my whole thing is that the "excuses" on why skill based games don't work can really be applied to level/class based games. "they are hard to balance ... " I've played WoW, I have played EQ2, I have played DAOC .... and in all those game there were constant nerfs and buffs to classes. Which tells me that even class/level based games are also hard to balance, or maybe that we as gamer should not expect "Perfect balance". "people pick the flavor of the month ... " again every game i have played from EQ1 to WoW has this happen. As soon as a class is deemed powerful, people flock to it. I remember playing DAOC when Berserkers were "overpowered", I decided to roll a Warrior to try out midgard and what did i see, dozens and dozens of "new" zerkers. in EQ2 there are tons of swashbucklers, Necro's and Conjurors, again players showing that they will pick the FOTM. Thats the players issue not the design of the game, the skilless always want to pick the overpowered class or spec. the only one i may agree with is ... "PVE is hard to do ..." but even this is a cop out , I saw some of the larger mobs in SWG were still tough even with a skill based game. The Deathwatch Bunker was TOUGH (pre-nge) even with Jedi in the group. So i think it can be done. So if you couldn't tell i am a huge advocate of skill based games, I am tired as hell of predetermined classes, god forbid people should have to put some thought into what they are picking and if it will work together. I love the uniqueness that it brings as I am not a player that feels the need to be uber. I like designing a class that compliments my playstyle. For example in SWG i was a rifleman/creature handler, was it the most uber spec? not at all but it was fun as hell to play and gave me that feeling of being a lone gunman.
You seem to misunderstand what people are saying. It’s not that skill based games are “hard to balance” Class/level based games are hard to balance, skill based games are [b]almost impossible[/b] to balance. The are [b]much[/b] more difficult and expensive to develop PvE content for and they are [b]much[/b] more susceptible to forcing people towards specific skill selection and ideal FOTM builds.
It isn’t impossible to get around these problems just really expensive. I also find it a bit funny that you should bring up pre NGE SWG to try and counter these points because it was the poster child for all of them.
At launch EQ2 had a skill based system buried under its class system, notice how well that went. In Beta CoH was entirely skill based, and the concept was scrapped for a reason. While SWG is remembered fondly by many people it was in fact the most hated game of it’s time long before NGE hit. The people for whom it worked liked it for it’s sandbox feel, something that most people agree skill based games do well.
I personally like skill based, but it just isn't a sound solution for a MMORPG from a development prespective. Rather then having to test 6-10 classes against each other in every aspect of the game to make sure their is balance, they now have to test hundreds of templetes against each other to make sure they all balance out.
I understand that in that sense it may not seem like a sound solution, but I'll ask this question then:
What is Balance?
Does people define the game balance the same? propbably not. As I stated before, this balance issue goes with the idea of a character's general role and situational role. if a game is 90% balanced but with 10% chances you'll run into a situaion where it feel like it's unbalanced, is the game unbalances?
Just some thoughts to those who wants balance. It should be consider WHAT is balance before we can get to the actual balance...
In an ideal world, skill based. But it'll be hard to balance that.
On a different note, consider transfering. I don't know of any company that's actively looking for people with that education to do game design. They go with the tried and true comp science and graphic design types.
You have the freedom to mix and match the skills that you want. If they decide to nerf a skill, drop it and pickup another rather than starting from scratch. No matter if it is a class based or skill based system there will be favored builds on either so i think that is a moot point.
