Very interesting debate I think. I have to agree with Traelin and ever since World of Warcraft I have enjoyed Official Forums for games. The main idea is to have a centralized community! Yet somehow everybody is opposed to this and I dont believe the arguments against are good enough to make no forums a valid strategy. When I played Final Fantasy XI they had no official forums, but an excellent official website and excellent customer service (in my opinion). I then spent most of my forum time on Allakhazam where most players had set up the unofficial forums (since the database for quests, etc was right at hand). It worked? Yes. Very well might I add and I never missed having official forums. However then having played World of Warcraft (and also looking forward to The Chronicles of Spellborn being registered on their official forums) I have to say that I think having (official forums) is better for all parties involved. Those who want a place to go have it. Those who dont want to go, dont have to and everybody has a centralized database of information coming from both the developers and customers. I think the problem at this point is that people are supporting the game and as is usual with the early fans they want to support everything including EA Mythics decision to not have official forums. It is a player preference and as such we can go back and forth forever arguing about the pross and cons. However there will always be those who want the official forums and those who do not. I think you can please more people (customers) by offering the forums than by not doing so and while the herald is an excellent source of information it will be ashame to not have official forums. If any one fansite did become the official forum I would think Warhammer Alliance would be it.
I don't see what playing and enjoying a game has to do with the forums. I do see where these people are coming from to an extent and it is most definitely true that a game or game company for that matter who has a central forums and website can reach out to their subscribers much more easier, and this does perhaps provide for easier access to subscribers to the information. It benefits both ways.
Here's the thing however, the idea behind an MMORPG is to have the community INSIDE you game. That was the original concept of it all. Forums are really there for those who can't get on the game if the game is down for whatever reason, or is most commonly used to clean up in-game discussions. Those chat rooms and various chat functions aren't in the game for role players only...
For those of you who all talk about WoW, when was the last time you were on their forums to see the havoc being brought by the insane number of immature posters. Most companies after seeing that will tend to stay away, it does make it look really bad upon Blizzard that their forums run strictly controlled in some aspects, but are a complete wreck. This becomes even more of an issue the more popular a game is, and most companies are not going to have interest in paying a group of people to work around the clock to sit there and do nothing but watch the forums, most companies barely want to pay for tech support and rely on outsourcing...
There is one thing that I do believe that as a game developer they should have if they elect to not have forums. There should be an efficient and very complete, detailed, and accurate way of retrieving technical support. This could be through in-game or a help system on the website, or a combination of both. Blizzard Entertainment combines all three, but nobody bothers to use the first two and usually rely on the forums for their tech support.
Just browsing through this topic I didn't see it... Guild Wars if you remember doesn't have a forum and neither does Vanguard. We do all of course hope that Warhammer doesn't take Vanguard's path and takes something more like Guild Wars did.
Can't deny this argument. WoW has had some serious trouble with forums.
I don't see what playing and enjoying a game has to do with the forums. I do see where these people are coming from to an extent and it is most definitely true that a game or game company for that matter who has a central forums and website can reach out to their subscribers much more easier, and this does perhaps provide for easier access to subscribers to the information. It benefits both ways.
Here's the thing however, the idea behind an MMORPG is to have the community INSIDE you game. That was the original concept of it all. Forums are really there for those who can't get on the game if the game is down for whatever reason, or is most commonly used to clean up in-game discussions. Those chat rooms and various chat functions aren't in the game for role players only...
For those of you who all talk about WoW, when was the last time you were on their forums to see the havoc being brought by the insane number of immature posters. Most companies after seeing that will tend to stay away, it does make it look really bad upon Blizzard that their forums run strictly controlled in some aspects, but are a complete wreck. This becomes even more of an issue the more popular a game is, and most companies are not going to have interest in paying a group of people to work around the clock to sit there and do nothing but watch the forums, most companies barely want to pay for tech support and rely on outsourcing...
There is one thing that I do believe that as a game developer they should have if they elect to not have forums. There should be an efficient and very complete, detailed, and accurate way of retrieving technical support. This could be through in-game or a help system on the website, or a combination of both. Blizzard Entertainment combines all three, but nobody bothers to use the first two and usually rely on the forums for their tech support.
