I've played many MMOs before I discovered World of Warcraft, and here are a couple things that I've noticed seperate WoW from the games that preceded it: CLASS CUSTOMIZATION. Simply put, amazing. The talent trees in WoW are very similar structurally to those in Diablo II but significantly expanded and far more intriguing. Suppose I want to make a druid, but I don't want my druid to be just like everyone else's. I have many options. I could create a character who focuses almost entirely on shapeshifting, making him much stronger and more powerful in cat or bear form then as a mere humanoid. Or I could tap into the druid's potent bond with nature and regeneration making him a skilled healer. Or I could focus on the druid's affinity for the elements and create a potent spellslinger. Often, the most interesting characters represent subtle variations on these themes. My druid might become a powerful shapeshifter, but I might also choose to reserve some of my talent points to upgrade my various healing abilities so that I can revert to humanoid form just long enough to heal myself midfight and then morph back into a raging animal. The point here is that the talent points you receive each level up aren't window dressing, you truly can customize your class in this game. There are even priests who grow so powerful in the dark arts that they become either unwilling or in many cases unable to heal anyone (often much to the chagrin of their party members who mistakenly recruit them as healers). PvP. Definitely a strong point. Smooth, fast-paced combat, great class balance. Every class has a role in the rock-paper-scissors sense--rogues, for example, are excellent mage-slayers but are often pwned by hunters if unprepared (although the above-mentioned class customization can mitigate a particular class's Achilles heel). But the classes are versatile enough that you can certainly venture outside your role quite successfully, and in fact so versatile that's it's not always universally agreed upon just what a given class's role is in the larger scheme of things. In PvP situations you can wage war as part of a group or by yourself. You can venture into the wilderness and wait patiently to ambush some unfortunate passerby, you can fight in first person shooter-style battlegrounds created just for the purpose of PvP, or you can form large raid groups and take the war into the larger cities, often with a goal of taking down one of the major players from previous Warcraft games like Thrall from Warcraft III. One of my favorite and admittedly more sinister tactics is to take my stealthy rogue to a dungeon and hide near the end boss, then wait for my enemies to arrive. When they're in the middle of the fight and think they're doing well, I sneak in from behind and assassinate their healer. I will often die in the process, but the death of their priest, shaman or druid usually dooms their party as well. Just wanted to provide some insight as to why I like the game, not everyone will agree with me but I hope this provides a little more detail.
O_O
Are you sure you played WoW? The WoW I know forced people into certain trees because the other trees were so broken or useless you were wasting your time choosing them.
PvP is smooth? Mages critting for 75-100% in 2 shots is smooth? How bout that classes with CC dominate because to classes like warriors,shamans an hunters there is no way out of them so your 3 shotted without even being able to fight back?
How exactly do you stealth to the end boss an wait for a group in an instance dungeon?
I am actually getting rid of my account permanently right now. I have been playing less and less since TBC launched. I don't wish anything bad upon the people who choose to stay. However, I hope that many of them manage to break the facade they're trapped in and escape the game, hopefully remedying whatever problems it has caused in their lives. If there is one common thread that I find about MMORPG players, it is that they are not overachievers in any way. Most of us just have problems getting to work/school and maintaining highly productive lives. That isn't a bad thing, but some MMORPGs, like WoW, can drive people into problems that are far worse than a little laziness.
I believe WoW has good points and bad points; it's impossible to fully judge the game in that sense since it is so vast.
There is one common theme in WoW that pretty much sums up the reason so many players are giving up. The grind. Blizzard has miscalculated somehow in their determination of how much grind the average player can stand and has shattered the illusions, revealing to many of us who are bold enough to look that the game is less rewarding and just as fun as routine office work. Many players will drudge on, spending several days to aquire a piece of armor with slightly higher statistics than the last and a slightly better aesthetic appeal - a piece of armor no other player will care about as they are too busy aquiring their own armor.
As I prepared to auction my account to some raiders today, I realized the mental anguish and frustration many PVEers face. The deals they tried to cut with me were so contrived and obvious, the swear words and rudeness displayed towards me reminded me of a lunatic drug dealer who failed to sell drugs to me on the street in Miami, and the way they tried to haggle was so low, so overzealous and unproffessional. Does this game suck the intelligence out of people, or is it chosen by people of lower intelligence?
I am searching for a dynamic experience, something that hasn't existed since Shadowbane. I don't enjoy a linear experience where I am chasing a carrot dangling from a stick. Also, PVE is horrible boring and I only tolerate in the hopes that it will help me PVP better. It seems that people who are new to MMOs are more tolerant and can enjoy PVE, but after several of them, us veterans get tired of PVE very quickly.
What is the difference between MMO and drug addiction? You have fun doing drugs! MMORPGs involve very little pleasure, mostly endless grinding. I wonder sometimes if there is a masochistic part in us that chooses to play them? Even the customer support offered by MMORPG companies is abusive, insane, and unregulated. They treat grown players like children. What I don't understand is how Blizzard can ban tens of thousands of linux users and manage to subdue them to the point where they won't complain. It just doesn't make sense to me how people can continue to sit down and take the beating again and again.