Classed based systems are terribly restrictive. They tell you what you can play, how you can play it and in what way you are supposed to play it. Easy to program content for and thats the main reason why you see it mostly today.
my whole thing is that the "excuses" on why skill based games don't work can really be applied to level/class based games. "they are hard to balance ... " I've played WoW, I have played EQ2, I have played DAOC .... and in all those game there were constant nerfs and buffs to classes. Which tells me that even class/level based games are also hard to balance, or maybe that we as gamer should not expect "Perfect balance". "people pick the flavor of the month ... " again every game i have played from EQ1 to WoW has this happen. As soon as a class is deemed powerful, people flock to it. I remember playing DAOC when Berserkers were "overpowered", I decided to roll a Warrior to try out midgard and what did i see, dozens and dozens of "new" zerkers. in EQ2 there are tons of swashbucklers, Necro's and Conjurors, again players showing that they will pick the FOTM. Thats the players issue not the design of the game, the skilless always want to pick the overpowered class or spec. the only one i may agree with is ... "PVE is hard to do ..." but even this is a cop out , I saw some of the larger mobs in SWG were still tough even with a skill based game. The Deathwatch Bunker was TOUGH (pre-nge) even with Jedi in the group. So i think it can be done. So if you couldn't tell i am a huge advocate of skill based games, I am tired as hell of predetermined classes, god forbid people should have to put some thought into what they are picking and if it will work together. I love the uniqueness that it brings as I am not a player that feels the need to be uber. I like designing a class that compliments my playstyle. For example in SWG i was a rifleman/creature handler, was it the most uber spec? not at all but it was fun as hell to play and gave me that feeling of being a lone gunman.
You seem to misunderstand what people are saying. It’s not that skill based games are “hard to balance” Class/level based games are hard to balance, skill based games are [b]almost impossible[/b] to balance. The are [b]much[/b] more difficult and expensive to develop PvE content for and they are [b]much[/b] more susceptible to forcing people towards specific skill selection and ideal FOTM builds.
It isn’t impossible to get around these problems just really expensive. I also find it a bit funny that you should bring up pre NGE SWG to try and counter these points because it was the poster child for all of them.
At launch EQ2 had a skill based system buried under its class system, notice how well that went. In Beta CoH was entirely skill based, and the concept was scrapped for a reason. While SWG is remembered fondly by many people it was in fact the most hated game of it’s time long before NGE hit. The people for whom it worked liked it for it’s sandbox feel, something that most people agree skill based games do well.
and i would argue that Class based games are also impossible to balance. Daoc is still nerfing/buffing classes and thats after what 4-5 years? WoW is still balancing classes and thats after 2 years, same with EQ2. Hell EVEN Eq1 is still nerfing and buffing classes. So that should tell people that "true balance" is nonsense and will never happen.
Eq2 never had a skilled based system, i played early beta, sure you may get a message saying "crushing skill has increased" but really its not the same thing as what most people are talking about. I couldn't be a cleric and pick up a bow and arrow and raise my skill in it.
As for CoH - I was in the second 100 or so invites that went out, very early in beta and it wasn't a Skill based system. So unless it was in alpha in which they changed it, I don't know what you are talking about.
my whole thing is that the "excuses" on why skill based games don't work can really be applied to level/class based games. "they are hard to balance ... " I've played WoW, I have played EQ2, I have played DAOC .... and in all those game there were constant nerfs and buffs to classes. Which tells me that even class/level based games are also hard to balance, or maybe that we as gamer should not expect "Perfect balance". "people pick the flavor of the month ... " again every game i have played from EQ1 to WoW has this happen. As soon as a class is deemed powerful, people flock to it. I remember playing DAOC when Berserkers were "overpowered", I decided to roll a Warrior to try out midgard and what did i see, dozens and dozens of "new" zerkers. in EQ2 there are tons of swashbucklers, Necro's and Conjurors, again players showing that they will pick the FOTM. Thats the players issue not the design of the game, the skilless always want to pick the overpowered class or spec. the only one i may agree with is ... "PVE is hard to do ..." but even this is a cop out , I saw some of the larger mobs in SWG were still tough even with a skill based game. The Deathwatch Bunker was TOUGH (pre-nge) even with Jedi in the group. So i think it can be done. So if you couldn't tell i am a huge advocate of skill based games, I am tired as hell of predetermined classes, god forbid people should have to put some thought into what they are picking and if it will work together. I love the uniqueness that it brings as I am not a player that feels the need to be uber. I like designing a class that compliments my playstyle. For example in SWG i was a rifleman/creature handler, was it the most uber spec? not at all but it was fun as hell to play and gave me that feeling of being a lone gunman.