Just browsing through this topic I didn't see it... Guild Wars if you remember doesn't have a forum and neither does Vanguard. We do all of course hope that Warhammer doesn't take Vanguard's path and takes something more like Guild Wars did.
Can't deny this argument. WoW has had some serious trouble with forums.This has probably been the best thread I've participated in on ANY forum in a VERY LONG time. Thanks to everyone for your insight and input, it's been pretty interesting.
I would have major concerns about even buying this game now that will not be offical forums. You can not pass this over to some fan site its not profesional. This to me shows me that you as a company do not want to listen to your community Or even care about there opinions and as a paying customer you shold always listen to your community base. and it is also a way to ignore your comunitys issues. It preventa a person who may be interested in trying the game from reading negative or postive topics about the game.
Most people who think about a new mmo usualy check there forums to see whats going on and if there is any major issues etc so thats my opinion and im sure im not the only one who would think this.
How in any way are we showing we don't want to listen to our community when we are providing means for the community to speak to us directly, just not official forums. Trust me, I would bet ANY amount of money, I would even bet my JOB that I have a FAR better overall look of what the DAoC.*** As I said above, it is FAR easier and more effecient to track, tally and report the information sent in via Feedback Forms than to try and gather all that same information from the forums where it is all mixed in with the trolling, flaming, bickering, bragging and epeen waving of thousands of posters with nothing better to do than run up a post count so they can feel more important than the next poster who comes along. *** (Yes, I know mistakes were made in the past, ToA, etc. But I'm referring to the last 1.5 years when I've been in charge of the Feedback Form system, I'm sure anyone currently playing DAoC will agree that there has never been a period of time when the patches more reflected what the community wanted as a whole.)
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Richard you state that whether World of Warcraft had forums or not it still would have been the success it is today. However I would have to argue against that. We dont know and will never know what would have been if there had not been official forums. For one during beta the forums were open for everybody to view, even if you were not in closed beta and managed to build a level of hype for the game that has rarely been witnessed in the industry (half a million players signed up for the stress test in less than 24 hours). Let me make this statement.
Why not have the forums as a place for the community to just be. You have the herald for receiving information the fact is some people just want a place where they can meet and talk with other players in game. Whether it be strategies, how other serves are doing, etc. Let us say that forums are not the best way of gathering information, however forums serve other purposes. I.e. players just hanging out when they are not playing (I.e. at work, etc). Again people are requesting forums, I doubt Mtyhic will cave in (and I believe thats good to an extent) however there can be no harm done from having the forums and I see only benefits.
Dont use it for feedback (have the forms for that) but give us the community we are requesting? And again let me make this clear as a prefernce this argument will never reach a conclusion. Some people want the forums and some do not. Providing them will please more players than it will displease and we're not even talking about information gathering (from the developers side anymore) just a place for the community to sit back and if they so choose vent their frustration or share with the community.
First time actually responding to a forum poll, but it's a pretty crucial issue IMO.
While the whole notion of official forums does lead to some incredibly negative things on occasion, overall I think they beat fansites in one major respect - permanence.
If a gaming company runs an official forum site, you can be relatively certain that the information contained there is going to be there for the duration of the game. It forms a record of history for the in-game events and player-driven initiatives, and a resource database for new people trying to figure out the game. Yes there is usually a lot of chaff to sort through, but anyone who uses the interweb for any kind of research should be relatively adept at searching (provided a decent search engine is available).
In contrast, a fansite exists only as long as the person paying the bills decides it interests them to do so. If your community forms around a given fansite, what happens to that chunk of community when the provider decides WAR is no longer of interest for them? If a goldmine of information resides on a given site, how is that information protected should the admin decide they no longer want to deal with the headaches of running a forum and wipes them?
Fansites have their place certainly, but gaming companies IMO should always have some kind of official presence on the web whereby their customers / community can come together.
Originally posted by Arath however there can be no harm done from having the forums and I see only benefits. That's where you missed a great part of his words. Keeping OF's going requires TONS of force. Actually hundreds of people just to KEEP THEM GOING.
Anyway, OF or not there will be FORUMS enough for EVERYBODY. Thanks to fan-base. There're already many forums around the net for this game.
And if you're confused about that just find ONE and you should be fine. Since I believe noone should have a problem finding one. There are links on the official homepage to fan-pages which has forums. I guess the biggest "2n'd kind-off official pages" will have the biggest forums.