Wow has done nothing but shown me again and again how I can 'never' be the best. Unfortunately for WoW, I no longer can chase the 'joy around the corner' while unconsciously preparing to miss the goals I set for myself. It has damaged my spending time with my girlfriend, getting to work on time, getting to school. The game should have probably thrown a few more bones, it might have kept me a little longer - although eventually you have to realize the trick being played on you.
Mark my words - An MMORPG based on grind will not offer a happy ending for ANY player. You can't simply say "I am a great warrior" and retire - because by the next patch, you are no longer a great warrior. It is a story that never ends.
My main concern is not necessarily the theory behind grinding and the sin of creating a game that requires it, my concern is the magnitude to which people grind. The vast ammount of time spent shoudl speak for itself. Many players have spent a year logged into the game. The majory have spent about two months of time logged into the game. This is excessive in every way because I ensure you that the memories you gain from WoW will not be worth that ammount of time. Sure, some great things have happened, but they were islands amid a sea of grind. It's like the time back in junior high when bobby at EZ-burger did something really funny. Sure, it was fun, but every moment that you wasted at the crap job was worthless, and bobby's skit didn't make up for the crap you put up with.
So grinders - please stop grinding. You know you hate it. Nobody enjoys it, nobody. Casual players - don't become grinders. Stop playing the game the moment the fun stops - which might present a problem when there is nothing to do but grind as you level up, and result in you not logging in ever again.
I've played many MMOs before I discovered World of Warcraft, and here are a couple things that I've noticed seperate WoW from the games that preceded it: CLASS CUSTOMIZATION. Simply put, amazing. The talent trees in WoW are very similar structurally to those in Diablo II but significantly expanded and far more intriguing. Suppose I want to make a druid, but I don't want my druid to be just like everyone else's. I have many options. I could create a character who focuses almost entirely on shapeshifting, making him much stronger and more powerful in cat or bear form then as a mere humanoid. Or I could tap into the druid's potent bond with nature and regeneration making him a skilled healer. Or I could focus on the druid's affinity for the elements and create a potent spellslinger. Often, the most interesting characters represent subtle variations on these themes. My druid might become a powerful shapeshifter, but I might also choose to reserve some of my talent points to upgrade my various healing abilities so that I can revert to humanoid form just long enough to heal myself midfight and then morph back into a raging animal. The point here is that the talent points you receive each level up aren't window dressing, you truly can customize your class in this game. There are even priests who grow so powerful in the dark arts that they become either unwilling or in many cases unable to heal anyone (often much to the chagrin of their party members who mistakenly recruit them as healers). PvP. Definitely a strong point. Smooth, fast-paced combat, great class balance. Every class has a role in the rock-paper-scissors sense--rogues, for example, are excellent mage-slayers but are often pwned by hunters if unprepared (although the above-mentioned class customization can mitigate a particular class's Achilles heel). But the classes are versatile enough that you can certainly venture outside your role quite successfully, and in fact so versatile that's it's not always universally agreed upon just what a given class's role is in the larger scheme of things. In PvP situations you can wage war as part of a group or by yourself. You can venture into the wilderness and wait patiently to ambush some unfortunate passerby, you can fight in first person shooter-style battlegrounds created just for the purpose of PvP, or you can form large raid groups and take the war into the larger cities, often with a goal of taking down one of the major players from previous Warcraft games like Thrall from Warcraft III. One of my favorite and admittedly more sinister tactics is to take my stealthy rogue to a dungeon and hide near the end boss, then wait for my enemies to arrive. When they're in the middle of the fight and think they're doing well, I sneak in from behind and assassinate their healer. I will often die in the process, but the death of their priest, shaman or druid usually dooms their party as well. Just wanted to provide some insight as to why I like the game, not everyone will agree with me but I hope this provides a little more detail.
The class customization gets a DECENT score on my list. It isn't bad, that's for sure, yet it isn't innovative or thought provoking. It is basic, dumbed down to entertain anyone over 5 years old. It is VERY well streamlined and I applaud Blizzard for making it understandable. However, there is no space to become unique.
I have often disliked the entire idea of customizing a character and preffered the new MMO players are asking for where guilds share from a pool of characters, but that isn't factored into my judgement of WoW. Tabards don't really make a guild look alike, I would prefer to be a part of a faction where everyone's armor is the same and you fight as a single or two classed unit rather than a messy colorful mess of spread out raiders/pvpers that pull mounts out of their backpacks of every shape and class imaginable - which really dilutes the tactics. Remember, chess is simple, yet can be extremely thought provoking when it comes to strategy/tactics.
