This is actually a very interesting discussion. While I obviously have my preference, I can see the other side's point of view as well.
Let me say this. If I kill 100 wolves, then atleast 90% of the time, I would prefer that the game gives me logical loot such as wolf fur, meat, teeth, claws and whatever. A randomness that might make a wolf drop a dagger of +3 damage might be cool as hell and spark more excitement into the role of killing any mob. Almost like the lottery. However, what is pretty lame is when almost every single wolf you kill, no matter where it is drops insanely silly loot.
I also very much agree with the person who stated that it was also kinda frustrating or even lame that if you kill 100 bandits with armor and weapons that none of them will drop the armor or weapon that you see on their body. Sheesh, if I kill a giant troll with a gigantic axe, I alteast want some chance of receiving that gigantic axe he was hitting me with as the prize when I loot his corpse.
Anyhow, I want to thank EVERYONE who is contributing to this conversation thus far for refraining from the typical flame and rant posts. It makes a thread so much more interesting to read and think about without all the fire burning and name calling.
Have you ever really tried to slay a wolf with a broadsword? In a world, where men wield fireballs in their hands and heal wounds instantly, cant some insane sorcere go around and summon weird things inside the body of a wolf?
Go play realistiv games, its a fantasy game.. Live with it..
Maybe that wolf was near its den and inside that den is the remains of another hapless victim who happens to be wearing the armor.
It’s not up to the author to feed you every last detail. At some point you have to engage the world and make it your own, but if they try and feed you every last detail you will simply get caught up in minutia and that gets very boring.
I disagree, Random things like that are what makes the game fun.
No, it's just devs being lazy and using random drop generators without taking into account immersion. Not at all, the lack of immersion when it comes to drop like that is what makes the game fun for me. No way i would expect a golden vest from a wolf. Keep on sipping that koolaid (actually it was flavor aid )
I am not one to buy the famous MMO line:
"The only limit is your imagination."
Put it in the game the right way so we don't have to argue about things as minimal as this...
LOTR:O, why would they rehash their whole system because of this very issue if they thought players could use their imagination to fill in the blanks? Turbine is striving to make every detail as close as possible, I don't see why other games can't do it as well.
It's one thing if you are playing in a game world where you can walk upside down on the roofs of buildings and walls, but it's another if you are playing in a game world that is, for the most part, realistic.
The original EQ had multiple armor sizes for the races, small for dwarfs and gnomes, medium for human types, and large for ogres, trolls and barbarians. Monks wore only a few things and became easily encumbered.
I believe that the reason these games no longer house roleplayers as they once did is because now everyone is equal, everything is the same, the game play is dumbed down and everyone has the size abilities and armor. There's no more uniqueness, there's no sense that you are really in the game world, especially when you can run past a quest and that you've done and the damn NPC is still crying for help.
That realism, that sense that everything as a positive and negative consequence helps to fuel roleplaying. These games have as of late removed all the evils and made it too easy. Recall humans in EQ not being able to see properly? Look at how much that alone added to the game play... you can light sources, you could roleplay much more easily with others, you stayed in doors at night, you'd hang out at the pub etc.
We need these things in order to keep us grounded if we want to have any shred of roleplayers in these games. It can't all be imagination, there needs to be some level of coherency in order to create a medium for those that wish to partake. This realism IMHO gives us the catalyst to roleplay. Without it we are perfect avatars without weakness, we are no longer roleplaying, we're playing with barbie and ken in the bathtub, and the water is getting cold.
Personally I like to grind monsters nonstop to advance my character. It takes a lot of time and skill to increase my level, and if I am not rewarded with magical items from killing she-bears and turtles I wouldn't bother playing. How boring would a game be if monsters didn't drop magical loot? Why would anyone want it to be realistic MMORPG? That just doesn't make any sense. Obviously there is nothing else to do in a MMORPG but kill monsters and collect loot, so why dumb it down?
A little offtopic, but anyone else looking forward to the new MMORPGs? I can' t wait to play them, and post on their forums about how they got it all wrong and need to decrease exp, take out quests, take out PvP, add more dungeons, increase spawns, make grouping mandatory, and increase the level cap. I don't know about you, but having nearly all MMORPGs revolve around killing monsters and collecting loot isn't enough for me, I want them all to be equally one dimensional and boring.
