Forcing players to think creatively will never make a company the big bucks. People see what WoW has done and try to emulate them. The reason why you can't have truly interactive , creative quests is that games that are a success must cater to the lowest common denominator. That means if little timmy retard can't figure it out, he'll cry and quit the game. And the thousands of of people just like him will follow suit. In my opinion Trials of Atlantis was hard work, but it was one of the best expansions for any game I've ever played. It had exactly the kinds of things you are talking about. Cool quests that followed certain mythologies, quests that fit together with each other and took many people working together, or using creative tactics to finish, and yet all the little momma's boy crybabies freaked out over it. Way too many people hated the fact that other players who were more dedicated to working hard could be more powerful than they were and Mythic did what was unthinkable to me, they created a server cluster that made it possible for 1/3 of the people to run away from the hard work and play safe knowing they would never have to worry about facing people more powerful than themselves. By catering to the lowest common denominator, Mythic made it much harder for those left behind to have fun. Now, because of the winey kids, 2/3 of the game gets to scrounge for good fights and more and more people quit every day because of it. The end result? Only 1 cluster with decent population rather than 5. Granted, they will learn from this. If toa had never had existed, the state of the game would be much better. A lot of people quit because of it, alot of people quit when populations declined because of the remedy. I would bet that nothing even resembling the hard work/reward system of that expansion will be in warhammer. The end result, a gaming philosophy of easier path to superiority and all around weaker, blander classes and play.
I know many people that come to these forums are very knowledgable about the games because if you come to places like this, there's a pretty good chance that you have sought information elsewhere on the net. Information that has made your characters more powerful and better able to compete or complete the hardest of the challenges your game has to offer. The problem is, the vast majority of MMO players do not come to the internet for any kind of supplemental information so when they run into a quest in a game that appears to be too hard, they immediately give up if the first few people they ask in game can't help them. Anything that appears to be foreign to them could also appear to be difficult and many players just don't have the time or the will power to see things through to the end. A quest where a DM type message appears to guide the story along could have disasterous consequences if one of players didn't respond in time or was incapable of 'thinking on their feet'. While these things you were talking about seem relatively simple to many people here, what about the rest of the players?
If you think I am taking a relatively low look at the general player base in MMO's out there, how many times have you had to answer the absolute most basic questions for people in game? When I started playing WoW, I made an undead rogue. 5 or 10 minutes into my experience with the game I started seeing the dumbest questions imaginable. As you leave the starter area there is a road leading to a small village. One of the very first things you come across is the Inn. And yet I heard many people asking where is the #$%! ing Inn? Dammit! Been running around for 20 minutes and can't find the Inn! Can someone please help? Actually had 1 guy ask me where it was while standing directly in front of it. Game companies understand that if they don't cater to the LCD, they won't get nearly as many subscribers as they would following a tired, bland formula that other's have used to find success. Those same kinds of people that would complain about those kinds of things are the same kinds of people that end up being very vocal decriers of the game so game companies have to make sure they are just as satisfied as everyone else.
EQ2 does this fairly well, due to their instancing they can do some pretty interesting scripted events.
I very very much suggest you do the diety quest lines for your side of play, those were great fun.
They have really pushed questing forward and in no other game do you have such interesting ones, I suspect we will have to wait for AoC before we see something better.
Does not mean they do not have the kill this and that and run with this to over there.
But there are only so many variations you can have.
Kill = Combat
Travel = Explore
Fix = Craft
Thats basically it, variations and more or less of one or the other migth occur but in the end it boils down to this.
Your suggestion is not bad, but as someone said it can be done in a single player game, not so much in an MMO.
Content is all good but if noone bothers with it, it is just wasted space on a harddrive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there are 3 ways that mmo developers are branching off the typical quest system in future mmos. First is the Age of Conan approach which seems to be very freedom oriented. The twitch combat and gruesome gameplay makes questing something you would do almost never. Second is Ragnarok Online 2's Dynamic Quest system. Simply put it allows you to actually make choices in quests. Instead of go collect 10 wolf skins, it will have choices along the way ot collecting those wolf skins that affects the outcome of the quest. Finally, there is the Guild Wars approach that I think Gods and Hero's is gonna follow to a degree.
1) No wonder MMO developers are so uncreative and crappy, they must be just as close-minded as almost all of you. My quest I listed is incredibly easy on resources (Requiring 1 sound effect, a few voice/text messages, 1 triggered script, and one arrow animation, all the rest is already in the world (An inn, a cabin, and the GROUND.) The problems you talked about are not just easily worked around and easy to prevent, but they aren't really problems at all unless the developers are mentally disabled. An incredibly easy/lazy fix would be instancing or a form of light-instancing. If no-instances at all, it's STILL EASY to work around.
2) 30 groups doing the same quest? No, that doesn't happen even in World of Warcraft. A server can only handle so many people. These people differ in level ranges, and if zones are based on levels, then zones as well. This limits the amount of people down to only a handful of specific level-ranged and thus zone-ranged groups. The fact is that nearly no MMO can match the popularity of WoW, and thus have even FEWER groups (some MMO's have only 1-2 at any given time, IF THAT)... But even if as popular as WoW, the fact is that the quests like that are the "average quests." The fact is that more than one group starting an average (nothing special) random quest from a random npc IN THE SAME ZONE, AT THE SAME TIME, is incredibly rare. But EVEN IF that was a problem, it's STILL easy to fix. Why is it so easy? Because of C.R.E.A.T.I.V.I.T.Y. Something you close-minded people cannot grasp.
3) Make 10,000 quests like that? Wow, I could do that EASILY. I just made that quest out of the top of my head in a matter of minutes. You know how EASY it is to make a quest? Even if there's 100 "carry this from point A to point B." because of the factors of randomness, variety, enemies, events, and EVERYTHING, not only would you be able to make a HUGE variety of the same quest with COMPLETELY different feel to it, but it would be an easy task just for one person (given the amount of time to write all of it down.) It's a simple matter of a certain # of factors, which can all vary, combined with other factors to make not just an endless amount of the same type of quest, but ones that don't even feel similar. With just one "type" of quest, you can make hundreds, even thousands if you have enough variables. Then multiply that by the hundreds of "types" you can imagine and create. It's called C.R.E.A.T.I.V.I.T.Y.
4) Wow you are almost all incredibly close-minded.
5) It would be just as easy to implement this idea, as well as any singleplayer idea, into an MMO. Why? Because MMO's are the exact same thing as any other video game, except you have a lot of people. Put a few easy preventive measures and counter-measures in the game, and you have this easy as well as any other without any problems.