You seem to misunderstand what people are saying. It’s not that skill based games are “hard to balance” Class/level based games are hard to balance, skill based games are [b]almost impossible[/b] to balance. The are [b]much[/b] more difficult and expensive to develop PvE content for and they are [b]much[/b] more susceptible to forcing people towards specific skill selection and ideal FOTM builds.
It isn’t impossible to get around these problems just really expensive. I also find it a bit funny that you should bring up pre NGE SWG to try and counter these points because it was the poster child for all of them.
At launch EQ2 had a skill based system buried under its class system, notice how well that went. In Beta CoH was entirely skill based, and the concept was scrapped for a reason. While SWG is remembered fondly by many people it was in fact the most hated game of it’s time long before NGE hit. The people for whom it worked liked it for it’s sandbox feel, something that most people agree skill based games do well.
and i would argue that Class based games are also impossible to balance. Daoc is still nerfing/buffing classes and thats after what 4-5 years? WoW is still balancing classes and thats after 2 years, same with EQ2. Hell EVEN Eq1 is still nerfing and buffing classes. So that should tell people that "true balance" is nonsense and will never happen.
Eq2 never had a skilled based system, i played early beta, sure you may get a message saying "crushing skill has increased" but really its not the same thing as what most people are talking about. I couldn't be a cleric and pick up a bow and arrow and raise my skill in it.
As for CoH - I was in the second 100 or so invites that went out, very early in beta and it wasn't a Skill based system. So unless it was in alpha in which they changed it, I don't know what you are talking about.
Stop tying to play at semantics, it reflects poorly on you. Balancing is an ongoing process in any MMO what is in question is how well it can be done and how much effort it takes. Skill based games take significant more development work for significantly inferior results. This is why I said they are *harder* to balance.
At release, levels in EQ2 acted as nothing more then caps on you skill. It was the number of skill points that determined everything and in fact adding 5 skill points did exactly the same thing as gaining a level. This is why I said there was a skill system *underlying* the class/level system.
You also need to do a little more research on CoH. The original system had no classes or archetypes of any kind. You potentially had access to any ability in the game, but there were broken up into groups, of which you could only select a limited number. All your abilities had to be taken from within this limited number of power groups.
I personally like skill based, but it just isn't a sound solution for a MMORPG from a development prespective. Rather then having to test 6-10 classes against each other in every aspect of the game to make sure their is balance, they now have to test hundreds of templetes against each other to make sure they all balance out.
I understand that in that sense it may not seem like a sound solution, but I'll ask this question then:
What is Balance?
Does people define the game balance the same? propbably not. As I stated before, this balance issue goes with the idea of a character's general role and situational role. if a game is 90% balanced but with 10% chances you'll run into a situaion where it feel like it's unbalanced, is the game unbalances?
Just some thoughts to those who wants balance. It should be consider WHAT is balance before we can get to the actual balance...
I've always felt that outside of PvP why is balance neccesary? Does it really matter who is the most efficient at killings quenkers? Personally I couldn't care less, so long as I'm having fun with my template.
I would have to say skill based for uniqueness. The game would have to have a lot of unique skills though. It would also be nice if I could 'configure' the skills for extra uniqueness/style. How about a game where you can create skills using a balanced system?
In the end both concepts are the same though. Even skill based you will need your skills to be at a certain level to kill the stronger NPCs or survive in PvP. In the end both concepts are a grind to get to a high level or get your skills up to max. Minimizing the grind and introducing real player skill would be a lot better. Players should be kept in the game not through timesinks but through immersion and fun.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Stop tying to play at semantics, it reflects poorly on you. Balancing is an ongoing process in any MMO what is in question is how well it can be done and how much effort it takes. Skill based games take significant more development work for significantly inferior results. This is why I said they are *harder* to balance.
