Hum.. any 1 can make a soulstone and res some 1, I was told VG was harder than WoW, sounds like easymode to me, where is the risk when you only 1 healer and no way to res him if he dies? Wheres the feeling you have to protect the healer should he draw aggro? Where is the need for the healer to prioritise healing and not over heal so not to draw aggro?
Hum.. any 1 can make a soulstone and res some 1, I was told VG was harder than WoW, sounds like easymode to me, where is the risk when you only 1 healer and no way to res him if he dies? Wheres the feeling you have to protect the healer should he draw aggro? Where is the need for the healer to prioritise healing and not over heal so not to draw aggro?
Give me WoW any day to VG carebear healers.
You mean nerf them healers? Perhaps they will. Because healers, at least the disciple, has feign death like a monk. On the other hand it makes them really useful in a group and groups will take more risks because of this which increases the dynamics of the game away from the holy trinity static gameplay.
That Vanguard is more difficult than other MMO's is not true. Leveling is just slower, giving you time to experience more of the game before reaching level cap. So perhaps less suited for players who are in a hurry to get "there".
Now "there" in WoW was a dead end, and it will be in Vanguard too, I guess, so I am in no hurry to get "there" nor am I tempted to return to any other MMO I have finished in the past, but that is a matter of taste and game playing style. Others might enjoy what is called the "end game" for months or even years. Not my cup of tea though.
3. You can heal on the move. That’s right healing no longer means standing in one place – usually in the back. You can now be involved in the party’s tactics by moving along with the party while you are healing. This can become very important during those fast getaways.
Question : All healing spells can be used on the move ? & how many types of healing spells does each healer type have ?
You can move and cast spells, you just move slower.
This is something I wish ALL mmo's did. I always play a caster and I can't stand being stationary when I cast spells; I like to move around. In my opinion this is one of the things that makes playing a caster in VG better then WoW. I know a lock can be pretty mobile in WoW, but still stuck standing in place at some point.
Silly but little things like that make a dif.
Melee classses are a dif. story in VG though, but then Lineage2 and EQ2 are the only MMO's I've played that I liked the way the melee classes are done; not even WoW's are fun, IMO.
I agree, moving while casting was one of the few things I liked about VSoH
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
I have been playing a druid since release of Wow (Lvl 70). Large parts of that time have been spent on healing. Mostly endgame healing.
5. In Wow Warlocks can hand out soulstones. All healers can res. Shamans can self res, and druids can combat res. And engineers have a chance to res people. So in raids you won't be corpse running, also corpse runs are quite rare in most 5 man grps. Because you will in most cases have a class setup that allows for ressing after a wipe. For me this mostly about uniqueness of each class. Being a special class really makes you special. Class choice really does matter. So I kinda see it as a drawback in Vanguard, it doesn't really matter what healer you take, just as long as it is a healer. In Wow the difference between a priest, druid, shaman and paladin does mean something. Something I like better.
4. This is nice. But you can't really compare it, since the two games have a rather different approach to itemization.
3. You can heal on the move with many of the HoT's you find in Wow too. And in many of the boss fights moving is a part of the tactics. Or moving, stop heal, move and similar tactics.
2. This is entirely up to how the game is setup. Again Wow goes for the "unique class" approach here. If you want to dps with a healer class you need to put points into the "dps talent tree" of that class. This again means that you will have to make a choice. Something a personally like better. Something that can make you something different than the other priest standing next to you etc.
1. Again, the word unique. All healing classes in Wow can do dmg too, they just can't do it and heal at the same time. Although it happens too, I have been tanking 1 boss, while healing on the next boss with my druid.
Wow has fewer but unique classes. Vanguard has more but not so unique classes. This shows itself in all parts of the 2 games. And you can't really compare them because of that. In Vanguard a healer can heal no matter what. In Wow a healer can heal when specced and with gear as a healer. In the end it boils down to personal preference.
Just a few questions about this game, I am a long time healer in MMOs myself, cleric in eq, cleric in l2, priest in WoW, and I was wondering a few things.
1. Is there healing aggro? I'm guessing not but if so is there a way to reduce aggro? How do "tanks" keep aggro?
2. Is there mana or mana equivilant regen in this game?
3. Does +healing work in a similar way has in WoW?
I have done much research so sorry if these are obvious questions,
1. Yes. Yes. Tanks have "rescues" that can be triggered when their defensive target gets aggro. These rescuse do different things depending on the nature of the tank. For example, a paladins rescue gets aggro and heals the defensive target.
2. Yes -- eneregy
3. Yes and no. Your healing effectiveness is spread out over three attributes. You can also get +healing gear. (You can make any kind of armor have some benefit to healing through the crafting system).
I have always had a healing char as a main in the games I have played. Those include EQ, DAoC, WoW, EQ2 and now Vanguard. Also played some text-based games way back when. In beta, I tried all four main healing classes. Bloodmage just wasn't my thing, so I went on to shaman, disciple and cleric.
I must say that Vanguard is a blast for me as a healer (cleric). There is variety in heals, buffs (and how to manifest them). I can mix in dps as appropriate, perform small rescues and even solo some. As a cleric, a few seconds or so of offtanking can be handled, depending on gear and stance (defensive or dps mode). I love having to make split-second decisions on who/how to heal. That is something I sorely missed in WoW. As a result, lack of healing classes for groups generally isn't the holdup as it can be in other games.
If you've stayed away from playing healers in other games, you may want to give it a try when you can.
6. I guess I could have added to my list a 6 bonus -- the fact that you have a constant defensive target and an offensive target means that you can switch role easier.
I agree with everything you said; but keep in mind you're comparing level 60 gameplay vs. early level Vanguard.
