PVP, Monster play. Details

Scy22

Ok,  so I don't want to be a hero.



I want to be a bad guy.  I want to slay the goody goodies,  take their women,  and eat their children.



I want to train my Orc in the dual wielding dead hobbit skill.  I want to beat things to death with sacks of dead midgits.



Will I have the option of playing a "monster" all the time? 



Will I be able to level it up as you would a good character?



Are there as many options available to me as there are to you?



Will I be able to roam out of my little cage? (pvp zone) to quest and enjoy the scenery?



Or is is this monster play option limited to people who want to play at evil for a few moments, giggling to themselves at how NAUGHTY they are?  Is this something the weak of heart do on a lark?



Or is this a REAL game play mode?  One in which I don't have to go play my golden shiny slayer of evil in order to take part in.





I don't want to play a hero.  I don't want to stand beside hero's and help them get gear.  I want to stand OVER hero's after having taken their gear.



how deep does this PVP system go?

Ankor

You captured EXACTLY how I feel, and you will have mixed feelings on the answer, just like me. 

This is what I got from reading the last couple Monster PvP tidbits here at MMORPG.com  ((you can look them up, they were both in the last month or so))   This isnt exact, but its on target:

 

At lvl 10, your hero can go to a special scrying pool (sp?) and get transported to the Monetr PvP area.

 

Your monster can be played exclusivly, but only in a rather enormous PvP area for monsters-only, and for heros to adventure within.

 

Your monster starts out at 50 and you can turn in pride points or prestige points or somthing like that, for different war paint features, armors and weapons.

 

You can not go exploring Middle Earth like a hero can.

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Ankor

That really doesnt focus directly upon PvP and Monster Play.

 

*shrugs*

 

Great read though!

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Scy22

Thanks for the info.



Sounds like this game isn't for me.  Crying shame too,  considering I've heard good reviews on graphics,  environment, animations, and combat as a whole.



What the hell is wrong with the MMO market as of late?  You either get a great game with no PVP,  or a greek fucking tragedy with a great PVP system.



If LOTR had a faction based PVP system,  or even a FFA PVP server (yes i know,  all the lore whores would be up in arms)  Then this game could potentially be great.



NOTE: a FFA server would come with a huge red disclaimer that would go something like this:



THIS IS A FFA PVP SERVER.  LORE BE DAMNED.  IF YOU ARE A LORE WHORE, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE, PROCEED TO THE CAREBEAR SERVERS.



Falling short of anything FFA,  a faction based pvp server shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities.  Looks like this game decided to go the safe route,  and as such, I hope it dies a miserable fiery death.

Scy22

Originally posted by solareus

Personal take of monster play , it fills the void of pvp. It also eliminates the need for a gankfest that most pvp games become. I'm a pretty hardcore pvper and when I ready LotRO wasn't to excited. For the most part, all the quests and content in the game make up for the lack of a FFA pvp system



Also the reason I posted that Q/A was from how it sounds, they may introduce something down the road when a lot more of the world is built.

GANKFEST? 



What about griefing?



I don't know about you,  but I get griefed a hell of a lot more in PVE games,  than I ever have in PVP.



At least in a PVP game you can do something about it.



Some jackass can talk shit right to your face,  you can do nothing about it.  I don't want to ignore him,  I want to kill him for making that mistake.



Some jackass can come tag all your mobs,  stealing them.  And your only course of action is to use your "grab ankle" skill,  and /bend over.

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elvenangel

Originally posted by Scy22

Thanks for the info.



Sounds like this game isn't for me.  Crying shame too,  considering I've heard good reviews on graphics,  environment, animations, and combat as a whole.



What the hell is wrong with the MMO market as of late?  You either get a great game with no PVP,  or a greek fucking tragedy with a great PVP system.



If LOTR had a faction based PVP system,  or even a FFA PVP server (yes i know,  all the lore whores would be up in arms)  Then this game could potentially be great.