As everyone said DAOC did well without OF and my experience yields that OF are only good for, as you mentioned, discussing with the playerbase about different aspects of the game. Which can be done just as well in other forums.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
The game itself will also require many (hundreds perhaps) of people to continously support it. A development cycle with no rewards until the game ships costing the company millions. The argument that official forums cost too much to maintain doesnt fly with me. Yes you need people to maintain them, servers to run them, etc. However the same is said for the game and should the title become very successful then they will be making more money than they know what to do with. Like I said (and I will say it again) its a consumer prefernce to have official forums (if for nothing else other than the community to have a centralized place to meet and chat) so why deny it when it can be provided.
Money and Man-power? If EvE can maintain official forums I am sure Warhammer could if they really wanted. Of course there are forums enough for everybody thats not really the argument here. The idea is (stripping away any concept of it being a means for feedback) to provide a hub for the player base to congregate. The company doesnt want to and that is fine, but as it stands there are no good reasons to not having them and as Traelin stated it almost seems cheap to not include them. Again even for things like Beta testings would you not want to be able to see if other people have encountered the same error as you? When the servers will be up? Who did what and how?
While its not a game breaking feature and really just a single issue (I see myself playing this game regardless) I think as the internet becomes a more habitual place for people to hang out, forums would be a nice inclussion.
Just want to point out, that most people in this topic voted "Bad idea".
Despite what the (lol) “Vocal minority” of no forum supporters have posted.
Richard_Mythic's main arugment is that offical forums are not needed, and that polls and forums are more efficent.
So, there is a poll that thinks not having a forum is a "Bad idea".
Personally, I think all three should be used.
1) Official forums for the community building. and Q/A session from the devs.
2) log in poll's for those that like to look at the numbers
3) Feedback forums for those that wish to give a little more insight then just a vote.
Personally, again.. I think relying on polls and feedback forms only is bad. Asking someone a questing to receive and answer is not that same as someone telling you what they feel is wrong.
"And opinion solicited is not the same as an opinion freely given"
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Personally, again.. I think relying on polls and feedback forms only is bad. Asking someone a questing to receive and answer is not that same as someone telling you what they feel is wrong.
"And opinion solicited is not the same as an opinion freely given"
Thats why there are avenues for both. The feedback forms are freely given, not solicited at all, same as posting on a forum. The polls are solicited, and used when we want a quick idea of what the playing community thinks of a particular idea.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Why not have the forums as a place for the community to just be. You have the herald for receiving information the fact is some people just want a place where they can meet and talk with other players in game. Whether it be strategies, how other serves are doing, etc. Let us say that forums are not the best way of gathering information, however forums serve other purposes. I.e. players just hanging out when they are not playing (I.e. at work, etc). Again people are requesting forums, I doubt Mtyhic will cave in (and I believe thats good to an extent) however there can be no harm done from having the forums and I see only benefits. Dont use it for feedback (have the forms for that) but give us the community we are requesting? And again let me make this clear as a prefernce this argument will never reach a conclusion. Some people want the forums and some do not. Providing them will please more players than it will displease and we're not even talking about information gathering (from the developers side anymore) just a place for the community to sit back and if they so choose vent their frustration or share with the community.
That's probably the best arguement right there. Don't use Official Forums for anything other than a place for players to congregate. It cannot hurt anything, and many players would want them. And if you don't like them, the third party forums will still exist. So then you'd have a choice, and choice is always good.
Seriously. It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Why not have the forums as a place for the community to just be. You have the herald for receiving information the fact is some people just want a place where they can meet and talk with other players in game. Whether it be strategies, how other serves are doing, etc. Let us say that forums are not the best way of gathering information, however forums serve other purposes. I.e. players just hanging out when they are not playing (I.e. at work, etc). Again people are requesting forums, I doubt Mtyhic will cave in (and I believe thats good to an extent) however there can be no harm done from having the forums and I see only benefits. Dont use it for feedback (have the forms for that) but give us the community we are requesting? And again let me make this clear as a prefernce this argument will never reach a conclusion. Some people want the forums and some do not. Providing them will please more players than it will displease and we're not even talking about information gathering (from the developers side anymore) just a place for the community to sit back and if they so choose vent their frustration or share with the community.