By that I mean, at comparable levels in WoW, it was probably acceptable for you to mess around in bear form as your Druid and not mindnumbingly spam decursive on your Paladin.
Because Vanguard is more group-centric than raiding focused, I never expect it at even end-game to get as bad as WoW in rigidly forcing people into a small niche of what they can and cannot do; but when those tough raiding encounters come along where streamlined and efficient playing of your archetypes best role is necessary, things will naturally be less flexible.
No, because the mechanics just don't work like old healer archetypes. Standing at the back and healing is much much less efficient than fully utilising your secondary role. If the healers just stand at the back and heal, they will eventually run out of mana, however if they fully use their secondary role they accomplish things far more efficiently.
Clerics regain mana by hitting mobs, yes you read that right, using a special melee attack is part of how they manage mana, they also proc healing and numerous group wide buffs by using melee, standing at he back and doing very little is far less efficient. Disciples are even more melee focused, with numerous buffs and all their mana-free heealing being accomplished by moves and combinations of moves using their DPS in melee. Bloodmages accomplish healing most efficiently by drain transfering, i.e. nukes that deduct health from their offensive target and shift it to their defensive target etc etc.
Although my Shaman (with my pet out) still seems to heal most efficiently from the back row. The difference is that I also nuke from there. Am i missing something?
Originally posted by danbala Although my Shaman (with my pet out) still seems to heal most efficiently from the back row. The difference is that I also nuke from there. Am i missing something?
Well, depending on which spirit you went with to some extent, you're missing out on your melee damage, and the effects from some of your specials, like the str/con debuff.
I have been playing a druid since release of Wow (Lvl 70). Large parts of that time have been spent on healing. Mostly endgame healing.
5. In Wow Warlocks can hand out soulstones. All healers can res. Shamans can self res, and druids can combat res. And engineers have a chance to res people. So in raids you won't be corpse running, also corpse runs are quite rare in most 5 man grps. Because you will in most cases have a class setup that allows for ressing after a wipe. For me this mostly about uniqueness of each class. Being a special class really makes you special. Class choice really does matter. So I kinda see it as a drawback in Vanguard, it doesn't really matter what healer you take, just as long as it is a healer. In Wow the difference between a priest, druid, shaman and paladin does mean something. Something I like better.
4. This is nice. But you can't really compare it, since the two games have a rather different approach to itemization.
3. You can heal on the move with many of the HoT's you find in Wow too. And in many of the boss fights moving is a part of the tactics. Or moving, stop heal, move and similar tactics.
2. This is entirely up to how the game is setup. Again Wow goes for the "unique class" approach here. If you want to dps with a healer class you need to put points into the "dps talent tree" of that class. This again means that you will have to make a choice. Something a personally like better. Something that can make you something different than the other priest standing next to you etc.
1. Again, the word unique. All healing classes in Wow can do dmg too, they just can't do it and heal at the same time. Although it happens too, I have been tanking 1 boss, while healing on the next boss with my druid.
Wow has fewer but unique classes. Vanguard has more but not so unique classes. This shows itself in all parts of the 2 games. And you can't really compare them because of that. In Vanguard a healer can heal no matter what. In Wow a healer can heal when specced and with gear as a healer. In the end it boils down to personal preference.
Oh come on. If you were a druid and the only healer in a 5 man you hated it when people died.
Only preists of a certain spec did any damage to speak of.
Who cares if WoW goes for the Unique class approach. It should be Obvious that Blood mage is significantly different than Cleric. For more than the generic healing of WoW. Oh druid get 2 HoTs and a direct heal while priest gets 2 direct heals and a HoT. Whoopy how unique.
I am sorry but this is just silly. I am by no means a vanboi, but you are not only stretching it for WoW you are simply ignoring what exists in Vanguard and not comparing.
I have been playing a druid since release of Wow (Lvl 70). Large parts of that time have been spent on healing. Mostly endgame healing.
5. In Wow Warlocks can hand out soulstones. All healers can res. Shamans can self res, and druids can combat res. And engineers have a chance to res people. So in raids you won't be corpse running, also corpse runs are quite rare in most 5 man grps. Because you will in most cases have a class setup that allows for ressing after a wipe. For me this mostly about uniqueness of each class. Being a special class really makes you special. Class choice really does matter. So I kinda see it as a drawback in Vanguard, it doesn't really matter what healer you take, just as long as it is a healer. In Wow the difference between a priest, druid, shaman and paladin does mean something. Something I like better.
4. This is nice. But you can't really compare it, since the two games have a rather different approach to itemization.
3. You can heal on the move with many of the HoT's you find in Wow too. And in many of the boss fights moving is a part of the tactics. Or moving, stop heal, move and similar tactics.
2. This is entirely up to how the game is setup. Again Wow goes for the "unique class" approach here. If you want to dps with a healer class you need to put points into the "dps talent tree" of that class. This again means that you will have to make a choice. Something a personally like better. Something that can make you something different than the other priest standing next to you etc.
1. Again, the word unique. All healing classes in Wow can do dmg too, they just can't do it and heal at the same time. Although it happens too, I have been tanking 1 boss, while healing on the next boss with my druid.
Wow has fewer but unique classes. Vanguard has more but not so unique classes. This shows itself in all parts of the 2 games. And you can't really compare them because of that. In Vanguard a healer can heal no matter what. In Wow a healer can heal when specced and with gear as a healer. In the end it boils down to personal preference.
5. The strange thing about WoW is that as a Druid you rarely can be the party's sole healer because you can't rez often enough. I played a druid too and it doesn't surprise me that you needed to have another rezzer around. is that a strength of being a druid in WoW/ Not from my perspective. They denied WoW druids rezzes to keep them unique and may them suboptimal as a result.
4. The itemization is very easy to compare and is not all that different. The only real difference is that Van has more flexibility.
