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and PvE or raiding? like wow?
fatal510
Member Posts: 13
so will there be any PvE or Raiding like wow?
Comments
As for raiding, there will be some, but likely not on the scale of 40-man raids that WoW has become (in)famous for. The focus is mostly on RvR, and one can supposedly gain all the loot and experience one needs from that. Of course, some raid supplementation might provide some perks, but I doubt they will be large, if they exist at all. No real word on that yet, from what I have read/watched.
I sort of envision the raiding benefits to not weigh too heavily on the RvR game, as I do not think Mythic wants the following scenario to occur:
Player wants to RvR. Player gets ass kicked by people with raid gear. Player raids to get gear. Player can now RvR.
I do not think the middle two parts are in the design. Mythic seems to want people to be able to dive in to RvR without a huge amount of preparation, which makes sense, as if one wants to RvR, why should one be forced to raid?
Proud Member of Mongbat
PvE will probably be limited to a full group or two.
Q:Will there be a lot of end game PvE?
Sanya:There will be plenty of PVE, but if you mean “a lot of high level PVE requiring big raid forces,” then no – that is not what our game will do best.
Seriously though, this game is about WAR! PVP/RVR is the focus. And it is what a lot of us have been waiting for. I played WoW from release and have started/quit about 4 times since then. The problem is, I don't like huge raids that involve static encounters that you have to memorize what to do exactly at each minute of the battle, it takes the fun and surprise out of it (now granted, the first time through a huge raiding instance is fun, but it loses its appeal quickly). I enjoyed battlegrounds while they were balanced (and by balanced I mean everyone was close to equally geared). The problem happened when this scenario took place. Player X has slightly better gear than Player Y. But, Player Y has more skill than Player X and seems to beat him/her more often than Player X beats Player Y. Player X decides to raid for 3 months and comes back to PVP. Player Y has no new gear. Player Y can barely hurt Player X because Player X has crazy top tier gear. Player Y does not feel like disappearing from PVP for 3 months to get geared up to match Player X. Player Y quits. OR Player Y decides he can gear up and disappears for 3 months to gear up and then realizes that Player X now has better gear because he continued to gear up while Player Y was trying to gear up. etc etc.. and it continues. All it does is take players out of PVP/RvR so they can try to gear up to have an advantage in PVP/RvR. I am looking forward to this element of the cycle being removed.
Tired of WoW, but want a game just like WoW? Lol, just kidding with you. Anyway, let's see:
Vanguard is primarily a PvE game. It's out now, but in its current condition I wouldn't recommend it yet. Maybe in a couple months. Then again, it may be circling the drain, and you wouldn't want to jump onto a doomed game. Vanguard requires a lot of grouping, and requires a lot grinding. The fans call it meaningful gameplay. I call it tedioum. To me, the game would be a total failure, if it wasn't for the awesome crafting system and the fun Class concepts.
Ever try City of Heroes/Villans? Guild Wars? I bit different from WoW, but still good games.
Lord of the Rings Online is almost a WoW clone in Middle Earth wrapping. On the plus side, it looks stunning, has a lot of content, and has a central story that makes the player feel involved. On the negative side, classes are a bit bland, and only one faction exists.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
"I actually cook my meat with nothing but my burning hatred for vegetables"
No thx last thing we want is some stupid raid u have to be on the waiting list to get the items like WoW. If I am in the raid I want to roll for items in that raid like Daoc. Taking out Glacier Giant and Green Knight was fun raid when u get 200+ ppl together to take on 1 mob unlike WoW all u get is 40 and u have to be on the waiting list just to join the raid.
"I actually cook my meat with nothing but my burning hatred for vegetables"
Age of Conan will give you what you're looking for. The content developer of AoC has made a number of posts in which he went to great lengths to defend the legitimacy of the "Big PvE Raid" type of content as the most deserving of the best loot, most challenging, etc.
PvE to level up and gear up. And then there is a PvP area called the border kingdoms in which there will be guild vs. guild fighting.
Age of Conan will give you what you're looking for. The content developer of AoC has made a number of posts in which he went to great lengths to defend the legitimacy of the "Big PvE Raid" type of content as the most deserving of the best loot, most challenging, etc.
