Pretty simple from my perspective, better control for the style I play. Take City of Hero's, the game would be completely unplayable with a point to click method, that holds true to any game that allows free roaming in the environment. The other game I play mmo wise atm is Vanguard and the environment plays a role in how you move there as well. Try to jump up on ledge to snipe a target with a arrow or kite a enemy while bouncing up the side of a building in City of Hero's.
I think the point and click method will hold back the next generation of games by limiting you in how you can interact with the world. Thats what will separate the games from the old style of gaming, more immersion with the world around you or the lack thereof. So for those that enjoy games made with point and click in mind I can understand why they would be confused by the disliking of the point and click system. However for those that like to strafe around an enemy or any number of other things you can't do as well with point and click the system can seem very counter-intuitive.
Point and Click = "bird perspective" like diablo WASD = for a free 3D world to roam around like DAOC
I would never ever play a game like AoC, WAR, DAOC with point and click, for me it ruins the game big time. I want to be a port of the world to be totally free in my movement.
That's why I don't like GW, you cannot jump there. Even though I hate people who constantly jump due to sheer boredom I want it implemented (still waiting for a game that has a little penatly for jumpers, like lesser engergy).
P&c isnt history, far from it. WASD is imo, pointless in mmorpg's which don't have twitch based gameplay. P&C has just so many more advantages over WASD.
P&c isnt history, far from it. WASD is imo, pointless in mmorpg's which don't have twitch based gameplay. P&C has just so many more advantages over WASD.
What about the fact it limits your ability to manipulate your character within certain forms of mmo gaming? If you can give me one advantage to using a point and click interface within games such as City of Hero's then cool. I would argue its not a case of twitch based gameplay, more so an advantage exist in movement specifically when moving vertically. When playing a game from the third/first person view, point and click becomes a monumental pain. I can see the benefits in the overhead style of gaming but once mmo's went to a 3rd person perspective(at least in western mmo's) those benefits began to be outweighed by the negatives. Many say you can play with one hand with point and click but the fact is even those that use wasd usually support movement with holding the mouse buttons or autorun, plus add the ability to strafe around a foe with ease as well as the abiity to control your character while jumping with better precison. Now that i think of it I can't think of any point and click games that allow your toon to jump and allow movement vertically.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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P&c isnt history, far from it. WASD is imo, pointless in mmorpg's which don't have twitch based gameplay. P&C has just so many more advantages over WASD.
BS, YOU COULD NEVER EVER PLAY AoC WITH P&C, it would cripple the gameplay so much.
Please enlighten us with those so called "advantages"....
... Advantage 1: I don't have to move so much I can just click and get fatter. Advantage 2: I'm a cheapskate and like potionspamming, koreangrindfests.
MMOs change, they get more complex and you want to keep P&C...haha.....I've played MMOs with P&C and didn't feel any real advantage over WASD. But then again I am not a lazy fool and I like epic gameworlds.
point to move is ok though prefer it for rts's. WASD I much prefer, and was quite surprised playing Morrowind recently that that was the control system it opted for.
I like P&C better, but i "grew up" on the RTS genre.
But i don't like WASD because it kills immersion. You are running one way, swinging your sword another way, and in the time it takes you to complete the attack, you have jumped twice changed directions ten times and turned around 1080 degrees. And yet somehow you crit even though it looks like you completely missed or were swinging at a direction/angle that could not possibly land for any real damage. It's unrealistic, out-of-place, cluncky, artificial, mechanical, etc. and fails miserably to emulate how things work in RL.
But i do agree 100% that game developers should put more thought/effort into giving P&C players the mobility of WASD games. Standing still spamming specials is lame, almost as destructive to immersion as jerky WASD movements that defy the laws of physics.
Dear game developers: F1-F12 are not the only buttons on a keyboard. No one has a gun to your head telling you that letter keys must be reserved for useless interface shortcuts. We P&C players want the ability to strafe. We want a face-your-target mode. We want something better than stand still and auto attack.
I generally use arrow keys where it is possible and where the camera doesn't do weird, wonky things when navigating that way. (Dear devs, default swing cam = NO.) My second choice is mouse navigation -- mouselook and hold both buttons to move. After that, point and click. I like the freedom of scrolling in and out and swinging around to different angles as a lot of P&C games allow, but I invariably click things I don't mean to.
I certainly wouldn't refuse to play a game on the grounds that it is P&C, unless the interface was otherwise confusing and/or hard to use. In fact, games with any sort of movement interface can get uninstalled right quickly for a bad overall interface.