3. ??? Yes, instant cast heals can be cast on the move -- no, thats not at all the same thing. Try Van and you'll see what I mean.
2. The Van classes are no less "unique" as between each other. If you think a Blood mage plays anything like, say, a Shaman, you need to look again. Again, try Van and you'll see how similar the WoW healing classes are to each other.
1. All I can say to this is you seem to be arguing from a niave position with regard to Van. Van might be inferior to WoW in some areas but uniqueness of class play is not it. Trust me on this one.
Originally posted by Delanor You mean nerf them healers? Perhaps they will. Because healers, at least the disciple, has feign death like a monk. On the other hand it makes them really useful in a group and groups will take more risks because of this which increases the dynamics of the game away from the holy trinity static gameplay. That Vanguard is more difficult than other MMO's is not true. Leveling is just slower, giving you time to experience more of the game before reaching level cap. So perhaps less suited for players who are in a hurry to get "there". Now "there" in WoW was a dead end, and it will be in Vanguard too, I guess, so I am in no hurry to get "there" nor am I tempted to return to any other MMO I have finished in the past, but that is a matter of taste and game playing style. Others might enjoy what is called the "end game" for months or even years. Not my cup of tea though.
Shuush ... you've just about convinced me to try this game. Stoppit!
Originally posted by gestalt11Oh come on. If you were a druid and the only healer in a 5 man you hated it when people died.
Only preists of a certain spec did any damage to speak of.
Who cares if WoW goes for the Unique class approach. It should be Obvious that Blood mage is significantly different than Cleric. For more than the generic healing of WoW. Oh druid get 2 HoTs and a direct heal while priest gets 2 direct heals and a HoT. Whoopy how unique.
Come on. Druid as a main healer in a 5 man grp isn't a problem at all. Wipes in 5 man dungeons are extremely rare, and 1 res per hours does fine there.
What is the difference between one Blood mage in Vanguard and the other Blood mage? In Wow the difference between a balance druid, a feral druid and a restoration druid are big. Even if it is the same class. Shadow priest and holy priest are also 2 very different things. It's something that can set you apart from the other people playing the same class, hence something unique. And it requires you to make choices.
In Wow it's also a difference what healer you take. While in Vanguard basically all healers can heal. No idea how this will turn out in the endgame, but so far after what I have experienced, a healer is a healer.
Originally posted by danbala
5. The strange thing about WoW is that as a Druid you rarely can be the party's sole healer because you can't rez often enough. I played a druid too and it doesn't surprise me that you needed to have another rezzer around. is that a strength of being a druid in WoW/ Not from my perspective. They denied WoW druids rezzes to keep them unique and may them suboptimal as a result. 4. The itemization is very easy to compare and is not all that different. The only real difference is that Van has more flexibility. 3. ??? Yes, instant cast heals can be cast on the move -- no, thats not at all the same thing. Try Van and you'll see what I mean. 2. The Van classes are no less "unique" as between each other. If you think a Blood mage plays anything like, say, a Shaman, you need to look again. Again, try Van and you'll see how similar the WoW healing classes are to each other. 1. All I can say to this is you seem to be arguing from a niave position with regard to Van. Van might be inferior to WoW in some areas but uniqueness of class play is not it. Trust me on this one.
5. The druid is one of the most powerful classes in Wow. Sadly the feral tree is nerfed next patch, but that is ot. A druid can easily be the main healer in a party. They have the most powerful hot's in the game, and are insanly effective pvp healers. And personally have almost never had trouble with only having one and a half resses in a instance. *Engineering*
4. Wow itemization is mostly based around the set items dropping in instances. Crafting is in most cases not valuable, since most set items are much better. And items are class locked and bind on pickup. In this department Vanguard beats Wow by miles, since it's alot more freeform, crafting means something and so on.
Come on. Druid as a main healer in a 5 man grp isn't a problem at all. Wipes in 5 man dungeons are extremely rare, and 1 res per hours does fine there.
What is the difference between one Blood mage in Vanguard and the other Blood mage? In Wow the difference between a balance druid, a feral druid and a restoration druid are big. Even if it is the same class. Shadow priest and holy priest are also 2 very different things. It's something that can set you apart from the other people playing the same class, hence something unique. And it requires you to make choices.
In Wow it's also a difference what healer you take. While in Vanguard basically all healers can heal. No idea how this will turn out in the endgame, but so far after what I have experienced, a healer is a healer.
5. The druid is one of the most powerful classes in Wow. Sadly the feral tree is nerfed next patch, but that is ot. A druid can easily be the main healer in a party. They have the most powerful hot's in the game, and are insanly effective pvp healers. And personally have almost never had trouble with only having one and a half resses in a instance. *Engineering*
4. Wow itemization is mostly based around the set items dropping in instances. Crafting is in most cases not valuable, since most set items are much better. And items are class locked and bind on pickup. In this department Vanguard beats Wow by miles, since it's alot more freeform, crafting means something and so on.
Having a level 60+ Druid, I agree that Druids can heal fine. The problem with them main healing is that they can't rez. That fact alone makes them always hobbled as a groups only healer.
You seem to be using the cusomization in WoW as a strong point? I would agree if the point of the game were to be more different than other people of your same class. But, that is not the point of the game is it? The point of the game as defined by Blizzard is to complete content of the 5, 10, 25 man variety. Of course our guild does not allow druids so I am not TOO familiar with them... but the issue of cusomization in WoW is a point AGAINST it in my mind.
Sure 5 man's are easy, but they are not considered End-game really... if you want into the end-game stuff you HAVE to have a certain mix of certain classes of Certain specs. Then you need certain gear on those certain people... and then you can start doing your 10 and 25-man encounters.