Personally I like to grind monsters nonstop to advance my character. It takes a lot of time and skill to increase my level, and if I am not rewarded with magical items from killing she-bears and turtles I wouldn't bother playing. How boring would a game be if monsters didn't drop magical loot? Why would anyone want it to be realistic MMORPG? That just doesn't make any sense. Obviously there is nothing else to do in a MMORPG but kill monsters and collect loot, so why dumb it down?
A little offtopic, but anyone else looking forward to the new MMORPGs? I can' t wait to play them, and post on their forums about how they got it all wrong and need to decrease exp, take out quests, take out PvP, add more dungeons, increase spawns, make grouping mandatory, and increase the level cap. I don't know about you, but having nearly all MMORPGs revolve around killing monsters and collecting loot isn't enough for me, I want them all to be equally one dimensional and boring.
Just because we play a fictional game of the fantasy genre (or sci-fi, etc.), it doesn't mean that all common sense should be thrown out the window. The rules of our normal reality, as mentioned by others, are already discarded when we fight dragons and aliens but that doesn't mean that ALL rules have to go. Much like a movie, you can bend a story's reality pretty far and establish rules like magic and mutation without seeming absurd in context of that world. Consider the "Blair Witch Project" -- if you allow yourself to be immersed into the story, it's actually quite good. Then take "True Lies" --Ahnold is a super spy with l337 skills but he doesn't ride his pony off the rooftop. Very reasonbale. The problem is in the last 5 minutes he's piloting a harrier, catching his daugter on a wing and thwarting the villain -- that broke the reality for me.
The same can be said for games -- a non sequitur will break immersion and the fact is it is entirely avoidable with proper itemization.
Maybe that wolf was near its den and inside that den is the remains of another hapless victim who happens to be wearing the armor.
It’s not up to the author to feed you every last detail. At some point you have to engage the world and make it your own, but if they try and feed you every last detail you will simply get caught up in minutia and that gets very boring.
And maybe magic golden butterflys randomly fly up creature's asses to craft random items inside of them!
Coincidences like in the above quote only take you so far, when every last creature you kill "happened" to have swallowed a bag of gold, and "happen" to drop something not at all associated with them, the last thing in sight is realism.
I'm sorry, but there is no way whatsoever to justify the kind of drop tables you get in most MMORPGs within the bounds of the storyline, even if some message pops up every time about finding a nearby stash. The author may not have to hand feed you all the details, but there is something called "consistancy" that in most other story related applications is highly valued.
Now, I am also perfectly aware that many gamers don't give an ass diving butterfly for the storyline, but I personally do.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Then again the carrot needs to be there, carrot is largely what these games are about.
I just wish they would sort it differently, surely a wolf or any predator really can drop say jewelry and still be within the boundries of believable, but a full plate?
I never ask for realism in these games, I do however ask for it to be believable.
No one would stand for a Tie Figther screaming down on Freeport in EQ2.
Wielding a a gatling gun in DDO would be silly.
I would not mind one in the Sims though,
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you've been playing mmos for any amount of time, then you've almost certainly came across a point in an mmo where you have slayed a normal earth-like creature such as a wolf or a grass snake and received something insanely odd like a magical sword or a heavy piece of plate armor as loot. Obviously, this is something that makes little sense in our real world. If you kill a rabbit, you might find some rabbit fur, rabbit paws, and a little meat. I still long for the day when I go hunting up in the hills in our real world and shoot a buck, walk to its remains to find that it has dropped some golden sword of magical slaying powers that I can take back to town and pawn in any shop for $7,000. For me, this style of loot is ridiculous and unrealistic and it ruins my immersion factor to quite an extent. Look, I understand that the virtual worlds in which we play are totally unrealistic anyhow just in the sense that we can fight dragons and shoot devastating fireballs and all that. However the thing is.. is that IF we can play in some magical world and be a great sorcerer, most of these games do seem to keep some sense of realism. Water still flows down hill in streams. Falling off of high cliffs can likely still damage our health big time if not kill us. A wolf is surely going to be strong enough in the game to easily slay a chicken. Even though we play in a fantasy realm in these worlds, we sort of expect some common links of realism to the real world that we know and live in here. And when we slay a grass snake in the game, and find that it is carrying items like plate armor and wooden shields that are like 50 times bigger and heavier then the damn snake itself, it means the a lot of the immersion in that fantasy world is damaged. All I ask is that common earth-like creatures don't carry stupid loot that doesn't make an ounce of sense. I want those swords and armor loots to come off of humanoids, dragons, goblins and at least if it is an earth-like creature, be one that has magical powers or a very high IQ where it makes some kind of logical sense that it might want something pretty and shiny for itself. At least that's the way I see it. Anyone else agree? Disagree?