I've never gotten the hang of WASD, so WASD only movement would probably frustrate me to the point of quitting, likely because I hate shooters, and my first real 3D first person game was EQ, where arrow keys work just fine. But I'd try that WASD game for a few minutes, anyway.
... This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Originally posted by Gameloading P&c isnt history, far from it. WASD is imo, pointless in mmorpg's which don't have twitch based gameplay. P&C has just so many more advantages over WASD.
BS, YOU COULD NEVER EVER PLAY AoC WITH P&C, it would cripple the gameplay so much.
Please enlighten us with those so called "advantages"....
... Advantage 1: I don't have to move so much I can just click and get fatter.
Advantage 2: I'm a cheapskate and like potionspamming, koreangrindfests.
MMOs change, they get more complex and you want to keep P&C...haha.....I've played MMOs with P&C and didn't feel any real advantage over WASD. But then again I am not a lazy fool and I like epic gameworlds.
What part of "In mmorpg's which don't have twitch based gameplay" did you not understand?
The advantages in NON-TWITCH BASED MMORPG's (I typed in caps to make sure you don't miss it this time) is the fact You can move and change the camera with one hand, while having a full hand free on the keyboard to use skills and chat, which is vital in group vs group pvp.
In respond to the other person who used City of Heroes as an example, I see your point. it WOULD be possible with point & click, but it would have to revamp the entire movement system. Instead of CoH's current camera point, it would have to change to a more top-down view.
Most 3D games today (example: WoW, EQ2, LOTRO, etc.) should give a player the option to use either WASD or P&C for movement. It just seems like poor programming not to. Also, I think most games should have customizable key bindings for us left handed players out there. I like to move my WASD keys to the Number Pad (Num 8, Num 4, Num 6, Num 2, and etc.) because my left hand is using the mouse. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Thats my point, you would destroy City of Hero's in an attempt to simply make it playable with point and click. Super jumping from point to point would be such a hassle I can't imagine attempting it. I respect that you enjoy games that are setup for the p&c play style but thats my point, p&c limits you're interaction with the environment and you're ability to play from a 1st/3rd person perspective. This makes it neither the past nor the future of mmo's and simply a choice for games that use the traditional overhead perspective in which jumping and strafing don't play a role in combat, otherwise it simply equates to a monumental headache for the end user.
Take City of Hero's, the game would be completely unplayable with a point to click method, that holds true to any game that allows free roaming in the environment.
I think the point and click method will hold back the next generation of games by limiting you in how you can interact with the world.
There is very little that you can do WASD that you can't do with point a click. I could literally make a First Person point and click game if I wanted to. Most point and click games have the player following the cursor around and with a little innovation (known as the middle mouse button) you could even implement strafing. Most MMORPGs use autolocking anyway, so things like strafing and jumping are way more than doable. Come to think of it, if you made one of the mouse buttons context sensitive, you could have as much interaction with the environment as your game required.
However for those that like to strafe around an enemy
I already covered this one, but I would like to add that most character abilities automatically hit or miss regardless of the target's location in the game world. Jumping, strafing, or even ducking behind a tree does no good.
I would argue its not a case of twitch based gameplay, more so an advantage exist in movement specifically when moving vertically.
And how often is "moving vertically" really required in an MMORPG. You can climb ladders with point and click. Hell, you could even jump with point and click (double click or middle mouse button). Straffing can be made automatic once you've locked an enemy, so this is just another excuse for you to be closed minded.
BS, YOU COULD NEVER EVER PLAY AoC WITH P&C,
Haven't played AoC, neither have most of the people on this forum, so I can't tell you one way or another. Although, I'm willing to bet that I could pull it off with a little thought.
Advantage 1: I don't have to move so much I can just click and get fatter.
Yep, pushing the WASD buttons just burns so many more calories. Why, I lost 120 lbs. playing Quake 4!!!
Advantage 2: I'm a cheapskate and like potionspamming, koreangrindfests.
And this is different from spamming potions and buffs in P2P western games how?
Personally, I think there's room for both styles in MMORPGs, but I'm not gonna claim that one or the other is the "end all and be all" of interface options.