PvE to level up and gear up. And then there is a PvP area called the border kingdoms in which there will be guild vs. guild fighting.
Well, this simplified my next choice of MMORPG even more. I already was not interested in AoC but this nailed the lid on the coffin.I never have understood why people like the hassle of assembling 40 people to do something, when it seems as though the same thing could be done with 10 or less just on a 1/4 scale such that the same skill and such would be necessary. Then again, seeing as the most popular game right now is WoW, clearly there are people who do enjoy this.
Not to play WoW cheerleader, but Blizzard did listen to the complaints about their raids, and allieviated some of the problem in the Burning Crusade. Gone are the 5 hour, 40-man raids. The largest raid in BC is 25, and the dungeons are broken up into smaller segments so you can finish one up in just an hour or two. The gear reliance is still there, and that's not going to change. As a PvE game, it's not that big a deal. The only people that'll suffer are casual PvPers.
I did always hate the sheer power of gear in WoW, though. A character with 6,000 mana may be getting almost 4,000 of that from their gear! That's insane! I'm hoping that the gear in WAR won't have such steep bonuses in the endgame.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
You do know WoW did 40 mans because they thought that other games Raids were too big? It is hard enough getting 40 people to raid let alone 100 or 200, and WoW has millions of subscribers.... Just recently (with the Burning Crusades) WoW reduced the numbers of for the end game raids to a max of 25 (except in the original instances). That should significantly reduce the need for the "waiting list"
And the waiting list your talking about is called DRAGON KILL POINTS or DKP as its better known, its a holdover from EQ.
AND YOU DON'T WANT GOT ME STARTED ON DKP!
I despise DKP with a passion and an intensity I usually save for Paris Hilton wannabes!
Your should be able to roll on an item you need in WoW if it drops. I don't want to here the excuses about "it takes time and effort to set up a raid, blah blah blah". I put as much effort on that night into that raid as the next guy.
Your reward for raiding more often is the chance to get to roll on an item more often than those who don't, yes its frustrating to have to roll against someone who has only been there once, but if you raid a hundred times, you have a 99 more potential chances to roll on that item.
Its just a big freaking security blanket to get people to participate on a regular basis, and to keep insecure hardcore types happy in their superiority'
I can only raid once in a while because of my illness, should I be shafted out of endgame loot because your to insecure to roll?
IF you can raid on a regular basis that is your reward, you can raid more often and get more chances to get the loot. Its not cool to screw over someone else just because its frustrating to have to roll and not be guaranteed an item.
Errr... I think I just dribbled a little bit of insane on my chin.... Sorry... back to the subject
Raids will not be the same in WAR as far as I know, whether or not DKP will come along for the ride I have no idea.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Apparently not!
But I disagree with you somewhat. Having to lose a /roll to some first-timer, when you've already lost /rolls on the same item 23 times before just isn't fun. Especially when that person just joined the guild, and leaves after a few weeks. The sad fact is, people raid in WoW to get that loot. They aren't doing for fun, that's for sure! 40 times into MC, with all the organization and planning involved, plus the fact that you spend the night spamming the same three skills on mobs that you've memorized? No, no one is there for fun.
I don't blame the DKP systems. Yeah, some are less fair than others. Zero-sum is pretty fair, and although I've not seen it in action, I've heard good things about EPGP. A lot of people dislike them because they feel they shouldn't have to be "forced" to make long-term commitments to a guild, or because the love the thrill of pure random chance, and sometimes because they don't understand some of the underlying math involved.
But as I said, I don't blame the DKP. I blame the raiding system itself. All the best loot is (was) tucked away into instances that were difficult to get a group together for, and the probability of getting it was low. And worse, there were no alternatives, no other form of advancement.
I've been a long proponent of "group rewards for group effort." You get 40 (25) people together, whip them into a cohesive fighting group, and defeat something none of you could have on your own! But your rewards are individual items that you then have to fight over? It's ridiculous! If a group works together, they should get sharable rewards. Longterm buffs that stay in effect outside the instance. Trophies that can be displayed, either on your character or in their home (obviously not talking about WoW anymore). Ingame recognition from NPCs, or postings on a acheivement board. Temporary access to new questgivers and special vendors. The number of possibilities is too long to list here!