- Zaxx
I hope you realize that you probably killed that wolf with a FIRE BALL. Of all the illogical things in the game world, getting a magic item from a wolf is probably one of the easier ones to explain. Also, you don't always get fur when you kill a wolf, or often have to kill several wolfs to get even one tooth.
It is all risk vs. reward. I'd rather have a chance to get a magic item off of any mob than just parts.
Also, there would be far more people slaying humanoids and demons for items if only humanoids and demons carried them. I like the chance to get items while killing any creature. It makes the reward for questing that much sweeter.
I hope you realize that you probably killed that wolf with a FIRE BALL. Of all the illogical things in the game world, getting a magic item from a wolf is probably one of the easier ones to explain. Also, you don't always get fur when you kill a wolf, or often have to kill several wolfs to get even one tooth.
It is all risk vs. reward. I'd rather have a chance to get a magic item off of any mob than just parts.
Also, there would be far more people slaying humanoids and demons for items if only humanoids and demons carried them. I like the chance to get items while killing any creature. It makes the reward for questing that much sweeter.
As long as people are content with this kind of mundane boring gameplay, developers will stay in their tiny box of ideas and make more of the same style games. Are you content with a game right now retrospectic? Or do you plan on jumping to another MMORPG that plays exactly the same as your last one?
In a way, I agree with Zax. In another way I don't.
To begin with, the current loot system isn't the product of lazy devs. This system was very deliberately planned. Before UO, there was this little game called Diablo. It was basically just a point and click fest with very limited interaction. Obviously, Roper was just basing the game on other traditional (rogue-like) RPGs of the time, but it probably didn't take too long before someone with a marketing degree figured out that the main pull of the game was the fact that the player was getting rewarded at a steady pace throughout the game. Either the player was gaining a level or gaining some new piece of unidentified loot that would turn out to be some uber weapon during the next section. Throw in a little behaviorist psychology and you have the formula for the standard MMORPG. Interestingly enough, this isn't to different from a room full of slot machines in Las Vegas.
The secret is in the ratio of reinforcement. Most MMORPGs work with several overlapping schedules of reinforcement. XP is a fixed interval system with diminishing returns terminating with complete extinction of reinforcement at the level cap. Loot is a compound schedule with a variable ratio ( the mean number or responses occurring between reinforcements averaged over the entire population for a given zone) and variable interval (reinforcement of the first response after a set amount of time, also averaged out among a zone's population). The loot system you suggest is actually an entirely different (as well as less impulsively compelling) kind of game.
What you're talking about is UO. Aside from a complete lack of personality, UO's major problem was it's interface. Directly related to that, the game's pacing was also a problem. While the cycle of gather, craft, and adventure served to break up some of the monotony, it also limited the players that just wanted to go kick some ass. You had to make THOUSANDS of skull caps, arrows, nails, etc, before you had enough skill and money to equip yourself for actual adventuring. The interface was clunky and the tasks themselves didn't really flow into eachother in a way that made you feel like you were accomplishing anything, even if you were. When planning UO's skill advancement curve, they totally forgot about people who had jobs and families competing for their attention. UO could have been a kind of combination of Diablo and The Sims (yes, I know the Sims came out later). Had UO's pacing been closer to either of those games, it would have been much more popular.
This all points to the main draw of MMORPGs being the collection of stuff. It's the manner in which this stuff is collected that makes the game compelling. I could argue either way. I could claim that business / factory style gameplay is totally boring and uninteresting, but the industry keeps cranking out "Tycoon" games like they're cheese sandwiches. I could argue that just spamming buttons and repeating the same action over and over again is about as exciting as watching golf on TV, but the industry also has a large number of people that love simple match three color games.
It's ultimately up to what the player prefers. There does seem to be an imbalance in the number of titles on one side (the slot machine side), but that doesn't mean that there are not games, either available or upcoming, that don't cater to the less traveled path.
Elder Scrolls Oblivion for 360 is a good game for ppl like you. Oblivion doesnt have any drops like that in the game although as your guy gains levels the monsters around you also get stronger which can be a bit frustrating.
