So no stealth?

Jarhead1775

I heard that WAR wont have any stealthing classes, can anyone tell me why? There is usaully a reason why they would leave something like that out, but u never know they could have just not put it in for no reason at all.

Any info on this subject would be great~                                                                                                                                                          

~Jarhead

Cowinspace

Stealth on an individual level doesn't fit with the lore, the few stealth units in Warhammer are those that hide within larger units of troops (eg. a dark elf assasin that remains hidden within a unit of spearmen or a night goblin fanatic that pops out from a unit of night goblins). As this games is based around individuals rather than massed units it would be silly to implement it.

ironbeard

1.Doesn't go with lore





2. ---WAR, not pansy hiding at the back

callmetoby

Originally posted by mcharj11

They didn't want classes that can stealth because those r the classes that griefers primarily play as. Plus the fact that its unrealistuc for someone to turn invisible just cos they r a rogue or assassin.

While stealth classes may seem to be labelled by many to be "griefers", as you say, that is not the full reason they are not being included in WAR. Here is a quote concerning this from a Q&A... 

"Q: Why are there no Stealth classes in Warhammer?



In the Warhammer universe, or rather within the table top version of the game as it has more influence on the design than the RPG books, the armies that have special units that one would refer to as stealth, is limited to 3 armies.

They are Skaven, Dark Elves and Wood Elves. They are the only armies who have units that are stealth oriented.

Dark Elves and Skaven have assassins, for is their army theme that they are double-crossing individuals and not to be trusted. The Wood Elves are sneaky in that they are limited being able to hide well in forest terrain. Games Workshop would never allow for High Elf or Dwarf to have stealth units since it is not in the nature of their armies to hide. The Empire would be the next possible option, but again it falls in that theme of army, they may not try to hide while fighting the force of Chaos. While it possible that The Empire may have them it does go against conventional Games Workshop intellectual property.

Again this game while it has been developed by Mythic, they have to pass all of the character design and world design through GW, and should GW find not to be in the theme of their game they will say no. "

Noctique

Originally posted by ironbeard

2. ---WAR, not pansy hiding at the back

Rofl sums it all up in 7 words.



If not enough see Toby and his explination

DuraheLL

Originally posted by Jarhead1775


I heard that WAR wont have any stealthing classes, can anyone tell me why? There is usaully a reason why they would leave something like that out, but u never know they could have just not put it in for no reason at all.
Any info on this subject would be great~                                                                                                                                                          
~Jarhead

Another failed post.



You make it sound like something that HAS to be in a MMORPG. I don't know if it will be in the game though.

Nooblord

Another failed post.

What on earth are you talking about?

DuraheLL

Originally posted by Nooblord

Another failed post.

What on earth are you talking about? I think the explanation upon that stands right underneath the sentence you just quoted?

Kyleran

 Lore...intelligent design, whatever...I'm glad to see a game w/o a stealthing class..... 



Real men don't need stealth....

Jarhead1775

Im srry if i made it come off as stealth was something that needed to be in the game. But i was just wondering why WAR was deciding to go a diffrent way instead of what most MMO's do.

I am actually glad they are deciding to leave it out and try something new/diffrent

Skyles

The post by Callmetoby covers the lore reasons really well.  When commenting on the "no stealth" decision, Sanya said:

 

"Stealth, meaning the ability to become totally invisible, is difficult from a game balance perspective. It's no secret to anyone that we have (in Camelot) added more and more counters to invisibility over the years. This is because there is no strategy to deal with an invisible enemy.

Okay, I take that back, there IS a strategy - "be the SECOND guy to see the assassin." As MMOS go, though, it sucks to be the FIRST guy to see the assassin, because it's not so much "seeing" as "attempting to draw breath around six inches of cold steel."

If we could go back in time, we would probably not include invisibility in the rogue toolkit. We would have agility and wall climbing and special tactics and more, but not total invisibility.

And there won't be invisibility in WAR as a result, even though there will be rogue careers."

