Here's two WoW designers who hate hybrids and are nerfing you

TheFranchise

http://www.zealguild.org/wiki/index.php/Paladin_FAQ

Scroll down to the "misc" section.

http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpost.php?p=206834

That's a great summary right there.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79822626&sid=1&pageNo=1

There you go, assuming no one deleted it yet.

Furor and Tigole. These two used to be hardcore EQ raiders. They tried to crash servers because paladins were out-tanking their warriors. And now they both work for Blizzard. The mind boggles.

They do "months" of pre-testing on druids, buff them up so they aren't the laughing stock of the game anymore, and then mere WEEKS later they nerf them back into the ground. Some would argue it's because they're too strong in PVP. The WoW forum moderators say the devs nerfed them because warriors should be the only real tanks in the game. Four classes can heal, but only one can now tank.

If you see lots of people standing around saying, "Group Looking For tank and then we can go," this is why. Lots of priests and druids quitting now thanks to the upcoming patch/nerf. There's a youtube video of priests trying to crash a server last week. After reading those links, it's not really a surprise anymore why WoW is the hodge-podge it is and why The Burning Crusade expansion is considered by many to have been a bait-and-switch.

cupertino

My pet (none BM spec) out tanked Warriors upto lvl 65, I found that funny.

Kyleran

Originally posted by TheFranchise

They do "months" of pre-testing on druids, buff them up so they aren't the laughing stock of the game anymore, and then mere WEEKS later they nerf them back into the ground. Some would argue it's because they're too strong in PVP. The WoW forum moderators say the devs nerfed them because warriors should be the only real tanks in the game. Four classes can heal, but only one can now tank.
If you see lots of people standing around saying, "Group Looking For tank and then we can go," this is why. Lots of priests and druids quitting now thanks to the upcoming patch/nerf. There's a youtube video of priests trying to crash a server last week. After reading those links, it's not really a surprise anymore why WoW is the hodge-podge it is and why The Burning Crusade expansion is considered by many to have been a bait-and-switch.

Blizz has always hated their hyrbrid, hence my Paladin/Druid were relegated to healing roles at endgame... which was a large reason why I quit just before BC came out, because I knew it would be a whole lot more of the same...



In fact, in some ways...  BC was a step backwards..... (Karazan raid ID IMO)

iddmitri

LOL nerf, don't worry they will buff you soon in 2 months might be, cry more - they will buff you sooner. LOL

Rayx0r

Maybe they need to change the term "hybrid"

Warlocks and Hunters are hybrids and we know how nerfed they are /sarcasm

Antipathy

To be quite honest Blizzard has a pretty tall order: In order to keep people happy they have to make sure that:



- All classes should be needed in a raid



- All classes should be able to solo



- All clases must be reasoanbly effective in PvP



- Hybrid classes shouldn't be better than dedicated classes in the areas in which the dedicated class specializes



- But hybrid classes must still have a role



So under most circumstances druids shouldn't be able to outtank  prot warriors (or what is the point of a prot warrior)

Nor should they be able to regularly outdps rogues (or why take a rogue?)



It's an incredibly complicated balancing act, and I can't think of any other game following the everquest model that's got it right e.g. EQ2 forums are full of complaints about nerfs and imbalance (and they don't even have nearly as many requirements for PvP balance). Blizzard hasn't done a bad job. But can they achieve perfection? Is that even possible given the variety of demands placed upon them?

freebirdpat

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Originally posted by Antipathy
To be quite honest Blizzard has a pretty tall order: In order to keep people happy they have to make sure that:- All classes should be needed in a raid- All classes should be able to solo- All clases must be reasoanbly effective in PvP- Hybrid classes shouldn't be better than dedicated classes in the areas in which the dedicated class specializes- But hybrid classes must still have a roleSo under most circumstances druids shouldn't be able to outtank prot warriors (or what is the point of a prot warrior)
Nor should they be able to regularly outdps rogues (or why take a rogue?)It's an incredibly complicated balancing act, and I can't think of any other game following the everquest model that's got it right e.g. EQ2 forums are full of complaints about nerfs and imbalance (and they don't even have nearly as many requirements for PvP balance). Blizzard hasn't done a bad job. But can they achieve perfection? Is that even possible given the variety of demands placed upon them?

