I'll set you all straight- remember to grab munchies and use the bathroom first; this is too god damn long...
There are no technological limitations to getting an MMOFPS in decent working order, because it's been done- (twice; going on three times) and it was done 4 years ago; the technological framework for the game itself (PlanetSide) being laid out in 2001; 6 years ago. If it could have been done 5 or 6 years ago; it can be done several times better today without question. Forget about technological limitations- it's not that there aren't any- it's just that they are not an impediment to the development of a functional MMOFPS.
There is long term market potential for a pay-to-play MMOFPS game numbering in the hundreds of thousands. There are without a doubt over 10 million FPS gamers world wide. If you check the sales of major FPS titles over the years; you'll find sales figures in the millions of copies per game; with millions more copies pirated- but even pirates are potential customers. How are pirates potential customers? Because why is it the P2P music scene goes bust; and then iTunes launches and sells a billion songs in no time flat? Not all pirates are pirates all of the time.
So what's gonna get all these people to pay a monthly fee to play an MMOFPS game? Well first off let me say they may not have to. In-game advertising is here now; and gaining traction as advertisers look for other ways to push their products with lackluster radio markets and the advent of Tivo and such. The cost of buying space or time for an advertisement varies with the form of media in which the ad appears. On television, a typical going rate is 10 dollars per every 1,000 viewers; per 30 seconds. In games with hundreds of thousands of subscribers; and possibly tens of thousands online at any given time- you can actually make more money by selling advertising than you can by charging a monthly fee.
If you charge 1,000 people 15 dollars a month. You are always going to get 15,000 dollars at the end of every month. But if you take those same 1,000 people; averaging 100 users online at any given time and with only 25% of their time spent online exposing them to advertising; you make 21,600 dollars per month using the traditional television's rate.
FPS gamers are also far less likely to care about the presence of in-game advertising than MMORPG fantasy escapists. And then there's always hybrid business models. It doesn't have to be 15 dollars a month; or paid advertising- it can be 5 dollars a month and some paid advertising; and so on.
So anyhow- if FPS gamers had to pay 15 dollars a month to play an MMOFPS game would they pay it? I would. (and did for 3 years) Many FPS gamers are 20 somethings; and many are older still. If these folks can't spare 15 dollars a month on entertainment; than they have bigger problems to worry about- like getting a job. Most folks who play FPS games have money to burn as it is; regardless of how old they are- due to the need for the latest and greatest in home computing performance.
As far as what conceptual MMOFPS has to offer over regular old FPS with small player run servers- it depends on who's made the MMOFPS and it's gameplay principles. It could be a complete waste of most FPS gamers time; or it could be the crack that makes them forget about cocaine, relatively speaking. There are some constants that MMOFPS would have over FPS regardless of design- and that's massive battles, prompt and fairly permanent elimination of cheaters, continued development/support/bug fixes, a broader stage and scale on which to play, and ultimately a real challenge and sense of purpose as objectives continually change with every move of the opposing the side.
In short, MMOFPS if designed properly gets to be everything that's good about FPS; without the lack of depth or meaningful gameplay beyond score the most points in a round.
Which finally brings me to why MMOFPS games aren't already successful...
PlanetSide was a complete and abysmal failure by one of the most successful companies in the MMO industry. Read that last sentence again. PlanetSide failure. SOE successful. You wanted your answer? That's it- right there. That is what's turning off all the publishers and big time entertainment software companies from touching MMOFPS for fear of catching AIDS. These gaming industry folks are sitting around scratching their heads wondering: "How can SOE, one of the most successful MMO companies in the industry, have such a complete bomb like PlanetSide?"
They've come to the same conclusions many of the people in this thread have; the idea or concept itself is flawed, there are technological limitations, there is no market for it- etc- and writing it off. Why? Because they automatically assume that since SOE has been successful in the past; than it must be the fault of this new and unproven product. Many subscribers who stood by the sinking ship that was PlanetSide for years- (the ship HAS sunk; if you're still there you're now holding your breath on a sunken ship...)will tell you that SOE continually neglected PlanetSide- to the point where the game would have failed no matter what kind of game it was. It could have been EverQuest, it could have been World of WarCraft, it could have been any game...
but SOE didn't advertise it, didn't plug it, didn't maintain it, didn't develop it, didn't correct glaring problems, and just didn't care about it. That is why PlanetSide utterly failed to bring in more money than a half assed indy MMORPG project.
