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Where are the dungeons?
Aluadan
Member Posts: 118
Every time I play a new MMORPG I ask myself this as there is often none in sight, at least none to actually enjoy. Being a long time EQ player I know I've been spoiled by the dungeons that were offered there but when I look for a new solid MMORPG, dungeons are almost always non existant. As a barbarian warrior starting out in everfrost we were giving a relatively large area to start lvling up in. But as most know as soon as you hit lvl 4 or 5 you were off to blackburrow. After 3 short lvl up's I was already in my first dungeon getting actually experience the danger that should exist there. Sure there were trains to worry about but lvling up and pushing further down into blackburrow was actually enjoyable. Trying to control an area and not being over run by respawn was what I live for. You just don't see this anymore in any MMORPG's.
After getting to 15 though in blackburrow I made the tough track to get to freeport where I could bind and then take the challenge of befallen. Anyone that played EQ long ago knows how nasty this dungeon could be and I'm pretty sure they all have a story they could tell about it (this again is something that is missing from today's MMORPG's). Making your way to the 3rd floor was a tough job (unless you took the faster yet deadly route) and if you went there you felt like you actually acomplished something and in the end had a good time doing it.
I could go on and on about Cazic Thule, Najena, Solusek B, and Lower Guk but I think you can understand my point. I know I pretty much never left a dungeon zone while lvling to 50 back in the early EQ days. I just don't understand why we don't see this in MMORPGs anymore. Maybe I'm missing something and there is a game out there that does have this but I have yet to really see it.
Honestly though I know some of the problems that prevent that experience you could get from EQ to ever show up in another game. Availability of information today is so much greater then it was long ago. Fans sites will often have up maps and spoilers for anything you would ever want to know. This is often taken from betas now and you can see that already in games like WoW, which have no NDA, where they are already putting up complete quests (no I haven't bothered to look). This really destroys any sense of exploration you could ever have and lessens any danger if you know exactly what to expect. The second big problem is how little danger there is anymore. I understand that people hate corpse runs but it was something that would always keep you on your toes. There is just no fear other then losing XP, big deal. And finally the biggest problem is the lack of any great low lvl dungeons to begin with but hey, I think that was already pointed out. 
Comments
Al, I agree with you immensely, especially in the lack of punishment for death. In my EQ days, death was horrible. You'd come to your bind point naked and have to run through treacherous zones just to get your corpse. If that corpse was beside the EC tunnel, no big deal. If that corpse was in the bowels of Sol B, it was time to call a necro or gather a corpse retrieval party.
I understand why publishers have altered and lessened the death penalties. Players want to use their time playing and advancing and anything that impedes that will eventually manifest itself as "customer dissatisfaction." Regardless, I think that the negative aspects of a game (such as a severe death penalty) add to the whole. The sum is greater than the parts, in other words, and to focus on this one negative issue and make it more "player friendly" may appease a number of vocal players, but it weakens the game as a whole.
I also agree that more games need to offer a larger number and variety of dungeons. I remember raiding Najena and having to go down to kill one guy to get the key to kill the next guy to get the key to Najena's room, then gathering outside Najena's room and discussing plans before opening the door and running in. It was a rush for a teens-low 20s player to be a part of taking down a "big mob". DAoC has a similar set of dungeons in each realm that caters to players of different levels.
One thing I think is that we've seen a shift from zones and static areas to dynamic, individual environments. I'm pretty sure EQ PoP does this. I know AO and CoH do it, where you get a mission and only you or your team can enter the area. By using this approach, the game can tailor the zone to your level. It's a good concept, but it does remove the "ominous zone" from the picture. Now a user doesn't necessarily have to wait until he hits 40 before heading into that dark opening.
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Old timer.
I am really enjoying the instanced missions in CoH it is fun to know no-one can KS or be camping the mob you need or whatever. Athough I can agree with the fact that being tailored to lvl takes some of the surprise element out in a way. While it is a little different from a dungeon they do have the hazard zones which can have a dungeon like feel, I mean wander around the twisting turning paths in the woods in Perez park and tell me you aren't in a dungeon.
But I agree, there was a heart quickening fear entering befallen, or the bowels of blackburrow that I am really missing in the more recent games.
I agree it is similar the way death penalties are becoming less harsh, they seem to be trying to make the games lighter, and easier, you are no longer likely to fall down a trap door in a dungeon to a room full of nasty mobs and certain death, and when you do die, you no longer lose huge amounts of Exp and have to run naked accross the continent, preying there are no mobs camping your corpse.
It is something I have especially found with CoH, I feel a little as if someone is babysitting me. You have to reach a certain lvl before they will even let you in the hazard zones, I can't really see why. Games need risks, surprises and the choice to do what you want even if it will get you killed.
They need to have random dungeon generators... Like Daggerfall...
Each time you went in a dungeon, it was different. Even if a quest sent you to the same dungeon twice in a row, it was different. This made the game much more fun.
Hopefully this is what Guild Wars and UXO have in mind... Diablo had it in a sense, but the dungeons were just big squares...
