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Why trust a criminal? CCP or Kug?
Ashton692
Member Posts: 138
(I posted this buried in another thread, but in the interests of hearing intelligent conversation about it I am posting it as a seperate topic for discussion - I have edited it slightly so it makes better sense in its own context, and to add a little).
In regard to trusting Kug, his recent allegations against CCP, and such - and hear me out for a second - try to fight your inner-troll!
Ok, lets assume for a second he is a criminal. What gives CCP the right to discriminate against him? I mean, if I go steal a car tommorrow that makes me a criminal as well, if CCP finds out am I no longer allowed to play EvE? Does that make the information I have any less true? How much Evidence does CCP need that I'm a criminal before they *judge* me as guilty? What court do I need to be found guilty in? When did CCP take the enforcement of law and legal matters outside of their game into their own hands? If CCP can deny customers because they are criminals, what other business can/should deny criminals? Are criminals allowed to buy groceries from grocery stores? What about after they have served their term (as Kug allegedly has) -- should we still allow companys to continue denying them services?
Don't get me wrong, criminals should be punished. They commited a crime against society and I think we are too lenient in our punishment of them. (As a side note, I think criminals get off way too easy.) ... But when private citizens and corporations take it upon themselves to both convict and punish people, as CCP has done in the case of Kug in this recent situation, then that's a dangerous precedent. Courts of law have checks, balances, and representation to make sure that things are as fair as they can be... CCPs boardroom does not.
It would be a different story in my mind if Kug had directly (allegedly) "attacked" CCP (what and whether he has attacked anything is a whole lot of speculation). But what he did was (allegedly) "attack" an unaffiliated board... BOBs board... And for allegedly attacking Bob's board CCP bans him? Is BoBs board affiliated with CCP? If a user attacked a unrelated web service would they be banned from Eve? What if Kug brought down Ebay - would he be banned from Eve? Because there should be (and there is a lot of speculation over this right now) as much affiliation between CCP and Ebay as there is between CCP and BOB... ?
You don't have to like criminals. But to turn a blind eye to anything in this life because it doesn't come from a source that is 100% pure means you are never going to have a lot of information to base your decisions on - Eve aside - I mean in anything. Truth exists apart from our opinion of it - you can choose to turn a blind eye to whatever you want, but at the end of the day it doesn't change the facts. I don't like Kug, I won't log in to Kug's site, but the information that he raises is as valid as the information that CCP does. They both have an agenda, and they both should be considered. Fact is Kug may be a criminal and he may not... that's inconsequential because only a fool takes something from the internet at face value without critical thought. But in the same breath CCP is a company thats main goal is to make money, so when drama happens that damages that they have shown they will take the route of "dismiss, misdirect, and squelch" rather then "integrity and information." So only a fool takes anything CCP says at face value as well (not to single CCP out, rare is the company that takes the high road on these types of things).
2 imperfect sources. All we have are the scraps of information we can piece together in boards like this one, and think critically about.
Cheers.
Comments
Kug attacked an EVE players forums, and took out-of-game actions. BoB is affiliated with CCP, as they're players of EVE-Online.
As I said, matters like this happen all the time in MMO's, people get death threats on chat programs such as MSN, because of something that happened in a game! It's pathetic. They deserve a ban... the same goes for hacking a players forum, and i'm sure there's many other instances.
Bottom line; It's a game, grow up, and move on.
-iCeh
The whole "game stuff doesn't go outside game" line of reasoning is an interesting one. But to follow that through to completion - it wasn't Kug that crossed game world with real world first. Fact is he simple needed to blur the line between game world and real world in order to bring it to light. I would say that confusing your RL job with a game is a much bigger confusion then (allegedly) hacking).
But I'm confused about your bottom line - how do you percieve discussing this as somehow immature? It is being discussed, it will be discussed. The only place it isn't being discussed is EvE-O. If people want to discuss it and you don't, and they are doing so constructively, as I believe my post is, how is that bad for you? In that light, who is it that should grow up?