Just a few things I have to respond to... Take City of Hero's, the game would be completely unplayable with a point to click method, that holds true to any game that allows free roaming in the environment. Um.... I take it you've never played Freedom Force. I think the point and click method will hold back the next generation of games by limiting you in how you can interact with the world. There is very little that you can do WASD that you can't do with point a click. I could literally make a First Person point and click game if I wanted to. Most point and click games have the player following the cursor around and with a little innovation (known as the middle mouse button) you could even implement strafing. Most MMORPGs use autolocking anyway, so things like strafing and jumping are way more than doable. Come to think of it, if you made one of the mouse buttons context sensitive, you could have as much interaction with the environment as your game required. However for those that like to strafe around an enemy I already covered this one, but I would like to add that most character abilities automatically hit or miss regardless of the target's location in the game world. Jumping, strafing, or even ducking behind a tree does no good. I would argue its not a case of twitch based gameplay, more so an advantage exist in movement specifically when moving vertically. And how often is "moving vertically" really required in an MMORPG. You can climb ladders with point and click. Hell, you could even jump with point and click (double click or middle mouse button). Straffing can be made automatic once you've locked an enemy, so this is just another excuse for you to be closed minded. BS, YOU COULD NEVER EVER PLAY AoC WITH P&C, Haven't played AoC, neither have most of the people on this forum, so I can't tell you one way or another. Although, I'm willing to bet that I could pull it off with a little thought. Advantage 1: I don't have to move so much I can just click and get fatter. Yep, pushing the WASD buttons just burns so many more calories. Why, I lost 120 lbs. playing Quake 4!!! Advantage 2: I'm a cheapskate and like potionspamming, koreangrindfests. And this is different from spamming potions and buffs in P2P western games how? Personally, I think there's room for both styles in MMORPGs, but I'm not gonna claim that one or the other is the "end all and be all" of interface options.
My point wasn't that it wouldn't be doable more so that it wouldn't be as intuitive, feel free to disagree but COH was made with WASD in mind and just because you think its doable doesn't make it the right choice. Next you're comment of how often do you go vertical, well in COH its VERY frequent, I've been playing the game for a year and a half and if I thought for a second I had to click in the air in various points to path my jumps I'd walk away. I actually own freedom force and comparing a point and click rts to a 3rd person mmo that is VERY dependent on vertical movement is like comparing apples and oranges. You're only response to my comments for why COH would not translate well to a p&c control scheme is to compare it to a rts superhero game, thanks for playing but pretty weak comment.
Now for the comment that strafe does nothing to determine things in a MMO, I'll give you one example, Vanguard. When I play my ranger if I'm quick I can strafe to the back side and get critcals on a much more frequent basis, this is especially true in groups were getting to the back side quickly as the enemy turns to attack you will allow you to get moves off that are only accessible while you are behind the enemy.
Jumping/Flying/teleporting does play a huge roll in COH as well during combat. If you can jump out of range of a attack then you don't get hit. If you quickly fly 5 stories up and the enemies can't fly or super jump to you it can be the difference between life and death. With the addition of flying mounts in games like WOW and Vanguard the vertical movement is becoming more and more important, especially considering that Vanguard has air to air combat.
The topic is on why people dislike Click to move and I gave very valid examples. Its not a issue of being able to have a click to move system in place its whether it will work as well for me and clearly for the games I play it wouldn't. The OP asked why we hate it, well I don't hate it but I much prefer a system in WASD, that I feel like gives me much better control in the situations I listed. Like I said in earlier post for traditional overhead games click to move can be fine but for 3rd person mmo's its a pain in the ass.
Well, EVE Players should be banned (just kidding ;D ) from this discussion, there is a huge difference between navigating a ship with P&C than a walking player.
The feel alone from WASD is much better (feels more real and natural) for most people and that's why all major MMOs in the future will have WASD controls. AoC is based around WASD, trust me you don't wanna change that.
P&C supporters are like hardcore gamers, there will be games from time to time to satisfy your fetishs but most devs are not stupid. The majority of people want WASD (I am not talking about the MMORPG.COM community I mean ALL players), so suck it up it's just the better way to play.
Point and click...no just no.....not having direct control over your town just blows. It doesn't feel natural and will cripple the gameplay of most games coming out. And like I said earlier, MMOs will be more then button smashing soon.
PS: There is a juge difference between a korean grinder and a western mmorpg. They may have both grinds and timesinks but our are a little more complex. And there is no major western mmo where you can potion spam all the time (unless you really want to be broke).
Comments
I think the point and click method will hold back the next generation of games by limiting you in how you can interact with the world. Thats what will separate the games from the old style of gaming, more immersion with the world around you or the lack thereof. So for those that enjoy games made with point and click in mind I can understand why they would be confused by the disliking of the point and click system. However for those that like to strafe around an enemy or any number of other things you can't do as well with point and click the system can seem very counter-intuitive.