PVP. The PVP system in WoW is also decent. They get an A+ when it comes to making the game work 'smooth'. When it comes to strategies and whatnot they get a C. The game does definitely have some well-thought-out strategy to the 1v1 pvp, but it fades very quickly in any group PvP setting. Overall however, I would rate WoW PvP to be about a F-. The reason being that battles are limited to incredibly boring battlegrounds that are based on grinding (and even include PVE!), or a horrible contrived arena system. World PvP has been asked for again and again but Blizzard refuses to implement world pvp rewards beyond a silly buff. You just don't see an army charging in a line, there is no adrenaline in the PVP. I do agree with you on the smoothness point, however.
How many people of that 6 billion don't play video games?
My point exactly. Popularity does not equal quality. McDonalds has served billions of burgers to millions of customers, and their food is nothing but mediocre crap. You can't please that many people unless your product is bland enough to not offend the tastes of any of them.
One in every five people are annoying, stupid, and just plain ignorant. You realize that WoW's bound to have more ignoramous' than any other MMO to date because of it's vast subscriber base.
Originally posted by bonobotheory
Originally posted by GregPorter
You can read statistics however you want?
How many people of that 6 billion don't play video games?
My point exactly. Popularity does not equal quality. McDonalds has served billions of burgers to millions of customers, and their food is nothing but mediocre crap. You can't please that many people unless your product is bland enough to not offend the tastes of any of them.Your friend is the smartest person on the planet. Who needs a relationship when all of the women on the planet are becoming obese? As for college - why go if by the end of the year hundreds of thousands of people will be in debt for that tiny little piece of paper that everybody will have, and by then, half the jobs will be overseas. I'm not in college, I'm 19, I get paid much more than the interns in college and I live a 4 star lifestyle. It's not 5 star, but it's better than what most college graduates will live in 10 years. And no, I don't live at home, I live in my own apartment. It's called common sense, and everyone knows deep down that this 'college' thing is 'not' required to survive.
Originally posted by Pjay2k
Originally posted by MrVicchio
ZOMG another "I quit WoW thread!"
Yep. So if you are even remotely interested in why someone would not only quit the 8.5 million subscription monster known as WoW, keep reading, and no you may not my stuff.
Let's start at where TBC killed for me, WoW, see if you can relate.
TBC Launched, WOOT, we waited in the icey cold to grab our copies. That would be my wife and I. We get it, I hit 70 in about 10 days. Woot me. Then reality hit's me like a ton of bricks! TBC is pretty, TBC has flying mounts! TBC has some new spells!
And that's it. That's all the truly "new things" in TBC.
BUT WAIT! What about Heroic 5 Mans??? What about them? Lame, I have to grind instances to get a key so I can grind that same instance AGAIN! But this time, ZOMG it's even HARDER!
Joy.
Karazhan? Waste of my time, effort and money. Maybe one day it will be a 4 hour instance, but I am not going to go through it to get there. It's just not worth it. I WANT to see Mt. Hyjal, but I am not going to spend that much time on it. It's just not worth it. I haven't logged into WoW in a week, and you know what?
It feels GREAT!! I have a life! I get things done, I don't feel like I am missing out because I wasn't grinding some DAMNDABLE instance over and over again. "ZOMG, I am late logging in! I have to run Shattard Halls and hope that piece of gear drops and I win roll!"
Nope, instead I got work done around the house, did some writing and watched some movies. MUCH more enjoyable.
Personally, I cannot wait for WAR to release, because it's going to be the Anti-WoW, it's going to have PvP that means something, Quests that don't require I sign up for, and spend 5 hours grinding.
You guys that love WoW, I ask you one question, is it really worth it? Is there really a purpose to all that time spent?
Ask yourself this - was the game fun? Yes. Is it still fun? Yes. Games are made to be fun...Is grinding fun? Certainly, because in the end you have to have a reason to grind - you have to have goals - when everything is handed to you on a silver platter the game appears too easy and you quit. Think about pre-TBC and how everything seemed fairly easy. Now - think about it - if Blizzard made all of the raids 5-mans, 10-mans, and 25-mans 'max' in TBC, that means they would happen more often, that way, they could put in more room for more difficulty....
The majority of all of these 'z0MFG I hav3 all PurpZ LOLOLIP0000Pers!!!!1!1' are people who feel their wasting their time now because everybody else can have equal-to or greater gear than them. I defeated a 70 Rogue, and I am but a mere 68 Warlock. How did I do it? Skills. People complain that Rogues are immune to fear. Well, not if you know how to play. People are just pissed because they said, "Omfg it was too easy now it's too hard OMG OMG OMG". Think about EQ1 pre-Luclin, then you come tell me about how hard it was to get a raid together, wipeout, recover, etc.
No matter what Blizzard says or does to better their game, remember, people will always find a reason to be miserable with it. Why is this? Is it because people don't like T3H GRAFFPHIX or because it doesn't utilize some crappy pre-rendered world generated tool kit world? I don't know. You people amaze me with every passing day. Cry more....Ha. You were dumped over WoW? Ok, then your probably better off. In fact, men survive. We donated a rib to the female race (yes I said race, not gender) and now their consuming so much more than us.