DKP wouldn't be used in a game where gear was already fairly distributed amongst players, and where gear isn't vastly overpowered. I like that WAR distributes gear in many ways, like the Influence system, or loot piles in sieged cities. People who fight together, shouldn't have to fight each other for items.
Whew! The topic of rewards is one I'm very interested in. Sorry for ranting.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
As have I, but sadly, developers do not like such systems, because they are bad for longevity.
Pretend the same 40 people do the same raid and each time 3 pieces of loot drop. Pretend each person needs 5 pieces, and that they are lucky and never get unneeded stuff. They thus need 200 drops, which is 200/3 = 67 raids. That keeps a guild busy and paying, especially for raids with timers.
I have always envisioned a much different system, one where upon a successful raid, everyone gets to loot something (of their choosing, preferably, though perhaps that is contrived). I see it as slaying some great beast and then having access to its vast treasures; it makes no sense that some ancient dragon only has acquired 3 items throughout its years of hoarding. This would mean that those same raiders only need to do the raid 5 times now, as each time every member gets a piece.
Of course, that would not work in a lot of games, since a guild could eat content up at a rapid rate. Then again, guilds already do, they just currently are penalized for it by having to redo it a hundred times for more loot, which is not new nor exciting. But people do it anyway.
I suppose it could be altered, though, to have upgradeable items. You get a drop, like some breastplate, and then can get another drop next time, like some enchanted piece of ore, and then take them to some NPC who combines them to make something better.
In effect, you can still stretch out the same raid for a long time, the difference is that each member sees a reward every single time, which makes things fun. It really sucks to raid for a month and get only 1 or 2 drops.
I cant believe people are actually thinking of 40-man raids as BIG raids. FYI Mythics OTHER MMO, you might know it as Dark Age of Camelot, is also focusing on RvR, yet had Epic high lvl raids (in Shrouded Isles, far before the infamous Trials of Atlantis expansion) that had about 100-200 people rallying. If i was Mythic i would do about the same thing again with WAR; without EVER doing something like Trials of Atlantis. The PVP/RVR focus is there, but you still get the raiding audience, especially one that will never be satisfied by WoW because their "big" raids are 40, while DAoC's have always been epic. Raiding gear has little impact on PVP/RVR (I'd rather have Crafting have a big impact on it really). Dont confuse a focus with mutually exclusive systems. You can focus and still leave a choice.
Naturally i would expect (and demand) that Patches and Updates (and especially expansions main content) focuses on the RVR aspect, as this is the intended endgame, but giving people other things to do (like raiding or crafting) isnt bad either. Just look through the boards and you'll find people that'll actually complain about games not having stuff like crafting to give players something else to do once in a while.
Sadty, the raids were still to big. And you must consider that for MILLIONS of players, WoW was there first MMO. To them they see 40 man raids as HUGE raids when, as I have already stated, WoW made them 40 man to be a reasonable size.
Its all a matter of perspective. to the new generation of MMOers (the ones who started when WoW came out or after) 40 man raids are huge, time consuming affairs that only the hardcore were able to do.
To us old timers, compared to what we had, they were much shorter and much more reasonable in terms of time and getting loot. They were also easier to get together in comparison.
They were still way to big for casual players to get into and even if we did get in, the chances of us getting anything (especially with DKP ) was almost nil.
As Sornen and Aleel implied, rewards for all this time and effort in just about any game you played was profitable but only for the very lucky few.
From what I read they want a fairer rewards system that rewards everyone in the raid ( RVR instance ). But as Sornan mentioned, that would probably allow players to go through content to fast.
But its also the only way of geting rid of horrible systems such as DKP, and yes the DKP system is bad. It does not matter which one. Its a player made way of rewarding those who raid more. Yes its probably absolutely necessary if you have a 100 or 200 man raid, but in a 40 man raid its just hubris and a a safety net to inspire people to keep raiding.
Hopefully WAR's system will be dynamic and far for rewarding those who win at RVR, but we will have to wait in see.
