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What in the world is wrong with MMORPG companies?
SomebodyOverThere
Member Posts: 44
I have been reading mmorpg.com news and forums for a while and I have had a lot of opinions on many things as most others here do. Until now, I haven't been compelled to post anything because normally all the major opinions are covered countless times and most of the time the conversations' participants are not interested in the truth and progression of ideas but rather simply "winning", which reduce the conversations into stupidity. However, I cannot resist the the need to ask the question WHAT IN THE WORLD IS WRONG WITH MMORPG COMPANIES? There is no way in the world that non-established companies can create successful copycat, run-of-the-mill, coookie cutter MMORPGs anymore. It is now more costly than ever to create a cookie-cutter MMORPG to compete with what is already out there.
For a non-established and non-mega-funded company, it would be best to do something ORIGINAL and not put yourself directly in competition with the huge companies like Blizzard and Sony. The MMORPG players that are addicted to mindlessly consuming time through constant clicking for no particular reason are unfortunately the largest part of the market now. And Blizzard, SOE, EA, NCSoft, etc... are currently in complete control of that market. They got the money to pour out endless expansion paid expansion packs, content additions, and new graphics to click on. It would take big money to create a copy of one of their games (all EQ clones of different variations, although a few of them are a little more original than others, but not by very much) and be able to successfully break into the market and steal market share LONG-TERM.
So that part of the market is completely off-limits to any sane company that is not mega-funded. That means the smaller companies should go after the other market that is up for grabs. The market that wants open-ended gameplay, a true virtual world, decisions and consequences that determine your fate instead of how often/fast/much you click, heavy player interaction of both cooperation and competition, player control and influence on the world, etc... etc...
Yet what do I see within the last week of reading mmorpg.com? SOE announcing a spy-themed MMORPG and within a week afterwards, two other companies announcing the exact same thing! We all know that there is a 99% chance these MMORPGs are going to be EQ clones (just with James Bond clothing)...but what on earth posseses these companies to all go for the exact same theme? Can't they at the very least, for their own sake if not anyone else's, set their EQ clones in different themes??? When is there ever going to be a company that actually puts their investment money to use and attempts to develop something original...instead of going into a doomed head-on copycat attack on the super-MMORPG corporations?
Sure, I guess the company doesn't care while their developing the game, they will get paychecks from their investors with or without success....up until the game launches and is a complete failure against the game with superior graphics by the big guy. Wouldn't they WANT a successful game to make MORE money instead of just a regular paycheck for a few years?
I just don't understand what is going on in the MMORPG industry. Three games of the exact same theme in one week...geez.
I just had to get that off my chest....I almost posted something when I saw the second spy MMO in a week, but when a 3rd one was announced the very next day...that was too much for me to resist posting something about.
Comments
I think the same rings true for MMO companies. Although World of Warcraft (I won't touch Sony.) is a mega-success, smaller businesses try and capture a bit of the market with similar product.
Also, a lot of smaller companies try to make small adjustments to popular ideas in order to pull a niche crowd away from a popular MMORPG. Every day we see posts on this forum which bash Blizzard and SoE. If those customers are upset with the product they are paying for, a smaller company may persuade them away.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
City of Heros. Although it is not as large as many other MMOs it is a financial success. Community wise the game seems to slowly be going down hill, but the long term fanbase it more than enough to sustain it and be in the black for a long time.
Ryzom was financially successful for a while and it deserved it as it is a very well made game, but it hasn't been a financial success fr quite a while. Those two are the only ones I can think of right now.
Did I miss those games? lol. Besides games that were vaporware from beginning to end and never were funded by any serious investors and never had any real resources to make a successful MMORPG of any kind, I never have seen any MMORPGs attempt to cater to the "other" market. Perhaps Ultima Online was the "beginning" of catering to that other market....but with the massive amount of bugs and problems, and it being one of the very first MMOs, we never had the chance to see if that franchise would ever truly cater to the "other" market. Since then, not one game with any kind of serious combination of significant funding/resources/developers, has attempted to cater to the "other" market...atleast not my knowledge? What other games are you talking about?
EVE Online and Pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies (EVE Online i have only played the trial for a week and I never did play pre-CU SWG, but I have read much of both) seem to be the only games that ever attempted half-way to cater to the "other" market. But the thing is...those two markets don't mix. You can't cater to both in a single game...they are opposing markets whose gameplay-preferences conflict with each other. Both EVE and Pre-CU (and CU even more, and NGE even much more) SWG both attempted to cater to the main market along with the "other" market, so they were unable to dominate either market. EVE I do consider a successful game even though I personally don't like it...but I think a game can be far more successful if it was able to tap into the entire "other" market (instead of just a small piece of it like EVE), just like WoW taps into the entire "main" market. Even SWG, during original planning/development, was planned to cater even more (though still not enough) to the "other" market, but last-minute changes were made and those "last-minute" EQ-clone changes kept on coming, making it worse and worse. But nonetheless, even its original design was always half EQ-clone.