6) With a DM pushed Player-directed quest, it is incredibly easy to not just implement these quests, but to specifically place players in parts of the world that are made to be especially beautiful. (I.E. waterfalls, big valleys, mountain-tops, etc.)
7) Wow, you are almost all incredibly close-minded.
8) Anyone who says "It can't be done." is not just lacking any creativity, imagination, or ambition, but is also lacking an incredibly amount of intelligence. Impossible is hardly an obstacle, let alone something that isn't just possible, but relatively easy given today's standard scripts, triggers, and 3d sounds and environment.
9) Wow, you are almost all incredibly close-minded.
If such an inn were to be destroy, the fact is that the entire quest is still alive.
First, the orcs were lost behind you and couldnt' "catch you" in the first place, so there wouldn't be any "Burning of the inn."
The point is that you get away. There is no "wilderness" skill.
Second, let's say there is and the orcs burn down the inn. Then from then on the Inn is burnt down. Any player who does the same quest will have the EXACT same options as you
1) Tent in the wilderness
2) Log Cabin
3) Inn
The only difference is that what they do it, the inn will have been burnt mostly (not completely destroyed; they happen to find one or two rooms left that although charred, are still good enough to protect from the weather) and there won't be npc's, lively music, bar noise, etc.
After X amount of time, said inn is rebuild. Randomized named npc's (perhaps always with the same last name) rebuild the Inn and the Inn is once again alive.
You could do this to EVERYTHING in the game world. Have a "Destroyed" version and a "Alive" version. The world is rebuilt, people get away, sons grow into manhood and take over the dead father's business, etc. etc.
The fact remains though that the INN has absolutely nothing to do with the main quest. It's a CHOICE. Even if it were COMPLETELY destroyed, you would still have two options to use the Log Cabin or use the tents. This wouldn't stop the other people from doing the same quest, nor would it change ANYTHING other than the fact you can't use the 3rd option OR the 3rd option is a little bit different.
But this is exactly it. Say there's a 20% chance the orcs catch up to you and burn the inn down. This creates even MORE variety.
1) Side quests. Instead of Inn-people stealing your stuff, orcs are attacking. You can't fight them all (it's an army), but you have the options to
a) Escort some people out alive
b) Run for your own lives, screw anyone else
c) Fight off some orcs to rescue "the children"
In the end of all three results, as long as you don't moronically try to take on the entire army, between the burning, the attacking/pillaging/carnage, you manage to get away.
If you choose to run away alone, nothing happens but your own safety. Save a person? There's a certain % chance you get a reward of X to Y gold. Also the person you 'rescue' runs off and disappears, and thus when the Inn is "rebuilt" the same named NPC comes back to be tavern keeper, etc. while the ones not saved come back from "Billy Thompson" to his son/brother randomized name "Bob Thompson."
You see how this works? Easily done. Why? Because all you're doing is
1) One scripted event that says "If player is on X quest, then trigger "on-fire graphics and quest"
2) (Sleep animation, black out and back in, inn is now burning and ambience noise of screams/flames.)
3) Simple side-quest. Talk to NPC, simple "HELP! Lead me out of here!" Yes or No accept. Yes they follow you. If (NPC) gets to X to Y location (safe location) then NPC says "Thank you so much!" Randomized reward, and NPC runs off and "disappears"
4) The longer you stay, the tougher and the more orcs appear. This is as simple as Gods & Heroes greek reinforcements on a timed basis.
5) All other NPC's are as simple as this. A simple "HELP!" followed by a "YES OR NO" acceptance to help or not, which results in a /follow or not.
6) Script that says after X time, Inn goes from "on-fire" graphics to "burnt graphics".
7) Script that says after X time in "burnt-graphics" trigger "Living Inn"
8) Script that says "If NPC rescued then "Same Name." If NPC not rescued, then 20% chance for "Random Name".
That's like what, a few scripts and 3 graphical triggers, and 2 quest triggers with an incredibly easy "Follow Player" NPC rescue script?
If two groups happen to do this same quest at the same time, then one will trigger it before the other. This results in the late second group "Walking towards a Inn, then see it catch fire." or "Talking in bar, then it turns to the raid."
The second group has all of the SAME options. Perhaps they are still in need of rest though if they didn't get to sleep, so AFTER they escape/rescue NPC's, they must tent or use the log cabin.
The fact is, with a few amount of scripts and triggers, along with a few small counter-measures (such as the Inn can't catch on fire twice) you can make an entire game-world of creative quests with fun side-quests AND a changing world.
Don't say anything is impossible, because these things are NOT impossible. Given the right view, scripts, and counter-measures, it can work.
No, you're close-minded because you think it can't be done. B would also be the only case, except for the fact that THEY ARE NOT HEAVILY SCRIPTED.
It isn't very hard to have a script that says
"If Player is on "Quest 2" then activate "Side-Quest 1" which triggers the script to have the DM say "Orcs are coming after you and there are too many, RUN TO THE FOREST!" and maybe a trigger that shows some orc models walking towards you.)
Once you step into the forest, it triggers "If Player activated "Side-Quest 1" then activate "Side-Quest 1a" which triggers the DM saying "The only way out is the river, SWIM!"
Once you swim down current (perhaps the current takes you away, forcing you to only go downstream) and hit a certain spot/area, "If Player activated "Side Quest 1a" then activate "Side-Quest 1b" which the DM says "You feel tired and need to rest. You see a log cabin, your map shows an Inn, or you can rest." Add Debuff 1.
If player Rests (Using an Inn, Tent, Bed, etc. ALWAYS activates "Rest" like a faster heal, sleep animation, etc.) then remove Debuff 1. Trigger DM, "You feel rested and can now continue your journey to the town."
You press "M" to look at your map, and adventure to the town, regardless of any side-quests or anything else. Maybe there's more to the quest, maybe not.
Now, if they do not go into the forest, or if they dont travel the river (which is the only means of escape) then the orcs just come in stronger and stronger or larger and larger swarms until the player 1) Runs away into the forest and then river like the DM directed, or 2) Dies because the orcs are an army and you can't beat an army.
That is not very much scripting, and it's ESPECIALLY not "heavy scripting"
It's very simple actually, just triggers and "IF THEN ELSE"
I am not a major programmer, but I do know how triggers and "IF THEN ELSE" statements work.
It is far from impossible like a close-minded person would say.
And in an MMO world? Almost as easy as a singleplayer world. Definitely not harder, just not as easy.