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QFT, This is the reasons why. the OP has no idea what he is talking about.

Enforcer71

Originally posted by Antipathy

To be quite honest Blizzard has a pretty tall order: In order to keep people happy they have to make sure that:



- All classes should be needed in a raid



- All classes should be able to solo



- All clases must be reasoanbly effective in PvP



- Hybrid classes shouldn't be better than dedicated classes in the areas in which the dedicated class specializes



- But hybrid classes must still have a role



So under most circumstances druids shouldn't be able to outtank  prot warriors (or what is the point of a prot warrior)

Nor should they be able to regularly outdps rogues (or why take a rogue?)



It's an incredibly complicated balancing act, and I can't think of any other game following the everquest model that's got it right e.g. EQ2 forums are full of complaints about nerfs and imbalance (and they don't even have nearly as many requirements for PvP balance). Blizzard hasn't done a bad job. But can they achieve perfection? Is that even possible given the variety of demands placed upon them?

I would say you hit the nail on the head, very well put

Precusor

Raid centric games allways pigeon hole classes to specific roles.



Heres an intresting thread about the hybrid issue

forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html

TheFranchise

Full article on Curse-Gaming about the after-you-bought TBC changes and the two designers.

http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/general-news/1014/druidshybrids-call-for-furor-and-tigoles-termination/

godpuppet

In groups Hybrid Classes should assume support roles. Support Healer, Support Tank, Support Damage Dealer. They are there to fit the spare slots when the key components of a group (Tank, healer, Crowd control) is assembled.



Unfortunately, whats been happening in WoW, is that Druids, Shamans and Paladins, have become just as good, if not better than the dedicated classes at their specific jobs. Rendering the dedicated classes, second class.

Knightblast

What's happening is that the balancing act is catching up to Blizzard, finally.

WoW tries to balance classes and races for (1) solo PvE, (2) group PvE and (3) group PvP ... they claim that they do not try to balance solo PvP, which makes sense.  Still, trying to balance things for (1), (2) and (3) is virtually impossible unless one creates a diferent ruleset for PvP, which Blizzard, some exceptions aside, is very unwilling to do.

Most of the changes and nerfings that are happening are being done as a result of PvP, and the arena in particular.  The druid nerf (and I play a druid) was needed because bear was doing too much DPS in PvP -- that was having a spillover effect on instances and raid groups (hence the complaints from warriors) but the real issue was PvP because a druid could bear up and do very good DPS with mangle in PvP with higher armor and HP than anyone else.  It needed to be balanced for PvP.  So Blizzard nerfed DPS, armor and HP for bears so that bears are not that viable for PvP anymore.  That has the spillover effect of nerfing bear tanking for PvE, as well, never mind its use for solo levelling.  But rest assured PvP was the driver.

The same holds for the even more massive nerf that mages are getting.  Icelance was being used by mages in the arena on forzen targets to spam crits without a counter.  So Blizzard is stepping in and nerfing frost nova, something which basically destroys the main frost build and renders a 5 point talent (Shatter) worthless.  It messes up PvE play for all frost mages, but really was a PvP-motivated change.

The reason for all of this is that Blizzard wants the arena to be a major source of endgame activity and such relating to gear progression, and therefore they are sending the clear message that the main yardstick for balance right now will be performance in the arena, and if that has the impact of nerfing PvE performance, so be it.