So does that answer your question? There is little to no interest in MMOFPS games because SOE launched a failed one. SOE is very successful so this makes industry folks apprehensive right off the bat. And yes, making another MMORPG clone requiring zero innovation will make you more money than wading into murky waters that offer little hope of financial gain based on existing results.
MMOFPS is gonna be a winner, and it is going to quickly catch up to MMORPG in terms of market share of PC gaming once it blows up. SOE dropped the ball; and most publishers and game developers don't have balls- that's the only thing that's held MMOFPS back, I'm positive.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Wait a minute? Did the OP say MMOFPS meets EverQuest??? What the fuck?
Whatever the hell you're talking about- that's always gonna be a niche market. But hey, if MMOFPS takes off for FPS gamers (as it needs to in order to be initially successful to create the buzz, the critical mass necessary to warrant the attention of the industry) you'll eventually see all kinds of twists on MMOFPS... no matter how stupid they sound. So yeah, now i've answered your question.
Before I think I answered the question: "what are the roadblocks to MMOFPS, as a genre?" Not: "Why can't BF2 meet EverQuest?" I think I misread your question because it defies the way my brain works with the subject- and blew a stupified fuse making me replace your question with something that sounded like it could possibly exist in my universe.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Thanks Tunabun, that was the kind of answer I was expecting and searching for. Everyone else chiming in about design issues and gamer psychology; thanks, but I already have my own BS opinion.
Yeah I would also like to thank Tunabun for that response this is something I have been wondering for a while myself..
But it does seem the future is bright for us that want FPS type MMORPG's with alot comming out in the next several years.. Just of the top of my head we have:
Huxley
Twilight War (Back from the dead)
Fallen Earth
TCOS
Darkfall
Versus (if it is still comming out)
The new SOE SPY MMO appears to be a FPS MMO going by what was said and seen at the short demo.
And I will bet big money that the new Warhammer MMO will be a FPS style gameplay as well.
There is also another that im leaving out, I forgot the name of it but its out there.
So the future looks very bright for those of us that are into FPS style MMO's.
P.S for the love of god Tabula Rasa is not a MMO with FPS combat.. Its tab and target like every other MMORPG out there.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
An advanced FPS, with lots of hitboxes, and lost of customised models is going to use a lot of bandwidth than bog standard MMO's. The calculation of automatic fire is also going to require a larger amount of CPU capacity than melee combat.
It needs a bigger server to run.
A more basic system like Planetside works nicely, but if you were used to playing Battlefield or Quake, the lag and the accuracy of your fire are going to upset you. Computer power has advanced/ become cheaper since Planetside, so there isn't really any reason why an improvement couldn't be done. A lot of of that can be mitigated by good level design and instancing to prevent players from being able to view or hear large numbers of other players due to the layout of the enviroment.
Joint Ops was capabale of running 150 man instances on pretty domestic equipment, so something worthwhile can be done.
@Snakey, I'm happy to play on any ping up to 130. At 150 i'm starting to get annoyed by it. I've played competatively and topped ladders at this ping. It's not an issue for me.
I just remembered, someone may have mentioned this already but there is already a sort of Everquest meets FPS. And that was the counterstrike mod. I think you earn exp and you use that exp on certain abilities if I recall. Though, don't think it's persistant.
Anyway, how do you imagine a persistant fps to be? One with persistant bases like Planetside or one that you can advance so that you gain new abilities and are therefore better than people who have just started the game? Or something else?