WHO CARES.
Play WoW - enjoy it while it lasts. As for WAR - well, it's no longer Mythic Entertainment, okay? It's EA Mythic. THINK PEOPLE - EA...Destroyer of Earth and Beyond 2, gravediggers of Ultima Online, and (eventually) the closers of DAoC. I wouldn't go as far as saying EA is as bad as SOE, but - their about even.
EDIT : And for the record, after Sanya Thomas' retardation started showing on Camelot Herald, I quit playing DAoC too. Just goes to show you - females will drag down men any day...probably because of their increased breathing capacity...I WANT MY RIB BACK DAMMIT.
First and foremost, to the OP, sincere congratulations to you on realizing you have an addiction that is negatively impacting your life and taking steps to get it under control and get yourself away from your computer desk to make time for other much more important, valuable, productive, and just downright more fulfilling facets of your life.
For my own part, I’m still a WoW subscriber and still loving every minute of gameplay. Of course, I’m very much a casual player and only have four or five hours a week to play on average on maybe one or two nights a week. Some weeks I don’t play at all. My family, career, and basically every other thing in my life comes first before gaming, and that is as it absolutely should be. The idea that I’d have it any other way is ridiculous and I genuinely worry for the mental health of anyone that does.
WoW is an ideal game for a player like me with extremely limited time, because there is an abundance of things to do that can be accomplished in short bursts of time. It’s awesome that I can log on in the evening before bed, complete a couple of quests or join in for a couple of battleground contests and then walk away and I’ve only spent an hour or so. It’s something I do instead of watch TV, which we don’t spend a lot of time on either.
I’ll never achieve or earn the extremely rare items that can only be captured by grinding many hours of my life away in some high level raider’s instance, but I am completely fine with that and knew that going in. There is more than enough fun to be had outside of that to say the least, and at my gaming rate, I doubt I’ll ever see those high levels anyway. I know a lot of the hardcore players seem disenfranchised with the game since the expansion came out, but I would venture to guess that the lion’s share of Blizzard’s subscribers are a lot closer to my casual play schedule and interests than theirs.
Getting life priorities in perspective and refusing to allow any single facet of it, especially something as utterly meaningless and potentially self-destructive as an out of control gaming hobby, run your life is beyond priceless. With that in mind, the idea that hundreds or even thousands of hardcore subscribers are being driven away from a game they were devoting forty or even fifty or more hours a week to by this expansion can only be a good thing.
another blah blah blah thread what a waste if you don't like it, dont' play it
What a wonderfully insightful post. I'm sure nobody has ever thought of not playing a game they don't like. I'm glad we have you around to bless us with your great wisdom.
To return the favor, I'll enlighten you with a similar snippet of wisdom: If you don't like a thread, don't read it!
I am actually getting rid of my account permanently right now. I have been playing less and less since TBC launched. I don't wish anything bad upon the people who choose to stay. However, I hope that many of them manage to break the facade they're trapped in and escape the game, hopefully remedying whatever problems it has caused in their lives. If there is one common thread that I find about MMORPG players, it is that they are not overachievers in any way. Most of us just have problems getting to work/school and maintaining highly productive lives. That isn't a bad thing, but some MMORPGs, like WoW, can drive people into problems that are far worse than a little laziness. I believe WoW has good points and bad points; it's impossible to fully judge the game in that sense since it is so vast.