Perhaps VG will be the same way, but at least from what I saw in the first 20 levels (that I got from the 10-day free trial... no this game does not take a long time to level in if you have any past MMO experience) is that the Healing experience here is vastly different from WoW or ... well any other MMO I have been in. I see it as an in-between to WAR, where your healing classes will all HAVE to melee in order to gain the ability to heal. Also, the ability for my cleric to step up and be an off-tank, or even main-tank in some instances gives my group flexibility.
There is nothing worse than having 14 people sitting around not being able to run anything because the right 1-2 people are not online. Flexibility in end-game content is the way of the future.
3. You can heal on the move. That’s right healing no longer means standing in one place – usually in the back. You can now be involved in the party’s tactics by moving along with the party while you are healing. This can become very important during those fast getaways.
Question : All healing spells can be used on the move ? & how many types of healing spells does each healer type have ?
ALL spells in the game can be cast while moving, some will let you keep running, some will make you walk, none of them will "Interrupt".
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by gestalt11Oh come on. If you were a druid and the only healer in a 5 man you hated it when people died.
Only preists of a certain spec did any damage to speak of.
Who cares if WoW goes for the Unique class approach. It should be Obvious that Blood mage is significantly different than Cleric. For more than the generic healing of WoW. Oh druid get 2 HoTs and a direct heal while priest gets 2 direct heals and a HoT. Whoopy how unique.
Come on. Druid as a main healer in a 5 man grp isn't a problem at all. Wipes in 5 man dungeons are extremely rare, and 1 res per hours does fine there.
What is the difference between one Blood mage in Vanguard and the other Blood mage? In Wow the difference between a balance druid, a feral druid and a restoration druid are big. Even if it is the same class. Shadow priest and holy priest are also 2 very different things. It's something that can set you apart from the other people playing the same class, hence something unique. And it requires you to make choices.
In Wow it's also a difference what healer you take. While in Vanguard basically all healers can heal. No idea how this will turn out in the endgame, but so far after what I have experienced, a healer is a healer.
Originally posted by danbala
5. The strange thing about WoW is that as a Druid you rarely can be the party's sole healer because you can't rez often enough. I played a druid too and it doesn't surprise me that you needed to have another rezzer around. is that a strength of being a druid in WoW/ Not from my perspective. They denied WoW druids rezzes to keep them unique and may them suboptimal as a result. 4. The itemization is very easy to compare and is not all that different. The only real difference is that Van has more flexibility. 3. ??? Yes, instant cast heals can be cast on the move -- no, thats not at all the same thing. Try Van and you'll see what I mean. 2. The Van classes are no less "unique" as between each other. If you think a Blood mage plays anything like, say, a Shaman, you need to look again. Again, try Van and you'll see how similar the WoW healing classes are to each other. 1. All I can say to this is you seem to be arguing from a niave position with regard to Van. Van might be inferior to WoW in some areas but uniqueness of class play is not it. Trust me on this one.
5. The druid is one of the most powerful classes in Wow. Sadly the feral tree is nerfed next patch, but that is ot. A druid can easily be the main healer in a party. They have the most powerful hot's in the game, and are insanly effective pvp healers. And personally have almost never had trouble with only having one and a half resses in a instance. *Engineering*
4. Wow itemization is mostly based around the set items dropping in instances. Crafting is in most cases not valuable, since most set items are much better. And items are class locked and bind on pickup. In this department Vanguard beats Wow by miles, since it's alot more freeform, crafting means something and so on. BS, dude, I played a Feral Druid to max AV rep. I main healed an entire 5 man LBRS run in nothing but crafted gear with 0 points in Resto. Other than nature's swiftness there is absolutely no difference in how a feral heals versus a resto druid besides possible bonus crit heal and maybe about 10% extra on the numbers. With TBC you have that feral crit/heal aura. But that doesn't come into effect when you are main healing since your are not in a form. You have that tree form now and the ability for a resto to turn a Hot into a direct heal. So what, its still just a direct heal or a HoT.
Whether wipes are rare or not if you don't have a back up rezzer as a druid you get reeeeeeeeal nervous.
Yes druids are prefectly fine main healers, even feral ones, well maybe not on the level 70 heroics not sure on that one. But they are not that different than a priest and the difference in healing style between a feral and a priest is miniscule. The major heals of all 4 healing clases are very similar. Druid has Healing Touch (direct heal), Rejuvination (HoT), and REgrowth (half HoT half direct). Preist has Flash heal (direct), greater heal(direct), and its HoT. Wow really different. They added in the Resto druid turn a Hot into a direct and they copied EQ2 and added in that reactive heal for priests.
Blood Mage healing mechanics work different than cleric healing mechanics in vanguard. Its not just a matter of ditribution of 1 or 2 HoT versus 1 or 2 direct heals. Ican't tell you all the specifics of the Vanguard classes, but I am sure there are many fans here who can go feature by feature. But just the blood sacrifice part of the Blood Mage is enough for me to know it differs enough to be more than what WoW has.
Look even EQ2 has more variation and types of healing, far more frankly. Just the reactive healing class alone makes EQ2 richer. There isn't even a question. WoW healing is extremely one-dimensional. Frankly its quite boring.
I totally agree with the OP. I have a level 60+ WoW priest and a Shammy in VG right now. I love the Shammy in VG so much better. I can actually beat up on a mob while healing full bore. My whacks on the mob take no mana...love it. A lot of fun!
The problem isn't one game versus another on this issue. It's the players.
Lots of games have tried to make healing more interesting and fun. You brought up WoW, so let's take that one. You can make a shadow priest and do a ton of damage. You can be a druid and have 3 forms. You can be a shammy and they have lots of cool stuff. You can be a pally. There are 4 classes that can heal, all very different.