All you would need is a certain area (Say 10x10 square) that if stepped on by the player, it triggers
IF player is on Quest 1, THEN activate Side-Quest 1a, ELSE do nothing. (Of course the ELSE doesn't need to be there, but I wanted to include it because it's also a part of the simplistic code.)
This is easy scripting. If the player is on the quest, the quest happens and the fun begins. If not, then nothing happens.
Also, to direct them.
After activating the trigger...
IF player waits for "5 Minutes" (without swimming down the river trigger script) THEN spawn "Ten lvl 10 Orcs"
This forces the player to eventually say "We can't hold them off any longer, RETREAT!"
This allows the player to fight the orcs until they can't anymore, or perhaps they actually WIN against the orcs and thus can continue to travel to the town.
Such events can happen no matter where they step. Such as
IF Player is not in combat, and IF player is in [the zone that is halfway to the destination] THEN activate "Bandits attack" script.
Such events can be things like attacks from creatures, attacks from the enemy who wants the magical item you are carrying, an overwhelming attack that forces you to change your directions (but still allows you to escape eventually) to whatever you want.
You could even include scripts such as randomized encounters that can not just be certain creatures, BUT ALSO things like traveling merchants (with really good deals or special items), or other unique things.
What is cooler than a set of items that can ONLY BE BOUGHT from traveling merchants who are RANDOM in encounters. Perhaps have an INCREDIBLY RARE chance (like 0.01% or lower) where a traveler comes by and teaches you a special skill/ability, or gives you a rare item, or sells you an incredibly rare item, etc.
Special RANDOM encounters can easily be activated by simple IF THEN statements.
I'm all for creativity in quests, but im going to take this as a programmers point of view because its not all simple as just write a script when it comes to MMOs the server actually has to know what to send back and forth and the quests DO Have to be tested and tested quickly. Quests with all sorts of extra animations and cut scenes can take longer to ensure they work even if they are really cool and immersive.
The hardest choice as a developer (due to time to create and test and make sure this content works) is do we want alot of simple quests that are fairly easy to implement / test and a few really good detailed quests that might take more time so that the players have plenty of content and a few surprises along the way OR do you want less content thats more detailed and more 'creative'. It all sounds easy yea just write a script and go but this isnt' Neverwinter Nights these are MMOs.
Everytime they create something new they have to create and test packets, then test it internally, then test it on the test servers. I mean it sounds way cool to have these lil mini quick cut scenes but I could see where a server that has several thousand people on it might choke on busy hours with telling the client hey play this cut scene plus should the server flag the player as non attackable? How does an NPC read that flag? Can it read that flag? The more flags and checks you put on something the slower it gets. All this comes into account when they start designing quests, usually by the time they design quests the servers and clients are built and they're restricted to the limitations of the packets unless they add to it which then can cause all sorts of other issues.
Granted there is an over abundance of go kill X number of mobs in alot of games, but they still have quests that can be rather funny or entertaining. Dynamic quests that change on the player's choice are rare because they could have tons of cases they have to program around like what happens if they do this or if they do this. As cool as dynamic quests would be...I could see they'd be a huge hassle on the server for everyone.
OP you can flame away and say im making up excuses but I am a programmer...I see the hell that adding ONE thing to a program can do it even if it appears really simple.
I love creative quests but sometimes I'd prefer the game to just work over having cool quests (although I admit I wish Wow had less Kill X number of Mob quests or Deliver this item quests and something a tad more dynamic)
I may of rambled a bit its late and the caffeine is wearing off!
btw IF statements are actually really slow. I personaly hate using them and try not to unless there is no other way to check a case.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
They are practically the exact same thing in terms of animations, cut scenes, immovable players as the scenes take place, etc. etc.
A year ago if you told me this, I'd believe you. You tell me this now though, with quests coming out from newer MMO's, quests I've already seen in game, and quests that are highly animated, with text, graphics, and cut scenes in LOTR, well, I don't believe you at all.
From a programmers stand point making any game is probably a difficult task. Making these quests in relation to regular difficulty of making a game/quests, easy.
The fact is that it is completely possible. Not just because it is a very simple concept with very little scripting, but also because other MMO's have already made a step in this direction.
You can't tell me that you can't have a lot of animations when games today already do a lot of animations. Actually I probably got a lot of inspiration from LOTR's cut-scene quests and animations.
To say it's impossible is to be close minded. To say it's too difficult is to lack ambition. To say there's too many flaws is to lack creativity. To completely scoff at the idea is just laziness and ignorance.
I would rather have 10 quests that are AMAZING then to have 100 quests that suck.
Quality over quantity. With a randomized variable system, it would NOT be an overwhelming task to have creative quests, along with a variety of quests.
With randomized variables, you make about one complex quest which results in hundreds of quests (the more variables, the more variety.) Do it just right, and you have yourself an amazingly well-done quest system and video game.
You're a programmer, and I'm sure you know how bad it is when you just want to add ONE thing to a program. But MMO's are not made be one guy. They are made by a team over the process of YEARS. This can be done, and will eventually happen, even if 100 years into the future.
Would you prefer creative quests, or the same dull uncreative quests FOREVER?
Eventually people will get bored of MMO's lame "Kill X beetles" quests and it'll stop making money. That's when things will rather change, or MMO's will die. I prefer the change part, not the die part.
I have been interested in REAL rpg's that are amazing, despite their graphical nature.
I realized that graphics really don't matter very much when I made the "LOTR vs. Vanguard" graphics thread. I then turned my eyes to real gameplay instead of eye candy.
The quests you're talking about already exist. They may be the minority of thousands of Kill X and Get Y quests that exist in MMO's, but they do exist.
How about, we're walking along and a NPC flags us down and exclaims that his master is being attacked by a nasty drakota. We run ahead and run into the temple and sure enough, a huge drakota, with friends, is in fact menacing a poor old sage standing on a small walkway over a lava pit. We kill the drakota and save the old sage from the powerful drakota and he thanks us by offering a quest. The rest of the story ends up in 2 powerful forces vying for control of the land. We even had to resurrect a dead dragon to help us to our final destination.
How about the fastest runner in the land challenges us to a race across several different areas. If we can beat him, we win the prize at the end. No killing. No fetching. We run as fast as we can through agro beasts biting us on our tails trying to keep us from the finish line, trying to win the race.