At release, levels in EQ2 acted as nothing more then caps on you skill. It was the number of skill points that determined everything and in fact adding 5 skill points did exactly the same thing as gaining a level. This is why I said there was a skill system *underlying* the class/level system.
You also need to do a little more research on CoH. The original system had no classes or archetypes of any kind. You potentially had access to any ability in the game, but there were broken up into groups, of which you could only select a limited number. All your abilities had to be taken from within this limited number of power groups.
Semantics? you're the one that said Skill based MMos are impossible to balance. Well show me a class/level based MMO that is balanced? Show me a MMO that has not made any changes to any class( i have shown you many MMOs that are to this day constantly nerfing/buffing classes). thats NOT semantics thats a FACT.
EQ1 had that same exact system as you hit something with a mace you got points in crushing. But again this is NOT a skill based system most are talking about. When people talk about skill based system what they mean is being able to customize your character like UO or SWG. Where as if you want to heal and use a crossbow you can. Where as in EQ1 and 2 you could not choose your skills at all, and that DEFINES a skill based system, not the fact that you get +1 to slashing.
I followed CoH for a LONG time was very excited when it was announced. I don't remember anything about a skill based system, i remember people talking about how to make it a skill based system on the forum. I remember how there was going to be a reverse leveling system that was scrapped. I remember like i said above being one of the first 300 to play it in beta, but i don't EVER remember them talking about it being a skill based game. So maybe it was a preproduction thing that was kicked around by the developers and then scrapped for whatever reason. Maybe there was a post made to gauge opinions by a developer. Or maybe since you remember it you should dig up something to prove what you're talking about.
I would have to say skill based for uniqueness. The game would have to have a lot of unique skills though. It would also be nice if I could 'configure' the skills for extra uniqueness/style. How about a game where you can create skills using a balanced system?
In the end both concepts are the same though. Even skill based you will need your skills to be at a certain level to kill the stronger NPCs or survive in PvP. In the end both concepts are a grind to get to a high level or get your skills up to max. Minimizing the grind and introducing real player skill would be a lot better. Players should be kept in the game not through timesinks but through immersion and fun.
Truthfully, it is possible to immerse into the game world with both skill-base and/or level-base. It's the community for the game that's important when it comes to immersion and such. Skill-base you'll get people crying about templates unbalance, and for level-base you get people asking for the best equipments and such. Those are the immersion killer, especially if you just want to have fun with your friend, or even meet new people in game.
Even if the story is well made (I read the background story and the quest text in WoW, and I search online for the background story of Warcraft... Very interest story), if your in-game community is not focus on the immersion, but focus on who can kill who better, damage better, heal better, etc... You'll never be able to immerse into the game world.
Anyways, to both XApotheosisX and lomiller; although I get what you two are saying, can you guys both answer my question. I want to know what the two of you guys woulde define it.
I would have to say skill based for uniqueness. The game would have to have a lot of unique skills though. It would also be nice if I could 'configure' the skills for extra uniqueness/style. How about a game where you can create skills using a balanced system?
In the end both concepts are the same though. Even skill based you will need your skills to be at a certain level to kill the stronger NPCs or survive in PvP. In the end both concepts are a grind to get to a high level or get your skills up to max. Minimizing the grind and introducing real player skill would be a lot better. Players should be kept in the game not through timesinks but through immersion and fun.
Truthfully, it is possible to immerse into the game world with both skill-base and/or level-base. It's the community for the game that's important when it comes to immersion and such. Skill-base you'll get people crying about templates unbalance, and for level-base you get people asking for the best equipments and such. Those are the immersion killer, especially if you just want to have fun with your friend, or even meet new people in game.
