Also with regards to your question I believe the answer should be Maybe.
GMs need to consider:
a) Was the guild at large benefiting from the exploit
b) Can it be reasonably assumed that the guildmembers were aware that abuse related to an exploit was taking place.
c) Are all cases of exploitable offenses being handled in the same manner. Or in other words is their policy of banning people in response to exploiting equitable.
WARNING: Spelling and grammatical errors intentionally left in document to test for Anal Retentive Trolls.
"The key to wasting time is distraction. Without distractions it's too obvious to your brain that you're not doing anything with it, and you start to feel uncomfortable." - Paul Graham http://paulgraham.com/hs.html
If one member of a group/club/business breaks the law, should we put all the members of the group/club/business in prison?
Of course we should... It is your responsibility to be able to read the minds of the people you choose to associate with. Sigil are wasting their time making games, I want them to start making laws.
Here is my question: If 1 man in a guild that has more then 40 members does something like duping or using an exploit does that mean they should bann the whole guild?? Sofar i have heard of a couple of guilds getting banned and yes i am part of 1 of them that got the shaft as it turned out after talking to a GM who was kinda rude and unhelpfull our Guild Leader was missusing a mob spawn that dropped gold instead of copper.
sounds like to me that the GMS discovered farming guilds. Im sure the entire guild was involved. We're only hearing your side of the story.
I bet you the next to go is Kojan Construction Company in Florendyl. That Guild leader is an ass who controls the entire guilds financial resources. Have the crafting community have bets on the table on whether or not he will sell it to IGE before the summer gets here.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
It depends on who it is and how widespread the knowledge of what the exploiter was doing is in the guild. It also depends on if the exploiter was the guildleader or not.
If what the exploiter was doing is common knowledge in the guild then the guild members are obligated to report the person. If they don't and turn a blind eye or accept the rewards from what the exploiter was doing, I'd say ban the players and those with direct knowledge/involvement and dispand the guild.
If the guild members had no idea what the exploiter was doing then just ban the exploiter.
Whether we want to admit it or not, guilds are responsible for the actions of their members. If a member does good we commend the player and it sheds a good light on the guild in the community. The exact same thing should happen if a member is bad, but most times people try to use 2 different standards.
GuildX member is accused of ninja looting. GuildX leaders and members say: "We can't be held accountable for one bad apple." or my favorite: "Every guild has a bad apple or two but it's not fair to hold that against the entire guild."
GuildX member is said to be a great guy who helps everyone. GuildX leaders and members say: "That's just the kinda cool guild we are. We have great people and we walk on water."
If indeed you ban a whole guild for one members actions regardless of the circumstances it just takes one digruntled person with some cash to spend to destroy guild after guild.
Nope I do not hink we are hearing the entire story here.
The game is suffering enough as it is, arbitrary bannings is NOT what VG needs rigth now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is an e-mail that i have recieved sofar from a GM its been 7 days now and its the first e-mail i recieved as of yet. I say ban the leaders and get ride of the coin and let the others get back into the game. VG is really hurting subs atm loosing so many people after the first 30 days that they can use all the subs they can get.
DONT BLAME OTHERS FOR 1 OR 2 GUYS THAT SCREWD UP AND GET TO WORK AND GET THE OTHERS BACK IN THE GAME!!!
Greetings,
First let me state that this email is being sent to every member of your guild.
My apologies for this email taking so long to get to everyone. I had hoped and believed we would have everyone back in game before now. For those of you who were not talked to by myself in game, or have not yet been advised of what is happening, I will fully explain that now.
The ****** guild is exploiting, and distributing that coin amongst a few of its members.
The management of the guild ( ***** and **** ) is trying to hide behind the fact that because they were smart enough to keep the accounts that were exploiting away from having guild tags, that it makes them innocent to the crimes that have been committed. This could not be further from the truth.
We have traced the accounts directly involved with exploiting to accounts with matching IP's, exactly to the Guild Master of ******. The Guild Master states that he was given access to the account to use the exploit, but had no idea that it was against the eula. The Guild Master would have us believe that he honestly thinks that someone giving him access to a level 1 account with 300 gold on that account, nor has he done anything wrong. We do not believe him, and we will be holding him and his guild accountable for these actions.
So far the ***** guild has had a confirmed 1500 Gold given to it by this exploit from accounts that are attached by IP to that of your Guild Master. This gold has been distributed to 1 or 2 people within the guild, and the ****** guild is now the wealthiest guild. It will take some time for us to review each and every one of your characters and remove every item and coin that was attached to those accounts from using the exploit.