That's probably the best arguement right there. Don't use Official Forums for anything other than a place for players to congregate. It cannot hurt anything, and many players would want them. And if you don't like them, the third party forums will still exist. So then you'd have a choice, and choice is always good. Because if they're official forums people EXPECT them to be the primary avenue of communication to the Dev Team. They EXPEXT their posts to be read by the team and used as an alternative to the feedback form or whatever else is in place.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Just want to point out, that most people in this topic voted "Bad idea".
You're misreading the results and not putting it into the context of the sampled demographic - a small margin (56%) of the kind of people who follow games in beta (admit it, we're a crowd of game fanatics who are almost freaky about discussing things into the ground, therefore forum fanatics by nature) think its a bad idea. 56% of beta-trackers thought it was a bad idea/no play, while 44% of beta trackers thought it was a good idea/couldn't care less - for every 4 forum fanatics who think Official Forums don't matter, 5 think they do; not exactly an overwhelming hue and cry. If that's the result among beta-tracking type personalities, imagine how those numbers will shift when the normal gamers (the non-fanatics) show up after release.
Just want to point out, that most people in this topic voted "Bad idea".
You're misreading the results and not putting it into the context of the sampled demographic - a small margin (56%) of the kind of people who follow games in beta (admit it, we're a crowd of game fanatics who are almost freaky about discussing things into the ground, therefore forum fanatics by nature) think its a bad idea. 56% of beta-trackers thought it was a bad idea/no play, while 44% of beta trackers thought it was a good idea/couldn't care less - for every 4 forum fanatics who think Official Forums don't matter, 5 think they do; not exactly an overwhelming hue and cry. If that's the result among beta-tracking type personalities, imagine how those numbers will shift when the normal gamers (the non-fanatics) show up after release.
First, as to the poll results. It's misleading to group them as you have above, because really the results are 56+% for the OF, 15+% against the OF, and 28+% neutral. Second, while this poll is of a small subsection of the community, I would argue that MORE casual players, not less, would want OF. Why? Because of the argument I posed earlier -- casual gamers don't want to be spending their time running around to different fansites, which -- interestingly enough -- are more of a hangout for the hardcore.
So if anything, I would argue that polls of casual gamers would skew it more toward a favorable opinion of OF. I can go and create the same poll on other boards too, if we want to test this theory out...
Just want to point out, that most people in this topic voted "Bad idea".
You're misreading the results and not putting it into the context of the sampled demographic - a small margin (56%) of the kind of people who follow games in beta (admit it, we're a crowd of game fanatics who are almost freaky about discussing things into the ground, therefore forum fanatics by nature) think its a bad idea. 56% of beta-trackers thought it was a bad idea/no play, while 44% of beta trackers thought it was a good idea/couldn't care less - for every 4 forum fanatics who think Official Forums don't matter, 5 think they do; not exactly an overwhelming hue and cry. If that's the result among beta-tracking type personalities, imagine how those numbers will shift when the normal gamers (the non-fanatics) show up after release.
I’m not misreading anything, if anything the numbers are skewed ..from current DAOC players or mythic supporters.
A boutique game and company with a small player base and unique game play.
So, if anything, just by being in this forum the numbers should come out in the "No forum" favor.. Which is shown in the posting (so much for them not liking forums) but not in the poll.
I can make one in the general forum if you would like.
Your number change nothing... Most of the voters think its a bad idea...period. it could change as the poll doesn’t close...
If anything, however, releasing this info the general mmo general... you will still see the same outcome, if not even see the gap become larger.
In fact, im surprised the outcome is this way..as I was expecting that all mythic supporters would have flooded that poll with there opinions on the matter, in support of mythic practices.
Instead, they posted there opinions, while those that thought it was a bad idea ..voted on the poll, with very little postings.
Seems odd to me.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
You keep referring to DAoC as a "boutique" game and I'm begining to think you really either don't know what that means or just aren't using it in the way you believe...
You can't refer to a game that is 5 years old as a niche market game. The subs aren't low due to it being "boutique" but rather due to it simply being 5 years old... Is EQ a niche market game now? Is UO? In it's prime DAoC was up there with the best of them at the time in subs. And it's still holding it's own 5 years down the road. Is it competing with WoW? No, but what is?