If I see a DKP system for for RVR instances though, I am so making a macro and spamming feedback until a better rewards system is set up so that DKP is not necessary. Having to go through that again would just make WAR a prettier PVP oriented version of WoW to me. It would completely ruin the game for me.
Actually i think the huge size of the raids saved us from the DKP system, since ive never experienced it before smaller raids like WoWs appeared. Its hard to use a DKP system when theres 180 people raiding but only 45 total drops, of which most are only useable (or useful) for certain classes or specializations. DKP does reward frequent raiders unproportionally as was pointed out earlier. You contribute to the raid youre on as much as everyone else. For that you get the chance of rolling on the stuff that drops on the raid (which already requires that the item you want even drops) on that day, which is what youve worked for, just like everyone else. Now if you get better chances or even claiming rights to one because you did some work for another raid (at which you had the same chance to roll already) that's an advantage over everyone who did the same work you did that night.
Now some people might say that certain jobs in the raid require a lot more work and these people ought to be rewarded more. Well i dont know about your experience with that but on my DAoC servers it was commonplace for the raidleader, or a member of the raid appointed by him, to freely chose a dropped item for himself. This was actually STARTED by the players that went on these leaders raids, shouting, when it came to item lotto, that the leader should claim an item as reward for his good work and success in raiding. I've personally used this with the variety of clearly stating which item i was gonna take before the raid, so people that solely came along for that item would know that if it wouldnt drop twice, they wouldnt get a chance at it. I also added the premise that should that exact item not drop, i would forfeit any rights to a drop, either chosen OR rolled for.
Now i can see how DKP would make it easier for people to get drops that rarely fall, but in the end that just makes it harder for everyone with less DKP to get it. Now we did have a system that was basically based on usability and need. You couldnt roll for something that wasnt your class AND specialization if there was ANYONE of the specific specialization or class that wanted the item. Only if there were no "natural" candidates would it become free for all. This wasnt limited to regular equipment. DAoC had the respec stones too. In advance of the raid you could contact the leaders and tell us that you were in it for a stone. Which meant you didnt get any other item, but were GUARANTEED (Since usually more stones than people wanting one dropped) in return. (Remaining stones went FFA and people that had gotten a guaranteed stone were free to roll on these aswell). Now i could see that applied to other items too. Say theres the big amazing sword all the tanks are hot for. In advance several of them say theyre in it for the sword only. Why not make them forfeit their rights to other drops but restrict the sword (or if theres more of them, restrict the rolling) drop to only these people. That would only make the ones TRULY in need of the sword join this group of Sword pursuers. Should the sword not drop they'd have regular lotto rules apply to them, basically cancelling the forfeit.
The problem with most raids not being accessible to casual gamers or people with less than 4 to 6 hours time, aswell as the WoW first timer crowd bringing the (to more experienced MMO veterans) partially absurd rules they came up with and systems that havent been reflected on and have just been dictated by i dont know whom taken up still remains though. I can see WAR breaking from what this new crowd wants and instead fostering old styles or maybe entirely new versions by attracting more veterans to the genre as well as newcomers because of the Warhammer IP. Why i could see that happening? Because of two things: its by Mythic, who did have a rather good community for both PVE and PVP in DAoC, that generally respected each other and came up with reasonable solutions. And secondly, its RVR/PVP focused, which will hopefully turn out to attract true PvPers instead of gankers, so theres people that actually favor challenge and a test of skill, aswell as the fun of partaking in the activity, rather than the reward for it, which applied to PVE raids would mean theyre in it for the raid, not for the drops.
That being said, there will always be gankers and almost all PvP games attracts that sort of person. There are always those that get their jollies of of making others miserable.
DAoC wasn't as gear driven as EQ and WoW are since most of the good stuff wasn't a dropped item once Spellcrafting and Alchemy came out. I wasn't a big fan of the gear decay though, and that's what lost a lot of interest in DAoC for me. It was extremely difficult to make money in the early game. It became very expensive to keep your gear repaired and over time, it would break on you. That mixed in with the fact I was wearing green gear in Albion into my 40s because the Catacombs and the Barrows weren't itemized also hurt a lot. When my guild moved to Midgard it became a bit easier since we could get the higher level gear.