Even if the story is well made (I read the background story and the quest text in WoW, and I search online for the background story of Warcraft... Very interest story), if your in-game community is not focus on the immersion, but focus on who can kill who better, damage better, heal better, etc... You'll never be able to immerse into the game world.
Anyways, to both XApotheosisX and lomiller; although I get what you two are saying, can you guys both answer my question. I want to know what the two of you guys woulde define it.
What is Balance?
well there is various types of "balance" percieved in the MMO worlds. I say percieved because i believe "balance" is a myth along the lines of loch ness monster, where you hear it constantly but probably will never see it.
PVP wise "balance" would be any class or skill template can have a 50/50 chance of beating any other class or template. (obviously if the player skill is the same as well as "level")
PVE wise "balance" would be every class is just as important to any encounter as the next one.
that said i think the only way you can have balance is if you make a game with only 1 race and only 1 class. which is probably what blizzard will do with starcraft
Semantics? you're the one that said Skill based MMos are impossible to balance. Well show me a class/level based MMO that is balanced? Show me a MMO that has not made any changes to any class( i have shown you many MMOs that are to this day constantly nerfing/buffing classes). thats NOT semantics thats a FACT.
A tip that may help you in the future. Stick to what the person you are debating with actually said instead of inventing things on their behalf. This means you dont waste peoples time reading counterpoints to things they never actually said.
For reference and clarity here is the text of my post. Notice that nowhere in it do I suggest skill based games are impossible to balance while class based games are not. In fact nowhere do I use the word impossible at all.
Originally posted by lomiller
While skill based is appealing when it works it comes with some serious baggage.
- Its hard to balance, so you end up with a handful of good builds that everyone uses. - If steps are taken to avoid builds being overpowered people tend to be as role limited as they are in class based games. While gamers may like the ability to do everything from a game design this is undesirable - Unless players are funneled towards certain builds its very easy for them to gimp themselves, again this makes the difference between skill based and level based rather moot. - *this is the important one* its very difficult to design content when you dont know what types of abilities a group will have access to. The result is that PvE content tends to be week in a skill based games. This is less of a factor in PvP games which, so its no surprise this is where skill based games have had the most success.
Basically, while skill based looks good on paper the advantages often disappear when you actually get into the details of implementing it. Once all the balance and content issues are dealt with you end up with a game that has no clear advantage over a level based game but requires more development work to create and maintain.
If you are looking for more of a PvP then PvE a skill based game can shine because these limitations are not as significant. Given that I generally prefer PvE which benefits from the structure of a class based game, so for me class based tends to work out better in practice.
Allowing free reign for players to choose skills is extreamly hard to balance. A good work around is to have a class based system with a wide range of skills to choose from, not a level based class system, a skill based class system. That way players know what they are playing, its easy to balance a wide set of skills per class, and still allows players to specialize/generalize without feeling gimped.
Another way, is to use the Final Fantasy Tactics method; which IMO was brilliant.
Still the third way is to base everything on EXP points, and the more exp you spend the more your next skill costs. The problem with todays games, they are so micromanaged that it trivializes content as has been said. To change this you need to come up with some pretty tough content right from the start, and include a bunch of really tough PvE encounters. If the inflation of Mobs is in close relation with the inflation of skills, the balance stays close.
The games Ive always had the most fun playing have been text based MUDS, mostly because they allow free reign, and do not care if you get so powerfull that you can solo all the content. The current Micro-management condition of the gaming industry has led to unsatisfied customers, and incredibly long development and tweak times.
thats great Lomiller but that wasn't the post i was responding to .... this was. notice you did use the word impossible here.
Originally posted by lomiller
You seem to misunderstand what people are saying. It’s not that skill based games are “hard to balance” Class/level based games are hard to balance, skill based games are [b]almost impossible[/b] to balance. The are [b]much[/b] more difficult and expensive to develop PvE content for and they are [b]much[/b] more susceptible to forcing people towards specific skill selection and ideal FOTM builds.