Edit: Also one other thing - I am not aware of any other instance where CCP has banned a player, or even warned a player, for actions that the player took against some other server not affiliated with CCP. By affiliated I mean the actual word affiliated, as in legally affiliated -- if I stick up a website with "I love EVE!" in green 48 point text that doesn't make me an affiliated Eve site because I happen to play the game.
The whole "game stuff doesn't go outside game" line of reasoning is an interesting one. But to follow that through to completion - it wasn't Kug that crossed game world with real world first. Fact is he simple needed to blur the line between game world and real world in order to bring it to light. I would say that confusing your RL job with a game is a much bigger confusion then (allegedly) hacking).
But I'm confused about your bottom line - how do you percieve discussing this as somehow immature? It is being discussed, it will be discussed. The only place it isn't being discussed is EvE-O. If people want to discuss it and you don't, and they are doing so constructively, as I believe my post is, how is that bad for you? In that light, who is it that should grow up?
Ah sorry, I should have made it clear... The bottom line was for the type of people who do take things too far in games (death threat, etc...), it wasn't directed at you. Of course it should be discussed, this is a forum, that's what they're here for.
-iCeh
Hacking the servers was crossing the line if you ask me I'm sure there was a legal means to bring these events to light if someone really wanted to it would have just been ALOT harder and they just didnt want to put that much effort into it.
also from a legal standpoint "grey" areas are very few. from an ethical and moral standpoint the grey area is much larger because of the perceptions of people. to some the world is simply black and white, to others there is only grey, and all magnitudes in between these two veiws exist therefor your grey are maynot be my grey area. gathering the information was not wrong nor is it grey however the method in wich it was gained was wrong as there was likely another way to gather it. to me hacking the server to gain the information was taking the easy way out rather than working for it therfor makes it wrong in my book thats just my opinion though
Nah, that'd be erasing the line. And it would be illegal. And it would be criminal. And he would get punished if found guilty by a court of law.
But look at the other side - CCP believe that someone has done something criminal so they ban that person from their game. Since you have in your example used the famous "slippery slope" argument let me apply it to the other side -- let's say CCP believes that you, b1gs341, have done something criminal. So without any court of law, or trial, or any of the systems that we have in place they ban you from their game. Let's say they take it a step further - lets say they "sign on" to a group of MMO developers that all agree to keep a universal ban list... let's say you can't play MMOs anymore. Let's say you are innocent. That'd be a problem then wouldn't it? A historical problem we have run into before - so we have come up with concepts like "fair trial" and "due process" and we have made illegal things like "vigilanteeism"(spl?).
2 Problems:
1) Slippery Slope arguments often can be used in reverse.
2) No corporation or individual has a right to assess criminal guilt, or any guilt for that matter, much less punish for it. (I'm not aware of any English speaking country where this is the case, or where it would be applicable to the majority of the player base). Allowing a corporation to deny someone services because they themselves believe him to be a criminal is criminal.
It would be different if the "attack" was on them directly, and they were a directly invovled party. But they weren't. This was a third party message board. CCP has no right to be judge and jury to anyone in that situation. They have over stepped their bounds. Whats surprising to me is that so few people don't have a problem with it. I can only assume you don't see how badly your liberty, your right to a fair trial, and your freedom from discrimination have been hit by this (whatever those values are in your particular country, recognizing there are differences in our international community).
Whether you want to admit it or not your hero is nothing but a hacker and a criminal. And, let's face it, nobody trusts a convicted criminal... not if they have a lick of common sense.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Whether you want to admit it or not your hero is nothing but a hacker and a criminal. And, let's face it, nobody trusts a convicted criminal... not if they have a lick of common sense.
As I mentioned previously, Kug is not my hero. I don't trust the guy any more then I trust CCP. But that's the point - his information is as open to criticism and critical thought as that which comes from CCP, or anyone on this forum here really. All I have said is that to dismiss by virtue of the source alone is foolish, because we have no verifiable source, CCP included. I think that if there is an accusation of deliberatly missing a point then the 4 fingers pointing back at you might be a tell.