I hope you realize that you probably killed that wolf with a FIRE BALL. Of all the illogical things in the game world, getting a magic item from a wolf is probably one of the easier ones to explain. Also, you don't always get fur when you kill a wolf, or often have to kill several wolfs to get even one tooth.
It is all risk vs. reward. I'd rather have a chance to get a magic item off of any mob than just parts.
Also, there would be far more people slaying humanoids and demons for items if only humanoids and demons carried them. I like the chance to get items while killing any creature. It makes the reward for questing that much sweeter.
As long as people are content with this kind of mundane boring gameplay, developers will stay in their tiny box of ideas and make more of the same style games. Are you content with a game right now retrospectic? Or do you plan on jumping to another MMORPG that plays exactly the same as your last one? Content with WoW? Yep. Content is a good word. I'm not disappointed, nor am I amazed and entralled 24/7.
Do I plan on jumping to another MMO blah blah? Warhammer is next on the list. The most recent display of "exactly the same" is Lord of the WoW Online, and I was not impressed. I wouldn't classify WoW as "mundane" in the slightest, though. Loot is part of the MMO draw, and it is going to be a factor, regardless. Keeping players online for multiple YEARS requires a system of gain and loss that feels real. I know I'll come back to play if I am ___cloth away from making _____, even if that just sets me back to 0 for the next piece of armor.
I still don't give a shit if a bear gives me a dagger, though. I loot it and disenchant it. Without that feature grinding bears would be so much less appealing. I'm looking for the next innovation that keeps my attention, just like anyone else.
Here's a question to ponder. What mechanic could an MMO develop to rival the allure of items? I know for a fact PvP isn't going to do it. If you make PvP itemless you turn it into an FPS. No one wants to pay per month for an FPS, just look at SoE's attempt.
All I ask is that common earth-like creatures don't carry stupid loot that doesn't make an ounce of sense. I want those swords and armor loots to come off of humanoids... Anyone else agree? Disagree?
- Zaxx
Originally posted by Gameloading
I disagree, Random things like that are what makes the game fun.
Content with WoW? Yep. Content is a good word. I'm not disappointed, nor am I amazed and entralled 24/7.
Do I plan on jumping to another MMO blah blah? Warhammer is next on the list. The most recent display of "exactly the same" is Lord of the WoW Online, and I was not impressed. I wouldn't classify WoW as "mundane" in the slightest, though. Loot is part of the MMO draw, and it is going to be a factor, regardless. Keeping players online for multiple YEARS requires a system of gain and loss that feels real. I know I'll come back to play if I am ___cloth away from making _____, even if that just sets me back to 0 for the next piece of armor.
I still don't give a shit if a bear gives me a dagger, though. I loot it and disenchant it. Without that feature grinding bears would be so much less appealing. I'm looking for the next innovation that keeps my attention, just like anyone else.
Here's a question to ponder. What mechanic could an MMO develop to rival the allure of items? I know for a fact PvP isn't going to do it. If you make PvP itemless you turn it into an FPS. No one wants to pay per month for an FPS, just look at SoE's attempt.
Why does a MMOG have to be about killing monsters and collecting loot? It could be about anything that involves a lot of players. It could be about fighting everyone in all out war, building empires, and conquering others. It could be something somewhat similar to sims, with more buildings, crafting, etc. It could be about fighting off zombies and trying to survive in a horrific world. I don't see why MMOGs have to revolve around killing monsters that spawn in a specific area to collect their loot for yourself or some stupid uninspired quest. These are horrible games by themselves, they hardly have any story to follow, and they are linear. Boring advancement, no story, and linear restricting gameplay. The only saving grace of most MMOGs is that they are online and you can play with friends, or make a few in game. For me that is wearing off, and I don't feel special leveling up my character or getting that awesome weapon. I am not going to enjoy another poorly made MMOG that follows the same crappy formula.
Content with WoW? Yep. Content is a good word. I'm not disappointed, nor am I amazed and entralled 24/7.
Do I plan on jumping to another MMO blah blah? Warhammer is next on the list. The most recent display of "exactly the same" is Lord of the WoW Online, and I was not impressed. I wouldn't classify WoW as "mundane" in the slightest, though. Loot is part of the MMO draw, and it is going to be a factor, regardless. Keeping players online for multiple YEARS requires a system of gain and loss that feels real. I know I'll come back to play if I am ___cloth away from making _____, even if that just sets me back to 0 for the next piece of armor.