Peace
Point and Click = "bird perspective" like diablo
WASD = for a free 3D world to roam around like DAOC
I would never ever play a game like AoC, WAR, DAOC with point and click, for me it ruins the game big time. I want to be a port of the world to be totally free in my movement.
That's why I don't like GW, you cannot jump there. Even though I hate people who constantly jump due to sheer boredom I want it implemented (still waiting for a game that has a little penatly for jumpers, like lesser engergy).
P&C = History
WASD = Future
Peace
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Final Fantasy 7
That said, I prefer WASD movement....which frees my mouse up to target or mouselook.
and like someone else said...I don't accidently click on some distant object and suddenly run off in an odd direction.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
BS, YOU COULD NEVER EVER PLAY AoC WITH P&C, it would cripple the gameplay so much.
Please enlighten us with those so called "advantages"....
... Advantage 1: I don't have to move so much I can just click and get fatter.
Advantage 2: I'm a cheapskate and like potionspamming, koreangrindfests.
MMOs change, they get more complex and you want to keep P&C...haha.....I've played MMOs with P&C and didn't feel any real advantage over WASD. But then again I am not a lazy fool and I like epic gameworlds.
point to move is ok though prefer it for rts's. WASD I much prefer, and was quite surprised playing Morrowind recently that that was the control system it opted for.
But i don't like WASD because it kills immersion. You are running one way, swinging your sword another way, and in the time it takes you to complete the attack, you have jumped twice changed directions ten times and turned around 1080 degrees. And yet somehow you crit even though it looks like you completely missed or were swinging at a direction/angle that could not possibly land for any real damage. It's unrealistic, out-of-place, cluncky, artificial, mechanical, etc. and fails miserably to emulate how things work in RL.
But i do agree 100% that game developers should put more thought/effort into giving P&C players the mobility of WASD games. Standing still spamming specials is lame, almost as destructive to immersion as jerky WASD movements that defy the laws of physics.
Dear game developers: F1-F12 are not the only buttons on a keyboard. No one has a gun to your head telling you that letter keys must be reserved for useless interface shortcuts. We P&C players want the ability to strafe. We want a face-your-target mode. We want something better than stand still and auto attack.
I generally use arrow keys where it is possible and where the camera doesn't do weird, wonky things when navigating that way. (Dear devs, default swing cam = NO.) My second choice is mouse navigation -- mouselook and hold both buttons to move. After that, point and click. I like the freedom of scrolling in and out and swinging around to different angles as a lot of P&C games allow, but I invariably click things I don't mean to.
I certainly wouldn't refuse to play a game on the grounds that it is P&C, unless the interface was otherwise confusing and/or hard to use. In fact, games with any sort of movement interface can get uninstalled right quickly for a bad overall interface.
I've never gotten the hang of WASD, so WASD only movement would probably frustrate me to the point of quitting, likely because I hate shooters, and my first real 3D first person game was EQ, where arrow keys work just fine. But I'd try that WASD game for a few minutes, anyway.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
BS, YOU COULD NEVER EVER PLAY AoC WITH P&C, it would cripple the gameplay so much.
Please enlighten us with those so called "advantages"....
... Advantage 1: I don't have to move so much I can just click and get fatter.
Advantage 2: I'm a cheapskate and like potionspamming, koreangrindfests.
What part of "In mmorpg's which don't have twitch based gameplay" did you not understand?MMOs change, they get more complex and you want to keep P&C...haha.....I've played MMOs with P&C and didn't feel any real advantage over WASD. But then again I am not a lazy fool and I like epic gameworlds.
The advantages in NON-TWITCH BASED MMORPG's (I typed in caps to make sure you don't miss it this time) is the fact You can move and change the camera with one hand, while having a full hand free on the keyboard to use skills and chat, which is vital in group vs group pvp.
In respond to the other person who used City of Heroes as an example, I see your point. it WOULD be possible with point & click, but it would have to revamp the entire movement system. Instead of CoH's current camera point, it would have to change to a more top-down view.
Most 3D games today (example: WoW, EQ2, LOTRO, etc.) should give a player the option to use either WASD or P&C for movement. It just seems like poor programming not to. Also, I think most games should have customizable key bindings for us left handed players out there. I like to move my WASD keys to the Number Pad (Num 8, Num 4, Num 6, Num 2, and etc.) because my left hand is using the mouse. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Peace
Just a few things I have to respond to...