NOTE: a FFA server would come with a huge red disclaimer that would go something like this:



THIS IS A FFA PVP SERVER.  LORE BE DAMNED.  IF YOU ARE A LORE WHORE, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE, PROCEED TO THE CAREBEAR SERVERS.



Falling short of anything FFA,  a faction based pvp server shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities.  Looks like this game decided to go the safe route,  and as such, I hope it dies a miserable fiery death.

A fiery death aye? So its their fault that the company that OWNS the intellictual property that is Lord of the Rings more than likely said NO to your need to Gank people?    Go play classic servers on UO and gank away, or well be ganked.   Just because the game doesn't let you destroy other people's fun time doesn't mean it shouldn't be successful .    Course after playing it myself the time in which the story starts there really isn't much war going yet its just brewing.    I expect expansions to add in more pvp chances.

jor8888

Monster play is the weakest link of LOTR.  Monsters are gimped big time b/c Turbine believe they must follow the story and make Humans kill all the monsters,  woohoo.   To enter pvp zone u must be level 40+ which means u wont even see ppl pvp till 6 months after the game started.  And from the beta experience if the Humans are wiped they dont even bother coming back for rest of the night.  If u want better pvp/rvr wait for War and Conan. 

Krogg

Originally posted by jor8888

Monster play is the weakest link of LOTR.  Monsters are gimped big time b/c Turbine believe they must follow the story and make Humans kill all the monsters,  woohoo.   To enter pvp zone u must be level 40+ which means u wont even see ppl pvp till 6 months after the game started.  And from the beta experience if the Humans are wiped they dont even bother coming back for rest of the night.  If u want better pvp/rvr wait for War and Conan. 

It won't take 6 months.  There is plenty of room to expand the pvp scenarios in LOTRO, and what they are starting with may not be up to par with every pvp'ers standard but it is an interesting way they've gone about it, not to mention that is new and in keeping with the spirit of the game.  People always want 'new' unless it is somehow different from the old.. go figure.

Anyway, as I said, it will not take 6 months for people to hit 40.  Many will be halfway there even before release (if the open-beta cap for pre-orders is 20 as I've read), and it won't be much longer into release until those areas are being used by many.

From what I've seen of the game myself, in closed beta, is that Turbine is building an extremely solid game with a huge future.  

Kemenlith

Originally posted by Scy22

Thanks for the info.



Sounds like this game isn't for me.  Crying shame too,  considering I've heard good reviews on graphics,  environment, animations, and combat as a whole.



What the hell is wrong with the MMO market as of late?  You either get a great game with no PVP,  or a greek fucking tragedy with a great PVP system.



If LOTR had a faction based PVP system,  or even a FFA PVP server (yes i know,  all the lore whores would be up in arms)  Then this game could potentially be great.



NOTE: a FFA server would come with a huge red disclaimer that would go something like this:



THIS IS A FFA PVP SERVER.  LORE BE DAMNED.  IF YOU ARE A LORE WHORE, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE, PROCEED TO THE CAREBEAR SERVERS.



Falling short of anything FFA,  a faction based pvp server shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities.  Looks like this game decided to go the safe route,  and as such, I hope it dies a miserable fiery death.

There is no way in hell a LOTRO game set in Middle Earth would work with playable monster races. Absolutely. No. Freaking. Way.



Why? Because you'd have level 50 orcs running around the Shire rompastomping on poor little level 5 hobbit girls and boys. Yes, turbine could set up a tier system to prevent this, but then it breaks the lore. What orc in his right mind would let an innocent little hobbit walk by without even growling? It just doesn't fit the lore for LOTRO. And guess what? The lore is what makes LOTR what it is. Yes the lore has been bent in the game, but then again the movies completely destroyed huge parts of the lore to make the story adaptable to film. The lore is what is supposed to make someone want to play LOTRO, so if you say "LORE BE DAMNED" it removes the whole point of a LOTR game. Faction based PvP would not work. If you limited the zones the PvPers could go to they would whine and moan. If you made a tier system to prevent ganking they would whine and moan. Basically if you did anything to keep them from preying on the lower level players they would whine and moan. For Lord of the Rings it doesn't work. Monster play is great the way it is. And it like all other features of LOTRO will be expanded upon. With future expansions I would be shocked if there were NOT new Monster play zones, and that you could travel to and from different Monster play zones. New bad races will open up.