Wait a minute? Did the OP say MMOFPS meets EverQuest??? What the fuck? Whatever the hell you're talking about- that's always gonna be a niche market. But hey, if MMOFPS takes off for FPS gamers (as it needs to in order to be initially successful to create the buzz, the critical mass necessary to warrant the attention of the industry) you'll eventually see all kinds of twists on MMOFPS... no matter how stupid they sound. So yeah, now i've answered your question. Before I think I answered the question: "what are the roadblocks to MMOFPS, as a genre?" Not: "Why can't BF2 meet EverQuest?" I think I misread your question because it defies the way my brain works with the subject- and blew a stupified fuse making me replace your question with something that sounded like it could possibly exist in my universe.
Relax bud, I'm not asking for elves and goblins carrying around bazooka's. When I say EQ meets BF2, I'm talking about a FPS friendly genre like military, post apocalyptic, or sci-fi with things like PVE content and deep character development.
I realize this is a pretty general statement, but if I wanted to drop design docs on people for their input, I'd just send them over to Perry at Acclaim and cross my fingers.
Aside from all that crap, if people here need a line drawn in the sand; I'll go on the record and say a properly designed and exectued MMOFPS can draw the kinds of numbers that Blizz is enjoying. It's not a matter of if, it's simply a matter of when.
I just remembered, someone may have mentioned this already but there is already a sort of Everquest meets FPS. And that was the counterstrike mod. I think you earn exp and you use that exp on certain abilities if I recall. Though, don't think it's persistant. Anyway, how do you imagine a persistant fps to be? One with persistant bases like Planetside or one that you can advance so that you gain new abilities and are therefore better than people who have just started the game? Or something else?
I actually imagine the game having both. On the PvP side, game design would be similar to planetside in gaining objectives, but with longer lasting effects and benefits rather then I took your base and 10 minutes later you take it right back. Solo, group, and raid PvE content for characters to grind xp or skills on as well as gather resources and obtain items.
Character advancement through levels and skills. Allowing characters to progress their stats, skills, gear, etc and open up more PvE content as well as compete at higher levels of PvP.
I'm not thinking of a game with an even playing field, if someone puts in the time and effort they will get the benefits. At the same time I'm not looking for a design where any player that is lvl 100 can stroll onto the battlefield and grief 20 players that are only lvl 5. There would have to be mechanics in place, like level limits on the battlefields or scaling player power to avoid griefing.
You could design rules all day long on how to make a game like this feasible, but the bottom line is you would have to make it and then do a huge amount of balancing to ensure gameplay wasn't fubar.
I realize this isn't everyones cup of tea, but just like in real life, people like having advantages and hard work payoff. Those are the gamers this game would be marketed and maintained for.
Comments
planetside, GunzOnline, Warrock, WW2 Online, and then Tabula Rasa coming and Huxley. So not all is bleak.
Tabula rasa doesn't count because it uses a form of dice rolling attacks typical of rpgs and not fps games.
I'll set you all straight- remember to grab munchies and use the bathroom first; this is too god damn long...
There are no technological limitations to getting an MMOFPS in decent working order, because it's been done- (twice; going on three times) and it was done 4 years ago; the technological framework for the game itself (PlanetSide) being laid out in 2001; 6 years ago. If it could have been done 5 or 6 years ago; it can be done several times better today without question. Forget about technological limitations- it's not that there aren't any- it's just that they are not an impediment to the development of a functional MMOFPS.
There is long term market potential for a pay-to-play MMOFPS game numbering in the hundreds of thousands. There are without a doubt over 10 million FPS gamers world wide. If you check the sales of major FPS titles over the years; you'll find sales figures in the millions of copies per game; with millions more copies pirated- but even pirates are potential customers. How are pirates potential customers? Because why is it the P2P music scene goes bust; and then iTunes launches and sells a billion songs in no time flat? Not all pirates are pirates all of the time.
So what's gonna get all these people to pay a monthly fee to play an MMOFPS game? Well first off let me say they may not have to. In-game advertising is here now; and gaining traction as advertisers look for other ways to push their products with lackluster radio markets and the advent of Tivo and such. The cost of buying space or time for an advertisement varies with the form of media in which the ad appears. On television, a typical going rate is 10 dollars per every 1,000 viewers; per 30 seconds. In games with hundreds of thousands of subscribers; and possibly tens of thousands online at any given time- you can actually make more money by selling advertising than you can by charging a monthly fee.