And yet, in the end, no matter which class you play, in WoW as in all games, when you get to high end content your group or raid is going to want you to stand in the back, stfu and heal, if you are the group's intended healer.
Sure, on the way up the level ladder you can do other things, but in the end player pressure will be brought to bear in Vanguard, as it has in all its predecessors.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The problem isn't one game versus another on this issue. It's the players. Lots of games have tried to make healing more interesting and fun. You brought up WoW, so let's take that one. You can make a shadow priest and do a ton of damage. You can be a druid and have 3 forms. You can be a shammy and they have lots of cool stuff. You can be a pally. There are 4 classes that can heal, all very different. And yet, in the end, no matter which class you play, in WoW as in all games, when you get to high end content your group or raid is going to want you to stand in the back, stfu and heal, if you are the group's intended healer. Sure, on the way up the level ladder you can do other things, but in the end player pressure will be brought to bear in Vanguard, as it has in all its predecessors.
The problem isn't one game versus another on this issue. It's the players. Lots of games have tried to make healing more interesting and fun. You brought up WoW, so let's take that one. You can make a shadow priest and do a ton of damage. You can be a druid and have 3 forms. You can be a shammy and they have lots of cool stuff. You can be a pally. There are 4 classes that can heal, all very different. And yet, in the end, no matter which class you play, in WoW as in all games, when you get to high end content your group or raid is going to want you to stand in the back, stfu and heal, if you are the group's intended healer. Sure, on the way up the level ladder you can do other things, but in the end player pressure will be brought to bear in Vanguard, as it has in all its predecessors.
Well said. Clearly you haven't really played VG much, but I'll give an example.
As a disciple, you can go stand at the back of the group, throw 8-12heals, go OOM and then your group can die.
Alternatively you can stay at the front line, use your melee generated heals/hots/buffs only use mana heals for crises/spikes and your group won't die.
Eh it sounds kinda easy, ill probably try this game but i dont think im going to like a game where, as someone mentioned before, the most played class is cleric. Oo more priests then hunters. There is alot of difference between priest-pally vs druid-shammy heal. priests and pallys focus on duration of healing they have to keep their mana reserves up the whole fight in raids druid-shammy are speed healers they save tanks when the tanks get crited on by bosses, and they heal other healers and dpsers, 5 man or 10 man healing is very different from raid healing in my opinion.
But in the end healing in WoW is pretty boring after awhile. im still playing but its taking a looonngg time for my server to open the 25 man raids. and doing the 5man instances is getting real boring.
Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by Coldmeat
Originally posted by gestalt11 If you had said it was more fun than a GW monk I would have been impressed. WoW not so much. I played a Druid to 60 so I'm not just shooting my mouth off. I wish more games would take a note from CoX and not require healers.
WAR. And since when did CoX not require Healers? Or did I somehow mistake Defenders for healer/buffers when in fact, they are actually tanks. Or Masterminds on the villian side of things. I'm pretty sure the group invites I got every 3 seconds weren't because they thought my pets would make a super keen addition to the party.
And for the person that said the healer classes has been done in EQ2, and EQ1. No. Just no. Cleric, and Shaman, sure, but then, they were being done since the 80's and D&D. And D&D just stole the idea from their real life counterparts, Clerics and Shaman, just with the added twist that their "powers" actually worked. Guess you'll all be heading to Gary Gygax's house to let him know what an unoriginal POS he is. But Disciples, and especially Blood Mages are pretty new. I don't recall any classes like them in EQ. Maybe some MUD somewhere, maybe. I suppose you could find a Disciple like class in one of those god awful asian martial arts MMOs. If you look hard and long enough, I imagine you could tear down everything in any game if you were so inclined.
Well go to the Defender forum and call them healers and see what happens . It won't be pretty.
Defenders are tanks. I can tank with mine. And 8 defender teams work real well.
Besides any class can heal in CoX just take Aid Other. A Storm Defender can't heal any better than some scrapper with Aid Other.
Is that so? Which archetype, when in a full group of 8 of the same archetype, wont work "real well"?
Defenders are not tanks. They may be able to "stay alive", but they sure as hell can't keep aggro compared to an actual tank.
2.You can DPS without compromising your healing. The encounters seem to be tuned so that you don’t need to spend you entire time healing. In fact, I spend more time DPSing with my Blood Mage and Disciple than I do actually healing -- even though I’m the only healer for my party. As a result healing has become an add-on to my other roles in the group, not my sole focus. Although, I do full-time heal in tough boss encounters most of the time I can focus on taking the fight to the enemy. And with the Blood Mage and Disciple I actually need to do DPS to be most effective at healing. That means that my party can’t even complain about it. And since I can move and heal, I can actually be good at both roles.
And the Number One reason why healing is better in Vanguard:
1. All Healing classes are hybrids. You read that right, they are all designed to excel at healing and something else. The Blood Mage is like a healing Mage; the Disciple is a hand-to-hand DPSer, the Cleric is basically a WoW paladin and the Shaman is, well, a Shaman. No more arguments about why the dedicated healer class should heal the best. There is no “dedicated” class. And Sigil has ensured that they all heal equally well when they are only healing because they all have access to the same healing spells (more or less) at the same levels. What makes the classes distict is either how they also accomplish their secondary role.
the above two reasons are what broguht me back to VG for a 2nd try and what is making me start loving this game. I play a shaman and I love to melee! Yet My healing is in no way compromised. And the Hybrid part is spot on. I love the fact that we can all do a decent job at healing. True, EQ2 did alot to revolutionize the healer character and make it more broadbased and inclusive of all types, so I will give credit where it is due.