Take City of Hero's, the game would be completely unplayable with a point to click method, that holds true to any game that allows free roaming in the environment.
Um.... I take it you've never played Freedom Force.
I think the point and click method will hold back the next generation of games by limiting you in how you can interact with the world.
There is very little that you can do WASD that you can't do with point a click. I could literally make a First Person point and click game if I wanted to. Most point and click games have the player following the cursor around and with a little innovation (known as the middle mouse button) you could even implement strafing. Most MMORPGs use autolocking anyway, so things like strafing and jumping are way more than doable. Come to think of it, if you made one of the mouse buttons context sensitive, you could have as much interaction with the environment as your game required.
However for those that like to strafe around an enemy
I already covered this one, but I would like to add that most character abilities automatically hit or miss regardless of the target's location in the game world. Jumping, strafing, or even ducking behind a tree does no good.
I would argue its not a case of twitch based gameplay, more so an advantage exist in movement specifically when moving vertically.
And how often is "moving vertically" really required in an MMORPG. You can climb ladders with point and click. Hell, you could even jump with point and click (double click or middle mouse button). Straffing can be made automatic once you've locked an enemy, so this is just another excuse for you to be closed minded.
BS, YOU COULD NEVER EVER PLAY AoC WITH P&C,
Haven't played AoC, neither have most of the people on this forum, so I can't tell you one way or another. Although, I'm willing to bet that I could pull it off with a little thought.
Advantage 1: I don't have to move so much I can just click and get fatter.
Yep, pushing the WASD buttons just burns so many more calories. Why, I lost 120 lbs. playing Quake 4!!!
Advantage 2: I'm a cheapskate and like potionspamming, koreangrindfests.
And this is different from spamming potions and buffs in P2P western games how?
Personally, I think there's room for both styles in MMORPGs, but I'm not gonna claim that one or the other is the "end all and be all" of interface options.
My point wasn't that it wouldn't be doable more so that it wouldn't be as intuitive, feel free to disagree but COH was made with WASD in mind and just because you think its doable doesn't make it the right choice. Next you're comment of how often do you go vertical, well in COH its VERY frequent, I've been playing the game for a year and a half and if I thought for a second I had to click in the air in various points to path my jumps I'd walk away. I actually own freedom force and comparing a point and click rts to a 3rd person mmo that is VERY dependent on vertical movement is like comparing apples and oranges. You're only response to my comments for why COH would not translate well to a p&c control scheme is to compare it to a rts superhero game, thanks for playing but pretty weak comment.
Now for the comment that strafe does nothing to determine things in a MMO, I'll give you one example, Vanguard. When I play my ranger if I'm quick I can strafe to the back side and get critcals on a much more frequent basis, this is especially true in groups were getting to the back side quickly as the enemy turns to attack you will allow you to get moves off that are only accessible while you are behind the enemy.
Jumping/Flying/teleporting does play a huge roll in COH as well during combat. If you can jump out of range of a attack then you don't get hit. If you quickly fly 5 stories up and the enemies can't fly or super jump to you it can be the difference between life and death. With the addition of flying mounts in games like WOW and Vanguard the vertical movement is becoming more and more important, especially considering that Vanguard has air to air combat.
The topic is on why people dislike Click to move and I gave very valid examples. Its not a issue of being able to have a click to move system in place its whether it will work as well for me and clearly for the games I play it wouldn't. The OP asked why we hate it, well I don't hate it but I much prefer a system in WASD, that I feel like gives me much better control in the situations I listed. Like I said in earlier post for traditional overhead games click to move can be fine but for 3rd person mmo's its a pain in the ass.
Well, EVE Players should be banned (just kidding ;D ) from this discussion, there is a huge difference between navigating a ship with P&C than a walking player.
The feel alone from WASD is much better (feels more real and natural) for most people and that's why all major MMOs in the future will have WASD controls. AoC is based around WASD, trust me you don't wanna change that.
P&C supporters are like hardcore gamers, there will be games from time to time to satisfy your fetishs but most devs are not stupid. The majority of people want WASD (I am not talking about the MMORPG.COM community I mean ALL players), so suck it up it's just the better way to play.
Point and click...no just no.....not having direct control over your town just blows. It doesn't feel natural and will cripple the gameplay of most games coming out. And like I said earlier, MMOs will be more then button smashing soon.
PS: There is a juge difference between a korean grinder and a western mmorpg. They may have both grinds and timesinks but our are a little more complex.
And there is no major western mmo where you can potion spam all the time (unless you really want to be broke).