There is one common theme in WoW that pretty much sums up the reason so many players are giving up. The grind. Blizzard has miscalculated somehow in their determination of how much grind the average player can stand and has shattered the illusions, revealing to many of us who are bold enough to look that the game is less rewarding and just as fun as routine office work. Many players will drudge on, spending several days to aquire a piece of armor with slightly higher statistics than the last and a slightly better aesthetic appeal - a piece of armor no other player will care about as they are too busy aquiring their own armor. As I prepared to auction my account to some raiders today, I realized the mental anguish and frustration many PVEers face. The deals they tried to cut with me were so contrived and obvious, the swear words and rudeness displayed towards me reminded me of a lunatic drug dealer who failed to sell drugs to me on the street in Miami, and the way they tried to haggle was so low, so overzealous and unproffessional. Does this game suck the intelligence out of people, or is it chosen by people of lower intelligence? I am searching for a dynamic experience, something that hasn't existed since Shadowbane. I don't enjoy a linear experience where I am chasing a carrot dangling from a stick. Also, PVE is horrible boring and I only tolerate in the hopes that it will help me PVP better. It seems that people who are new to MMOs are more tolerant and can enjoy PVE, but after several of them, us veterans get tired of PVE very quickly. What is the difference between MMO and drug addiction? You have fun doing drugs! MMORPGs involve very little pleasure, mostly endless grinding. I wonder sometimes if there is a masochistic part in us that chooses to play them? Even the customer support offered by MMORPG companies is abusive, insane, and unregulated. They treat grown players like children. What I don't understand is how Blizzard can ban tens of thousands of linux users and manage to subdue them to the point where they won't complain. It just doesn't make sense to me how people can continue to sit down and take the beating again and again. Wow has done nothing but shown me again and again how I can 'never' be the best. Unfortunately for WoW, I no longer can chase the 'joy around the corner' while unconsciously preparing to miss the goals I set for myself. It has damaged my spending time with my girlfriend, getting to work on time, getting to school. The game should have probably thrown a few more bones, it might have kept me a little longer - although eventually you have to realize the trick being played on you. Mark my words - An MMORPG based on grind will not offer a happy ending for ANY player. You can't simply say "I am a great warrior" and retire - because by the next patch, you are no longer a great warrior. It is a story that never ends. My main concern is not necessarily the theory behind grinding and the sin of creating a game that requires it, my concern is the magnitude to which people grind. The vast ammount of time spent shoudl speak for itself. Many players have spent a year logged into the game. The majory have spent about two months of time logged into the game. This is excessive in every way because I ensure you that the memories you gain from WoW will not be worth that ammount of time. Sure, some great things have happened, but they were islands amid a sea of grind. It's like the time back in junior high when bobby at EZ-burger did something really funny. Sure, it was fun, but every moment that you wasted at the crap job was worthless, and bobby's skit didn't make up for the crap you put up with. So grinders - please stop grinding. You know you hate it. Nobody enjoys it, nobody. Casual players - don't become grinders. Stop playing the game the moment the fun stops - which might present a problem when there is nothing to do but grind as you level up, and result in you not logging in ever again.
QFT.
Time sinks != content. Games != life. When you're on your deathbed, what will be more important to you - raiding for that last piece of armor or the time you didn't spend with your loved ones for it?
another blah blah blah thread what a waste if you don't like it, dont' play it
/AGREE
yet another "SOB SOB i dont like this game" "OMG the grind is sooo boring" "PVP is sooo unfair" "The intelligence level of this game is sooo low" post
Ask yourself this, would you waste your time complaining on a forum about a company that provides fresh produce for eg. apples and they were in your opinion bad tasting?
No, i dont think you would, you would go out and buy a different brand of apples.
Thats atleast what i do, if you cant make/grow/produce/design something to my liking, i wont buy it and move on to something that i do like, not sit around and have a Sob Fest about it.
One in every five people are annoying, stupid, and just plain ignorant. You realize that WoW's bound to have more ignoramous' than any other MMO to date because of it's vast subscriber base. Your friend is the smartest person on the planet. Who needs a relationship when all of the women on the planet are becoming obese? As for college - why go if by the end of the year hundreds of thousands of people will be in debt for that tiny little piece of paper that everybody will have, and by then, half the jobs will be overseas. I'm not in college, I'm 19, I get paid much more than the interns in college and I live a 4 star lifestyle. It's not 5 star, but it's better than what most college graduates will live in 10 years. And no, I don't live at home, I live in my own apartment. It's called common sense, and everyone knows deep down that this 'college' thing is 'not' required to survive.
Ask yourself this - was the game fun? Yes. Is it still fun? Yes. Games are made to be fun...Is grinding fun? Certainly, because in the end you have to have a reason to grind - you have to have goals - when everything is handed to you on a silver platter the game appears too easy and you quit. Think about pre-TBC and how everything seemed fairly easy. Now - think about it - if Blizzard made all of the raids 5-mans, 10-mans, and 25-mans 'max' in TBC, that means they would happen more often, that way, they could put in more room for more difficulty.... The majority of all of these 'z0MFG I hav3 all PurpZ LOLOLIP0000Pers!!!!1!1' are people who feel their wasting their time now because everybody else can have equal-to or greater gear than them. I defeated a 70 Rogue, and I am but a mere 68 Warlock. How did I do it? Skills. People complain that Rogues are immune to fear. Well, not if you know how to play. People are just pissed because they said, "Omfg it was too easy now it's too hard OMG OMG OMG". Think about EQ1 pre-Luclin, then you come tell me about how hard it was to get a raid together, wipeout, recover, etc. No matter what Blizzard says or does to better their game, remember, people will always find a reason to be miserable with it. Why is this? Is it because people don't like T3H GRAFFPHIX or because it doesn't utilize some crappy pre-rendered world generated tool kit world? I don't know. You people amaze me with every passing day. Cry more....Ha. You were dumped over WoW? Ok, then your probably better off. In fact, men survive. We donated a rib to the female race (yes I said race, not gender) and now their consuming so much more than us. WHO CARES. Play WoW - enjoy it while it lasts. As for WAR - well, it's no longer Mythic Entertainment, okay? It's EA Mythic. THINK PEOPLE - EA...Destroyer of Earth and Beyond 2, gravediggers of Ultima Online, and (eventually) the closers of DAoC. I wouldn't go as far as saying EA is as bad as SOE, but - their about even. EDIT : And for the record, after Sanya Thomas' retardation started showing on Camelot Herald, I quit playing DAoC too. Just goes to show you - females will drag down men any day...probably because of their increased breathing capacity...I WANT MY RIB BACK DAMMIT.