2.You can DPS without compromising your healing. The encounters seem to be tuned so that you don’t need to spend you entire time healing. In fact, I spend more time DPSing with my Blood Mage and Disciple than I do actually healing -- even though I’m the only healer for my party. As a result healing has become an add-on to my other roles in the group, not my sole focus. Although, I do full-time heal in tough boss encounters most of the time I can focus on taking the fight to the enemy. And with the Blood Mage and Disciple I actually need to do DPS to be most effective at healing. That means that my party can’t even complain about it. And since I can move and heal, I can actually be good at both roles.
And the Number One reason why healing is better in Vanguard:
1. All Healing classes are hybrids. You read that right, they are all designed to excel at healing and something else. The Blood Mage is like a healing Mage; the Disciple is a hand-to-hand DPSer, the Cleric is basically a WoW paladin and the Shaman is, well, a Shaman. No more arguments about why the dedicated healer class should heal the best. There is no “dedicated” class. And Sigil has ensured that they all heal equally well when they are only healing because they all have access to the same healing spells (more or less) at the same levels. What makes the classes distict is either how they also accomplish their secondary role.
the above two reasons are what broguht me back to VG for a 2nd try and what is making me start loving this game. I play a shaman and I love to melee! Yet My healing is in no way compromised. And the Hybrid part is spot on. I love the fact that we can all do a decent job at healing. True, EQ2 did alot to revolutionize the healer character and make it more broadbased and inclusive of all types, so I will give credit where it is due.
Glad to hear it. They have improved the game a lot from week to week -- but that might be damniing from faint praise considering the state the game was released in.
The problem isn't one game versus another on this issue. It's the players. Lots of games have tried to make healing more interesting and fun. You brought up WoW, so let's take that one. You can make a shadow priest and do a ton of damage. You can be a druid and have 3 forms. You can be a shammy and they have lots of cool stuff. You can be a pally. There are 4 classes that can heal, all very different. And yet, in the end, no matter which class you play, in WoW as in all games, when you get to high end content your group or raid is going to want you to stand in the back, stfu and heal, if you are the group's intended healer. Sure, on the way up the level ladder you can do other things, but in the end player pressure will be brought to bear in Vanguard, as it has in all its predecessors.
Well said.Clearly you haven't really played VG much, but I'll give an example.
As a disciple, you can go stand at the back of the group, throw 8-12heals, go OOM and then your group can die.
Alternatively you can stay at the front line, use your melee generated heals/hots/buffs only use mana heals for crises/spikes and your group won't die.
Next please.
What level are you in Vanguard as a healer? Are you at end game content? I doubt it. But if it's your position that the Vanguard healing experience will be different there then all the other games that came before, otay.
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Give me WoW any day to VG carebear healers.
You mean nerf them healers? Perhaps they will. Because healers, at least the disciple, has feign death like a monk. On the other hand it makes them really useful in a group and groups will take more risks because of this which increases the dynamics of the game away from the holy trinity static gameplay.
That Vanguard is more difficult than other MMO's is not true. Leveling is just slower, giving you time to experience more of the game before reaching level cap. So perhaps less suited for players who are in a hurry to get "there".
Now "there" in WoW was a dead end, and it will be in Vanguard too, I guess, so I am in no hurry to get "there" nor am I tempted to return to any other MMO I have finished in the past, but that is a matter of taste and game playing style. Others might enjoy what is called the "end game" for months or even years. Not my cup of tea though.
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Delanor
You can move and cast spells, you just move slower.
This is something I wish ALL mmo's did. I always play a caster and I can't stand being stationary when I cast spells; I like to move around. In my opinion this is one of the things that makes playing a caster in VG better then WoW. I know a lock can be pretty mobile in WoW, but still stuck standing in place at some point.
Silly but little things like that make a dif.
Melee classses are a dif. story in VG though, but then Lineage2 and EQ2 are the only MMO's I've played that I liked the way the melee classes are done; not even WoW's are fun, IMO.
I agree, moving while casting was one of the few things I liked about VSoH
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs
Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW
Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
5. In Wow Warlocks can hand out soulstones. All healers can res. Shamans can self res, and druids can combat res. And engineers have a chance to res people. So in raids you won't be corpse running, also corpse runs are quite rare in most 5 man grps. Because you will in most cases have a class setup that allows for ressing after a wipe. For me this mostly about uniqueness of each class. Being a special class really makes you special. Class choice really does matter. So I kinda see it as a drawback in Vanguard, it doesn't really matter what healer you take, just as long as it is a healer. In Wow the difference between a priest, druid, shaman and paladin does mean something. Something I like better.
4. This is nice. But you can't really compare it, since the two games have a rather different approach to itemization.
3. You can heal on the move with many of the HoT's you find in Wow too. And in many of the boss fights moving is a part of the tactics. Or moving, stop heal, move and similar tactics.
2. This is entirely up to how the game is setup. Again Wow goes for the "unique class" approach here. If you want to dps with a healer class you need to put points into the "dps talent tree" of that class. This again means that you will have to make a choice. Something a personally like better. Something that can make you something different than the other priest standing next to you etc.
1. Again, the word unique. All healing classes in Wow can do dmg too, they just can't do it and heal at the same time. Although it happens too, I have been tanking 1 boss, while healing on the next boss with my druid.
Wow has fewer but unique classes. Vanguard has more but not so unique classes. This shows itself in all parts of the 2 games. And you can't really compare them because of that. In Vanguard a healer can heal no matter what. In Wow a healer can heal when specced and with gear as a healer. In the end it boils down to personal preference.
1. Yes. Yes. Tanks have "rescues" that can be triggered when their defensive target gets aggro. These rescuse do different things depending on the nature of the tank. For example, a paladins rescue gets aggro and heals the defensive target.
2. Yes -- eneregy
3. Yes and no. Your healing effectiveness is spread out over three attributes. You can also get +healing gear. (You can make any kind of armor have some benefit to healing through the crafting system).