How about a dungeon splits into two separate tunnels. Once you pick a direction, the gates close behind us and the only way through the dungeon is to have someone in the other tunnel to open the secret passage. So we split the party into 2 groups and follow the 2 tunnels simultaneously. No problem, we can fight through this. WAIT!! What's this? A puzzle? We have to solve puzzles to open the gate for the OTHER half of the party to continue so they can get to the next puzzle to open the way for us to continue and so on until the final room where there should be... UH OH, during our sojourn through the tunnels, an army has been amassing to await our entrance. (BTW, this quest/zone was the most fun I've ever had in any MMO in over 10 years of MMO's)
I could go on, but these types of quest DO exist. They are just not the majority of quests. There are tons of quests I've done in MMO's that I just went OMG, and I'm not easy to impress. While the best quests I've had were PnP, there ARE great quests in MMO's.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
One of the things I notice about the quests, is the quest giver is always standing around in some innoculous place waiting to be approached by the player(s). What ever happened to the tavern scene? Why not have a player go into a tavern, and get approached by an NPC with a random quest? Or a group go into a tavern and get appraoched to do a group quest? Why are all the NPC's in the games so passive, they want something done for them, but are to damn lazy to move their ass over to a PC and ask for a favor?
Walk into a village after an orc raid and have one of the militia approach you asking you to hunt down the marauders and return the captives. It's kind of like aggro the quest giver, get within a certain radius and they approach you. Makes a more dynamic world when the NPCs appraoch you to interact.
Game designers seem to think it adds difficulty to a game if the quest givers are both passive, and hidden, so the players have to burn up more time looking for something to do. It's not difficult, it's just another friggin time sink. Why do developers seem to think that we only play these games to waste inordinate amounts of our free time?
Can you give me some examples or titles? I have been interested in REAL rpg's that are amazing, despite their graphical nature. I realized that graphics really don't matter very much when I made the "LOTR vs. Vanguard" graphics thread. I then turned my eyes to real gameplay instead of eye candy. Any suggestions would be nice.
Here is what I suggest you do. Go out and get Morrowind on NWN and use their editors to try and write your quest for those games. Make you content available to the public so you can get their response, then fix the bugs & respond to their input.
Once the quest works for everyone isn’t too easy for some characters while being impossible for others and is polished up and ready to go find out how long it takes people to complete it and compare that to how long it took you to write it.
Now factor in that networking effects mean that every additional factor that can come into play increases complexity and development time exponentially. Thus writing that same quest in a persistent world with thousands of players dozens of classes and hundreds or thousands of class combinations could easily take 10X or even 100X as long.
Zones like Nek castle and Unrest in EQ2 do exactly the type of scripted content you are talking about (and have more interesting stories). These took teams of developers working for months on end to get them right, and the result is 4-6 hours of content. At that rate you would need hundred, perhaps thousands of developers working on nothing but scripted content.
The kicker is that a lot of this scripted content would be similar due to the restrictions of the game engine and people would get bored with them and complain they were too linear.
A final thought that you should consider is that the quest you want could easily fit into many games as a player created role play event without any developer involvement at all. No computer script is ever going to match the richness and creativity of real human interaction, so if you really want that type of quest role playing it is the way to go.
Its a real adventure, but it is also a SINGLE PLAYER adventure. MMORPG developers have to create content for thousands of people all playing at the same time.
Gameloading, as always, I applaud you.
OP- You want quests like that in an MMO? Ok, well the 200 orcs or 4 really tough mobs were already killed by a high level guild, the stream you float down is bugged so you end up getting stuck under a rock and drowning. The cottage you break into already had the lock picked by a rogue and there are now 13 other players camping the site, waiting for the ghost to spawn. The inn run by all women as overcrowded with horny 13-14 year old boys spamming /emotes and making lewd comment in the chat channel. The items you thought were 'stolen' really just bugged out and you have to abandon the quest and start it all over from the beginning.
If you want questing with more "substance" you get games like DDO and GW, where everything is instanced and besides the towns/meeting areas, the game feels dead and empty BECAUSE it's all instanced.
just my 2 cents... I mean, we all would love to see more varied and dynamic quests and content in MMO's, but there are technical and practical limitations, hence why EVERY MMO has the same "kill 10 rats and collect Y spleens" quests.
OP- You want quests like that in an MMO? Ok, well the 200 orcs or 4 really tough mobs were already killed by a high level guild, the stream you float down is bugged so you end up getting stuck under a rock and drowning. The cottage you break into already had the lock picked by a rogue and there are now 13 other players camping the site, waiting for the ghost to spawn. The inn run by all women as overcrowded with horny 13-14 year old boys spamming /emotes and making lewd comment in the chat channel. The items you thought were 'stolen' really just bugged out and you have to abandon the quest and start it all over from the beginning. If you want questing with more "substance" you get games like DDO and GW, where everything is instanced and besides the towns/meeting areas, the game feels dead and empty BECAUSE it's all instanced. just my 2 cents... I mean, we all would love to see more varied and dynamic quests and content in MMO's, but there are technical and practical limitations, hence why EVERY MMO has the same "kill 10 rats and collect Y spleens" quests.
*sigh* Nothing is impossible, how can you not understand that? Now to show you that your "flaws" aren't flaws at all, they're just poor attempts to say "Impossible!" because you lack the ambition and creativity to think otherwise. Next time, please try to find counter-measures TO YOUR OWN IDEAS. If you think "What if a high level guild killed the mobs?" Then why don't you, FIRST, before you post, think of practical counter-measures that would prove your idea unworthy to be posted. That way it saves me the time of explaining to you why your flaw isn't a flaw at all, but a poorly thought out attempt to poke holes in an otherwise amazing idea.
1) No, the mobs can't be killed by a high level guild. Why? Because they never existed in the game world other than perhaps models (if that.) It's simply a message on what is coming, or a more complex models in the distance. The only things you are able to actually fight are the spawned orcs that are a result of wasting too much time in one place.
2) Bugs are not a flaw at all. Bugs are always worked out and fixed. Saying "What if the quest is bugged?" is as much a flaw in game concept as "What if the player's power goes out because of a storm?"
3) First, the ghost never was an NPC you could fight, it was a simple roleplaying event for humor/story/a quest intro. Second, even if it was attackable, no players would waste their time camping a ghost for no reason other than to flaw my quest concept. This is yet another poor attempt at creating a flaw that doesn't exist. Players wouldn't camp the ghost, nor would the ghost be attackable or campable. The ghost also wouldn't "spawn", it would appear as a result of a trigger in your quest, providing for dialogue. EVEN IF somehow players camped the cabin FOR NO REASON and the Ghost was attackable, the simple fix of "Only you can attack the ghost" is a simple counter-measure for that. Despite the fact your scenario is completely illogical that players would camp a ghost that they don't know about, that isn't attackable, and for no reason at all (no loot, no xp, NOTHING)
4) The women in the Inn are NPC's. First, that scenario will never happen and is illogical. Second, if you want to roleplay without people spamming, you turn off /ooc or the global chat. If they persist anyways, that's why server rules and GM's are made, to ban such players. The problem you stated isn't a scenario that would ever happen, BUT EVEN IF IT DID, it would only to the extent it happens in other MMO's, which isn't a flaw in the game concept at all. It's simply a flaw in the player for not using /ignore, and MMO's in general.