It isn’t impossible to get around these problems just really expensive. I also find it a bit funny that you should bring up pre NGE SWG to try and counter these points because it was the poster child for all of them.
At launch EQ2 had a skill based system buried under its class system, notice how well that went. In Beta CoH was entirely skill based, and the concept was scrapped for a reason. While SWG is remembered fondly by many people it was in fact the most hated game of it’s time long before NGE hit. The people for whom it worked liked it for it’s sandbox feel, something that most people agree skill based games do well.
I favor hybrids ... like old SWG. its was class based but within it skill defining. And this is the way i like it.
I like class based games that allow you to customize your character in play style as well as abilities.
Like a healer in daoc can mezz, or heal , or agument melee. , or they can do some of both or split their "abilities", spec between two.
Similar to WoW's talent tree but wows talent tree are way to simple... I know WAr had a crazy good system (it looked like ) , but they revamped it to somethign easier Still it might provide a high level of customization....
REALLY thats what i think we should look at over Skill vs Class... how much do my decisions impact how my chracter preforms and plays... and i think its should be to a very HIGH degree
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
skill. cause level just means how long you play. anyone can level up to 70 on wow but it doesnt mean your good at the game. i never got to 70 but i guarantee you if me and someone else who got to lvl 70 were the same level i could beat him a few times. bottom line level means nothing. its like what Bruce Lee says about different color belts in martial arts "they can be used to hold your pants up but thats about it".
skill. cause level just means how long you play. anyone can level up to 70 on wow but it doesnt mean your good at the game. i never got to 70 but i guarantee you if me and someone else who got to lvl 70 were the same level i could beat him a few times. bottom line level means nothing. its like what Bruce Lee says about different color belts in martial arts "they can be used to hold your pants up but thats about it".
Aye, true... Very true...
Played almost everything... Currently playing nothing... Waiting for: Darkfall, WAR, Guild Wars 2.
Comments
I understand that in that sense it may not seem like a sound solution, but I'll ask this question then:
What is Balance?
Does people define the game balance the same? propbably not. As I stated before, this balance issue goes with the idea of a character's general role and situational role. if a game is 90% balanced but with 10% chances you'll run into a situaion where it feel like it's unbalanced, is the game unbalances?
Just some thoughts to those who wants balance. It should be consider WHAT is balance before we can get to the actual balance...
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
In an ideal world, skill based. But it'll be hard to balance that.
On a different note, consider transfering. I don't know of any company that's actively looking for people with that education to do game design. They go with the tried and true comp science and graphic design types.
a class/lvling game where every one is skill based, so you can still do whatever you want, but you also have a predefined role.
gives you the option to be completely different than every one else in your class.
(thinking anarchy online)
die.
Skill Based System!
You have the freedom to mix and match the skills that you want. If they decide to nerf a skill, drop it and pickup another rather than starting from scratch. No matter if it is a class based or skill based system there will be favored builds on either so i think that is a moot point.
Classed based systems are terribly restrictive. They tell you what you can play, how you can play it and in what way you are supposed to play it. Easy to program content for and thats the main reason why you see it mostly today.
and i would argue that Class based games are also impossible to balance. Daoc is still nerfing/buffing classes and thats after what 4-5 years? WoW is still balancing classes and thats after 2 years, same with EQ2. Hell EVEN Eq1 is still nerfing and buffing classes. So that should tell people that "true balance" is nonsense and will never happen.
Eq2 never had a skilled based system, i played early beta, sure you may get a message saying "crushing skill has increased" but really its not the same thing as what most people are talking about. I couldn't be a cleric and pick up a bow and arrow and raise my skill in it.
As for CoH - I was in the second 100 or so invites that went out, very early in beta and it wasn't a Skill based system. So unless it was in alpha in which they changed it, I don't know what you are talking about.