For those of you who did not know what your officers were doing, and wish to disassociate yourself with this guild, please feel free to contact me and we will discuss removing your character from the guild and getting you back online without the exploited items.
Those of you who were involved with the exploit, who wish to continue to be part of the guild, and who stand by your Guild Master’s defense that it is fully acceptable to accept massive amounts of exploited coin under the false claims of ignorance will need to continue not having access to the game until the leadership of your guild finally reveals the secrets it is keeping on how to dupe the coin.
Here is an e-mail that i have recieved sofar from a GM its been 7 days now and its the first e-mail i recieved as of yet. I say ban the leaders and get ride of the coin and let the others get back into the game. VG is really hurting subs atm loosing so many people after the first 30 days that they can use all the subs they can get. DONT BLAME OTHERS FOR 1 OR 2 GUYS THAT SCREWD UP AND GET TO WORK AND GET THE OTHERS BACK IN THE GAME!!!
Greetings, First let me state that this email is being sent to every member of your guild. My apologies for this email taking so long to get to everyone. I had hoped and believed we would have everyone back in game before now. For those of you who were not talked to by myself in game, or have not yet been advised of what is happening, I will fully explain that now. The ****** guild is exploiting, and distributing that coin amongst a few of its members. The management of the guild ( ***** and **** ) is trying to hide behind the fact that because they were smart enough to keep the accounts that were exploiting away from having guild tags, that it makes them innocent to the crimes that have been committed. This could not be further from the truth. We have traced the accounts directly involved with exploiting to accounts with matching IP's, exactly to the Guild Master of ******. The Guild Master states that he was given access to the account to use the exploit, but had no idea that it was against the eula. The Guild Master would have us believe that he honestly thinks that someone giving him access to a level 1 account with 300 gold on that account, nor has he done anything wrong. We do not believe him, and we will be holding him and his guild accountable for these actions. So far the ***** guild has had a confirmed 1500 Gold given to it by this exploit from accounts that are attached by IP to that of your Guild Master. This gold has been distributed to 1 or 2 people within the guild, and the ****** guild is now the wealthiest guild. It will take some time for us to review each and every one of your characters and remove every item and coin that was attached to those accounts from using the exploit. For those of you who did not know what your officers were doing, and wish to disassociate yourself with this guild, please feel free to contact me and we will discuss removing your character from the guild and getting you back online without the exploited items. Those of you who were involved with the exploit, who wish to continue to be part of the guild, and who stand by your Guild Master’s defense that it is fully acceptable to accept massive amounts of exploited coin under the false claims of ignorance will need to continue not having access to the game until the leadership of your guild finally reveals the secrets it is keeping on how to dupe the coin. Regards, ***** ******* Game Marshal ******** Sigil Games Online, Inc. www.sigil.com | www.vanguardsoh.com
dupeing in swg, some evil git found or was told of a cash exploit, he went around buying out peoples stuff on vendors, stored stuff worth next to nothing for 100m
should I ban the duper (yep)
what should I do with the guy who sold the things on his vendor?
nothing was done to the guy whos stuff was sold, people were asked to send in what they thought was duped cash (e-mail tips of millions) but the people who sold things kept the cash, as was only right
If any Guild leader is involved with anything that goes against the EULA, then he/she and their guild should be banned basically. Now, the individual members should be warned that their guild is being dissolved and additionally told why. No guild member unless evidence shows they are part of breaking game EULA should be banned.
With leadership comes responsibilty!
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
Well, the letter from Sigil pretty much explains it all, and it looks to me like they are offering amnesty to not only innocent guild members, but even the guild leaders and dupers if they'll just reveal what secret they used to dupe the gold.
They are being more than fair, and I completely support the actions they are taking to enforce honest and fair game play.
To the OP..if you're one of the innocent.... contact Sigil and make your peace
And if you are one of the dupers.... they should be much harsher and ban you for good.....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thanks for posting the letter [one part has a very confusing sentence - was the letter editted?]
After reading it, I agree 100% with what Sigil did, especially since it appears that this is actually more of a suspension than a ban. By the sounds of it, the guild leader either had bought a farmer account [level 1 with 300 gold!] or was preparing the account for sale. Either way, his account SHOULD be banned. For the rest, you're getting off easy by just giving up the gold - I'd have deleted your characters and flagged the accounts to keep an eye on you for the future.