Clerics regain mana by hitting mobs, yes you read that right, using a special melee attack is part of how they manage mana, they also proc healing and numerous group wide buffs by using melee, standing at he back and doing very little is far less efficient. Disciples are even more melee focused, with numerous buffs and all their mana-free heealing being accomplished by moves and combinations of moves using their DPS in melee. Bloodmages accomplish healing most efficiently by drain transfering, i.e. nukes that deduct health from their offensive target and shift it to their defensive target etc etc.
Although my Shaman (with my pet out) still seems to heal most efficiently from the back row. The difference is that I also nuke from there. Am i missing something?
Well, depending on which spirit you went with to some extent, you're missing out on your melee damage, and the effects from some of your specials, like the str/con debuff.
Only preists of a certain spec did any damage to speak of.
Who cares if WoW goes for the Unique class approach. It should be Obvious that Blood mage is significantly different than Cleric. For more than the generic healing of WoW. Oh druid get 2 HoTs and a direct heal while priest gets 2 direct heals and a HoT. Whoopy how unique.
I am sorry but this is just silly. I am by no means a vanboi, but you are not only stretching it for WoW you are simply ignoring what exists in Vanguard and not comparing.
5. The strange thing about WoW is that as a Druid you rarely can be the party's sole healer because you can't rez often enough. I played a druid too and it doesn't surprise me that you needed to have another rezzer around. is that a strength of being a druid in WoW/ Not from my perspective. They denied WoW druids rezzes to keep them unique and may them suboptimal as a result.
4. The itemization is very easy to compare and is not all that different. The only real difference is that Van has more flexibility.
3. ??? Yes, instant cast heals can be cast on the move -- no, thats not at all the same thing. Try Van and you'll see what I mean.
2. The Van classes are no less "unique" as between each other. If you think a Blood mage plays anything like, say, a Shaman, you need to look again. Again, try Van and you'll see how similar the WoW healing classes are to each other.
1. All I can say to this is you seem to be arguing from a niave position with regard to Van. Van might be inferior to WoW in some areas but uniqueness of class play is not it. Trust me on this one.
Shuush ... you've just about convinced me to try this game. Stoppit!
What is the difference between one Blood mage in Vanguard and the other Blood mage? In Wow the difference between a balance druid, a feral druid and a restoration druid are big. Even if it is the same class. Shadow priest and holy priest are also 2 very different things. It's something that can set you apart from the other people playing the same class, hence something unique. And it requires you to make choices.
In Wow it's also a difference what healer you take. While in Vanguard basically all healers can heal. No idea how this will turn out in the endgame, but so far after what I have experienced, a healer is a healer.
5. The druid is one of the most powerful classes in Wow. Sadly the feral tree is nerfed next patch, but that is ot. A druid can easily be the main healer in a party. They have the most powerful hot's in the game, and are insanly effective pvp healers. And personally have almost never had trouble with only having one and a half resses in a instance. *Engineering*
4. Wow itemization is mostly based around the set items dropping in instances. Crafting is in most cases not valuable, since most set items are much better. And items are class locked and bind on pickup. In this department Vanguard beats Wow by miles, since it's alot more freeform, crafting means something and so on.
What is the difference between one Blood mage in Vanguard and the other Blood mage? In Wow the difference between a balance druid, a feral druid and a restoration druid are big. Even if it is the same class. Shadow priest and holy priest are also 2 very different things. It's something that can set you apart from the other people playing the same class, hence something unique. And it requires you to make choices.
In Wow it's also a difference what healer you take. While in Vanguard basically all healers can heal. No idea how this will turn out in the endgame, but so far after what I have experienced, a healer is a healer.
5. The druid is one of the most powerful classes in Wow. Sadly the feral tree is nerfed next patch, but that is ot. A druid can easily be the main healer in a party. They have the most powerful hot's in the game, and are insanly effective pvp healers. And personally have almost never had trouble with only having one and a half resses in a instance. *Engineering*
4. Wow itemization is mostly based around the set items dropping in instances. Crafting is in most cases not valuable, since most set items are much better. And items are class locked and bind on pickup. In this department Vanguard beats Wow by miles, since it's alot more freeform, crafting means something and so on.
Having a level 60+ Druid, I agree that Druids can heal fine. The problem with them main healing is that they can't rez. That fact alone makes them always hobbled as a groups only healer.
You seem to be using the cusomization in WoW as a strong point? I would agree if the point of the game were to be more different than other people of your same class. But, that is not the point of the game is it? The point of the game as defined by Blizzard is to complete content of the 5, 10, 25 man variety. Of course our guild does not allow druids so I am not TOO familiar with them... but the issue of cusomization in WoW is a point AGAINST it in my mind.
Sure 5 man's are easy, but they are not considered End-game really... if you want into the end-game stuff you HAVE to have a certain mix of certain classes of Certain specs. Then you need certain gear on those certain people... and then you can start doing your 10 and 25-man encounters.
Perhaps VG will be the same way, but at least from what I saw in the first 20 levels (that I got from the 10-day free trial... no this game does not take a long time to level in if you have any past MMO experience) is that the Healing experience here is vastly different from WoW or ... well any other MMO I have been in. I see it as an in-between to WAR, where your healing classes will all HAVE to melee in order to gain the ability to heal. Also, the ability for my cleric to step up and be an off-tank, or even main-tank in some instances gives my group flexibility.
There is nothing worse than having 14 people sitting around not being able to run anything because the right 1-2 people are not online. Flexibility in end-game content is the way of the future.
ALL spells in the game can be cast while moving, some will let you keep running, some will make you walk, none of them will "Interrupt".
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What is the difference between one Blood mage in Vanguard and the other Blood mage? In Wow the difference between a balance druid, a feral druid and a restoration druid are big. Even if it is the same class. Shadow priest and holy priest are also 2 very different things. It's something that can set you apart from the other people playing the same class, hence something unique. And it requires you to make choices.