I am not arguing for why Kug got banned here, that's a different topic. I have seen the EULA breach list - and I have my own thoughts on that. Frankly its not important because CCP seems content to keep him banned and Kug seems content to be banned. What I am discussing is your statement, "let's face it, nobody trusts a convicted criminal..."
You see I agree with you. We are on the same page. And yet if a convicted criminal was running down the hall screaming "GET OUT, THERE IS A BOMB IN THE BUILDING!" I would probably leave the building. Maybe you would stay. I would leave because it costs me nothing to believe him. If the same guy said "Give me $100 bucks till next week," then I would probably be with you in saying "No thanks."
It costs us nothing to read Kugs words and consider them. It costs us nothing to read CCPs words and consider them. Both of them have bias, and agenda. By nature of him having a skewed moral compass on what is right and wrong with internet ettiquete doesn't mean he can't make a solid point or find in regard to issues at CCP. Do we take everything he says with a grain of salt? Yes - maybe a tablespoon - whatever your preference. But closing your eyes to the evidence because your don't like the messenger may just mean you end up missing the truth.
And in that case I hope there is no bomb in the building.
Cheers.
Who couldnt agree with if Kug hacked player accounts Kug should be banned.
If Kug was reinstated tomorrow the thread would still pose the question:
"Is it possible for a criminal, who has served his time, to make a good point about something or should we immediately discount everything they say without a thought?"
Your points have merit Ashton. Despite my revulsion of Kug it wouldn't be unwise to read and consider his words (but then again, I would be skeptical by the means which it was gained). I have heard that there are several things he confesses to, and that would be a sufficent proof IMHO.
But this is a game, I simply don't want to waste my time with this guy over a game.
thing is .. he hacked out of game messageboards... THAT is not a breach of EULA, however if he hacked (I don't know ofcourse) ingame messageboard, accounts and such then yes that is a breach of EULA and a bannable offence.
Also as rumors is that he named SirMolle and got banned for that, and that is also a bannable offence... however.... SirMolle did the same towards the hacker... why on earth did not he get banned ? is that a lesser crime ? or breach of EULA ?
Thing is also to consider that at first people and CCP denied the accusation that this hacker came with and the excuse was exactly ... "He is a criminal and a hacker you can't trust his words"... then ... atleast TWO of his accusations later where confirmed and CCP HAD to confess to these.
CCP where caught in a lie and a cover-up and the hackers word came true, so should we just dismiss all the others he come up with as a lie ? or should we be sceptical ?
I have to respect that. At some point everyone wants to forget about the debate side of it and just get on with whatever they are going to do. No doubt a little more cautious of what is being fed to you regardless of what side of the debate you are on.
Absolutely. If he hacked in game accounts or if he hacked EvE-O then that is a bannable offence, yes. As I understand it from Kugs posting of CCPs email to him those have never been allegations. The one allegation that sticks seems to be (in my words) "you made Eve more costly for us to run" which I find very laughable, because it was actually T20 that made it more costly for them to run - Kug just told people about it. It's also kind of scary because CCP could, using the same logic, ban anyone giving a bad review, or saying they don't like something in local, or anything really. Using the same logic I guess I could be banned for disagreeing with the way CCP has handled things. I wonder where they draw the line? I wonder if anything holds them accountable if not us, the community?
And yes, apparently he did name Sir Molle. And Sir Molle also named him (and gave information about his work place, and encouraged people to call it and try to get him fired, apparently - all second hand information from forums, I havent ever been directly involved).
I think we need to be skeptical of everything that CCP says. And, to the same degree, we need to be skeptical of everything Kug says. Maybe somewhere in the middle there is truth, or maybe the truth leans to one side or the other. Who do you choose between - a hacker criminal with an agenda or a company with a history of dishonesty, an agenda, and who controls all information?
... well, all information aside from the info that is hacked...
...but we can't trust what is hacked...
... but there isn't anything except what is hacked...
...and we know CCP lies...
... sigh.