I am 1 of the guys who didnt have anything to do with the leaders i joined like 2 days befor the suspention.
I am giving all the information i can to help them solving this and to get my account free again. I will hope they ban the GL and his little helpers that were involved and knew about it.
You know, you all will hate me for this, but who’s fault is it really, the game for allowing this or the person who took advantage of it. I mean, the game is about competition, P v E, and yet somehow it becomes the player fault for taking advantage of it. I farmed the Verdant Lurkers, and so did a lot of other people the, named bandits for their dropped items to sell on the brokers, so I guess I was an exploiter. After all the drop rate is not what it was, so it seems that being banned is more of measure of success than any thing else. So what if his alts had money, so what he had money, what are you all socialist. You mean the guild members should monitor the leader’s or members bank accounts like the KGB, or the IRS, talk, about big brother. This is more a problem about a broken game, than anything else
With any justice system it is important to punish the guilty. It is how you treat the people before they are proven guilty that defines the shit systems from the good. If you are guilty you should be banned, if you are innocent, then you should not be, and guilt by association is not good enough. I might be friends with a serial killer, the problem is, I don't know he is a serial killer. Only morons would believe I must have known... And being morons, they shouldn't be a part of the justice system.
Sigil seems to have given the innocent a chance to leave the guild, and to remove ill-begot items from their characters... It depends on how long it takes for them to get the folks that take this option back into the game. If someone sold me a stolen bike, the police would say "This bike was stolen, we are confiscating it"... but they wouldn't charge me with stealing the bike. At least that is how it works in Australia.
Originally posted by Aurelyn With any justice system it is important to punish the guilty. It is how you treat the people before they are proven guilty that defines the shit systems from the good. If you are guilty you should be banned, if you are innocent, then you should not be, and guilt by association is not good enough. I might be friends with a serial killer, the problem is, I don't know he is a serial killer. Only morons would believe I must have known... And being morons, they shouldn't be a part of the justice system.Sigil seems to have given the innocent a chance to leave the guild, and to remove ill-begot items from their characters... It depends on how long it takes for them to get the folks that take this option back into the game. If someone sold me a stolen bike, the police would say "This bike was stolen, we are confiscating it"... but they wouldn't charge me with stealing the bike. At least that is how it works in Australia.
In the US, if you can be charged with receiving stolen property. What the actual outcome of those charges is depends on the circumstances. If someone sold you a rolls royce for $1500, then yeah, you'd have to have been brain dead not to realize something was up, and you'll pay a nice fine, and some probation, maybe jail time. You buy a car at blue book value, with what looks to be a legit title, and it turns up fake when you go to register the car, then no, in all likelihood you're just out the money you spent on the car, though I suppose you could sue for return of your money.
As for the banning(s). I'm pretty ok with it. While in this case the OP seems to be on the level, I've just seen far, far to many posts like this where people claim to have been banned 'for no reason'. Invariably, it turns out they were cheating in some way.
Personally, I think it would have been smarter for the GM's to just flag the appropriate characters, and just watch them, and the game logs to see how the dupe worked, and who all was legitimately involved. Wouldn't make their job any harder, actually it would make it easier, as they'd know how the duping was done, and they'd have avoided banning/suspending any innocent parties caught in the crossfire, saving themselves a bit of legwork getting those people unbanned.
Why I haven't found a job as head of CS for one of these damned games is beyond me.
I am 1 of the guys who didnt have anything to do with the leaders i joined like 2 days befor the suspention. I am giving all the information i can to help them solving this and to get my account free again. I will hope they ban the GL and his little helpers that were involved and knew about it.
I think you will be playing again soon. Doesn't sound like you knew about it or benefited from it. Good luck.
if ur sister or brother kill someone does that mean the whole family gets death penalty? Easy to just sit there and blah blah blah about someone's else's problem when u dont have to deal with it.
If my sister or brother killed someone and I knew about it and aided them in any way shape or form then I can be found guilty of aiding and abetting, be found guilty as an accomplice etc etc etc.
it doesnt matter what happen or why it happen and this applies to anything from games to even life. whoever did something that was wrong is their fault because it was their choice to do it and man has the free will to choose their own actions. it doesnt matter if someone else told them to do it or whatever the excuse is, it was the person who did its fault. this is common sense guys if they punish the whole guild you shouldnt be playin that game since they dont even know what common sense is. you should play somthin else like guildwars.