I still don't give a shit if a bear gives me a dagger, though. I loot it and disenchant it. Without that feature grinding bears would be so much less appealing. I'm looking for the next innovation that keeps my attention, just like anyone else.
Here's a question to ponder. What mechanic could an MMO develop to rival the allure of items? I know for a fact PvP isn't going to do it. If you make PvP itemless you turn it into an FPS. No one wants to pay per month for an FPS, just look at SoE's attempt.
Why does a MMOG have to be about killing monsters and collecting loot? It could be about anything that involves a lot of players. It could be about fighting everyone in all out war, building empires, and conquering others. It could be something somewhat similar to sims, with more buildings, crafting, etc. It could be about fighting off zombies and trying to survive in a horrific world. I don't see why MMOGs have to revolve around killing monsters that spawn in a specific area to collect their loot for yourself or some stupid uninspired quest. These are horrible games by themselves, they hardly have any story to follow, and they are linear. Boring advancement, no story, and linear restricting gameplay. The only saving grace of most MMOGs is that they are online and you can play with friends, or make a few in game. For me that is wearing off, and I don't feel special leveling up my character or getting that awesome weapon. I am not going to enjoy another poorly made MMOG that follows the same crappy formula. If you look to the left of this thread you will see a list of mmoRPGs. I suppose I was referring to a General Discussion of www.mmoRPG.com. If we are talking all MMOGs, I would have to consider a much broader span of gaming.
When we refer to MMORPGs, we are speaking of a very small nice of the online gaming world. What you may think of as "uninspired" is a lot of fun to others. If you don't enjoy them you can always play This Old House Online, or any other game that features online play.
When I read your comment I assumed (incorrectly) that it was a comment concerning the MMORPG genre, not the MMOG genre. MMOG is much broader, and therefore we must consider a lot more.
Also, I like killing monsters that spawn in certain areas. I loved it when I picked up Ultima Online, I continued to love it when I raided in EverQuest, and I still love it as I anticipate Warhammer Online. I refuse to be sidetracked by people who didn't enjoy the genre.
I hate racing games, but I don't go to a racing game website and tell them about it.
One way of looking at it is that the wolf killed someone before who had that item on him. Now, if a DM was running the game, you might find said item not on the wolf but nearby, perhaps in a small area under cover of rock and foilage where the wolf had kill (or dragged the body) of the former living person. Where is the rest of the loot? Found by others, rusted away, taken by rabbits or whatever. It's just a matter of how you do the presentation.
Now, as to the wolf lair, you might find it but inside might be a few more wolves to fight before the big payout.
In general, I don't mind the random loot considering how it will still be random if you make tables specifc to each mob. See, when you do that, then people will fight the same mob over and over again because it has that special drop and where is the realism in that? Oh wait, we only want realism when it suits us. never mind....
One way of looking at it is that the wolf killed someone before who had that item on him. Now, if a DM was running the game, you might find said item not on the wolf but nearby, perhaps in a small area under cover of rock and foilage where the wolf had kill (or dragged the body) of the former living person. Where is the rest of the loot? Found by others, rusted away, taken by rabbits or whatever. It's just a matter of how you do the presentation. Now, as to the wolf lair, you might find it but inside might be a few more wolves to fight before the big payout. In general, I don't mind the random loot considering how it will still be random if you make tables specifc to each mob. See, when you do that, then people will fight the same mob over and over again because it has that special drop and where is the realism in that? Oh wait, we only want realism when it suits us. never mind....
yes yes yes, we've covered that one already.
It A.) Does not explain why the loot is there on the body of the wolf and not in said lair and B.) Does not explain why there are thousands of wolves, all with a stash of gold and random items nearby, not only that but why each stash has about the same amount of cash in it.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Gameloading I disagree, Random things like that are what makes the game fun.
Superb! While we are doing that unrealistic random loot junk you seem to crave so much, let's also just throw our random number generator at each mobs health. Lets have one level 1 rabbit have 7 hit points, and the next have 32,561 hit points! Yay! You'll never know what your getting into no matter what you choose to fight! And lets also throw our random generator at the towns and mix each town location in the world up every 20 minutes or so. You start in the town of Doomfrog and then try to go back to that same location, but now its just an empty desert! Or maybe it's a level 60 dungeon there now! Doomfrog is now 367 miles away and in the forest. For the next 20 minutes that is, until our wonderful random generator hits it again! yay!