But anyway, like I said, I haven't seen ONE well-funded (I am not talking about huge amounts like the big guys...just a reasonable amount) company EVER attempt to make a game that draws on a COMPLETELY original MMORPG idea that does not cater at all to EQ-type players, but instead fully caters to the "other" market. Any companies that I have seen that have talked about anything significantly original (although I can't even think of one that was totally original right now...but maybe there was and i just forgetting at the moment...tired right now), never had any kind of ability to create any kind of MMORPG successfully...they were a combination of being poorly funded, poorly experienced developers, poorly managed, etc... etc...
BTW as for CoH...yeah they atleast used a brand new theme, but they were still using general EQ gameplay.
Edit:
So basically to sum it up...the large companies are all doing EQ clones for the main market. The medium companies are all doing EQ clones trying to compete with the large ones for the same market. The small companies (composed heavily of amateurs)...some of them are trying to half-way tap into the "other" market...but so far none of them have been able to successfully COMPLETE(and I mean complete, not launch...yeah Dark&Light was launched but it wasn't complete by any standard) any of their games, so of course, none of them have been successful. It is obvious why the large companies don't innovate...innovation costs money and the EQ players are still buying the old stuff with new graphics, and a lot of the "other" market would rather play a EQ clone than no MMORPG at all, so they continue to be subscribers as well...so they have everyone so why bother spending more money to serve their customers when they are already getting their money. And we know why the small companies aren't getting anywhere. But my question is, why isn't there any medium companies, with the capabilities if they plan and manage correctly, attempting to tap into that other big market to create a REALLY successful game (not just so-so)? (yeah it won't be as successful as WoW, but it just might beat out all the other P2P games since it would be tapping into the ENTIRE other market, where as they have to share enourmasly with WoW in the main market)
What's wrong with "mega-funded" companies? Nothing! Having the money to provide expansions, updates, etc. is NOT a bad thing, not at all.
I can somewhat agree with you that there isn't much originality around, but it isn't *that* many EQ2 clones around. And if a company has to choose between a safe product (which they KNOW customers will pay for) or something new and risky, you can't blame them for safing. Risking thousand of jobs on products customers might not want... - well, you get the picture.
If you need "original" MMORPGs: have you checked the game list on this site? There's in fact a lot of games there which are quite different from "established standards", or so to say. But be warned, there is a reason why lots of them get those low scores...
It really ads up to providing what ppl wants, and i can't see anything wrong with that.
2 things
1: All MMORPG companys value greed over anything else
2: All MMORPG companys know the Player Base is full Of People that will Play whatever crap you put in front of them & will praise you for it ..
There is an old saying "There is a sucker born every minute" well in the MMORPG player Base its more like "There is a sucker born every Second" & the companys know it , Good recent example is Vanguard , No matter how Bad the game was there is still a player base willing to fork out cash for it .. & while this is the case Game will only get worse & will be release earlier & eariler .. I can see in 10 years companies asking for you to buy a game before its even gone into development .. don't laugh I am serious ..
MMORPGA is harder to break than cocaine addiction by the looks of it , Hey I was there back in EQ1 days & screamed blue murder about exp loss thru crashes ect But it took me 4 years to finally break myself free of the hell I was in , So I feel nothing but sympathy for the current players stuck in this cycle although they won't admit it, just as I wouldn't back then ...
Admit your Pain .. MMORPGA cure is at hand
First, I hope you aren't suggesting that just because you had a problem, that goes for everyone else too??
If you really had that much problems, my advice is:
Get away from the MMORPG community. No playing, no browsing on sites like this, or anything similar. And if you can't do that alone, get help.
Then again, you could just be ironic...
I am rather puzzled by it too, but one thing you must consider, there is a 3-4 year ramp up time to make one of these MMO's and risking that much development money on what the fanbase will be looking for 4 years from now is probably riskier than rolling dice. So they go with the safe decision and copy.
I do agree that Eve has remained different and still makes money, although the game is not for everyone. Eve's one major flaw, they want to keep the game very open. The problem that this incurs is that the scammers and those that prey on the weak have little consequence. It is far more profitable to be a pirate than an anti. Most of the people that play that game, like it that way, so it will not change.