This is more a problem about a broken game, than anything else
Thats the key point.
All this type of action is going to do so early after the launch is to heap more scorn onto SOE. There are already loads of people who never will play because of their involvement. I am sure there are people who are currently playing who are wary of SOE and these type of "police responses" will only hurt the game.
Comments
Sorry to hear you were banned.
Also with regards to your question I believe the answer should be Maybe.
GMs need to consider:
a) Was the guild at large benefiting from the exploit
b) Can it be reasonably assumed that the guildmembers were aware that abuse related to an exploit was taking place.
c) Are all cases of exploitable offenses being handled in the same manner. Or in other words is their policy of banning people in response to exploiting equitable.
WARNING: Spelling and grammatical errors intentionally left in document to test for Anal Retentive Trolls.
"The key to wasting time is distraction. Without distractions it's too obvious to your brain that you're not doing anything with it, and you start to feel uncomfortable." - Paul Graham http://paulgraham.com/hs.html
Of course we should... It is your responsibility to be able to read the minds of the people you choose to associate with. Sigil are wasting their time making games, I want them to start making laws.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
sounds like to me that the GMS discovered farming guilds. Im sure the entire guild was involved. We're only hearing your side of the story.
I bet you the next to go is Kojan Construction Company in Florendyl. That Guild leader is an ass who controls the entire guilds financial resources. Have the crafting community have bets on the table on whether or not he will sell it to IGE before the summer gets here.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
If what the exploiter was doing is common knowledge in the guild then the guild members are obligated to report the person. If they don't and turn a blind eye or accept the rewards from what the exploiter was doing, I'd say ban the players and those with direct knowledge/involvement and dispand the guild.
If the guild members had no idea what the exploiter was doing then just ban the exploiter.
Whether we want to admit it or not, guilds are responsible for the actions of their members. If a member does good we commend the player and it sheds a good light on the guild in the community. The exact same thing should happen if a member is bad, but most times people try to use 2 different standards.
GuildX member is accused of ninja looting. GuildX leaders and members say: "We can't be held accountable for one bad apple." or my favorite: "Every guild has a bad apple or two but it's not fair to hold that against the entire guild."
GuildX member is said to be a great guy who helps everyone. GuildX leaders and members say: "That's just the kinda cool guild we are. We have great people and we walk on water."
Seems to me this has to be carefully considered.
If indeed you ban a whole guild for one members actions regardless of the circumstances it just takes one digruntled person with some cash to spend to destroy guild after guild.
Nope I do not hink we are hearing the entire story here.
The game is suffering enough as it is, arbitrary bannings is NOT what VG needs rigth now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is an e-mail that i have recieved sofar from a GM its been 7 days now and its the first e-mail i recieved as of yet. I say ban the leaders and get ride of the coin and let the others get back into the game. VG is really hurting subs atm loosing so many people after the first 30 days that they can use all the subs they can get.
DONT BLAME OTHERS FOR 1 OR 2 GUYS THAT SCREWD UP AND GET TO WORK AND GET THE OTHERS BACK IN THE GAME!!!
Greetings,
First let me state that this email is being sent to every member of your guild.
My apologies for this email taking so long to get to everyone. I had hoped and believed we would have everyone back in game before now. For those of you who were not talked to by myself in game, or have not yet been advised of what is happening, I will fully explain that now.
The ****** guild is exploiting, and distributing that coin amongst a few of its members.
The management of the guild ( ***** and **** ) is trying to hide behind the fact that because they were smart enough to keep the accounts that were exploiting away from having guild tags, that it makes them innocent to the crimes that have been committed. This could not be further from the truth.
We have traced the accounts directly involved with exploiting to accounts with matching IP's, exactly to the Guild Master of ******. The Guild Master states that he was given access to the account to use the exploit, but had no idea that it was against the eula. The Guild Master would have us believe that he honestly thinks that someone giving him access to a level 1 account with 300 gold on that account, nor has he done anything wrong. We do not believe him, and we will be holding him and his guild accountable for these actions.
So far the ***** guild has had a confirmed 1500 Gold given to it by this exploit from accounts that are attached by IP to that of your Guild Master. This gold has been distributed to 1 or 2 people within the guild, and the ****** guild is now the wealthiest guild. It will take some time for us to review each and every one of your characters and remove every item and coin that was attached to those accounts from using the exploit.