Obviously you don't give a shit for Lord of a Rings. You just want a new favorite game to play. Just like you said this isn't for you. So don't play, bitch, whine, moan, or be a total dick about it. Also please refrain from attacking those of us who actually enjoy the lore and atmosphere of Lord of the Rings, because that is what truely makes this game different and unique.

Kemenlith

Originally posted by Scy22

Originally posted by solareus

Personal take of monster play , it fills the void of pvp. It also eliminates the need for a gankfest that most pvp games become. I'm a pretty hardcore pvper and when I ready LotRO wasn't to excited. For the most part, all the quests and content in the game make up for the lack of a FFA pvp system



Also the reason I posted that Q/A was from how it sounds, they may introduce something down the road when a lot more of the world is built.

GANKFEST? 



What about griefing?



I don't know about you,  but I get griefed a hell of a lot more in PVE games,  than I ever have in PVP.



At least in a PVP game you can do something about it.



Some jackass can talk shit right to your face,  you can do nothing about it.  I don't want to ignore him,  I want to kill him for making that mistake.



Some jackass can come tag all your mobs,  stealing them.  And your only course of action is to use your "grab ankle" skill,  and /bend over.





Sounds like you need a dose of EVE Online. If you want amazing PvP, and to kill someone just for pissing you off this is the game for you. I could even give you my old character if you wanted. But wait, you're probably just going to make some comment about how much the economy or PvE sucks in EVE.

cpt.Balerion

Scy22: um kiddo, do you mind explaining how do you actually imagine a pvp system in LOTR? in a more mature way please



if you want a pvp ganking game, go play something else, LOTRO will be succesfull even without you, don't worry

Halleck2

Originally posted by Scy22  

Yes,  I want a game that has the balls to actually implement a good PVP system along with a good overall game.  This could have very well been it.



Just because you're too much of a pussy to handle such a system doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.  You're the type of player I camp until you quit.  Because you dont have what it takes to survive in an environment where big brother isnt holding your hand.



You missed the part where it clearly,  in capitalized red letters said to keep walking.  This type of thing isnt for you.  Its for people who a shred of competitiveness.  Those of us who want human competition, as opposed to grinding on the predictable MOB all day long.



I'd eat your lunch of I could,  but from the looks of it, you'll never be in my league,  so we probably won't cross paths.



Player conflict wouldn't cut it in LOTR?  You spew this shit as if you have a clue.  This game would thrive in a system like this.  Just because the story ends with the good guys winning,  doesn't mean there couldnt be a system in which there are warring factions without a defined resolution.  If you want something so predictable,  just go watch the movies again.



That seems to be what you're after.  Someone telling you exactly what to do,  in order, so that the game ends perfectly as designed by the lore.  What the fuck is the point in that?  A MMO should be dynamic.  Players should make an impact on the game.  What you propose is some communistic take on how the game should be run in a linear fashion.



It's people like you who ruin what could be a great concept,  you're a fucking coward.

Oh I love little mmo nerds calling people out from behind a comp monitor haha.  You want competitiveness?  Try getting a job in RL knob.   Preferably one that involves you getting shot at.  This game is what it is designed as, a pve game.  If you took the time to research this before you started spewing your bs all over this thread you would know this.  Of course, I'm not exactly surprised you didn't.  There are some bright lights to stage left I think you might be interested in now, off you go, theres a good boy.