The mmo devs are way too fond of the random generators these days and give out ridiculous loot as a result. I was fighting a level 5 seabird in WoW the other day and it dropped chain leggings, an axe, and a steel helmet as well as an egg, feathers and a claw. That's just stupid as hell. I mean the loots nice, but it's just stupid.
I never really worried too much about this until I first played EQ and a snake I killed in the noob area dropped a pair of leather shoes... and I was like
I guess I was spoilt because UO mobs actually dropped loot that fitted thier existence... mostly...
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I was fighting a level 5 seabird in WoW the other day and it dropped chain leggings, an axe, and a steel helmet as well as an egg, feathers and a claw.
Comments
This is actually a very interesting discussion. While I obviously have my preference, I can see the other side's point of view as well.
Let me say this. If I kill 100 wolves, then atleast 90% of the time, I would prefer that the game gives me logical loot such as wolf fur, meat, teeth, claws and whatever. A randomness that might make a wolf drop a dagger of +3 damage might be cool as hell and spark more excitement into the role of killing any mob. Almost like the lottery. However, what is pretty lame is when almost every single wolf you kill, no matter where it is drops insanely silly loot.
I also very much agree with the person who stated that it was also kinda frustrating or even lame that if you kill 100 bandits with armor and weapons that none of them will drop the armor or weapon that you see on their body. Sheesh, if I kill a giant troll with a gigantic axe, I alteast want some chance of receiving that gigantic axe he was hitting me with as the prize when I loot his corpse.
Anyhow, I want to thank EVERYONE who is contributing to this conversation thus far for refraining from the typical flame and rant posts. It makes a thread so much more interesting to read and think about without all the fire burning and name calling.
- Zaxx
Go play realistiv games, its a fantasy game.. Live with it..
It’s not up to the author to feed you every last detail. At some point you have to engage the world and make it your own, but if they try and feed you every last detail you will simply get caught up in minutia and that gets very boring.
I am not one to buy the famous MMO line:
"The only limit is your imagination."
Put it in the game the right way so we don't have to argue about things as minimal as this...
LOTR:O, why would they rehash their whole system because of this very issue if they thought players could use their imagination to fill in the blanks? Turbine is striving to make every detail as close as possible, I don't see why other games can't do it as well.
It's one thing if you are playing in a game world where you can walk upside down on the roofs of buildings and walls, but it's another if you are playing in a game world that is, for the most part, realistic.
The original EQ had multiple armor sizes for the races, small for dwarfs and gnomes, medium for human types, and large for ogres, trolls and barbarians. Monks wore only a few things and became easily encumbered.
I believe that the reason these games no longer house roleplayers as they once did is because now everyone is equal, everything is the same, the game play is dumbed down and everyone has the size abilities and armor. There's no more uniqueness, there's no sense that you are really in the game world, especially when you can run past a quest and that you've done and the damn NPC is still crying for help.
That realism, that sense that everything as a positive and negative consequence helps to fuel roleplaying. These games have as of late removed all the evils and made it too easy. Recall humans in EQ not being able to see properly? Look at how much that alone added to the game play... you can light sources, you could roleplay much more easily with others, you stayed in doors at night, you'd hang out at the pub etc.
We need these things in order to keep us grounded if we want to have any shred of roleplayers in these games. It can't all be imagination, there needs to be some level of coherency in order to create a medium for those that wish to partake. This realism IMHO gives us the catalyst to roleplay. Without it we are perfect avatars without weakness, we are no longer roleplaying, we're playing with barbie and ken in the bathtub, and the water is getting cold.
A little offtopic, but anyone else looking forward to the new MMORPGs? I can' t wait to play them, and post on their forums about how they got it all wrong and need to decrease exp, take out quests, take out PvP, add more dungeons, increase spawns, make grouping mandatory, and increase the level cap. I don't know about you, but having nearly all MMORPGs revolve around killing monsters and collecting loot isn't enough for me, I want them all to be equally one dimensional and boring.
Your humble MMORPG player,
Bobvila
Let's grind grind grind and grind some more...
I agree with the op.