In Wow it's also a difference what healer you take. While in Vanguard basically all healers can heal. No idea how this will turn out in the endgame, but so far after what I have experienced, a healer is a healer.
5. The druid is one of the most powerful classes in Wow. Sadly the feral tree is nerfed next patch, but that is ot. A druid can easily be the main healer in a party. They have the most powerful hot's in the game, and are insanly effective pvp healers. And personally have almost never had trouble with only having one and a half resses in a instance. *Engineering*
4. Wow itemization is mostly based around the set items dropping in instances. Crafting is in most cases not valuable, since most set items are much better. And items are class locked and bind on pickup. In this department Vanguard beats Wow by miles, since it's alot more freeform, crafting means something and so on. BS, dude, I played a Feral Druid to max AV rep. I main healed an entire 5 man LBRS run in nothing but crafted gear with 0 points in Resto. Other than nature's swiftness there is absolutely no difference in how a feral heals versus a resto druid besides possible bonus crit heal and maybe about 10% extra on the numbers. With TBC you have that feral crit/heal aura. But that doesn't come into effect when you are main healing since your are not in a form. You have that tree form now and the ability for a resto to turn a Hot into a direct heal. So what, its still just a direct heal or a HoT.
Whether wipes are rare or not if you don't have a back up rezzer as a druid you get reeeeeeeeal nervous.
Yes druids are prefectly fine main healers, even feral ones, well maybe not on the level 70 heroics not sure on that one. But they are not that different than a priest and the difference in healing style between a feral and a priest is miniscule. The major heals of all 4 healing clases are very similar. Druid has Healing Touch (direct heal), Rejuvination (HoT), and REgrowth (half HoT half direct). Preist has Flash heal (direct), greater heal(direct), and its HoT. Wow really different. They added in the Resto druid turn a Hot into a direct and they copied EQ2 and added in that reactive heal for priests.
Blood Mage healing mechanics work different than cleric healing mechanics in vanguard. Its not just a matter of ditribution of 1 or 2 HoT versus 1 or 2 direct heals. Ican't tell you all the specifics of the Vanguard classes, but I am sure there are many fans here who can go feature by feature. But just the blood sacrifice part of the Blood Mage is enough for me to know it differs enough to be more than what WoW has.
Look even EQ2 has more variation and types of healing, far more frankly. Just the reactive healing class alone makes EQ2 richer. There isn't even a question. WoW healing is extremely one-dimensional. Frankly its quite boring.
The problem isn't one game versus another on this issue. It's the players.
Lots of games have tried to make healing more interesting and fun. You brought up WoW, so let's take that one. You can make a shadow priest and do a ton of damage. You can be a druid and have 3 forms. You can be a shammy and they have lots of cool stuff. You can be a pally. There are 4 classes that can heal, all very different.
And yet, in the end, no matter which class you play, in WoW as in all games, when you get to high end content your group or raid is going to want you to stand in the back, stfu and heal, if you are the group's intended healer.
Sure, on the way up the level ladder you can do other things, but in the end player pressure will be brought to bear in Vanguard, as it has in all its predecessors.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
As a disciple, you can go stand at the back of the group, throw 8-12heals, go OOM and then your group can die.
Alternatively you can stay at the front line, use your melee generated heals/hots/buffs only use mana heals for crises/spikes and your group won't die.
Next please.
Eh it sounds kinda easy, ill probably try this game but i dont think im going to like a game where, as someone mentioned before, the most played class is cleric. Oo more priests then hunters. There is alot of difference between priest-pally vs druid-shammy heal. priests and pallys focus on duration of healing they have to keep their mana reserves up the whole fight in raids druid-shammy are speed healers they save tanks when the tanks get crited on by bosses, and they heal other healers and dpsers, 5 man or 10 man healing is very different from raid healing in my opinion.
But in the end healing in WoW is pretty boring after awhile. im still playing but its taking a looonngg time for my server to open the 25 man raids. and doing the 5man instances is getting real boring.
And for the person that said the healer classes has been done in EQ2, and EQ1. No. Just no. Cleric, and Shaman, sure, but then, they were being done since the 80's and D&D. And D&D just stole the idea from their real life counterparts, Clerics and Shaman, just with the added twist that their "powers" actually worked. Guess you'll all be heading to Gary Gygax's house to let him know what an unoriginal POS he is.
But Disciples, and especially Blood Mages are pretty new. I don't recall any classes like them in EQ. Maybe some MUD somewhere, maybe. I suppose you could find a Disciple like class in one of those god awful asian martial arts MMOs. If you look hard and long enough, I imagine you could tear down everything in any game if you were so inclined.
Well go to the Defender forum and call them healers and see what happens
Defenders are tanks. I can tank with mine. And 8 defender teams work real well.
Besides any class can heal in CoX just take Aid Other. A Storm Defender can't heal any better than some scrapper with Aid Other.
Is that so? Which archetype, when in a full group of 8 of the same archetype, wont work "real well"?
Defenders are not tanks. They may be able to "stay alive", but they sure as hell can't keep aggro compared to an actual tank.
Sorry for the off topic.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Glad to hear it. They have improved the game a lot from week to week -- but that might be damniing from faint praise considering the state the game was released in.
As a disciple, you can go stand at the back of the group, throw 8-12heals, go OOM and then your group can die.
Alternatively you can stay at the front line, use your melee generated heals/hots/buffs only use mana heals for crises/spikes and your group won't die.
Next please.
What level are you in Vanguard as a healer? Are you at end game content? I doubt it. But if it's your position that the Vanguard healing experience will be different there then all the other games that came before, otay.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests