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"Nerfing" and Game Balance
adliPremo
Member Posts: 27
Over and over on the forums I see people complaining about adjustments to character attributes, or so-called "nerfing". If you're one of those guys, here's why you're an idiot.
- Game developers and designers understand game balance better than you do. It doesn't matter if you've played every race and class combination. These guys have been writing game code for years. If you perceive some sort of imbalance, it's probably because you're biased, or you just don't see the big picture. After all, nobody EVER says, "my class is too strong".
- You are not really a 12th level Paladin. If your feelings are hurt when your "Power Attack X" is reduced by X damage per second, some introspection is in order. Balancing the game is not a personal attack aimed at you. If you feel slighted because your on-screen persona was "nerfed" for the sake of game balance, it's time to grow up.
- Game balance does NOT mean that all players should be equally good at all things. To this end, developers go too far already to accommodate the mindless majority. "But my 10th level candle maker doesn't do as much damage as his 10th level barbarian! It's not fair!" Different classes have different strengths! The developers' only goal when searching for game balance should be to make all classes equally fun and rewarding to play! Imagine the character diversity we might unlock if we dispelled this moronic notion that all characters must be equal. Perhaps a Sage with little combat ability, but whose knowledge and information makes him invaluable. Or a Master Mechanic who helps smugglers evade the imperial star fleet (swg). No, instead we're reduced to 10 stereotypical look-a-likes who can all kill X of Y in Z seconds.
Comments
If this were true, then game developers would never use player feedback to tune their game. But they do. Often.
What do you think beta testing is for (or should be for, barring those who use it as a free trial)? Why do they read forums?
Anyway, you may hold developers up on a pedestal, but they can be just as shortsighted as players can. Both can suffer from bias, albeit in different ways. In the end, though, the developers need to satisfy the players. This does not mean that they should always listen to every player, as that would just cause chaos, but there is usually someone with something worthwhile to listen to that would enhance the game.
It's not a bad thing to listen to your playerbase, as they are in some ways more in touch with the way the game plays than any dev can really be.
It is, however, a bad idea to put too much stock in what the howling masses on your forums are screaming about. Even once you get past the histrionics, every single person posting has an agenda. Take Warlocks in WoW. Thread, after thread, after thread, calling for nerfs to everything they have. Some of the most idiotic overexaggeration, and just flat out stupidity I've read in a while. And it all boiled down to: "I can't one shot Warlocks for free HK's anymore. That's not fair!".
While it is true that players rarely, if ever consider the big picture, I often think the developers get too wrapped up in the big picture, and lose sight of what is fun about the game. If they even have any idea what it is that the players find fun to begin with. Case in point, SWG. The perfect example of a group of developers, team leads, and management that had absolutely no idea why the players found any given thing fun.
There needs to be a balance, between whats fun, and what's for the good of the game. That balance is razor thin, and really damn hard to walk correctly. Very few, if any, MMOs get it right out of the gate, or 1, 2, or even 3+ years down the road.
Some of it was capitulating to the yahoos that just wanted to be Jedi without putting forth any effort, or those complaining, and rightfully so, that the holocron crap was total stupidity, and certainly not the 'organic' method of attaining Jedihood that was promised us.
Some of it was just the devs throwing up their collective hands, and giving up.
The majority, I think, was management seeing the flagging sub numbers, and telling the devs to just open up jedi to anyone in an attempt to bring back vets that had given up, or burnt out on the holocube grind before finishing. Or to attract SW fans that might have played, but didn't because there were no jedi. As someone who burnt out doing the hologrind, when I heard they were just opening up jedi to any tom, dick, and mary, I thought it was a bit of a slap in the face. After requiring so much effort from those that wanted to be something supposedly unique, to just give it away to everyone shows a real lack of respect for their players on the part of management. It also shows just how clueless anyone was on how to deal with the game or it's fans. Something further proven by the CU, and NWG.
3. You give an opinion, which must be biased. You also say we're reduced to 10 stereotypical look -a-likes, which means you're dissatisfied with with usual developer design decisions that are contrary to your piece-of-a-picture opinion.
Some of it was capitulating to the yahoos that just wanted to be Jedi without putting forth any effort, or those complaining, and rightfully so, that the holocron crap was total stupidity, and certainly not the 'organic' method of attaining Jedihood that was promised us.
Some of it was just the devs throwing up their collective hands, and giving up.
The majority, I think, was management seeing the flagging sub numbers, and telling the devs to just open up jedi to anyone in an attempt to bring back vets that had given up, or burnt out on the holocube grind before finishing. Or to attract SW fans that might have played, but didn't because there were no jedi. As someone who burnt out doing the hologrind, when I heard they were just opening up jedi to any tom, dick, and mary, I thought it was a bit of a slap in the face. After requiring so much effort from those that wanted to be something supposedly unique, to just give it away to everyone shows a real lack of respect for their players on the part of management. It also shows just how clueless anyone was on how to deal with the game or it's fans. Something further proven by the CU, and NWG.
I didn't play SWG because you couldn't start as a Jedi. Very simple.
To me, it would be like purchasing an Formula Racing MMO and not being able to be a race car driver. Sure you could work in the pits or be the guy who waves the flag or perhaps the girl who is on the stand when the trophy is awarded. But then you have to work your way through all the jobs to become a race car driver. I was interested in racing cars not changing tires....
Yeah, they picked a seriously poor place in the timeline to place the game. After RotJ would have been optimal, as it gives you a good starting point for newb jedi being recruited by Luke as he rebuilds the Order, and it's not as if coming up with a Sith Lord would have been terribly difficult for those that chose to go the dark side route. It also would have given Lucas a way to finish Ep 7, 8 and 9 without having to actually make the movies. Plus all the EU stuff that pertains to the goings on in the post RotJ universe.
I wonder if the choice to place it were they did was a LA or SOE decision.
Out of curiosity, now that you are able to start out as a Jedi in the NGE, have you picked it up, and tried it? Or did the bad word of mouth from the community keep you away?
Not going to flame you, no need as you pretty much burned yourself to cinders with your initial statement.
I do have something for you to consider.
I have on many many occasions seen nerf that were later "un-nerfed" with an added statement of "well we migth have taken it to far".
Many many times nerfs are unintentional, as recent nerfs with damage in VG, they did indeed rectify this, these are changed or fixed, they are rarely if ever left in.
But by your reasoning developers can do no wrong?
Yet they do it often, both intentionally and un-intentionally.
We should just take all changes lying down, never speak up?
Even though years of experience shows us that yes, developers do indeed mess up on occasion?
And that my friend, is why you are an idiot.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I'm not an idiot, just getting older, and senility has begun to sink in.
Some of it was capitulating to the yahoos that just wanted to be Jedi without putting forth any effort, or those complaining, and rightfully so, that the holocron crap was total stupidity, and certainly not the 'organic' method of attaining Jedihood that was promised us.
Some of it was just the devs throwing up their collective hands, and giving up.
The majority, I think, was management seeing the flagging sub numbers, and telling the devs to just open up jedi to anyone in an attempt to bring back vets that had given up, or burnt out on the holocube grind before finishing. Or to attract SW fans that might have played, but didn't because there were no jedi. As someone who burnt out doing the hologrind, when I heard they were just opening up jedi to any tom, dick, and mary, I thought it was a bit of a slap in the face. After requiring so much effort from those that wanted to be something supposedly unique, to just give it away to everyone shows a real lack of respect for their players on the part of management. It also shows just how clueless anyone was on how to deal with the game or it's fans. Something further proven by the CU, and NWG.
I didn't play SWG because you couldn't start as a Jedi. Very simple.
To me, it would be like purchasing an Formula Racing MMO and not being able to be a race car driver. Sure you could work in the pits or be the guy who waves the flag or perhaps the girl who is on the stand when the trophy is awarded. But then you have to work your way through all the jobs to become a race car driver. I was interested in racing cars not changing tires....
Yeah, they picked a seriously poor place in the timeline to place the game. After RotJ would have been optimal, as it gives you a good starting point for newb jedi being recruited by Luke as he rebuilds the Order, and it's not as if coming up with a Sith Lord would have been terribly difficult for those that chose to go the dark side route. It also would have given Lucas a way to finish Ep 7, 8 and 9 without having to actually make the movies. Plus all the EU stuff that pertains to the goings on in the post RotJ universe.
I wonder if the choice to place it were they did was a LA or SOE decision.
Out of curiosity, now that you are able to start out as a Jedi in the NGE, have you picked it up, and tried it? Or did the bad word of mouth from the community keep you away?
Word of mouth from friends killed the deal as well. They all left the game after the change in classes.
If that wasn't bad enough, I heard that the jedi weren't actually unlockable from release and were actually patched in later. That would have been bad as well.
Basically, limited time to pursue games. Right now I am flashing a couple of my servers then heading out to a club. Hopefully not going to be out that late.
3. If you think that all characters should be equally powerful, you're an idiot.
Does that clear it up for you? I can give a ratsass about what you are talking about but taking stuff noobs whine about to heart then turing around and calling people idiots makes you an idiot, Idiot
GO fill out an ID10T form to make it official
The very fact that you wrote flame away at the end of the post means that at the back of your head you know you are full of BS.