As for hybrids, the reason why hybrids are broken has to do with WoW's overall game design for group content.  That design (which is in part controlled by one of these guys) contemplates a tank and spank setup which uses the mob DPS as the main way of ratcheting up difficulty.  In that setting, with the use of burst damage like that as the difficulty slider, healing becomes critically important.  Combine that with the fact that Blizzard only gave four classes healing abilities (and gave healing abilities to *all* hybrid classes), and it doesn't take a genius to see why hyrbids are typically asked to heal in group settings.  Blizzard can't really change that without changing the overall group content design, a design which is clearly setip with "pure" classes in mind rather than hybrids.  So, as a result, a lot of the nice stuff hybrids can do -- the varied roles, the utlities, the switching, etc. -- is just not nearly as important as the ability to heal in the setting of Blizzard's tank/spank/heal setup.  It's the whole design of the game that pigeonholes hybrids this way, not class design alone.  And, yes, one of these two anti-hybrid guys just so happens to be the guy in charge of instance design.  Go figure.

Jyhad

The nerf is not that bad for druids.  We will still have a place.  I just wish that they would stop balancing the game on PvP and stick to PvE and Raids.  The majority of people I think just worry about that part of the game. Also if those designers are nerfing hybrids because they don't like those classes then they need to get a different job, because they should be designing a game for the players not them.

Antipathy

I'd agree - the majority of players will never bother with the arenas. Probably an even smaller percentage will take them seriously than the numbers who raid. So why base the game around them?



But on the plus side, hunters tend to be pretty crap in the current arena setup due to LOS issues. Does that mean they are about to get a large boost (despite already being, if well played, perfectly competent in other areas)

meat_bag0

Originally posted by Rayx0r


Maybe they need to change the term "hybrid"
Warlocks and Hunters are hybrids and we know how nerfed they are /sarcasm

maybe they left locks alone because of all the anti-fear crap thats floating around out there...whats a lock sposed to do to survive against a warrior? use their cloth armor and amazingly powerful DAGGERS?!?!  no locks rely on their spells and thier minions  to actually survive...without spell effectiveness and the minion they would be a crater in the ground...





hunters? yeah powerful melee and ranged? AND A PET?? hmmm seems too good to be true right? well it is true...hunters are easy to lvl and they are good all around characters in my opinion at least...





if there was a perfect way to make every class equal as far as power but keep them unique, would it still be fun to support your favorite? would you even have a favorite? i mean everyone thinks that one class is sooo much better than the next but really its just that they have thier own strengths and weaknesses... if everyone whined about losing to a specific class then all classes would be run straight into the ground... that or every class would be exactly the same? whats the fun in that? and does it really matter if one class is slightly more powerful in some way than another? thats the beauty of diversity, everyone is powerful in something...but no one has it all...not even hunters...



NOTE: This reply is not directed towards Rayx0r or any other peson. It isnt meant to be flaming in any way, just stating my opinion. I was just browsing the forum and this post caught my eye because I enjoy playing WoW as a warlock. Thanks you for reading and for any positive feedback i may get.

woeye

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Originally posted by Novaseeker