They came from the sea and they came from the sky, Captain America is going to die!
and i would argue that Class based games are also impossible to balance. Daoc is still nerfing/buffing classes and thats after what 4-5 years? WoW is still balancing classes and thats after 2 years, same with EQ2. Hell EVEN Eq1 is still nerfing and buffing classes. So that should tell people that "true balance" is nonsense and will never happen.
Eq2 never had a skilled based system, i played early beta, sure you may get a message saying "crushing skill has increased" but really its not the same thing as what most people are talking about. I couldn't be a cleric and pick up a bow and arrow and raise my skill in it.
As for CoH - I was in the second 100 or so invites that went out, very early in beta and it wasn't a Skill based system. So unless it was in alpha in which they changed it, I don't know what you are talking about.
Stop tying to play at semantics, it reflects poorly on you. Balancing is an ongoing process in any MMO what is in question is how well it can be done and how much effort it takes. Skill based games take significant more development work for significantly inferior results. This is why I said they are *harder* to balance.
I understand that in that sense it may not seem like a sound solution, but I'll ask this question then:
What is Balance?
Does people define the game balance the same? propbably not. As I stated before, this balance issue goes with the idea of a character's general role and situational role. if a game is 90% balanced but with 10% chances you'll run into a situaion where it feel like it's unbalanced, is the game unbalances?
Just some thoughts to those who wants balance. It should be consider WHAT is balance before we can get to the actual balance...
I've always felt that outside of PvP why is balance neccesary? Does it really matter who is the most efficient at killings quenkers? Personally I couldn't care less, so long as I'm having fun with my template.
In the end both concepts are the same though. Even skill based you will need your skills to be at a certain level to kill the stronger NPCs or survive in PvP. In the end both concepts are a grind to get to a high level or get your skills up to max. Minimizing the grind and introducing real player skill would be a lot better. Players should be kept in the game not through timesinks but through immersion and fun.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Semantics? you're the one that said Skill based MMos are impossible to balance. Well show me a class/level based MMO that is balanced? Show me a MMO that has not made any changes to any class( i have shown you many MMOs that are to this day constantly nerfing/buffing classes). thats NOT semantics thats a FACT.
EQ1 had that same exact system as you hit something with a mace you got points in crushing. But again this is NOT a skill based system most are talking about. When people talk about skill based system what they mean is being able to customize your character like UO or SWG. Where as if you want to heal and use a crossbow you can. Where as in EQ1 and 2 you could not choose your skills at all, and that DEFINES a skill based system, not the fact that you get +1 to slashing.
I followed CoH for a LONG time was very excited when it was announced. I don't remember anything about a skill based system, i remember people talking about how to make it a skill based system on the forum. I remember how there was going to be a reverse leveling system that was scrapped. I remember like i said above being one of the first 300 to play it in beta, but i don't EVER remember them talking about it being a skill based game. So maybe it was a preproduction thing that was kicked around by the developers and then scrapped for whatever reason. Maybe there was a post made to gauge opinions by a developer. Or maybe since you remember it you should dig up something to prove what you're talking about.
Truthfully, it is possible to immerse into the game world with both skill-base and/or level-base. It's the community for the game that's important when it comes to immersion and such. Skill-base you'll get people crying about templates unbalance, and for level-base you get people asking for the best equipments and such. Those are the immersion killer, especially if you just want to have fun with your friend, or even meet new people in game.
Even if the story is well made (I read the background story and the quest text in WoW, and I search online for the background story of Warcraft... Very interest story), if your in-game community is not focus on the immersion, but focus on who can kill who better, damage better, heal better, etc... You'll never be able to immerse into the game world.
Anyways, to both XApotheosisX and lomiller; although I get what you two are saying, can you guys both answer my question. I want to know what the two of you guys woulde define it.
What is Balance?