If you charge 1,000 people 15 dollars a month. You are always going to get 15,000 dollars at the end of every month. But if you take those same 1,000 people; averaging 100 users online at any given time and with only 25% of their time spent online exposing them to advertising; you make 21,600 dollars per month using the traditional television's rate.
FPS gamers are also far less likely to care about the presence of in-game advertising than MMORPG fantasy escapists. And then there's always hybrid business models. It doesn't have to be 15 dollars a month; or paid advertising- it can be 5 dollars a month and some paid advertising; and so on.
So anyhow- if FPS gamers had to pay 15 dollars a month to play an MMOFPS game would they pay it? I would. (and did for 3 years) Many FPS gamers are 20 somethings; and many are older still. If these folks can't spare 15 dollars a month on entertainment; than they have bigger problems to worry about- like getting a job. Most folks who play FPS games have money to burn as it is; regardless of how old they are- due to the need for the latest and greatest in home computing performance.
As far as what conceptual MMOFPS has to offer over regular old FPS with small player run servers- it depends on who's made the MMOFPS and it's gameplay principles. It could be a complete waste of most FPS gamers time; or it could be the crack that makes them forget about cocaine, relatively speaking. There are some constants that MMOFPS would have over FPS regardless of design- and that's massive battles, prompt and fairly permanent elimination of cheaters, continued development/support/bug fixes, a broader stage and scale on which to play, and ultimately a real challenge and sense of purpose as objectives continually change with every move of the opposing the side.
In short, MMOFPS if designed properly gets to be everything that's good about FPS; without the lack of depth or meaningful gameplay beyond score the most points in a round.
Which finally brings me to why MMOFPS games aren't already successful...
PlanetSide was a complete and abysmal failure by one of the most successful companies in the MMO industry. Read that last sentence again. PlanetSide failure. SOE successful. You wanted your answer? That's it- right there. That is what's turning off all the publishers and big time entertainment software companies from touching MMOFPS for fear of catching AIDS. These gaming industry folks are sitting around scratching their heads wondering: "How can SOE, one of the most successful MMO companies in the industry, have such a complete bomb like PlanetSide?"
They've come to the same conclusions many of the people in this thread have; the idea or concept itself is flawed, there are technological limitations, there is no market for it- etc- and writing it off. Why? Because they automatically assume that since SOE has been successful in the past; than it must be the fault of this new and unproven product. Many subscribers who stood by the sinking ship that was PlanetSide for years- (the ship HAS sunk; if you're still there you're now holding your breath on a sunken ship...)will tell you that SOE continually neglected PlanetSide- to the point where the game would have failed no matter what kind of game it was. It could have been EverQuest, it could have been World of WarCraft, it could have been any game...
but SOE didn't advertise it, didn't plug it, didn't maintain it, didn't develop it, didn't correct glaring problems, and just didn't care about it. That is why PlanetSide utterly failed to bring in more money than a half assed indy MMORPG project.
So does that answer your question? There is little to no interest in MMOFPS games because SOE launched a failed one. SOE is very successful so this makes industry folks apprehensive right off the bat. And yes, making another MMORPG clone requiring zero innovation will make you more money than wading into murky waters that offer little hope of financial gain based on existing results.
MMOFPS is gonna be a winner, and it is going to quickly catch up to MMORPG in terms of market share of PC gaming once it blows up. SOE dropped the ball; and most publishers and game developers don't have balls- that's the only thing that's held MMOFPS back, I'm positive.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Wait a minute? Did the OP say MMOFPS meets EverQuest??? What the fuck?
Whatever the hell you're talking about- that's always gonna be a niche market. But hey, if MMOFPS takes off for FPS gamers (as it needs to in order to be initially successful to create the buzz, the critical mass necessary to warrant the attention of the industry) you'll eventually see all kinds of twists on MMOFPS... no matter how stupid they sound. So yeah, now i've answered your question.