Greek_Matt

If ever there was a world suited to a PvP-style of game, it's Tolkien's Middle Earth - not only is there the classic clash between Good vs Evil, but within these groups there are constant references throughout his lore to conflict and mistrust between the different races, and even the different kingdoms. Hell, that was the whole reason why the Fellowship was so remarkable to begin with - it was a group that would ordinarily be at each other's throats putting aside their differences for a common goal. To artificially restrict this tension and animosity to text RPing and a few cheap emotes is pathetic and unnecessary. In Tolkien's world, if a human wandered into the Elven forests he could reasonably expect to be killed out of hand, as would an Elf in a Dwarven stronghold etc etc. Forcing everyone to be ghey Hobbits holding hands in the Prancing Pony greatly diminishes what otherwise sounds like a great game with loads of potential.

Ralsar

LOTRO is not and probably never will be a game for PvPers.  As other people have said, Shadowbane and EVE Online are the best PvP games out right now.  Those are the games to play if you want PvP.



I am a casual playing, story loving, quest humping junky so LOTRO is a perfect fit for me.  I think Monster Play is an absolute blast.  The quests are fun and I get a sick pleasure out of killing hobbits and the like.  As a PvP mini-game it is really well done, but it doesn't make LOTRO a PvP game.

Ralsar

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

If ever there was a world suited to a PvP-style of game, it's Tolkien's Middle Earth - not only is there the classic clash between Good vs Evil, but within these groups there are constant references throughout his lore to conflict and mistrust between the different races, and even the different kingdoms. Hell, that was the whole reason why the Fellowship was so remarkable to begin with - it was a group that would ordinarily be at each other's throats putting aside their differences for a common goal. To artificially restrict this tension and animosity to text RPing and a few cheap emotes is pathetic and unnecessary. In Tolkien's world, if a human wandered into the Elven forests he could reasonably expect to be killed out of hand, as would an Elf in a Dwarven stronghold etc etc. Forcing everyone to be ghey Hobbits holding hands in the Prancing Pony greatly diminishes the potential of what otherwise sounds like a great game with loads of potential.

Being protective of your homeland (which you have exagerrated) and being in a state of war are entirely different.  This whole time period is about the races banding together to drive back the forces of Sauron.  There is nothing in the books to suggest any of the races were actively killing each other during the Third Age.

Demz2

You do realise mosnter play is not PVP?

Lotr has no pvp what so ever, and to name mosnter play as pvp is darn right scandalous, and is misleading to many players.

Ralsar

Originally posted by Demz2


You do realise mosnter play is not PVP?
Lotr has no pvp what so ever, and to name mosnter play as pvp is darn right scandalous, and is misleading to many players.

This is sort of arguing semantics, but it is true that Turbine calls it PvMP.  But still you have players verus players.  Sure half the group isn't using their hero characters but you still have players killing players.

busdriver

Originally posted by Scy22

 

Yes,  I want a game that has the balls to actually implement a good PVP system along with a good overall game.  This could have very well been it.

Could have, should have, well it's not, so let it go. LoTRO is for PvErs and RPs.



Just go to Darkfall forums and start praying. Darkfall is the only MMORPG with real PvP. Too bad it's also a great candidate for next vapor.

Greek_Matt

Originally posted by Ralsar

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

If ever there was a world suited to a PvP-style of game, it's Tolkien's Middle Earth - not only is there the classic clash between Good vs Evil, but within these groups there are constant references throughout his lore to conflict and mistrust between the different races, and even the different kingdoms. Hell, that was the whole reason why the Fellowship was so remarkable to begin with - it was a group that would ordinarily be at each other's throats putting aside their differences for a common goal. To artificially restrict this tension and animosity to text RPing and a few cheap emotes is pathetic and unnecessary. In Tolkien's world, if a human wandered into the Elven forests he could reasonably expect to be killed out of hand, as would an Elf in a Dwarven stronghold etc etc. Forcing everyone to be ghey Hobbits holding hands in the Prancing Pony greatly diminishes the potential of what otherwise sounds like a great game with loads of potential.