Theres alot of people who play these games, that does not like the death penalty whatsoever, and ends up quitting these games because of the level Grind.
Theres just to many issues for there to be harsh death penalties, with interernet connections, crashes, and bugs.
I remember playing EQ, and one night, crashed at level 47 because my computer just happened to crash. Did i deserve that death penality? eh
One hour later after i got over it somewhat i started playing again, and whammo Computer crashed again. Long behold i log back in and i have lost a whole level and a 20 minute trip to get my body...
Anyways i quit EQ short after these episodes. Until the game is 100% stable, or Where all playing MMORPG's on LANS, then theres just to many outside causes for a person to suffer bad when they die.
Am i the only one who enjoys to play the games for fun? Not to feel penalized and punished. Especially when crashes, bugs, hardware issues, LAG... And ETC ETC,, are in all of these games.
The Dungeons of early EQ where great. Some great times ,even when Kunark came out...Karnors was great, the first trips into Seb when no one else was there and no one knew what was in it.
Will another game ever capture the feelings of danger and excitment I felt then? Befallen what a classic, I remember wanting the Sword that came outta there,cant remember the name.
Mistmoore will go down in my book as one of the greatest zones ever made also.
If only another game could even get close to producing the feel EQ gave me back then it would be great.
Godz of War I call Thee
Godz of War I call Thee
I think FFXI comes closest to EQ when it comes to dungeons minus the corpse retrieval part. Only problem is most of the really nice ones are never really hunted in since they are far from the main cities and during the earlier levels a lot of people just hunted in outdoor areas. In FFXI most people just went to zones where they could just say "LFG!" and get a party this pretty much progressed(valkurm/maze of shak->qufim->kazham) and you could tell on the world map as beastmen were in control in those areas
.
Anyway, even though it had dungeons it still seemed to be missing that raid feel to it EQ had. BCNM is pretty cool but... eh. They really messed up on some other stuff that turned many off before they had even passed lvl 10.
[quote]Originally posted by 7Fold
[b]Theres alot of people who play these games, that does not like the death penalty whatsoever, and ends up quitting these games because of the level Grind.
Theres just to many issues for there to be harsh death penalties, with interernet connections, crashes, and bugs.
I remember playing EQ, and one night, crashed at level 47 because my computer just happened to crash. Did i deserve that death penality? eh
One hour later after i got over it somewhat i started playing again, and whammo Computer crashed again. Long behold i log back in and i have lost a whole level and a 20 minute trip to get my body...
Anyways i quit EQ short after these episodes. [/quote]
I agree. I quit EQ over these issues. I didn't mind the death, but with such a steep level grind loosing levels was simply unacceptable to me. I don't mind some kind of punishment for death, but level loss + steep xp grind <> fun. On the other hand, dungeons are what makes RPG games fun for us old schoolers. I mean REAL dungeons and not the joke being passed as one these days. I remember in Bards Tale you would get spun around or even teleported to some unknown part! That was half the fun. EQ ALMOST captured it, but with static zone spawns, it became a bit artificial. You could time it to avoid aggro and that was no good. I think random dungeons with depth and exploration is an important element of a mmorpg fun. I check now and if a game doesn't talk about dungeons, I just skipt it. It is why I skipped horizon and many other newer games.
A few people have brought up the idea of using random generated dungeons and for the time being this just will never work. When I think of a quality dungeon I really each one to be very unique and to have a look that you won't forget. The problem with random generation is it usually losses that unique feel. Now i'm sure you're wondering how a random dungeon can't be unique and that's simply due to the fact it almost always involves taking the same textures, same structures and rearranging them slightly. Add to the fact that you usually see nice perfect right angle turns with completely flat tunnels takes away any wow factor that they could ever have. Until the day comes where you can actually generate a dungeon that has the quality of Lower Guk or Sebilis I really can't imagine random generated dungeons being a solution.
When it came to death penalties I really didn't mean for it to be a huge issue regarding my original topic. I do feel it does take away something from the danger feel of dungeon crawls but that is not the biggest problem as there is a general lack of quality dungeons in most games coming out to begin with.
FFXI just fell way short imho when it came to dungeon design. Looking back at a lot of the zones I had visited I just wasn't satisfied. It may have been due to how easy it was to get around these zones since a lot of them had limited amounts of mobs that would attack on sight. You look at the lower level dungeons and all you see is mostly a perfectly square tunnel network such as Horutoto Ruins or King Ranperre's Tomb. Later on the only decent and enjoyable dungeon was Crawlers Nest but again this area suffered from any lack of danger as a lot of mobs here were passive.
Actually, I disagree. I think you can have well designed random dungeon. Here is how it would work. You would first have the landscape, this will be static and well designed. You make it as immersive and 'real' as possible. Next, you implement random monster spawns that are static or wonder. I mean random. You could walk into a room and see 3 orcs or walk into it again tomorrow and find nothing or even possible a troll...etc. Same with wondering mobs. You implement random traps and treasure spawns..etc. The key is to create a situation where you may know the landscape, but can't predict the danger. If you know a mob will spawn 100% at point A every 32 minutes, something is wrong.