For those of you who did not know what your officers were doing, and wish to disassociate yourself with this guild, please feel free to contact me and we will discuss removing your character from the guild and getting you back online without the exploited items.
Those of you who were involved with the exploit, who wish to continue to be part of the guild, and who stand by your Guild Master’s defense that it is fully acceptable to accept massive amounts of exploited coin under the false claims of ignorance will need to continue not having access to the game until the leadership of your guild finally reveals the secrets it is keeping on how to dupe the coin.
Regards,
***** *******
Game Marshal ********
Sigil Games Online, Inc.
www.sigil.com | www.vanguardsoh.com
There's no need to hide his name, there's only one Game Marshal. Gary Grobson http://www.sigilgames.com/team/garygrobson.html
dupeing in swg, some evil git found or was told of a cash exploit, he went around buying out peoples stuff on vendors, stored stuff worth next to nothing for 100m
should I ban the duper (yep)
what should I do with the guy who sold the things on his vendor?
nothing was done to the guy whos stuff was sold, people were asked to send in what they thought was duped cash (e-mail tips of millions) but the people who sold things kept the cash, as was only right
With leadership comes responsibilty!
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Well, the letter from Sigil pretty much explains it all, and it looks to me like they are offering amnesty to not only innocent guild members, but even the guild leaders and dupers if they'll just reveal what secret they used to dupe the gold.
They are being more than fair, and I completely support the actions they are taking to enforce honest and fair game play.
To the OP..if you're one of the innocent.... contact Sigil and make your peace
And if you are one of the dupers.... they should be much harsher and ban you for good.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thanks for posting the letter [one part has a very confusing sentence - was the letter editted?]
After reading it, I agree 100% with what Sigil did, especially since it appears that this is actually more of a suspension than a ban. By the sounds of it, the guild leader either had bought a farmer account [level 1 with 300 gold!] or was preparing the account for sale. Either way, his account SHOULD be banned. For the rest, you're getting off easy by just giving up the gold - I'd have deleted your characters and flagged the accounts to keep an eye on you for the future.
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
I am 1 of the guys who didnt have anything to do with the leaders i joined like 2 days befor the suspention.
I am giving all the information i can to help them solving this and to get my account free again. I will hope they ban the GL and his little helpers that were involved and knew about it.
Have we learned nothing from the Libby case? You always need to have a fall guy.
Sigil seems to have given the innocent a chance to leave the guild, and to remove ill-begot items from their characters... It depends on how long it takes for them to get the folks that take this option back into the game. If someone sold me a stolen bike, the police would say "This bike was stolen, we are confiscating it"... but they wouldn't charge me with stealing the bike. At least that is how it works in Australia.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
In the US, if you can be charged with receiving stolen property. What the actual outcome of those charges is depends on the circumstances. If someone sold you a rolls royce for $1500, then yeah, you'd have to have been brain dead not to realize something was up, and you'll pay a nice fine, and some probation, maybe jail time. You buy a car at blue book value, with what looks to be a legit title, and it turns up fake when you go to register the car, then no, in all likelihood you're just out the money you spent on the car, though I suppose you could sue for return of your money.
As for the banning(s). I'm pretty ok with it. While in this case the OP seems to be on the level, I've just seen far, far to many posts like this where people claim to have been banned 'for no reason'. Invariably, it turns out they were cheating in some way.
Personally, I think it would have been smarter for the GM's to just flag the appropriate characters, and just watch them, and the game logs to see how the dupe worked, and who all was legitimately involved. Wouldn't make their job any harder, actually it would make it easier, as they'd know how the duping was done, and they'd have avoided banning/suspending any innocent parties caught in the crossfire, saving themselves a bit of legwork getting those people unbanned.
Why I haven't found a job as head of CS for one of these damned games is beyond me.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
it doesnt matter what happen or why it happen and this applies to anything from games to even life. whoever did something that was wrong is their fault because it was their choice to do it and man has the free will to choose their own actions. it doesnt matter if someone else told them to do it or whatever the excuse is, it was the person who did its fault. this is common sense guys if they punish the whole guild you shouldnt be playin that game since they dont even know what common sense is. you should play somthin else like guildwars.
All this type of action is going to do so early after the launch is to heap more scorn onto SOE. There are already loads of people who never will play because of their involvement. I am sure there are people who are currently playing who are wary of SOE and these type of "police responses" will only hurt the game.