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
To say DAoC is a boutique game is to show how little you actually know about it. The release date was November, 2001. It will be 6 years old this year. That is a long time for an MMO to be around. WoW is 2 years old. It will be 3 this year. Come back to this thread in 3 years and see what the state of WoW looks like. Think it will still be at the 8 million+ mark or will it be a boutique game like you are calling DAoC right now?
If you are going to compare games, do it at their prime, not as they are nearing end of life. DAoC could easily stay up for another 6 years, but I doubt it. EQ is basically dead, all these expansions being released by SOE is just them trying to squeeze the very last drops of money out of a dying game. In it's prime, EQ was huge. It is the game that laid the foundation for what we play now. It was the first true 3d MMO. Is EQ a boutique game?
I agree that there should not be an official forum. Its easier for the devs i think cause it filters out all the crap. I have posted on many fan sites and i find alot of them to be really good and prob even better than an offical forum would be.
Also with just a feedback thing the devs will have an easier time to find out what could be wrong with a game rather than scanning through offical forums to find bits of information that might be useful.
And they probably won't change their minds about not having an offical forum and i hope they don't cause they are right not to.
You keep referring to DAoC as a "boutique" game and I'm begining to think you really either don't know what that means or just aren't using it in the way you believe...
You can't refer to a game that is 5 years old as a niche market game. The subs aren't low due to it being "boutique" but rather due to it simply being 5 years old... Is EQ a niche market game now? Is UO? In it's prime DAoC was up there with the best of them at the time in subs. And it's still holding it's own 5 years down the road. Is it competing with WoW? No, but what is?
A boutique, from the French word for "shop," is a small shopping outlet, especially one that specialises in elite and fashionable items such as clothes and jewelry. It can also refer to a specialized firm such as a boutique investment bank or boutique law firm. The word is often used to describe a property in the independent section of the hotel market (such as The Rockwell in London) in order to distinguish themselves from larger chains (such as Hilton Group). In such cases the idea is that the operation is elite and highly specialized.
Its a boutique game in that its game play does not have mass appeal, and is niche, as it has always been. I’m sure people will disagree, but since its beginnings it has had unique game play that not everyone enjoys.
My comparison has nothing to do with WoW, and being a boutique is not a dirty word, but it does illustrate that the game is, and has been geared toward a type of player base...
So, things that they do, do not necessarily mean it will work when working for a LARGE IP . I think you will find there are more Warhammer fans then there are DAOC.
Thanks...
"Is EQ a boutique game?", no , its not. Its just a graphical engine wrapped around a system that was already widely popular. (MUDS)
DAOC does not fall into that catagory of DIKU/EQ games, it is in its own catagory. Thuss... A boutique.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
By that definition, 90% of MMOs are boutique games since they try and bring something different and unique to the table. Also, WAR will be a boutique game since from the very beginning it will have a gameplay style that not everyone will want. It's this targeted towards a specific type of player that creates the unique MMO. Conan is directed as a different type of player than WAR, which are both directed at a different type of player than Eve and none of those are directed at the same type as the CoX games. You can go through the entire list of MMOs and they are all targeting different types of people based on which style of gameplay they chose to go for. It's this uniqueness that gives us the non-cookie cutter, thinking outside the box types of boutique MMOs. Without this aspect, every MMO would pretty much be the same thing in a new wrapper with different names and art style.
See, this is exactly why forums are useless for gathering community information. I don't want forums, I'd rather the money be spent in game development. We have forums on fansites now and they work just fine. I've alread said that in the first three topics created on the subject, so have a lot of people who intended to buy WAR from the start. But, instead of just saying "Alright, we're the minority" and shutting up, 200 more topics are made about it. Everyone except for the hardcore pro-change people stop posting after about the third repeat topic. And only the "vocal minority" are left. The "vocal minority" being arsehats who don't shut up until they look like a magority and cause a change that's harmful to everyone.
I'm still not understanding why people are arguing about this.
Either way, you're getting the same exact information. The Pro to the unofficial forums being that you don't have to wade through irrelevant material on an official forum to get the information you're looking for.
While you might have to do some browsing through various fansites to find one you like, once you find one who's format/community you enjoy, you stay there.