What's happening is that the balancing act is catching up to Blizzard, finally.
WoW tries to balance classes and races for (1) solo PvE, (2) group PvE and (3) group PvP ... they claim that they do not try to balance solo PvP, which makes sense.  Still, trying to balance things for (1), (2) and (3) is virtually impossible unless one creates a diferent ruleset for PvP, which Blizzard, some exceptions aside, is very unwilling to do.
Most of the changes and nerfings that are happening are being done as a result of PvP, and the arena in particular.  The druid nerf (and I play a druid) was needed because bear was doing too much DPS in PvP -- that was having a spillover effect on instances and raid groups (hence the complaints from warriors) but the real issue was PvP because a druid could bear up and do very good DPS with mangle in PvP with higher armor and HP than anyone else.  It needed to be balanced for PvP.  So Blizzard nerfed DPS, armor and HP for bears so that bears are not that viable for PvP anymore.  That has the spillover effect of nerfing bear tanking for PvE, as well, never mind its use for solo levelling.  But rest assured PvP was the driver.
The same holds for the even more massive nerf that mages are getting.  Icelance was being used by mages in the arena on forzen targets to spam crits without a counter.  So Blizzard is stepping in and nerfing frost nova, something which basically destroys the main frost build and renders a 5 point talent (Shatter) worthless.  It messes up PvE play for all frost mages, but really was a PvP-motivated change.
The reason for all of this is that Blizzard wants the arena to be a major source of endgame activity and such relating to gear progression, and therefore they are sending the clear message that the main yardstick for balance right now will be performance in the arena, and if that has the impact of nerfing PvE performance, so be it.
As for hybrids, the reason why hybrids are broken has to do with WoW's overall game design for group content.  That design (which is in part controlled by one of these guys) contemplates a tank and spank setup which uses the mob DPS as the main way of ratcheting up difficulty.  In that setting, with the use of burst damage like that as the difficulty slider, healing becomes critically important.  Combine that with the fact that Blizzard only gave four classes healing abilities (and gave healing abilities to *all* hybrid classes), and it doesn't take a genius to see why hyrbids are typically asked to heal in group settings.  Blizzard can't really change that without changing the overall group content design, a design which is clearly setip with "pure" classes in mind rather than hybrids.  So, as a result, a lot of the nice stuff hybrids can do -- the varied roles, the utlities, the switching, etc. -- is just not nearly as important as the ability to heal in the setting of Blizzard's tank/spank/heal setup.  It's the whole design of the game that pigeonholes hybrids this way, not class design alone.  And, yes, one of these two anti-hybrid guys just so happens to be the guy in charge of instance design.  Go figure.

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/agree 100%
The best explanation I've seen so far.

Knightblast

Originally posted by Antipathy

I'd agree - the majority of players will never bother with the arenas. Probably an even smaller percentage will take them seriously than the numbers who raid. So why base the game around them?



But on the plus side, hunters tend to be pretty crap in the current arena setup due to LOS issues. Does that mean they are about to get a large boost (despite already being, if well played, perfectly competent in other areas)

Blizzard doesn't seem to be in a buffing sort of mood at the moment, but I do think that the Hunter LOS issues will be addressed at some stage.

catinhat

i liked the post about people standing about not being able to find a tank cus the druids quit..........ummm arent druids not sposed to be tanks and thats the whole point. i run a warrior in wow and well im sposed to be the tank. druids are a hybrid and were originally intended to be good at most but not great at any kinda like shamans thats really what the hybrids been about in all other games so well excuse my ignorance if im wrong. i see this as a good thing maybe worriors will get more ch       ance at playing their "role" and not having it taken as much by classes that have no place doing such. this is just y 2 cents i sure people will disagree wiht me an youre perfectly in your rights to do that but thats just how i see it

 

 

r0hn

I've been saying for weeks now.  Don't nerf druids, buff warriors.  A simple 3-5% DPS increase for warriors would fix their viability as a tank in PvE.  It would make them more desireable for groups, especially to have more than 1 in a group.  I just can't see how giving them a small DPS increase is going to make them overpowered in PvP, which I imagine would be everyone's initial reaction.

One thing that would be good for warriors is positional skills.  What do I mean?  Well, right now groups only want 1 warrior because having a 2nd warrior in the group is prohibitive.  Groups would rather have druids or an extra DPS'r (2 mages?) or another healer.  Warriors are too vanilla to have 2 in 1 group.

Positional skills could be talents or trainer based skills where their DPS goes up when fighting from the side or back of the monster.  They could have combo skils too?  WoW won't do it, but at least this idea would increase the viability of warriors in groups, and make them more desireable when a group is looking at adding a 2nd warrior.  Just my thought.

 

 

DrowNoble

Well I've taken my warrior into a group before with another warrior.  Since mine is fury spec, that essentially precludes him from being "main tank" as he is all about dps.  So the protection warrior is main tank and tries to hold aggro while I would just go in and dps/offtank. 

I know many say warriors need to be buffed, but I know I could out dps a feral druid every time.  A friend was a 58 feral druid (my war was 57) and damage meters always put  me about 20% ahead of her in damage output.  Of course she could tank better in bear form due to more armor, but then again if I wanted to main tank I would of specialized with protection. 