Well, although that's true. It's a game people are emotionally invested in (let's face it, the monthly fee isn't the big investment). And when someone messes with something you are emotionally invested in it's pretty normal to talk about that with people that are likewise emotionally invested in it. Like we are here.
People keep saying "witch hunt... witch hunt!" .... I swear you guys are witch hunting for witch hunts. Looking over the forums here at MMORPG I don't see any witch hunts. I see people that are reporting on other people's witch hunts... and talking about how they feel about the shite-storm around Eve. And lots of opinions... but I don't see anyone using these forums as their Salim trials...
Hummm... Opinions about a pasttime people are emotioinally invested in... what the hell else would you want to talk about on these message boards? Sheesh. Let people have an opinion and express it without feeling the need to slap them down... try it... it's neat... it's called individuality. Let people feel passionate about the fact that they feel wronged... When you get good you can even disagree without taking it personally and using terms like "witch hunt" incorrectly.
Cheers.
I guess, in the end, when trying to decide who and what to trust... one must take into account who has more to lose- CCP or the criminal hacker?
Nah, that'd be erasing the line. And it would be illegal. And it would be criminal. And he would get punished if found guilty by a court of law.
Thread over. He was found guilty in 1994 and served 18 months. Currently lives in Indoenesia where hacking laws along with everything else are very lax. In the US he would probably be back in jail agian. Ask any BOB, LV, GOON, RA, MC, Outbreak, ASCN, or D2 member if they have had there forum/killboard hacked by this guy and I guarentee they will all say yes and Kug actually has bragged about it on EVE-O and his sight. Thats why he was banned and why most of EVE including members of both sides of the BOB war hate his guts.
Sorry mate - thread not over inspite of your unusual need to want it squelched. I don't automatically dismiss evidence when I don't like the person, and I don't automatically dismiss people because they've screwed up. You do, that's cool, I respect your opinion.
Maybe instead of telling other people how to feel about something you could instead tell us why you feel that any evidence presented by an unsavory character is necessarilly incorrect? Or how all people that break the law are forever after incapable of contributing to a discussion? Because these are the 2 premises you are supporting. I think they are kind of ridiculous, but I'm willing to listen (otherwise I wouldn't bother reading a message board). Are you?
Cheers.
Edit: just as an aside, the alliance leaders may "hate" him - but they still don't dismiss him. Read his boards and you will see the leaders of said alliances posting there.
The best way to proceed with Kug is to be skeptical of anything he says and only recognize that there may be a possible grain of truth in it. He has an agenda, and has been clear about what that agenda is. As such, it would be impossible to get an unbiased view of the truth from anything he says. I would count the fact that he has an obvious agenda as much more important than the fact that he is a convicted criminal.
Looking at CCP, it is a similar situation: you have to take anything they say with skepticism but as having a possible grain of truth.
Warning, incoming opinion, don't read if you can't handle it
Overall, I'd have to say I would err on the side of caution and go with giving the benefit of the doubt to CCP. Why? Because I have no way of proving that things that Kug says is true, and his agenda is so extreme that I can't possibly feel confident in him. The other reason is that I love EvE and pay CCP to enjoy my leisure time in the game, whereas I don't pay Kug to wreck indirectly my fun by making tons of allegations against CCP devs by whatever means possible (whether for a good or bad cause). I am thankful to Kug in the sense that he did expose t20, though his actions and behaviour overall are reprehensible. He managed to make EvE just a little bit fairer of a game to play, but that's enough for me. I don't want to see any more character assassinations (no pun intended).
If you can't stand the thought of cover-ups by CCP, vote with your wallet. If you can't stand the thought of a hacker calling the shots, support CCP's stance. My 2 ISKs.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
okie dokie smokie.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
which one affects you?
the so-called hacker exposed cheating in a game where the ingame currency, isks, have a realworld monetary value (via GTCs if nothing else). so by cheating, they're actually taking something that has a realworld value.
guess stealing money isn't criminal, but allegedly hacking into people, who are cheating in the game, thereby (in)directly stealing money, is?
right-o.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?