Already there are at least three well-known fansites for WAR. Those being only-war, war-rvr and warhammeralliance. I personally prefer the look and feel of war-rvr for information like screenshots, videos (excellent mediaplayer) and the unique features they're offering like the career calculator and the Interactive map. While I think the community on warhammeralliance are way more vocal and easier to have lengthy discussions with. Also the forums are arranged in a much more pleasing way. I'm not a fan of Only-war's format, so I don't go there. I spend my time between war-rvr for content and warhammeralliance for discussions.
This to me is a much better solution than if WAR had an official forum that I didn't like. Then I'd be SOL, since the fansites would only get a margin of the traffic they get without an official forum.
All-in-all you're not losing anything by WAR not having an official forum.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
See, this is exactly why forums are useless for gathering community information. I don't want forums, I'd rather the money be spent in game development. We have forums on fansites now and they work just fine. I've alread said that in the first three topics created on the subject, so have a lot of people who intended to buy WAR from the start. But, instead of just saying "Alright, we're the minority" and shutting up, 200 more topics are made about it. Everyone except for the hardcore pro-change people stop posting after about the third repeat topic. And only the "vocal minority" are left. The "vocal minority" being arsehats who don't shut up until they look like a magority and cause a change that's harmful to everyone. In conclusion, STFU NOOBS!
Hopefully this post will clear up any misconceptions as to why I feel age is a good indicator of maturity (as a general rule of thumb).
Comments
QFT, I simply think it would please some fans.
Emerald
Emerald
How in any way are we showing we don't want to listen to our community when we are providing means for the community to speak to us directly, just not official forums. Trust me, I would bet ANY amount of money, I would even bet my JOB that I have a FAR better overall look of what the DAoC.*** As I said above, it is FAR easier and more effecient to track, tally and report the information sent in via Feedback Forms than to try and gather all that same information from the forums where it is all mixed in with the trolling, flaming, bickering, bragging and epeen waving of thousands of posters with nothing better to do than run up a post count so they can feel more important than the next poster who comes along.
*** (Yes, I know mistakes were made in the past, ToA, etc. But I'm referring to the last 1.5 years when I've been in charge of the Feedback Form system, I'm sure anyone currently playing DAoC will agree that there has never been a period of time when the patches more reflected what the community wanted as a whole.)
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Richard you state that whether World of Warcraft had forums or not it still would have been the success it is today. However I would have to argue against that. We dont know and will never know what would have been if there had not been official forums. For one during beta the forums were open for everybody to view, even if you were not in closed beta and managed to build a level of hype for the game that has rarely been witnessed in the industry (half a million players signed up for the stress test in less than 24 hours). Let me make this statement.
Why not have the forums as a place for the community to just be. You have the herald for receiving information the fact is some people just want a place where they can meet and talk with other players in game. Whether it be strategies, how other serves are doing, etc. Let us say that forums are not the best way of gathering information, however forums serve other purposes. I.e. players just hanging out when they are not playing (I.e. at work, etc). Again people are requesting forums, I doubt Mtyhic will cave in (and I believe thats good to an extent) however there can be no harm done from having the forums and I see only benefits.
Dont use it for feedback (have the forms for that) but give us the community we are requesting? And again let me make this clear as a prefernce this argument will never reach a conclusion. Some people want the forums and some do not. Providing them will please more players than it will displease and we're not even talking about information gathering (from the developers side anymore) just a place for the community to sit back and if they so choose vent their frustration or share with the community.
First time actually responding to a forum poll, but it's a pretty crucial issue IMO.
While the whole notion of official forums does lead to some incredibly negative things on occasion, overall I think they beat fansites in one major respect - permanence.
If a gaming company runs an official forum site, you can be relatively certain that the information contained there is going to be there for the duration of the game. It forms a record of history for the in-game events and player-driven initiatives, and a resource database for new people trying to figure out the game. Yes there is usually a lot of chaff to sort through, but anyone who uses the interweb for any kind of research should be relatively adept at searching (provided a decent search engine is available).
In contrast, a fansite exists only as long as the person paying the bills decides it interests them to do so. If your community forms around a given fansite, what happens to that chunk of community when the provider decides WAR is no longer of interest for them? If a goldmine of information resides on a given site, how is that information protected should the admin decide they no longer want to deal with the headaches of running a forum and wipes them?