5) Once again, bugs aren't a flaw in a quest or game concept. Bugs are bugs, simply that. Whether a game is buggy or not has absolutely nothing to do with the game concept or quests, and everything to do with the developers fixing bugs in beta. (Look at Vanguard beta and release as opposed to LOTR beta) Bugs are not a flaw in game concept.
6) Every MMO has the same dull repetitive "Kill 10 beetles" quests because the developers just want to cash in because of money, because they're lazy, and because they're lacking any creativity. It is not because there are "practical limitations" to such ideas. In no way shape or form are these ideas impossible, and they are easily practical and such a game could be done just the same as any other MMO is done.
Please, if you are going to poke flaws in my quest ideas, at least use logical scenarios and keep in mind that just because the quest is full of choices and variety, you can't just do ANYTHING you want. (I.e. camp a ghost for no reason and attack it, despite the fact it's not even an NPC, it's just a story event animation.)
None of those are flaws. You simply made up your own rules, ignored practical counter-measures to problems that don't exist, and said "What if there are bugs?" None of those are sensical, logical, or worthy of being called a problem or flaw. I would say "Try again" but your second attempt will probably be just as bad.
It wasn't until I was finished that I realized responding to such horrible attempts to find flaws in an otherwise perfect system is a complete waste of my time.
It also would have been easier just to respond saying this.
Comments
I know many people that come to these forums are very knowledgable about the games because if you come to places like this, there's a pretty good chance that you have sought information elsewhere on the net. Information that has made your characters more powerful and better able to compete or complete the hardest of the challenges your game has to offer. The problem is, the vast majority of MMO players do not come to the internet for any kind of supplemental information so when they run into a quest in a game that appears to be too hard, they immediately give up if the first few people they ask in game can't help them. Anything that appears to be foreign to them could also appear to be difficult and many players just don't have the time or the will power to see things through to the end. A quest where a DM type message appears to guide the story along could have disasterous consequences if one of players didn't respond in time or was incapable of 'thinking on their feet'. While these things you were talking about seem relatively simple to many people here, what about the rest of the players?
If you think I am taking a relatively low look at the general player base in MMO's out there, how many times have you had to answer the absolute most basic questions for people in game? When I started playing WoW, I made an undead rogue. 5 or 10 minutes into my experience with the game I started seeing the dumbest questions imaginable. As you leave the starter area there is a road leading to a small village. One of the very first things you come across is the Inn. And yet I heard many people asking where is the #$%! ing Inn? Dammit! Been running around for 20 minutes and can't find the Inn! Can someone please help? Actually had 1 guy ask me where it was while standing directly in front of it. Game companies understand that if they don't cater to the LCD, they won't get nearly as many subscribers as they would following a tired, bland formula that other's have used to find success. Those same kinds of people that would complain about those kinds of things are the same kinds of people that end up being very vocal decriers of the game so game companies have to make sure they are just as satisfied as everyone else.
EQ2 does this fairly well, due to their instancing they can do some pretty interesting scripted events.
I very very much suggest you do the diety quest lines for your side of play, those were great fun.
They have really pushed questing forward and in no other game do you have such interesting ones, I suspect we will have to wait for AoC before we see something better.
Does not mean they do not have the kill this and that and run with this to over there.
But there are only so many variations you can have.
Kill = Combat
Travel = Explore
Fix = Craft
Thats basically it, variations and more or less of one or the other migth occur but in the end it boils down to this.
Your suggestion is not bad, but as someone said it can be done in a single player game, not so much in an MMO.
Content is all good but if noone bothers with it, it is just wasted space on a harddrive.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I think there are 3 ways that mmo developers are branching off the typical quest system in future mmos. First is the Age of Conan approach which seems to be very freedom oriented. The twitch combat and gruesome gameplay makes questing something you would do almost never. Second is Ragnarok Online 2's Dynamic Quest system. Simply put it allows you to actually make choices in quests. Instead of go collect 10 wolf skins, it will have choices along the way ot collecting those wolf skins that affects the outcome of the quest. Finally, there is the Guild Wars approach that I think Gods and Hero's is gonna follow to a degree.
I only have a few things to say.....
1) No wonder MMO developers are so uncreative and crappy, they must be just as close-minded as almost all of you. My quest I listed is incredibly easy on resources (Requiring 1 sound effect, a few voice/text messages, 1 triggered script, and one arrow animation, all the rest is already in the world (An inn, a cabin, and the GROUND.) The problems you talked about are not just easily worked around and easy to prevent, but they aren't really problems at all unless the developers are mentally disabled. An incredibly easy/lazy fix would be instancing or a form of light-instancing. If no-instances at all, it's STILL EASY to work around.
2) 30 groups doing the same quest? No, that doesn't happen even in World of Warcraft. A server can only handle so many people. These people differ in level ranges, and if zones are based on levels, then zones as well. This limits the amount of people down to only a handful of specific level-ranged and thus zone-ranged groups. The fact is that nearly no MMO can match the popularity of WoW, and thus have even FEWER groups (some MMO's have only 1-2 at any given time, IF THAT)... But even if as popular as WoW, the fact is that the quests like that are the "average quests." The fact is that more than one group starting an average (nothing special) random quest from a random npc IN THE SAME ZONE, AT THE SAME TIME, is incredibly rare. But EVEN IF that was a problem, it's STILL easy to fix. Why is it so easy? Because of C.R.E.A.T.I.V.I.T.Y. Something you close-minded people cannot grasp.
3) Make 10,000 quests like that? Wow, I could do that EASILY. I just made that quest out of the top of my head in a matter of minutes. You know how EASY it is to make a quest? Even if there's 100 "carry this from point A to point B." because of the factors of randomness, variety, enemies, events, and EVERYTHING, not only would you be able to make a HUGE variety of the same quest with COMPLETELY different feel to it, but it would be an easy task just for one person (given the amount of time to write all of it down.) It's a simple matter of a certain # of factors, which can all vary, combined with other factors to make not just an endless amount of the same type of quest, but ones that don't even feel similar. With just one "type" of quest, you can make hundreds, even thousands if you have enough variables. Then multiply that by the hundreds of "types" you can imagine and create. It's called C.R.E.A.T.I.V.I.T.Y.