Couldn't disagree more. Grinding isnt' fun. People dont't play to grind. People DONT always find a reason to be miserable with a game. I don't even feel linke naming the vast quantity of games that people enjoyed. I know I enjoyed Shadowbane, even runescape. I didn't enjoy WoW, nor final fantasy XI. Some games are fun, some aren't. Don't go for the catch-all 'people will always complain' line.
As for college. Yeah I agree. Alot of idiots going into business, fine arts, history are going to be living in a cardboard box. Can't say the same as I'm going into engineering - I guess the price is having to study like hell and rarely get to party like the business majors do. But hey, we make more in our internships than they make after they graduate and we get to go overseas :P. I say go to REAL college or don't go at all - college does NOT equal money unless you study like hell.
I also agree about EA. The age of MMOs is looking grim indeed.
However, GRINDING IS NOT FUN. Smart people are tired of WoW but I think Blizzard will keep the casual players as customers, as well as the hardcore. It's us 'semi-casual' gamer types that are caught in the middle of this fucking grind-fest from hell.
QFT. Time sinks != content. Games != life. When you're on your deathbed, what will be more important to you - raiding for that last piece of armor or the time you didn't spend with your loved ones for it?
I absolutely agree. I hope you don't think I was saying anything to the contrary.
How can a game thats so bad, have achieved all this?
So the game wasn't elite enough for you... move on.... and bash VG like the rest of us pls.
Reviews and awards are nothing but opinions - no more valid than my own or anyone else's (which is why I was addressing Gameloading, who seems to think his opinion is the only valid one, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot). And 8.5 million accounts means nothing. If we're going to quote numbers here, there are 6.5 billion people who don't play WoW. Should I side with the 8.5 million, or the 6.5 billion?
Point out to the guy that all the hype over 8.5 million subs means nothing when other MMOs have 12 to 14 million subs. See what kind of responce you get then.
I have to agree with this guy. WoW doesn't have the highest sub rate of MMO's on the market. Blizz just hypes it more then other games around. Success can also be measured dif. depending upon the kind of sucess you aim for. Eve runs on one server and has close to what, 200k subs? Not a lot compared to WoW, but they aren't aiming for millions. VG isn't aiming for WoW numbers either. Sigil is looking for only 500k in the first year.
WoW is just Diablo 2 with slightly more stuff to do. The devs have shown an inability to inovate or come up with original game ideas in over 2 years. Thier next update is opening another 25 man instance for godsakes. The game is the exact same repetetive crap from lvl one to lvl 70 with not a single worthwhile time sink outside of combat. It's the only thing it has going for it. The combat is fun. Shame they can't find other fun things to build on.
another blah blah blah thread what a waste if you don't like it, dont' play it
/AGREE
yet another "SOB SOB i dont like this game" "OMG the grind is sooo boring" "PVP is sooo unfair" "The intelligence level of this game is sooo low" post
Ask yourself this, would you waste your time complaining on a forum about a company that provides fresh produce for eg. apples and they were in your opinion bad tasting?
No, i dont think you would, you would go out and buy a different brand of apples.
Thats atleast what i do, if you cant make/grow/produce/design something to my liking, i wont buy it and move on to something that i do like, not sit around and have a Sob Fest about it.
No shit. We are moving on.
Considering many of us invested hundreds or thousands of hours of playtime into this game, it would be completely wrong not to have at least a small discussion regarding leaving.
The analogy just doesn't hold for that reason. An apple effects about 20 seconds of my life.
In fact, in terms of proportionality, we have spent a very small percantage of our time bitching about wow in terms of how much time we spent playing it. On the other hand, you have probably spent just as much time bitching about this post as you spent reading - which in makes you a hypocritical bitcher with a flamboyant picture in your signature. QQ more.
(And dont' say what I know you're going to say about hypocrisy, my attack on you stems from having spent countless years of life fighting ignorant idiots, not from reading your post alone)
QFT. Time sinks != content. Games != life. When you're on your deathbed, what will be more important to you - raiding for that last piece of armor or the time you didn't spend with your loved ones for it?
I absolutely agree. I hope you don't think I was saying anything to the contrary.
'What does QFT mean?
QFT = quoted for truth. That question was aimed at others, not you. You hit the nail on the head.