Fansites have their place certainly, but gaming companies IMO should always have some kind of official presence on the web whereby their customers / community can come together.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
The game itself will also require many (hundreds perhaps) of people to continously support it. A development cycle with no rewards until the game ships costing the company millions. The argument that official forums cost too much to maintain doesnt fly with me. Yes you need people to maintain them, servers to run them, etc. However the same is said for the game and should the title become very successful then they will be making more money than they know what to do with. Like I said (and I will say it again) its a consumer prefernce to have official forums (if for nothing else other than the community to have a centralized place to meet and chat) so why deny it when it can be provided.
Money and Man-power? If EvE can maintain official forums I am sure Warhammer could if they really wanted. Of course there are forums enough for everybody thats not really the argument here. The idea is (stripping away any concept of it being a means for feedback) to provide a hub for the player base to congregate. The company doesnt want to and that is fine, but as it stands there are no good reasons to not having them and as Traelin stated it almost seems cheap to not include them. Again even for things like Beta testings would you not want to be able to see if other people have encountered the same error as you? When the servers will be up? Who did what and how?
While its not a game breaking feature and really just a single issue (I see myself playing this game regardless) I think as the internet becomes a more habitual place for people to hang out, forums would be a nice inclussion.
Just want to point out, that most people in this topic voted "Bad idea".
Despite what the (lol) “Vocal minority” of no forum supporters have posted.
Richard_Mythic's main arugment is that offical forums are not needed, and that polls and forums are more efficent.
So, there is a poll that thinks not having a forum is a "Bad idea".
Personally, I think all three should be used.
1) Official forums for the community building. and Q/A session from the devs.
2) log in poll's for those that like to look at the numbers
3) Feedback forums for those that wish to give a little more insight then just a vote.
Personally, again.. I think relying on polls and feedback forms only is bad. Asking someone a questing to receive and answer is not that same as someone telling you what they feel is wrong.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
You're misreading the results and not putting it into the context of the sampled demographic - a small margin (56%) of the kind of people who follow games in beta (admit it, we're a crowd of game fanatics who are almost freaky about discussing things into the ground, therefore forum fanatics by nature) think its a bad idea. 56% of beta-trackers thought it was a bad idea/no play, while 44% of beta trackers thought it was a good idea/couldn't care less - for every 4 forum fanatics who think Official Forums don't matter, 5 think they do; not exactly an overwhelming hue and cry. If that's the result among beta-tracking type personalities, imagine how those numbers will shift when the normal gamers (the non-fanatics) show up after release.
You're misreading the results and not putting it into the context of the sampled demographic - a small margin (56%) of the kind of people who follow games in beta (admit it, we're a crowd of game fanatics who are almost freaky about discussing things into the ground, therefore forum fanatics by nature) think its a bad idea. 56% of beta-trackers thought it was a bad idea/no play, while 44% of beta trackers thought it was a good idea/couldn't care less - for every 4 forum fanatics who think Official Forums don't matter, 5 think they do; not exactly an overwhelming hue and cry. If that's the result among beta-tracking type personalities, imagine how those numbers will shift when the normal gamers (the non-fanatics) show up after release.
First, as to the poll results. It's misleading to group them as you have above, because really the results are 56+% for the OF, 15+% against the OF, and 28+% neutral. Second, while this poll is of a small subsection of the community, I would argue that MORE casual players, not less, would want OF. Why? Because of the argument I posed earlier -- casual gamers don't want to be spending their time running around to different fansites, which -- interestingly enough -- are more of a hangout for the hardcore.
So if anything, I would argue that polls of casual gamers would skew it more toward a favorable opinion of OF. I can go and create the same poll on other boards too, if we want to test this theory out...
You're misreading the results and not putting it into the context of the sampled demographic - a small margin (56%) of the kind of people who follow games in beta (admit it, we're a crowd of game fanatics who are almost freaky about discussing things into the ground, therefore forum fanatics by nature) think its a bad idea. 56% of beta-trackers thought it was a bad idea/no play, while 44% of beta trackers thought it was a good idea/couldn't care less - for every 4 forum fanatics who think Official Forums don't matter, 5 think they do; not exactly an overwhelming hue and cry. If that's the result among beta-tracking type personalities, imagine how those numbers will shift when the normal gamers (the non-fanatics) show up after release.