But thanks for being upfront about it.
OP, you don't understand much about the MOTIVATION of players choosing a mmo-RPG over a FPS.
It is...the PROGRESSION. Any change that makes a player regresses is directly hurting that player motivation, the very reason he picks a mmo-RPG. Players don't want to regress, they want to progress. If a player kills X, he wants to kill X+1 next time, not X-2.
Game balancing is irrelevant if the progression is hurted. Just like socialisation is irrelevant to peoples who are starving/doesn't have a roof. The progression is the basic, the very foundation of the player motivation...harming the progression is very ill thinked.
Challenges and game balancing are...side orders. Not the main course. The main course, it is the progression. Thereby, any nerf is nearly always a mistake.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
No I am not.
However, you can't make a player move backward. This is against the very motivation of this player. Add challenges, developps more, but never, never, never, take away from a player. A player solo a monster +5 levels, fine, make it so that the next real challenge is to take over monsters +6 levels.
See, "dumbing down" implies making it easy. Nope. However, in your quests to put challenges and stuff to overcome, never, never, never, removes a toy from a player. Players solo stuff they shouldn't? Well, fine, add something for the groupers now...don't remove the solo content. And so on. 1 class is too strong, well, improve all others, don't nerf them. Challenges can be added, if something is easy, don't change it, you manage to fails to do what you want, but never, never, never, remove anything from the players. Once they have, it is belonging to them.
Challenges are welcome IMO, not at the expense of everything else. Removing "easy content" to make it harder is not a solution; as you will invariably aggravated some players in the process, players who progress and now find themselves regressing...and are bitter about it, rightfully bitter...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
No I am not.
However, you can't make a player move backward. This is against the very motivation of this player. Add challenges, developps more, but never, never, never, take away from a player. A player solo a monster +5 levels, fine, make it so that the next real challenge is to take over monsters +6 levels.
See, "dumbing down" implies making it easy. Nope. However, in your quests to put challenges and stuff to overcome, never, never, never, removes a toy from a player. Players solo stuff they shouldn't? Well, fine, add something for the groupers now...don't remove the solo content. And so on. 1 class is too strong, well, improve all others, don't nerf them. Challenges can be added, if something is easy, don't change it, you manage to fails to do what you want, but never, never, never, remove anything from the players. Once they have, it is belonging to them.
Challenges are welcome IMO, not at the expense of everything else. Removing "easy content" to make it harder is not a solution; as you will invariably aggravated some players in the process, players who progress and now find themselves regressing...and are bitter about it, rightfully bitter...
Well I agree that nerfing should not happen. It's a sign that Vanguard wasn't properly tested and polished before release.That I cannot say. It is pretty hard to "balance" everything as intented, especially if you have many classes and powers. Sometimes powers you think where a side glance at best, becoming class-driving.
I can understand a "Fear Kitting Nerf" as in old EQ, but that is pretty much the exception that confirm the rule that any nerf is usually extremely bad. Since in the example of Fear Kitting in a wall corner, the activity itself wasn't fun, the mob runs into a wall and just run and never retaliate, that was game breaking. However, most other nerfs I think of, they where unwarranted and shouldn't have been done, as the players where still "playing" and "enjoying" the game. Such as adding summoning powers to existing creatures, bad idea...summoning is a good idea, but you don't upgrade the old creatures, unless you want to upgrade all creatures and upgrade all players...and instead of doing that, you should just add 10 levels and new zones, keeping the old content!
Devs needs to stop playing Gods on living worlds and start playing Arbiters and Judges. They are Gods prior the content going live...once live...it should take something quite seriously to bring any nerf.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
3. If you think that all characters should be equally powerful, you're an idiot.
Does that clear it up for you? 1. This insinuates developers always know best, they see the 'big picture' and players are biased.
3. You give an opinion, which must be biased. You also say we're reduced to 10 stereotypical look -a-likes, which means you're dissatisfied with with usual developer design decisions that are contrary to your piece-of-a-picture opinion. 1. Yep, that's pretty much what I'm saying. Remember this post is targeted at those whiny kids who complain about nerfing.
3. Developers implement the feature set that is handed down to them. Designers try to be inventive, but generally are restricted to using a proven formula. It's not the developers fault if the core game mechanics suck. It's the developers fault if the game is buggy.
Ah yes, the old "everyone that does not agree with me is an idiot" theme.
I just so much enjoy the posts made by the intellegencia....