makes a good character than anyone else, just after 1 month of play.
Don't remember but I had about 1500 armor, a wand which did 24.6 dps, 1500hp, 2600 mana. Of course it didn't work on every mob at the same lvl or below. Sometimes I had to heal myself too. Bottomline is: I didn't have to be very active in combat and it took time to kill things (had an warlock at 32 and a shaman at 20, so It's just not the priest)
I actually managed to beat a lvl 32 hunter and it's pet and almost an 34 shaman by myself in the arena (no it doesn't have anything to do with this but it's one thing about WoW I'm kinda proud about
The point is, you can't generalize about what it takes in a game. Not everyone has the same playstyle.
I don't solo. I've always found it boring in MMO's. If I'm online, and my boyfriend isn't wanting to play just yet, I do trade skills, or look through the Auction House for weapons or armor, and see if I can get a decent deal on something, or I engage in chat in whatever city I'm in, or some combination of the three. About the only game I've ever actively soloed in is City of Heroes, and even then, I'll do a small handful of missions if my guildmates aren't on, then log. Soloing bores me to tears.
I'm always grouped when I go out to play in WoW. Always. I can't just right click and walk away, or have macros and scripts do everything for me while I eat and post on message boards. I have to actively be there, in front of my keyboard, aware of my character's surroundings, and conscious of what I'm doing.
I don't pretend to have any greater understanding of the classes I play than someone who macros their way up to 70, but I would personally find their playstyle pointless. I'm a hands-on player, and have to actually be in control when I play.
The "game-style" I mentioned isn't really a style if you think about it. Of course I didn't played the game like that, it would have been to slow. Discovered the possibilty as a way to conserve and even build up mana in fights.
I have never used a macro in that game or any other game for that matter, I understand what your'e saying though. I didn't like that gamestyle so thats why I quit playing. That and the fact that soloing was way to restricted. I did play with friends over teamspeak, which made the game fun.
I didn't care much of the surrondings since they made me wanna puke
(sorry for that last part but I thought it was to good of a comparison to the whole "I hate VG and so should you" thing. I know it was the wrong thread for it aswell but... hey wtf, I'm tired)
Just to note, the term "carebear" is used far to much and inappropriately I feel.
This is a WoW Care Bear. WoW is not a Care Bear game. That is all.
roflmao. Good one.
I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
Exactly what skills do you think it takes?
Wow, you didn't read what I wrote did you.
No macros, no scripts. You hit the autoattack button and go. Or you hit the key for your pet to attack and then you hit the key for autoattack. No macros involved.
You completely glossed over my entire point about WoW being easy enough to be played by pressing one or two keys. I guess you missed the part about lvling one toon while raiding with the other.
Why the hostile tone? You sound like your upset that WoW doesn't have any depth in its combat system or that Blizzard isn't the one that come up with it.
It's ok, you'll get over it.
It's pretty sad that the extent of WoW's gameplay revolves around a combat system that a brain dead monkey on crack could master; even sadder that I played it for 2 years.
Edit: I'm sorry, I just can't get over the idea that you would think macros and scripting would be needed to solo grind a pally or a hunter. And you never said anything about mages only needing to spam a single button to grind. Frostbolt, frostbolt, frostbolt, or fireball, fireball, fireball. And you think that the combat has depth?
I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
Exactly what skills do you think it takes?
It takes gaming skills. You have to know your aggro range, know your class in groups and out, know how much stamina, hp and mana it is going to take to finish off what level mob, know when to hold em, when to fold em, when to walk away and when to run.
People who are new to the genre will find Vanguard daunting to say the least. You have to keep your game tight or you will be treading experience indefinitely.
I didn't say Vanguard was a game OF skill, but it does TAKE skill and patience. Get to level 20 and tell me how it doesn't take any skill.
Exactly what skills do you think it takes?
It takes gaming skills. You have to know your aggro range, know your class in groups and out, know how much stamina, hp and mana it is going to take to finish off what level mob, know when to hold em, when to fold em, when to walk away and when to run.
People who are new to the genre will find Vanguard daunting to say the least. You have to keep your game tight or you will be treading experience indefinitely.
Not to offend but this responce isn't any different than any RPG or MMO I've ever played.
That still doesn't make Vanguard any harder than any other MMO. Maybe the death penalty is more unforgiving, but I'm still not seeing what extra skills are needed to play this game that someone from another MMO lacks, or why this game supposedly has tons of depth which other games supposedly don't have.