4) Wow you are almost all incredibly close-minded.
5) It would be just as easy to implement this idea, as well as any singleplayer idea, into an MMO. Why? Because MMO's are the exact same thing as any other video game, except you have a lot of people. Put a few easy preventive measures and counter-measures in the game, and you have this easy as well as any other without any problems.
6) With a DM pushed Player-directed quest, it is incredibly easy to not just implement these quests, but to specifically place players in parts of the world that are made to be especially beautiful. (I.E. waterfalls, big valleys, mountain-tops, etc.)
7) Wow, you are almost all incredibly close-minded.
8) Anyone who says "It can't be done." is not just lacking any creativity, imagination, or ambition, but is also lacking an incredibly amount of intelligence. Impossible is hardly an obstacle, let alone something that isn't just possible, but relatively easy given today's standard scripts, triggers, and 3d sounds and environment.
9) Wow, you are almost all incredibly close-minded.
If such an inn were to be destroy, the fact is that the entire quest is still alive.
First, the orcs were lost behind you and couldnt' "catch you" in the first place, so there wouldn't be any "Burning of the inn."
The point is that you get away. There is no "wilderness" skill.
Second, let's say there is and the orcs burn down the inn. Then from then on the Inn is burnt down. Any player who does the same quest will have the EXACT same options as you
1) Tent in the wilderness
2) Log Cabin
3) Inn
The only difference is that what they do it, the inn will have been burnt mostly (not completely destroyed; they happen to find one or two rooms left that although charred, are still good enough to protect from the weather) and there won't be npc's, lively music, bar noise, etc.
After X amount of time, said inn is rebuild. Randomized named npc's (perhaps always with the same last name) rebuild the Inn and the Inn is once again alive.
You could do this to EVERYTHING in the game world. Have a "Destroyed" version and a "Alive" version. The world is rebuilt, people get away, sons grow into manhood and take over the dead father's business, etc. etc.
The fact remains though that the INN has absolutely nothing to do with the main quest. It's a CHOICE. Even if it were COMPLETELY destroyed, you would still have two options to use the Log Cabin or use the tents. This wouldn't stop the other people from doing the same quest, nor would it change ANYTHING other than the fact you can't use the 3rd option OR the 3rd option is a little bit different.
But this is exactly it. Say there's a 20% chance the orcs catch up to you and burn the inn down. This creates even MORE variety.
1) Side quests. Instead of Inn-people stealing your stuff, orcs are attacking. You can't fight them all (it's an army), but you have the options to
a) Escort some people out alive
b) Run for your own lives, screw anyone else
c) Fight off some orcs to rescue "the children"
In the end of all three results, as long as you don't moronically try to take on the entire army, between the burning, the attacking/pillaging/carnage, you manage to get away.
If you choose to run away alone, nothing happens but your own safety. Save a person? There's a certain % chance you get a reward of X to Y gold. Also the person you 'rescue' runs off and disappears, and thus when the Inn is "rebuilt" the same named NPC comes back to be tavern keeper, etc. while the ones not saved come back from "Billy Thompson" to his son/brother randomized name "Bob Thompson."
You see how this works? Easily done. Why? Because all you're doing is
1) One scripted event that says "If player is on X quest, then trigger "on-fire graphics and quest"
2) (Sleep animation, black out and back in, inn is now burning and ambience noise of screams/flames.)
3) Simple side-quest. Talk to NPC, simple "HELP! Lead me out of here!" Yes or No accept. Yes they follow you. If (NPC) gets to X to Y location (safe location) then NPC says "Thank you so much!" Randomized reward, and NPC runs off and "disappears"
4) The longer you stay, the tougher and the more orcs appear. This is as simple as Gods & Heroes greek reinforcements on a timed basis.
5) All other NPC's are as simple as this. A simple "HELP!" followed by a "YES OR NO" acceptance to help or not, which results in a /follow or not.
6) Script that says after X time, Inn goes from "on-fire" graphics to "burnt graphics".
7) Script that says after X time in "burnt-graphics" trigger "Living Inn"
8) Script that says "If NPC rescued then "Same Name." If NPC not rescued, then 20% chance for "Random Name".
That's like what, a few scripts and 3 graphical triggers, and 2 quest triggers with an incredibly easy "Follow Player" NPC rescue script?
If two groups happen to do this same quest at the same time, then one will trigger it before the other. This results in the late second group "Walking towards a Inn, then see it catch fire." or "Talking in bar, then it turns to the raid."
The second group has all of the SAME options. Perhaps they are still in need of rest though if they didn't get to sleep, so AFTER they escape/rescue NPC's, they must tent or use the log cabin.
The fact is, with a few amount of scripts and triggers, along with a few small counter-measures (such as the Inn can't catch on fire twice) you can make an entire game-world of creative quests with fun side-quests AND a changing world.
Don't say anything is impossible, because these things are NOT impossible. Given the right view, scripts, and counter-measures, it can work.
No, you're close-minded because you think it can't be done. B would also be the only case, except for the fact that THEY ARE NOT HEAVILY SCRIPTED.
It isn't very hard to have a script that says
"If Player is on "Quest 2" then activate "Side-Quest 1" which triggers the script to have the DM say "Orcs are coming after you and there are too many, RUN TO THE FOREST!" and maybe a trigger that shows some orc models walking towards you.)
Once you step into the forest, it triggers "If Player activated "Side-Quest 1" then activate "Side-Quest 1a" which triggers the DM saying "The only way out is the river, SWIM!"
Once you swim down current (perhaps the current takes you away, forcing you to only go downstream) and hit a certain spot/area, "If Player activated "Side Quest 1a" then activate "Side-Quest 1b" which the DM says "You feel tired and need to rest. You see a log cabin, your map shows an Inn, or you can rest." Add Debuff 1.
If player Rests (Using an Inn, Tent, Bed, etc. ALWAYS activates "Rest" like a faster heal, sleep animation, etc.) then remove Debuff 1. Trigger DM, "You feel rested and can now continue your journey to the town."
You press "M" to look at your map, and adventure to the town, regardless of any side-quests or anything else. Maybe there's more to the quest, maybe not.
Now, if they do not go into the forest, or if they dont travel the river (which is the only means of escape) then the orcs just come in stronger and stronger or larger and larger swarms until the player 1) Runs away into the forest and then river like the DM directed, or 2) Dies because the orcs are an army and you can't beat an army.