Before I think I answered the question: "what are the roadblocks to MMOFPS, as a genre?" Not: "Why can't BF2 meet EverQuest?" I think I misread your question because it defies the way my brain works with the subject- and blew a stupified fuse making me replace your question with something that sounded like it could possibly exist in my universe.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Yeah I would also like to thank Tunabun for that response this is something I have been wondering for a while myself..
But it does seem the future is bright for us that want FPS type MMORPG's with alot comming out in the next several years.. Just of the top of my head we have:
Huxley
Twilight War (Back from the dead)
Fallen Earth
TCOS
Darkfall
Versus (if it is still comming out)
The new SOE SPY MMO appears to be a FPS MMO going by what was said and seen at the short demo.
And I will bet big money that the new Warhammer MMO will be a FPS style gameplay as well.
There is also another that im leaving out, I forgot the name of it but its out there.
So the future looks very bright for those of us that are into FPS style MMO's.
P.S for the love of god Tabula Rasa is not a MMO with FPS combat.. Its tab and target like every other MMORPG out there.
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
An advanced FPS, with lots of hitboxes, and lost of customised models is going to use a lot of bandwidth than bog standard MMO's. The calculation of automatic fire is also going to require a larger amount of CPU capacity than melee combat.
It needs a bigger server to run.
A more basic system like Planetside works nicely, but if you were used to playing Battlefield or Quake, the lag and the accuracy of your fire are going to upset you. Computer power has advanced/ become cheaper since Planetside, so there isn't really any reason why an improvement couldn't be done. A lot of of that can be mitigated by good level design and instancing to prevent players from being able to view or hear large numbers of other players due to the layout of the enviroment.
Joint Ops was capabale of running 150 man instances on pretty domestic equipment, so something worthwhile can be done.
@Snakey, I'm happy to play on any ping up to 130. At 150 i'm starting to get annoyed by it. I've played competatively and topped ladders at this ping. It's not an issue for me.
I just remembered, someone may have mentioned this already but there is already a sort of Everquest meets FPS. And that was the counterstrike mod. I think you earn exp and you use that exp on certain abilities if I recall. Though, don't think it's persistant.
Anyway, how do you imagine a persistant fps to be? One with persistant bases like Planetside or one that you can advance so that you gain new abilities and are therefore better than people who have just started the game? Or something else?
Relax bud, I'm not asking for elves and goblins carrying around bazooka's. When I say EQ meets BF2, I'm talking about a FPS friendly genre like military, post apocalyptic, or sci-fi with things like PVE content and deep character development.
I realize this is a pretty general statement, but if I wanted to drop design docs on people for their input, I'd just send them over to Perry at Acclaim and cross my fingers.
Aside from all that crap, if people here need a line drawn in the sand; I'll go on the record and say a properly designed and exectued MMOFPS can draw the kinds of numbers that Blizz is enjoying. It's not a matter of if, it's simply a matter of when.
I actually imagine the game having both. On the PvP side, game design would be similar to planetside in gaining objectives, but with longer lasting effects and benefits rather then I took your base and 10 minutes later you take it right back. Solo, group, and raid PvE content for characters to grind xp or skills on as well as gather resources and obtain items.
Character advancement through levels and skills. Allowing characters to progress their stats, skills, gear, etc and open up more PvE content as well as compete at higher levels of PvP.
I'm not thinking of a game with an even playing field, if someone puts in the time and effort they will get the benefits. At the same time I'm not looking for a design where any player that is lvl 100 can stroll onto the battlefield and grief 20 players that are only lvl 5. There would have to be mechanics in place, like level limits on the battlefields or scaling player power to avoid griefing.
You could design rules all day long on how to make a game like this feasible, but the bottom line is you would have to make it and then do a huge amount of balancing to ensure gameplay wasn't fubar.
I realize this isn't everyones cup of tea, but just like in real life, people like having advantages and hard work payoff. Those are the gamers this game would be marketed and maintained for.
Never mind this post. I'm removing a bad suggestion.