First and foremost, to the OP, sincere congratulations to you on realizing you have an addiction that is negatively impacting your life and taking steps to get it under control and get yourself away from your computer desk to make time for other much more important, valuable, productive, and just downright more fulfilling facets of your life. For my own part, I’m still a WoW subscriber and still loving every minute of gameplay. Of course, I’m very much a casual player and only have four or five hours a week to play on average on maybe one or two nights a week. Some weeks I don’t play at all. My family, career, and basically every other thing in my life comes first before gaming, and that is as it absolutely should be. The idea that I’d have it any other way is ridiculous and I genuinely worry for the mental health of anyone that does. WoW is an ideal game for a player like me with extremely limited time, because there is an abundance of things to do that can be accomplished in short bursts of time. It’s awesome that I can log on in the evening before bed, complete a couple of quests or join in for a couple of battleground contests and then walk away and I’ve only spent an hour or so. It’s something I do instead of watch TV, which we don’t spend a lot of time on either. I’ll never achieve or earn the extremely rare items that can only be captured by grinding many hours of my life away in some high level raider’s instance, but I am completely fine with that and knew that going in. There is more than enough fun to be had outside of that to say the least, and at my gaming rate, I doubt I’ll ever see those high levels anyway. I know a lot of the hardcore players seem disenfranchised with the game since the expansion came out, but I would venture to guess that the lion’s share of Blizzard’s subscribers are a lot closer to my casual play schedule and interests than theirs. Getting life priorities in perspective and refusing to allow any single facet of it, especially something as utterly meaningless and potentially self-destructive as an out of control gaming hobby, run your life is beyond priceless. With that in mind, the idea that hundreds or even thousands of hardcore subscribers are being driven away from a game they were devoting forty or even fifty or more hours a week to by this expansion can only be a good thing.
I have to say, if I had 4-5 hours a week available for an online game, I would simply spend it doing something else like reading or working out or something. 4-5 hours a week is simply not enough, in my opinion based on what I like to get out of a gaming experience, to justify devoting any time at all, really. I'm not a 40+ hours player, either, but if I couldn't devote at least 20 or so hours per week I don't think I could justify spending any time playing because I would not be progressing, and I would simply lose interest in the game.
We have to all be careful not to judge others based on our own standards of what is appropriate. Some people have very intense hobbies that are a huge part of their lives, while other people tend to not have so many hobbies, or not have as intensive a hobby, and spread themselves around doing various things. Pointing fingers at people and saying that they lead unfulfilling lives because they don't match one's own preferred time allocation is dangerous at best.
Dare to be differant?. I really enjoy WOW and yet it seems i am being told here that i am just following the crowd. I have tried differant games but i enjoy WOW the most so sorry not going to happen. If a song is really popular and too many other people like it then i should hate it maybe?. How siily this concept is!. Just play what you enjoy, if you don't play WOW because too many other people like it but you find it more enjoyable than the other stuff out there that would be silly.
Grind? well if you find it so much of a grind then maybe you are being guilty of playing it too much. WOW doesn't force people to get reputation within a certain timespan, that is decided by the people playing.
I am playing the game i enjoy and not because i am following the crowd and i am no way a novice to mmorpg's. I imagine a lot of people are playing it and enjoying it and aren't robots as some WOW haters would like to think. You can try and use WOW's numbers against it but i like playing a game with such a lot of people. Yeah some are idiots but wow you can actually ignore them and not have to see their comments. Generally the WOW community i see in game is pretty good in my opinion.
However, GRINDING IS NOT FUN. Smart people are tired of WoW but I think Blizzard will keep the casual players as customers, as well as the hardcore. It's us 'semi-casual' gamer types that are caught in the middle of this fucking grind-fest from hell.
You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, game developers will continue to use the current paridgm to rake in as many customers as possible as WoW has done by using a no brainer challenge to gear up and stroke the "1337 leet doodz" ego. WoW is as challenging as pulling the lever on a slot machine over and over again waiting for the "phat loot" to drop. You simply do it over and over and over again and no brain or skill are required. Maybe one day game developers will make a MMORPG that rewards skill instead of no brainer, ginding time sinks.
However, GRINDING IS NOT FUN. Smart people are tired of WoW but I think Blizzard will keep the casual players as customers, as well as the hardcore. It's us 'semi-casual' gamer types that are caught in the middle of this fucking grind-fest from hell.
You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, game developers will continue to use the current paridgm to rake in as many customers as possible as WoW has done by using a no brainer challenge to gear up and stroke the "1337 leet doodz" ego. WoW is as challenging as pulling the lever on a slot machine over and over again waiting for the "phat loot" to drop. You simply do it over and over and over again and no brain or skill are required. Maybe one day game developers will make a MMORPG that rewards skill instead of no brainer, ginding time sinks.
How do you do that, though?
The business model of MMOs is to have players play a long time. Timesinks (and grinding is a main timesink) are one way to get that to happen. Another way is to provide meaningful PvP (that is, PvP with a reason, something to defend/conquer that has a lasting impact, etc.). Another way is sandboxing it so that the players build something meaningful for themselves, and get wrapped up in that, which retains their accounts.