Turbine has dared to be different, unfortunately AC2, their EQ clone was a real flop. DDO was based on board game rules, that work well with a live dungeon master but are really poorly suited to use in a MMO. But part of the agreement to get the title said they had to use that ruleset. D&D is always party related and it just turned off many players because soloing is out pretty much. They are about to embark on another existing theme world in Lord of the Rings Online. Personally I was impressed enough by the stress test to give it a try. Certainly has far better graphics than Wow, a bigger world, but I do understand that it is much like Wow.
I do think that Wow will be vulnerable late summer and fall, the expansion was preported to be more casual friendly, but it looks like again it was really just a facade and it is still basically a grind and raid game still. I figure by late summer people will have most of the alts at 70 and bored.
But so far nothing with really open ended play, with consequence though.
Then again, you could just be ironic... well you baffle me with that statement
Lukain, I never said it didn't exist. I'm saying that if you really have so much problems with MMORPGs, then why are you here? An alcoholic who really wants to be cured, doesn't park his ass in the bar...
I see MMOs as the same way, basically with the amount of success that WoW achieved financially other people look at that and say "Oh that looks easy I can do that too." Yet they do not realize the shear amount of work, financial investment, and time it takes to create a successful MMO. Especially in todays age, the budgets for some of these MMOs are rivaling big budget movies and take a good 4 - 6 years to develop.
Basically it is a bunch of companies who are trying to make a quick buck, with out doing their research.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
I started a similar topic earlier to the one being discuss here. (can read it here)My concern is the constant underdeveloped game that is, has been, fed to the MMO players. Sadly the Sci-Fy MMOs are few in between and those we see are mostly incomplete or crap.
No matter how we play any of these games in the end they are clones of a former game. Is this what we are asking for? I seriously dont think so. Im definitely not asking for a new WoW clone.
We definitely need a whole new game style. No more constant quest driven games, I think we have enough of those. How can we make developers understand that there is a market for innovative and pushing the envelope concepts as long as they are complete and not underdeveloped?
Divine
Strength and Honor
www.divineguild.com
Darkfall Online is definitely one of the more innovative concepts, though to my knowledge, still isn't totally original (though it may be much more original than all the other games currently out). And the bigger problem is...its a small company developing it, not a medium one. The small company has no previous experience with MMOGs and we have absolutely no idea if the game and/or the company is actually a serious one. Hopefully it is, but I wouldn't make any bets.
Well said.
Divine
Strength and Honor
www.divineguild.com
"What in the world is wrong with MMORPG companies?"
Thats a good f**king question.
I don't think any video game genre has ever stalled so badly in repeating unoriginal ideas as this one. On top if, the low production value these guys have is going to kill the whole idea. (Hey, you think we can a new Fantasy based MMO with races like Elves and Dwarves with Levels and stuff? I can't seem to find one)
I have theory though (hold your breath) Someone smelled a "renewal income" model a few years back in the video game industry, so they gave it a try and surprisingly it worked. They discovered people will pay recuring fees to play video games. However, the technology was all new and it was somewhat difficult and EXPENSIVE to pull off. Because of this, most of them are really scared to go to far out on a limb so they stick close to the ground. Better safe then sorry, Its very typical of any industry actually.
Leasons they are NOT learning. Producing incomplete games, they are still throwing them out the door unfinished DESPITE the FACT that you show every MMO launched in a poor technical state has failed in the past 5 years. Repeating themes...like I said, how many more "traditional" fantasy games are we gonna get before people just loose interest in the genre? Sticking with first generation mechanical ideals like "levels" and "grinding" Almost zero real inovation in the gaming experience. (Look Sigil, I don't care how pretty you make the game, or how hard or easy the death penalty is, or how many gadgets you throw in or double xp weekends, no one likes grinding which is what your game is based on.....your core game design failed)
Someone is eventually going to need to break out of the box. If not, this genre is going to go out the window in the western market. There are several things that are endangering MMO's. The first being themselves: repeating themes horrible production quality. Second, other genres closing the gap with MMOs by offering persistant qualities. (online play with the same "characters" even shooters like BF2 have adopted this, NWN2 offers the opportunity for PLAYERS to actually run their own persistant worlds) Asian game business models are really going to start putting alot of pressure on the "monthly" subscription fee model. (especially given the fact the western games have such a large quality issue attached to them) The main difference between western and Asian game models in both business and design is that Asian games are actually making allot of money. Right or wrong, good or bad, that is the case.
I found the Xfire "top 10 played MMO list very interesting.
http://www.xfire.com/cms/stats/# There is a definate descepency between what designers are doing and what people are actually playing and what is considered "popular" on this site, at least according to xfire stats.
Theres more, this is a very large and complicated question but what it really comes down to is someone grabbing their b**ls and doing something different.