That is not very much scripting, and it's ESPECIALLY not "heavy scripting"
It's very simple actually, just triggers and "IF THEN ELSE"
I am not a major programmer, but I do know how triggers and "IF THEN ELSE" statements work.
It is far from impossible like a close-minded person would say.
And in an MMO world? Almost as easy as a singleplayer world. Definitely not harder, just not as easy.
All you would need is a certain area (Say 10x10 square) that if stepped on by the player, it triggers
IF player is on Quest 1, THEN activate Side-Quest 1a, ELSE do nothing. (Of course the ELSE doesn't need to be there, but I wanted to include it because it's also a part of the simplistic code.)
This is easy scripting. If the player is on the quest, the quest happens and the fun begins. If not, then nothing happens.
Also, to direct them.
After activating the trigger...
IF player waits for "5 Minutes" (without swimming down the river trigger script) THEN spawn "Ten lvl 10 Orcs"
This forces the player to eventually say "We can't hold them off any longer, RETREAT!"
This allows the player to fight the orcs until they can't anymore, or perhaps they actually WIN against the orcs and thus can continue to travel to the town.
Such events can happen no matter where they step. Such as
IF Player is not in combat, and IF player is in [the zone that is halfway to the destination] THEN activate "Bandits attack" script.
Such events can be things like attacks from creatures, attacks from the enemy who wants the magical item you are carrying, an overwhelming attack that forces you to change your directions (but still allows you to escape eventually) to whatever you want.
You could even include scripts such as randomized encounters that can not just be certain creatures, BUT ALSO things like traveling merchants (with really good deals or special items), or other unique things.
What is cooler than a set of items that can ONLY BE BOUGHT from traveling merchants who are RANDOM in encounters. Perhaps have an INCREDIBLY RARE chance (like 0.01% or lower) where a traveler comes by and teaches you a special skill/ability, or gives you a rare item, or sells you an incredibly rare item, etc.
Special RANDOM encounters can easily be activated by simple IF THEN statements.
I'm all for creativity in quests, but im going to take this as a programmers point of view because its not all simple as just write a script when it comes to MMOs the server actually has to know what to send back and forth and the quests DO Have to be tested and tested quickly. Quests with all sorts of extra animations and cut scenes can take longer to ensure they work even if they are really cool and immersive.
The hardest choice as a developer (due to time to create and test and make sure this content works) is do we want alot of simple quests that are fairly easy to implement / test and a few really good detailed quests that might take more time so that the players have plenty of content and a few surprises along the way OR do you want less content thats more detailed and more 'creative'. It all sounds easy yea just write a script and go but this isnt' Neverwinter Nights these are MMOs.
Everytime they create something new they have to create and test packets, then test it internally, then test it on the test servers. I mean it sounds way cool to have these lil mini quick cut scenes but I could see where a server that has several thousand people on it might choke on busy hours with telling the client hey play this cut scene plus should the server flag the player as non attackable? How does an NPC read that flag? Can it read that flag? The more flags and checks you put on something the slower it gets. All this comes into account when they start designing quests, usually by the time they design quests the servers and clients are built and they're restricted to the limitations of the packets unless they add to it which then can cause all sorts of other issues.
Granted there is an over abundance of go kill X number of mobs in alot of games, but they still have quests that can be rather funny or entertaining. Dynamic quests that change on the player's choice are rare because they could have tons of cases they have to program around like what happens if they do this or if they do this. As cool as dynamic quests would be...I could see they'd be a huge hassle on the server for everyone.
OP you can flame away and say im making up excuses but I am a programmer...I see the hell that adding ONE thing to a program can do it even if it appears really simple.
I love creative quests but sometimes I'd prefer the game to just work over having cool quests (although I admit I wish Wow had less Kill X number of Mob quests or Deliver this item quests and something a tad more dynamic)
I may of rambled a bit its late and the caffeine is wearing off!
btw IF statements are actually really slow. I personaly hate using them and try not to unless there is no other way to check a case.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Have you seen any of the quests in LOTR?
They are practically the exact same thing in terms of animations, cut scenes, immovable players as the scenes take place, etc. etc.
A year ago if you told me this, I'd believe you. You tell me this now though, with quests coming out from newer MMO's, quests I've already seen in game, and quests that are highly animated, with text, graphics, and cut scenes in LOTR, well, I don't believe you at all.
From a programmers stand point making any game is probably a difficult task. Making these quests in relation to regular difficulty of making a game/quests, easy.
The fact is that it is completely possible. Not just because it is a very simple concept with very little scripting, but also because other MMO's have already made a step in this direction.
You can't tell me that you can't have a lot of animations when games today already do a lot of animations. Actually I probably got a lot of inspiration from LOTR's cut-scene quests and animations.
To say it's impossible is to be close minded. To say it's too difficult is to lack ambition. To say there's too many flaws is to lack creativity. To completely scoff at the idea is just laziness and ignorance.
I would rather have 10 quests that are AMAZING then to have 100 quests that suck.
Quality over quantity. With a randomized variable system, it would NOT be an overwhelming task to have creative quests, along with a variety of quests.
With randomized variables, you make about one complex quest which results in hundreds of quests (the more variables, the more variety.) Do it just right, and you have yourself an amazingly well-done quest system and video game.
You're a programmer, and I'm sure you know how bad it is when you just want to add ONE thing to a program. But MMO's are not made be one guy. They are made by a team over the process of YEARS. This can be done, and will eventually happen, even if 100 years into the future.
Would you prefer creative quests, or the same dull uncreative quests FOREVER?
Eventually people will get bored of MMO's lame "Kill X beetles" quests and it'll stop making money. That's when things will rather change, or MMO's will die. I prefer the change part, not the die part.
They are in the lower budget games that dont look good graphically that people on this forum SHIT on every day.
Poeple vote with their wallet. Apparently people like doing shitty quests ala WOW or else they would be playing other games with REAL quest systems.
Can you give me some examples or titles?
I have been interested in REAL rpg's that are amazing, despite their graphical nature.
I realized that graphics really don't matter very much when I made the "LOTR vs. Vanguard" graphics thread. I then turned my eyes to real gameplay instead of eye candy.
Any suggestions would be nice.
The quests you're talking about already exist. They may be the minority of thousands of Kill X and Get Y quests that exist in MMO's, but they do exist.
How about, we're walking along and a NPC flags us down and exclaims that his master is being attacked by a nasty drakota. We run ahead and run into the temple and sure enough, a huge drakota, with friends, is in fact menacing a poor old sage standing on a small walkway over a lava pit. We kill the drakota and save the old sage from the powerful drakota and he thanks us by offering a quest. The rest of the story ends up in 2 powerful forces vying for control of the land. We even had to resurrect a dead dragon to help us to our final destination.