Being protective of your homeland (which you have exagerrated) and being in a state of war are entirely different.  This whole time period is about the races banding together to drive back the forces of Sauron.  There is nothing in the books to suggest any of the races were actively killing each other during the Third Age.



Given that the death penalty in this game is so minimal, you could view PvP less as "actively killing" other players and more as `driving them off your lands' or whatever. As for the `banding together', that was very slow, very grudging and certainly not universal. Macro-politics aside, you can be fairly sure that there remained pockets of dissent, banditry and local conflict almost everywhere that wasn't directly in the Front Line of battle. Just because Tolkien didn't specifically cover it doesn't make it inconceivable. To say that this universe can't possibly work with a PvP element is quite simply wrong. Sure, it involves a LOT more work on the part of developers (balancing classes against each other as well as against drones), which is probably a consideration here. But the end product remains far more interesting and challenging than purely grinding mindless mobs, no matter how well you dress 'em up with flowery quest jargon.

Demz2

since the latates beta patch, turbine have dramatically increased the XP needed to attain a new level, meaning alot of extra grind, due to the fact they do not have enough quests or content to keep up.  Go look on the lotr beta forums there is outrage at the nerfs give to xp and classes and professions in the latest patch

JonMichael

Originally posted by Scy22

Thanks for the info.



Sounds like this game isn't for me.  Crying shame too,  considering I've heard good reviews on graphics,  environment, animations, and combat as a whole.



What the hell is wrong with the MMO market as of late?  You either get a great game with no PVP,  or a greek fucking tragedy with a great PVP system.



If LOTR had a faction based PVP system,  or even a FFA PVP server (yes i know,  all the lore whores would be up in arms)  Then this game could potentially be great.



NOTE: a FFA server would come with a huge red disclaimer that would go something like this:



THIS IS A FFA PVP SERVER.  LORE BE DAMNED.  IF YOU ARE A LORE WHORE, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE, PROCEED TO THE CAREBEAR SERVERS.



Falling short of anything FFA,  a faction based pvp server shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities.  Looks like this game decided to go the safe route,  and as such, I hope it dies a miserable fiery death.

Yup... this game is definately not for you. 

Try AoC or WAR when they come out.. sounds much more to your liking!

Ralsar

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Given that the death penalty in this game is so minimal, you could view PvP less as "actively killing" other players and more as `driving them off your lands' or whatever. As for the `banding together', that was very slow, very grudging and certainly not universal. Macro-politics aside, you can be fairly sure that there remained pockets of dissent, banditry and local conflict almost everywhere that wasn't directly in the Front Line of battle. Just because Tolkien didn't specifically cover it doesn't make it inconceivable. To say that this universe can't possibly work with a PvP element is quite simply wrong. Sure, it involves a LOT more work on the part of developers (balancing classes against each other as well as against drones), which is probably a consideration here. But the end product remains far more interesting and challenging than purely grinding mindless mobs, no matter how well you dress 'em up with flowery quest jargon.

The fact that Tolkien didn't specify that such conflict was occuring across Middle Earth is why it won't be in the game.  Turbine isn't given free reign here.  They are allowed to flesh out unexplored parts of the map with their own creations but they still have to stick to the world that Tolkien created.



For example, it is possible that more Balrog's existed in the world.  There was more than one Balrog that went underground after the events in the Silmarillion but Tolkien only wrote about Durin's Bane being active during the Third Age so that will be the only Balrog.  Tolkien Enterprises won't allow Turbine to make certain extrapolations.



That being said, now that I think about it, even the newbie areas deal with conflicts between the "good" races.  The Blackwood' s and the Dourhands for example.  So you aren't off your rocker here.  I hear what you are saying.  The races weren't walking around hugging each other.  Turbine just wants us to play fellowship calibur heroes and that is what we'll be playing.

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