So far it looks like a few will Break outa the box , with titles like Stargate Worlds & Star trek Onling even AOC all of which are not your average fantasy MMORPG So X your fingers , Hold your breath & Pray to the Online Gods that the mold will finally be broken & Companies will finally relize that Fantasy isn't the only option , Man Stargate world could be awsome if done right ..
Well, think of it. If creating a "vanilla" MMorpg takes 50 millions dollars and 5 years development, threading completely new ground what's gonna take? 10 years and 100 millions? Ask the darkfall devs for that because they are approaching that point....
It is a vicious circle. Small companies normally does not have the resources to pull off a mega title that is a lot original and succesful (check out Dark and light and Roma Victor for perfect example of original titles that well.... didn't fly as well as one could hope for), big companies have the resources but why waste it on dangerous ground?
This is NOT limited to MMorpg at all, check out all the sequels and sequels of sequels in the single player games arena too. Japanese companies here take the oscar. Romance of Three Kingdom arrived to number 11. all with little variations from each other. Dynasty warriors has 5, with 2 Samurai Warriors spin off... they are all the same damn thing. even the history is the same, the period is the same and the characters are the same.... but people STILL buy them!
However, all is not lost. There ARE mega funded projects that promise to be original, at least one: Tabula Rasa. Founded by NCsoft and with Lord British at the helm promises to deliver stuff never seen before... Will they deliver? well UO is still one of the most "original" MMorpg even made... so there are good chances it will happen again. A second promising one is the World of Darkness MMorpg from CCP. no details, but it has to be original.
And the difficulties does not stop the small companies from trying... Yes, you are right, it doesn't make much sense for a small company to go thread in the biggies courtyard. Unless they have geniuses (in which case, they won't stay small for long), they cannot pull off the same development values than biggies and so HAVE to take originality for their own.
I do not know which company announced the spy games, but before that, the small companies were doing more or less that... We have pirates game, Sandboxes games, religious crusades games and who knows what else.
So all is not lost.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
First of all: I do welcome new ideas in the MMO genres, but I'd like to comments a couple of Torak's statements.
"Someone is eventually going to need to break out of the box. If not, this genre is going to go out the window in the western market."
Maybe, but that will not happen the next few years.
"Asian game business models are really going to start putting alot of pressure on the "monthly" subscription fee model."
I'm assuming that "Asian game models" means Asian games, though it could mean rip-offs, etc. You really believe that any company will use LOTS of time and money making a top quality game without charging us? Hmm.. would love to see it, but I don't thinks it's realistic. Not until production costs drops with a large percentage, at least.
"The main difference between western and Asian game models in both business and design is that Asian games are actually making allot of money."
Which Asian game is making more money that Western? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Blizzard American? There can hardly be any MMO company making more money atm than they do. And soon we'll have LOTRO (I'm guessing a bit here - I think Turbine is Western, but I could be wrong). I haven't heard of any revoluting originality of this game, but I'm willing to bet a lot on that this will be a gigantic success.
As I said, I'd love to see more original ideas, but I don't think we'll see any revolution in the communtiy, yet. Successes like WoW and my impression that WoW attracts lots of first-time MMO-ers, suggests so. Noobs tend to go for what's popular. But if I'm right, WoW might just be the best happening for the community ever, simply because there will be a lot of new MMO-ers looking for alternative games AND genres when they get tired of WoW.
You guys wanna know whats wrong with these games???
$$$Money money .... money!$$$
The big green stuff, Peso's, Won...whatever else! All these guys care about is that monthly subscription fee or the shop items. Until everone gets wise to that and stops trying out every copy cat fantasy grinder that hits the internet, you are going to keep getting the same thing.
More WoW with different skins. Like Einstein here says, everyone loves WoW....to bad they aren't spilling over into other games like he says they will...its been 2 years and it ain't happened yet. If I'm not mistaken, most MMOs are losing subscribers. I would bet Netspooks next paycheck that Vanguard undergoes some serious revamping in the next 6 months. $OE has gotta make it a little bit more "accessable" : read WoW-like just like they did with EVERYONE of their game, after all, if Blizzard can do it, so can they. $$$$Money$$$$ Oh, and lets increase the station fee for good luck because we care, the compassion is tear jerking. You know they want to increase monthly subs, you feel it....they just don't want to be the first to do it but you are damn straight as soon as someone does, they will increase theirs within a DAY.
Viva la Revol-WoW-shion!!!!
We're all being blinded by "new car" polish, budget busting graphics, and "brand name" developers. Eventually people will forget what really made these games special... Maybe we have already forgotten.
Everytime some kid flames an underground game on this site someone's dream dies a little.
With all this cynicism, our hopes of finding a perfect MMO fade away.