Sornin

This is something I am quite happy about. I agree that stealth has risks, and therefore must have rewards, and that pulling off an 'assassination' can take tactics, timing, and skill, but at the same time I do find it is too often used to grief, and not just against the enemy.



Ever had an invisible rogue follow you around and KS just because he felt like it? Ever had an invisible rogue follow you around and screw up encounters just for his own amusement? It is not fun, and there is usually no recourse unless you are on a full PvP server. Of course, these things can be done without invisible, but being invisible makes it so much easier and so much more annoying since you never know when it will happen.



Besides, as much as stealth can add to a game, I feel the possibilities for near-instant death from out of nowhere is simply not fun. I do not mind being outplayed and killed, but I like to see who is killing me and have a chance to fight back.



As for it being against the IP, I knew Mythic and GW were dedicated to remaining true to the Warhammer universe, but I am impressed they are going so far as to remove what has become a common MMORPG element to do so. I admire people who can stick to their guns and not compromise.

Jarhead1775

What would be intresting if they let certain classes climb up trees and hide in them to scout out the area. But im sure ur thinking "then they can just climb up trees and hide like a pansy". Well i think they should let all the classes that cant climb up the trees, be able to cut/burn them down with the players still in them.

idk about u but that would sound good/fun and realistic in warfare for me.

~jarhead

Areel

I never liked stealth classes.  They're so cheap in PvP.  There's nothing to do to protect yourself from them.  And being completely invisible in the middle of a field, in broad daylight, is just plain ridiculous.

DuraheLL

Originally posted by Jarhead1775


What would be intresting if they let certain classes climb up trees and hide in them to scout out the area. But im sure ur thinking "then they can just climb up trees and hide like a pansy". Well i think they should let all the classes that cant climb up the trees, be able to cut/burn them down with the players still in them.
idk about u but that would sound good/fun and realistic in warfare for me.
~jarhead

Haha that'd be nice actually

Jarhead1775

Originally posted by DuraheLL

Originally posted by Jarhead1775


What would be intresting if they let certain classes climb up trees and hide in them to scout out the area. But im sure ur thinking "then they can just climb up trees and hide like a pansy". Well i think they should let all the classes that cant climb up the trees, be able to cut/burn them down with the players still in them.
idk about u but that would sound good/fun and realistic in warfare for me.
~jarhead

Haha that'd be nice actually To bad WAR wont look at this forum... or else i could sell them my idea

DuraheLL

Originally posted by Jarhead1775

To bad WAR wont look at this forum... or else i could sell them my idea

Well we have Richard_Mythic in this forum though, and I'm sure he reads every thread here ;D

Jarhead1775

Originally posted by DuraheLL

Originally posted by Jarhead1775

To bad WAR wont look at this forum... or else i could sell them my idea

Well we have Richard_Mythic in this forum though, and I'm sure he reads every thread here ;D

Thats nice  then maybe i do have a chance.

I also think that they should let the engineer class be able to DIG!! under the castle walls or make ladders to climb up the walls with(or blow holes in the wall haha). I dont know if that would be to crazy but it would sound nice for the class.

Adythiel

I love that Mythic is removing Stealth, CC and Long duration buffs from WAR. It's the right move to make.

psyconius

Yeah.. total invisibility stealth is lame. From a roleplaying standpoint as well.



It would be far more intuitive/useful/balanced to allow rogue classes to blend in with their surroundings dynamically. If you are on a flat plain of grass, you will not be invisible. If you are in a dense forest, as long as X amount of geometric objects are in range, you stay hidden. Otherwise the player would atleast be alerted that someone is stalking them. If a simple check is failed then the prey can not target the predator quite yet, but AOE spells would certainly affect him. The prey sees a shadowy figure skulking around in the vegetation. If the predator risks running across open land, he would be fully visible. However, as long as he catches the prey off guard he can still get his damage bonus for assassin type attacks.