Just because we play a fictional game of the fantasy genre (or sci-fi, etc.), it doesn't mean that all common sense should be thrown out the window. The rules of our normal reality, as mentioned by others, are already discarded when we fight dragons and aliens but that doesn't mean that ALL rules have to go. Much like a movie, you can bend a story's reality pretty far and establish rules like magic and mutation without seeming absurd in context of that world. Consider the "Blair Witch Project" -- if you allow yourself to be immersed into the story, it's actually quite good. Then take "True Lies" --Ahnold is a super spy with l337 skills but he doesn't ride his pony off the rooftop. Very reasonbale. The problem is in the last 5 minutes he's piloting a harrier, catching his daugter on a wing and thwarting the villain -- that broke the reality for me.
The same can be said for games -- a non sequitur will break immersion and the fact is it is entirely avoidable with proper itemization.
Coincidences like in the above quote only take you so far, when every last creature you kill "happened" to have swallowed a bag of gold, and "happen" to drop something not at all associated with them, the last thing in sight is realism.
I'm sorry, but there is no way whatsoever to justify the kind of drop tables you get in most MMORPGs within the bounds of the storyline, even if some message pops up every time about finding a nearby stash. The author may not have to hand feed you all the details, but there is something called "consistancy" that in most other story related applications is highly valued.
Now, I am also perfectly aware that many gamers don't give an ass diving butterfly for the storyline, but I personally do.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
I agree with the OP. it is an immersion killer.
Then again the carrot needs to be there, carrot is largely what these games are about.
I just wish they would sort it differently, surely a wolf or any predator really can drop say jewelry and still be within the boundries of believable, but a full plate?
I never ask for realism in these games, I do however ask for it to be believable.
No one would stand for a Tie Figther screaming down on Freeport in EQ2.
Wielding a a gatling gun in DDO would be silly.
I would not mind one in the Sims though,
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I think I agree with Zaxtor on this one. If its a Wolf, drop [Wolf Bits]. The dragon idea was cool though.
It is all risk vs. reward. I'd rather have a chance to get a magic item off of any mob than just parts.
Also, there would be far more people slaying humanoids and demons for items if only humanoids and demons carried them. I like the chance to get items while killing any creature. It makes the reward for questing that much sweeter.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
To begin with, the current loot system isn't the product of lazy devs. This system was very deliberately planned. Before UO, there was this little game called Diablo. It was basically just a point and click fest with very limited interaction. Obviously, Roper was just basing the game on other traditional (rogue-like) RPGs of the time, but it probably didn't take too long before someone with a marketing degree figured out that the main pull of the game was the fact that the player was getting rewarded at a steady pace throughout the game. Either the player was gaining a level or gaining some new piece of unidentified loot that would turn out to be some uber weapon during the next section. Throw in a little behaviorist psychology and you have the formula for the standard MMORPG. Interestingly enough, this isn't to different from a room full of slot machines in Las Vegas.
The secret is in the ratio of reinforcement. Most MMORPGs work with several overlapping schedules of reinforcement. XP is a fixed interval system with diminishing returns terminating with complete extinction of reinforcement at the level cap. Loot is a compound schedule with a variable ratio ( the mean number or responses occurring between reinforcements averaged over the entire population for a given zone) and variable interval (reinforcement of the first response after a set amount of time, also averaged out among a zone's population). The loot system you suggest is actually an entirely different (as well as less impulsively compelling) kind of game.
What you're talking about is UO. Aside from a complete lack of personality, UO's major problem was it's interface. Directly related to that, the game's pacing was also a problem. While the cycle of gather, craft, and adventure served to break up some of the monotony, it also limited the players that just wanted to go kick some ass. You had to make THOUSANDS of skull caps, arrows, nails, etc, before you had enough skill and money to equip yourself for actual adventuring. The interface was clunky and the tasks themselves didn't really flow into eachother in a way that made you feel like you were accomplishing anything, even if you were. When planning UO's skill advancement curve, they totally forgot about people who had jobs and families competing for their attention. UO could have been a kind of combination of Diablo and The Sims (yes, I know the Sims came out later). Had UO's pacing been closer to either of those games, it would have been much more popular.
This all points to the main draw of MMORPGs being the collection of stuff. It's the manner in which this stuff is collected that makes the game compelling. I could argue either way. I could claim that business / factory style gameplay is totally boring and uninteresting, but the industry keeps cranking out "Tycoon" games like they're cheese sandwiches. I could argue that just spamming buttons and repeating the same action over and over again is about as exciting as watching golf on TV, but the industry also has a large number of people that love simple match three color games.