All of this led DAoC guilds to not need a DKP system to distribute the loot in the game since drops were rarely required to compete until ToA was released. Then artifacts were introduced and the raid leaders claimed the encounter drops making it harder for people to get Artifacts to compete. Mythic got smart though and removed the item requirement. Then DAoC went back to being closer to what it was pre-ToA. Wasn't the same, but it was closer.
I am hoping Mythic takes the same kind of path, though I would happily do without item deterioration unless it becomes much easier to replace that Spellcrafted 99% Quality set of armor and MP weapons.
Keep in mind that it wasn't really the size of raids that frustrated players in WoW. As said, 40 is small compared to the old days. No, what fueled people's ire was that raids (MC, BWL, etc) were where all the good gear was. Tier 0 stuff that could be found in the 5-mans was NOTHING compared to the Tier1 stuff in MC. Botj in appearance and in stats. My jaw dropped the first time I saw Felheart gear for Warlocks, and I knew I must have it! But the majority of today's players are casual. They don't have the time, skill, or the resources to pull 40 people together at the same time for the next 5 hours.
If the uber loot hadn't have been in the raids, the casuals would have shruged their shoulders and said, "eh, raiding isn't for me." Instead, they felt they were being cheated. Arguably, some would say that hardcore players capabable of running the raids deserve extra special rewards that set them apart from the masses. To be honest, I never thought of raids as being any sort of accomplishment. They're not hard. All you need is the ability to sit uninterrupted for several hours, and the power to not fall asleep while using the same 3 skills over and over. Oh, and the tolerance of a budha for having to put up with retards in TS, if your guild happens to require it (I HATE HATE HATE voicechat!).
So size doesn't matter. A 40-man is just as inaccessable to a casual player, as a 180-man. The real problem comes from the reward system.
And on that, I will admit that a lot of PvE games rest their longevity on the hope that people will run the same content several dozen times. I honestly don't think that devs can create new content fast enough to keep up with hardcore player consumption. They'd have to produce an entirely new instance every month to sate the ravenous horde of subscribers. I just cannot be done. So repetition is incouraged. I think Mythic stumbled onto a solution that could be carried over to other, PvE oriented games.
Influence.
We all know about the Public Quest system. Wander into a specific area, contribute to the overarching quest, gain Influence points, and then turn them in for rewards from the NPC in charge. Now apply that to WoW-style raids (in another game). A person joins a raid, does their part, and at the end of the day they are automatically rewarded with points. They go back over and over, get tons of points, then turn them in for some awesome gear (not overpowered gear, just slightly better and cool looking). This way, everyone playing is rewarded equally. No DKP needed! in addition, have some form of instant gratification reward that is shared by the group (longterm buffs, ingame recognition, vender discounts, trophies).
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
I guess there are some people out there who enjoy raiding, but I'm looking forward to WAR handling this concept in a different way - RvR.
In EQ a raid was primarily a battle experience, where you and your guild got to take on a serious challenge for some serious rewards. I always liked the idea of that - an epic struggle against a mighty foe. It was exciting, but required some serious commitment and organisation - and eventually the concept evolved into a grind fest for epic tiered gear. Gear that you had to get so you could compete on the next level tier - and so on, and so forth.
Blizzard seems to have copied that concept and turned it into the next level of grind and reward - and not everyone seems to be happy with it. Especially when they pulled the hard-earned raid rewards with TBC - well, so I heard, anyway.
However, from the sounds of it WAR won't need such grind mechanics to provide an epic battle experience. RvR will cater for that just fine, by the looks of things. I imagine there will be guilds who will pride themselves on being excellent battle tacticians, defenders or the sackers of enemy capital cities. Perhaps such regiments will provide a whole new level of roleplay and fun for the game, complete with bragging rights, levels of mutual respect - or even fear. I can imagine scenarios where my Warhammer regiment and I have to face a well-known and feared Chaos player warband on their way to invade Altdorf. Such a scenario might even prompt us to call on our High Elven, or Dwarfen friends for support. Oh, the possibilities here are fantastic.
So who needs raids when you have a concept like that? I mean.... really?