I know that is a pipe dream... I just want to see if anyone else would like this system if it were possible. I have played plenty of stealthers and plenty of fodder for them. It will be interesting..

Jarhead1775

Originally posted by psyconius

Yeah.. total invisibility stealth is lame. From a roleplaying standpoint as well.



It would be far more intuitive/useful/balanced to allow rogue classes to blend in with their surroundings dynamically. If you are on a flat plain of grass, you will not be invisible. If you are in a dense forest, as long as X amount of geometric objects are in range, you stay hidden. Otherwise the player would atleast be alerted that someone is stalking them. If a simple check is failed then the prey can not target the predator quite yet, but AOE spells would certainly affect him. The prey sees a shadowy figure skulking around in the vegetation. If the predator risks running across open land, he would be fully visible. However, as long as he catches the prey off guard he can still get his damage bonus for assassin type attacks.





I know that is a pipe dream... I just want to see if anyone else would like this system if it were possible. I have played plenty of stealthers and plenty of fodder for them. It will be interesting..

Yes i agree, blending in with ur surroundings would be great! But although as much as i love it i doubt any game would be coming out with such a good stealthing/hiding system like this one for a while.

DuraheLL

Originally posted by Jarhead1775


Thats nice  then maybe i do have a chance.
I also think that they should let the engineer class be able to DIG!! under the castle walls or make ladders to climb up the walls with(or blow holes in the wall haha). I dont know if that would be to crazy but it would sound nice for the class.

Hehe. Then I think we are heading towards a sandbox game. Ever tried Wurm Online? If players should be able to leave marks upon the world there needs to be some serious adjustments to make that work in the long run

shienarier

I get more and more impressed with Warhammer Online the more i learn about it.

Stealth is such a bad idea in an MMO.

Arath

The problem I think that happens to the rogue class and subsequently stealth (as in invisibility) is that it becomes the single be all end all ability of the class. While it makes things difficult for everybody else its usually the case that said rogue class MUST rely on their invisibility because they have no chance of winning confrontation otherwise. They become so dependant that everything else is second to the skill and as such it seems overpowever or annoying.

As to cutting down trees with enemies in them or blending in different terrain I dont think we'll see anything like that soon (as it means destructable enviroments and I cannot see developers allowing players to level entire forests just because they want to make it difficult for stealth units). It will be interesting to see what kind of rogue classes are implemented. As was mentioned though no crowd control, no long duration stuns (I hope) and no invisibility can only lead to a more fun gameplay experience.

Volkmar

you know? i was thinking of the Dark elves will have an Assassin class and if it will be able to disguise itself as any of the other classes... because that is basically what dark elf assassins do in the TT.

What do you think? the guy is fully visible, BUT he looks like a DE Tank, not an assassin. you charge him, full of snug and he reveal himself as an assasin?

Arath

Originally posted by Volkmar


you know? i was thinking of the Dark elves will have an Assassin class and if it will be able to disguise itself as any of the other classes... because that is basically what dark elf assassins do in the TT.
What do you think? the guy is fully visible, BUT he looks like a DE Tank, not an assassin. you charge him, full of snug and he reveal himself as an assasin?

Well The Chronicles of Spellborn was looking to implement stealth into their game by allowing the Facedancer (the stealth class of the game) to morph and shapeshift into animals that could be found around the world. The player would then have to assume movement similar to those mobs in order to sneak up on players. I think its definately a more intesting appraoch than giving the player an invisibility mode and sound remiscent of what you are describing.

I like the overall concept though and I think that a class somehow disguising itself as something else could be interesting however I dont see it being implemented as it would be a pure PvP skill (uselss on mobs unless the AI was advanced enough to attack differently depending on class which I doubt will be the case). All in all I expect EA Mythic to stick with their past philosophy of creating classes along the lines of what we have seen for the other four races (Tank, Healer/Melee, Damage Dealer, Ranged Damage Dealer/Other) so I dont really see any stealth units as player classes. Who knows though I think we will have to wait a while longer (couple of months) to find out.