It's ultimately up to what the player prefers. There does seem to be an imbalance in the number of titles on one side (the slot machine side), but that doesn't mean that there are not games, either available or upcoming, that don't cater to the less traveled path.
Do I plan on jumping to another MMO blah blah? Warhammer is next on the list. The most recent display of "exactly the same" is Lord of the WoW Online, and I was not impressed. I wouldn't classify WoW as "mundane" in the slightest, though. Loot is part of the MMO draw, and it is going to be a factor, regardless. Keeping players online for multiple YEARS requires a system of gain and loss that feels real. I know I'll come back to play if I am ___cloth away from making _____, even if that just sets me back to 0 for the next piece of armor.
I still don't give a shit if a bear gives me a dagger, though. I loot it and disenchant it. Without that feature grinding bears would be so much less appealing. I'm looking for the next innovation that keeps my attention, just like anyone else.
Here's a question to ponder. What mechanic could an MMO develop to rival the allure of items? I know for a fact PvP isn't going to do it. If you make PvP itemless you turn it into an FPS. No one wants to pay per month for an FPS, just look at SoE's attempt.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Roma Victor is not about killing monsters, collecting loot and running back and forth to complete "quests."
Far from it.
I just got done playing Lord of The Rings beta and I am quite dissapointed after having experienced Roma Victor.
Roma Victor is much differnt than all these other MMOGs coming out, which are basically console games disguised as MMOGs.
When we refer to MMORPGs, we are speaking of a very small nice of the online gaming world. What you may think of as "uninspired" is a lot of fun to others. If you don't enjoy them you can always play This Old House Online, or any other game that features online play.
When I read your comment I assumed (incorrectly) that it was a comment concerning the MMORPG genre, not the MMOG genre. MMOG is much broader, and therefore we must consider a lot more.
Also, I like killing monsters that spawn in certain areas. I loved it when I picked up Ultima Online, I continued to love it when I raided in EverQuest, and I still love it as I anticipate Warhammer Online. I refuse to be sidetracked by people who didn't enjoy the genre.
I hate racing games, but I don't go to a racing game website and tell them about it.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
One way of looking at it is that the wolf killed someone before who had that item on him. Now, if a DM was running the game, you might find said item not on the wolf but nearby, perhaps in a small area under cover of rock and foilage where the wolf had kill (or dragged the body) of the former living person. Where is the rest of the loot? Found by others, rusted away, taken by rabbits or whatever. It's just a matter of how you do the presentation.
Now, as to the wolf lair, you might find it but inside might be a few more wolves to fight before the big payout.
In general, I don't mind the random loot considering how it will still be random if you make tables specifc to each mob. See, when you do that, then people will fight the same mob over and over again because it has that special drop and where is the realism in that? Oh wait, we only want realism when it suits us. never mind....
It A.) Does not explain why the loot is there on the body of the wolf and not in said lair and B.) Does not explain why there are thousands of wolves, all with a stash of gold and random items nearby, not only that but why each stash has about the same amount of cash in it.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Superb! While we are doing that unrealistic random loot junk you seem to crave so much, let's also just throw our random number generator at each mobs health. Lets have one level 1 rabbit have 7 hit points, and the next have 32,561 hit points! Yay! You'll never know what your getting into no matter what you choose to fight! And lets also throw our random generator at the towns and mix each town location in the world up every 20 minutes or so. You start in the town of Doomfrog and then try to go back to that same location, but now its just an empty desert! Or maybe it's a level 60 dungeon there now! Doomfrog is now 367 miles away and in the forest. For the next 20 minutes that is, until our wonderful random generator hits it again! yay!
The mmo devs are way too fond of the random generators these days and give out ridiculous loot as a result. I was fighting a level 5 seabird in WoW the other day and it dropped chain leggings, an axe, and a steel helmet as well as an egg, feathers and a claw. That's just stupid as hell. I mean the loots nice, but it's just stupid.
I never really worried too much about this until I first played EQ and a snake I killed in the noob area dropped a pair of leather shoes... and I was like
I guess I was spoilt because UO mobs actually dropped loot that fitted thier existence... mostly...
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
It's 100% true. Just happened to me on Sunday. The only thing I'm not sure about is if it was a level 5 or a level 6 mob.