As for warlocks, my main complaint is that they get no dispelling debuff ability.  Druids can cure poison/curse, mages curse, priests magic & disease, pallies magic/poison/disease, shamans get purge (enemy & friendly dispeller), hunters can cure their pets (with talent) yet locks can cure nothing.  I also think the felguard should of been a 70 pet, with the 40 pt demonology being something more along the line of "improved enslavement" for charming a demon pet much longer than 5 mins.

My 2c worth...

 

laffncry

Originally posted by TheFranchise

Furor and Tigole. These two used to be hardcore EQ raiders. They tried to crash servers because paladins were out-tanking their warriors. And now they both work for Blizzard. The mind boggles.
They do "months" of pre-testing on druids, buff them up so they aren't the laughing stock of the game anymore, and then mere WEEKS later they nerf them back into the ground. Some would argue it's because they're too strong in PVP. The WoW forum moderators say the devs nerfed them because warriors should be the only real tanks in the game. Four classes can heal, but only one can now tank.
If you see lots of people standing around saying, "Group Looking For tank and then we can go," this is why. Lots of priests and druids quitting now thanks to the upcoming patch/nerf. There's a youtube video of priests trying to crash a server last week. After reading those links, it's not really a surprise anymore why WoW is the hodge-podge it is and why The Burning Crusade expansion is considered by many to have been a bait-and-switch.

got to agree with this! i think before they buff class they should try this on a testing-like-server. not like what they've done! i have nothing against the druid nerfing, it's just how they buff then nerf class is entirely wrong!

Celestian

Anyone that plays wow seriously and doesn't think Druids didn't need a tweak is, well not that bright.

As to paladins, they are fine even after the changes. The only people complaining about the changes to them are the people that mistakenly played a Paladin and expected them to be a DPS class.

Knightblast

Originally posted by Celestian


Anyone that plays wow seriously and doesn't think Druids didn't need a tweak is, well not that bright.

But the nature of what happened wasn't reasonably describable as a "tweak".  Characterizing it that was is, in my opinion, not that bright.

Pday

Well if you look at Blizzards own statements warriors and priests are considered hybrids post tbc, warriors being a tank/dps hybrid and priests being a heal/dps hybrid, this means that by design these classes shouldnt be getting to have a hand up in any of their roles.



WoW lacks pure classes since the only ones that are pure are the dps classes hunter, mage, warlock, rogue, all other classes can fill alternate roles in a raid.

r0hn

 

Originally posted by DrowNoble


Well I've taken my warrior into a group before with another warrior.  Since mine is fury spec, that essentially precludes him from being "main tank" as he is all about dps.  So the protection warrior is main tank and tries to hold aggro while I would just go in and dps/offtank. 
I know many say warriors need to be buffed, but I know I could out dps a feral druid every time.  A friend was a 58 feral druid (my war was 57) and damage meters always put  me about 20% ahead of her in damage output.  Of course she could tank better in bear form due to more armor, but then again if I wanted to main tank I would of specialized with protection.   

This would contradict everything I have read.  My only conclusion on this would be difference in gear, and it would have to be a significant difference.  Everything I have read suggest Druids approach Rogue DPS output which has put off Rogues.

I don't have a druid nor have I done any significant research on them to know for sure.

r0hn

Originally posted by Pday

Well if you look at Blizzards own statements warriors and priests are considered hybrids post tbc, warriors being a tank/dps hybrid and priests being a heal/dps hybrid, this means that by design these classes shouldnt be getting to have a hand up in any of their roles.



WoW lacks pure classes since the only ones that are pure are the dps classes hunter, mage, warlock, rogue, all other classes can fill alternate roles in a raid.

Can you provide link to the blizzard statements on this?  It's the first I have heard that warriors and priests are considered a hybrid.  It's almost laughable to consider warriors a DPS hybrid.  You must be joking.

It is easy to say something, it's different to actually prove it.