How about the fastest runner in the land challenges us to a race across several different areas. If we can beat him, we win the prize at the end. No killing. No fetching. We run as fast as we can through agro beasts biting us on our tails trying to keep us from the finish line, trying to win the race.
How about a dungeon splits into two separate tunnels. Once you pick a direction, the gates close behind us and the only way through the dungeon is to have someone in the other tunnel to open the secret passage. So we split the party into 2 groups and follow the 2 tunnels simultaneously. No problem, we can fight through this. WAIT!! What's this? A puzzle? We have to solve puzzles to open the gate for the OTHER half of the party to continue so they can get to the next puzzle to open the way for us to continue and so on until the final room where there should be... UH OH, during our sojourn through the tunnels, an army has been amassing to await our entrance. (BTW, this quest/zone was the most fun I've ever had in any MMO in over 10 years of MMO's)
I could go on, but these types of quest DO exist. They are just not the majority of quests. There are tons of quests I've done in MMO's that I just went OMG, and I'm not easy to impress. While the best quests I've had were PnP, there ARE great quests in MMO's.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
One of the things I notice about the quests, is the quest giver is always standing around in some innoculous place waiting to be approached by the player(s). What ever happened to the tavern scene? Why not have a player go into a tavern, and get approached by an NPC with a random quest? Or a group go into a tavern and get appraoched to do a group quest? Why are all the NPC's in the games so passive, they want something done for them, but are to damn lazy to move their ass over to a PC and ask for a favor?
Walk into a village after an orc raid and have one of the militia approach you asking you to hunt down the marauders and return the captives. It's kind of like aggro the quest giver, get within a certain radius and they approach you. Makes a more dynamic world when the NPCs appraoch you to interact.
Game designers seem to think it adds difficulty to a game if the quest givers are both passive, and hidden, so the players have to burn up more time looking for something to do. It's not difficult, it's just another friggin time sink. Why do developers seem to think that we only play these games to waste inordinate amounts of our free time?
Gameloading, as always, I applaud you.
OP- You want quests like that in an MMO? Ok, well the 200 orcs or 4 really tough mobs were already killed by a high level guild, the stream you float down is bugged so you end up getting stuck under a rock and drowning. The cottage you break into already had the lock picked by a rogue and there are now 13 other players camping the site, waiting for the ghost to spawn. The inn run by all women as overcrowded with horny 13-14 year old boys spamming /emotes and making lewd comment in the chat channel. The items you thought were 'stolen' really just bugged out and you have to abandon the quest and start it all over from the beginning.
If you want questing with more "substance" you get games like DDO and GW, where everything is instanced and besides the towns/meeting areas, the game feels dead and empty BECAUSE it's all instanced.
just my 2 cents... I mean, we all would love to see more varied and dynamic quests and content in MMO's, but there are technical and practical limitations, hence why EVERY MMO has the same "kill 10 rats and collect Y spleens" quests.
*sigh* Nothing is impossible, how can you not understand that? Now to show you that your "flaws" aren't flaws at all, they're just poor attempts to say "Impossible!" because you lack the ambition and creativity to think otherwise. Next time, please try to find counter-measures TO YOUR OWN IDEAS. If you think "What if a high level guild killed the mobs?" Then why don't you, FIRST, before you post, think of practical counter-measures that would prove your idea unworthy to be posted. That way it saves me the time of explaining to you why your flaw isn't a flaw at all, but a poorly thought out attempt to poke holes in an otherwise amazing idea.
1) No, the mobs can't be killed by a high level guild. Why? Because they never existed in the game world other than perhaps models (if that.) It's simply a message on what is coming, or a more complex models in the distance. The only things you are able to actually fight are the spawned orcs that are a result of wasting too much time in one place.
2) Bugs are not a flaw at all. Bugs are always worked out and fixed. Saying "What if the quest is bugged?" is as much a flaw in game concept as "What if the player's power goes out because of a storm?"
3) First, the ghost never was an NPC you could fight, it was a simple roleplaying event for humor/story/a quest intro. Second, even if it was attackable, no players would waste their time camping a ghost for no reason other than to flaw my quest concept. This is yet another poor attempt at creating a flaw that doesn't exist. Players wouldn't camp the ghost, nor would the ghost be attackable or campable. The ghost also wouldn't "spawn", it would appear as a result of a trigger in your quest, providing for dialogue. EVEN IF somehow players camped the cabin FOR NO REASON and the Ghost was attackable, the simple fix of "Only you can attack the ghost" is a simple counter-measure for that. Despite the fact your scenario is completely illogical that players would camp a ghost that they don't know about, that isn't attackable, and for no reason at all (no loot, no xp, NOTHING)
4) The women in the Inn are NPC's. First, that scenario will never happen and is illogical. Second, if you want to roleplay without people spamming, you turn off /ooc or the global chat. If they persist anyways, that's why server rules and GM's are made, to ban such players. The problem you stated isn't a scenario that would ever happen, BUT EVEN IF IT DID, it would only to the extent it happens in other MMO's, which isn't a flaw in the game concept at all. It's simply a flaw in the player for not using /ignore, and MMO's in general.
5) Once again, bugs aren't a flaw in a quest or game concept. Bugs are bugs, simply that. Whether a game is buggy or not has absolutely nothing to do with the game concept or quests, and everything to do with the developers fixing bugs in beta. (Look at Vanguard beta and release as opposed to LOTR beta) Bugs are not a flaw in game concept.
6) Every MMO has the same dull repetitive "Kill 10 beetles" quests because the developers just want to cash in because of money, because they're lazy, and because they're lacking any creativity. It is not because there are "practical limitations" to such ideas. In no way shape or form are these ideas impossible, and they are easily practical and such a game could be done just the same as any other MMO is done.
Please, if you are going to poke flaws in my quest ideas, at least use logical scenarios and keep in mind that just because the quest is full of choices and variety, you can't just do ANYTHING you want. (I.e. camp a ghost for no reason and attack it, despite the fact it's not even an NPC, it's just a story event animation.)
None of those are flaws. You simply made up your own rules, ignored practical counter-measures to problems that don't exist, and said "What if there are bugs?" None of those are sensical, logical, or worthy of being called a problem or flaw. I would say "Try again" but your second attempt will probably be just as bad.
It wasn't until I was finished that I realized responding to such horrible attempts to find flaws in an otherwise perfect system is a complete waste of my time.
It also would have been easier just to respond saying this.
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2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4
2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4 2+2=4