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Truthfully, it is possible to immerse into the game world with both skill-base and/or level-base. It's the community for the game that's important when it comes to immersion and such. Skill-base you'll get people crying about templates unbalance, and for level-base you get people asking for the best equipments and such. Those are the immersion killer, especially if you just want to have fun with your friend, or even meet new people in game.
Even if the story is well made (I read the background story and the quest text in WoW, and I search online for the background story of Warcraft... Very interest story), if your in-game community is not focus on the immersion, but focus on who can kill who better, damage better, heal better, etc... You'll never be able to immerse into the game world.
Anyways, to both XApotheosisX and lomiller; although I get what you two are saying, can you guys both answer my question. I want to know what the two of you guys woulde define it.
What is Balance?
well there is various types of "balance" percieved in the MMO worlds. I say percieved because i believe "balance" is a myth along the lines of loch ness monster, where you hear it constantly but probably will never see it.
PVP wise "balance" would be any class or skill template can have a 50/50 chance of beating any other class or template. (obviously if the player skill is the same as well as "level")
PVE wise "balance" would be every class is just as important to any encounter as the next one.
that said i think the only way you can have balance is if you make a game with only 1 race and only 1 class. which is probably what blizzard will do with starcraft
A tip that may help you in the future. Stick to what the person you are debating with actually said instead of inventing things on their behalf. This means you dont waste peoples time reading counterpoints to things they never actually said.
For reference and clarity here is the text of my post. Notice that nowhere in it do I suggest skill based games are impossible to balance while class based games are not. In fact nowhere do I use the word impossible at all.
Allowing free reign for players to choose skills is extreamly hard to balance. A good work around is to have a class based system with a wide range of skills to choose from, not a level based class system, a skill based class system. That way players know what they are playing, its easy to balance a wide set of skills per class, and still allows players to specialize/generalize without feeling gimped.
Another way, is to use the Final Fantasy Tactics method; which IMO was brilliant.
Still the third way is to base everything on EXP points, and the more exp you spend the more your next skill costs. The problem with todays games, they are so micromanaged that it trivializes content as has been said. To change this you need to come up with some pretty tough content right from the start, and include a bunch of really tough PvE encounters. If the inflation of Mobs is in close relation with the inflation of skills, the balance stays close.
The games Ive always had the most fun playing have been text based MUDS, mostly because they allow free reign, and do not care if you get so powerfull that you can solo all the content.
The current Micro-management condition of the gaming industry has led to unsatisfied customers, and incredibly long development and tweak times.
thats great Lomiller but that wasn't the post i was responding to .... this was. notice you did use the word impossible here.
Damn, feel shameful for necroing my own post from a few month back, but I want to have some more people's opinion on this subject.
So does anyone have anything to add to this topic?
what I want is to know which one you prefer, and why.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
I favor hybrids ... like old SWG. its was class based but within it skill defining. And this is the way i like it.
I like class based games that allow you to customize your character in play style as well as abilities.
Like a healer in daoc can mezz, or heal , or agument melee. , or they can do some of both or split their "abilities", spec between two.
Similar to WoW's talent tree but wows talent tree are way to simple... I know WAr had a crazy good system (it looked like ) , but they revamped it to somethign easier
Still it might provide a high level of customization....
REALLY thats what i think we should look at over Skill vs Class... how much do my decisions impact how my chracter preforms and plays... and i think its should be to a very HIGH degree
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
100% skill based
Played almost everything...
Currently playing nothing...
Waiting for: Darkfall, WAR, Guild Wars 2.
item based
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
skill. cause level just means how long you play. anyone can level up to 70 on wow but it doesnt mean your good at the game. i never got to 70 but i guarantee you if me and someone else who got to lvl 70 were the same level i could beat him a few times. bottom line level means nothing. its like what Bruce Lee says about different color belts in martial arts "they can be used to hold your pants up but thats about it".
Aye, true... Very true...
Played almost everything...
Currently playing nothing...
Waiting for: Darkfall, WAR, Guild Wars 2.
Skill all the way baby!