I’m not misreading anything, if anything the numbers are skewed ..from current DAOC players or mythic supporters.
A boutique game and company with a small player base and unique game play.
So, if anything, just by being in this forum the numbers should come out in the "No forum" favor.. Which is shown in the posting (so much for them not liking forums) but not in the poll.
I can make one in the general forum if you would like.
Your number change nothing... Most of the voters think its a bad idea...period. it could change as the poll doesn’t close...
If anything, however, releasing this info the general mmo general... you will still see the same outcome, if not even see the gap become larger.
In fact, im surprised the outcome is this way..as I was expecting that all mythic supporters would have flooded that poll with there opinions on the matter, in support of mythic practices.
Instead, they posted there opinions, while those that thought it was a bad idea ..voted on the poll, with very little postings.
Seems odd to me.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
You can't refer to a game that is 5 years old as a niche market game. The subs aren't low due to it being "boutique" but rather due to it simply being 5 years old... Is EQ a niche market game now? Is UO? In it's prime DAoC was up there with the best of them at the time in subs. And it's still holding it's own 5 years down the road. Is it competing with WoW? No, but what is?
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
If you are going to compare games, do it at their prime, not as they are nearing end of life. DAoC could easily stay up for another 6 years, but I doubt it. EQ is basically dead, all these expansions being released by SOE is just them trying to squeeze the very last drops of money out of a dying game. In it's prime, EQ was huge. It is the game that laid the foundation for what we play now. It was the first true 3d MMO. Is EQ a boutique game?
Also with just a feedback thing the devs will have an easier time to find out what could be wrong with a game rather than scanning through offical forums to find bits of information that might be useful.
And they probably won't change their minds about not having an offical forum and i hope they don't cause they are right not to.
WoW has official forums, and when you go to them, all you see is crying and whining about the game. Hardly a community, too.
WAR will obviously have unofficial forums so it'll, IMO, bring the community a bit closer.
Its a boutique game in that its game play does not have mass appeal, and is niche, as it has always been. I’m sure people will disagree, but since its beginnings it has had unique game play that not everyone enjoys.
My comparison has nothing to do with WoW, and being a boutique is not a dirty word, but it does illustrate that the game is, and has been geared toward a type of player base...
So, things that they do, do not necessarily mean it will work when working for a LARGE IP . I think you will find there are more Warhammer fans then there are DAOC.
Thanks...
"Is EQ a boutique game?", no , its not. Its just a graphical engine wrapped around a system that was already widely popular. (MUDS)
DAOC does not fall into that catagory of DIKU/EQ games, it is in its own catagory. Thuss... A boutique.----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
the only draw back would be if you have a technical issue and the forums is where you would usually go to get info. Now you have contact them directly
See, this is exactly why forums are useless for gathering community information. I don't want forums, I'd rather the money be spent in game development. We have forums on fansites now and they work just fine. I've alread said that in the first three topics created on the subject, so have a lot of people who intended to buy WAR from the start. But, instead of just saying "Alright, we're the minority" and shutting up, 200 more topics are made about it. Everyone except for the hardcore pro-change people stop posting after about the third repeat topic. And only the "vocal minority" are left. The "vocal minority" being arsehats who don't shut up until they look like a magority and cause a change that's harmful to everyone.
In conclusion, STFU NOOBS!
Either way, you're getting the same exact information. The Pro to the unofficial forums being that you don't have to wade through irrelevant material on an official forum to get the information you're looking for.
While you might have to do some browsing through various fansites to find one you like, once you find one who's format/community you enjoy, you stay there.
Already there are at least three well-known fansites for WAR. Those being only-war, war-rvr and warhammeralliance. I personally prefer the look and feel of war-rvr for information like screenshots, videos (excellent mediaplayer) and the unique features they're offering like the career calculator and the Interactive map. While I think the community on warhammeralliance are way more vocal and easier to have lengthy discussions with. Also the forums are arranged in a much more pleasing way. I'm not a fan of Only-war's format, so I don't go there. I spend my time between war-rvr for content and warhammeralliance for discussions.
This to me is a much better solution than if WAR had an official forum that I didn't like. Then I'd be SOL, since the fansites would only get a margin of the traffic they get without an official forum.
All-in-all you're not losing anything by WAR not having an official forum.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.