A "skill-based" PvE experience ... how exactly would that retain players long-term? The static nature of most PvE means that it can be learned -- with repetition what was once challenging becomes rote and becomes "farmed". How do you make a PvE experience not like that? By making it more random? By having encounters take on a more random and unpredictable nature? That would be one possibility, but it would make things harder to balance, I think.
As I see it the main challenge is creating something that people will enjoy playing for some time. Timesinks like grinding are the most heavy-handed way of doing it, because they actually do force players to inject a certain amount of time to get a certain fixed reward. PvP turns things around the other way, but most people seem not to like PvP as a playstyle, so while there is a great market for it (as we can see in upcoming titles like AoC and WAR), it's not the huge mothelode bonanza of a market that PvE is. And as for sandboxes, these are truly niche games that appeal to smaller markets.
So as I see it what we will likely see is more of what we see today, namely: a lot of games thath feature grinding disguised to some degree, a few games that are focused on PvP, and the odd one or two games that are sandboxy -- each with its own approach at retaining players.
Yep. So if you are even remotely interested in why someone would not only quit the 8.5 million subscription monster known as WoW, keep reading, and no you may not my stuff.
Let's start at where TBC killed for me, WoW, see if you can relate.
TBC Launched, WOOT, we waited in the icey cold to grab our copies. That would be my wife and I. We get it, I hit 70 in about 10 days. Woot me. Then reality hit's me like a ton of bricks! TBC is pretty, TBC has flying mounts! TBC has some new spells!
And that's it. That's all the truly "new things" in TBC.
BUT WAIT! What about Heroic 5 Mans??? What about them? Lame, I have to grind instances to get a key so I can grind that same instance AGAIN! But this time, ZOMG it's even HARDER!
Joy.
Karazhan? Waste of my time, effort and money. Maybe one day it will be a 4 hour instance, but I am not going to go through it to get there. It's just not worth it. I WANT to see Mt. Hyjal, but I am not going to spend that much time on it. It's just not worth it. I haven't logged into WoW in a week, and you know what?
It feels GREAT!! I have a life! I get things done, I don't feel like I am missing out because I wasn't grinding some DAMNDABLE instance over and over again. "ZOMG, I am late logging in! I have to run Shattard Halls and hope that piece of gear drops and I win roll!"
Nope, instead I got work done around the house, did some writing and watched some movies. MUCH more enjoyable.
Personally, I cannot wait for WAR to release, because it's going to be the Anti-WoW, it's going to have PvP that means something, Quests that don't require I sign up for, and spend 5 hours grinding.
You guys that love WoW, I ask you one question, is it really worth it? Is there really a purpose to all that time spent?
What I find so amusing is that you decided to yet another thread of "Why I quit playing WoW". Why didn't you just quit and be done with it? Is WoW worth it? To me, yes it is. I don't take this game, or any game serious enough to stop having a normal life. Great, so you read a book, cleaned your house, and watch movies...why did you stop doing that when you were playing? You got bored with WoW because all you did play WoW. Now you tell us it sucks and you got your life back?? LoL! And just think; instead of posting this garbage you could have watched a movie.
How many people of that 6 billion don't play video games?
My point exactly. Popularity does not equal quality. McDonalds has served billions of burgers to millions of customers, and their food is nothing but mediocre crap. You can't please that many people unless your product is bland enough to not offend the tastes of any of them.
One in every five people are annoying, stupid, and just plain ignorant. You realize that WoW's bound to have more ignoramous' than any other MMO to date because of it's vast subscriber base.
Originally posted by bonobotheory
Originally posted by GregPorter
You can read statistics however you want?
How many people of that 6 billion don't play video games?
My point exactly. Popularity does not equal quality. McDonalds has served billions of burgers to millions of customers, and their food is nothing but mediocre crap. You can't please that many people unless your product is bland enough to not offend the tastes of any of them.Your friend is the smartest person on the planet. Who needs a relationship when all of the women on the planet are becoming obese? As for college - why go if by the end of the year hundreds of thousands of people will be in debt for that tiny little piece of paper that everybody will have, and by then, half the jobs will be overseas. I'm not in college, I'm 19, I get paid much more than the interns in college and I live a 4 star lifestyle. It's not 5 star, but it's better than what most college graduates will live in 10 years. And no, I don't live at home, I live in my own apartment. It's called common sense, and everyone knows deep down that this 'college' thing is 'not' required to survive.
Originally posted by Pjay2k
Originally posted by MrVicchio
ZOMG another "I quit WoW thread!"
Yep. So if you are even remotely interested in why someone would not only quit the 8.5 million subscription monster known as WoW, keep reading, and no you may not my stuff.
Let's start at where TBC killed for me, WoW, see if you can relate.
TBC Launched, WOOT, we waited in the icey cold to grab our copies. That would be my wife and I. We get it, I hit 70 in about 10 days. Woot me. Then reality hit's me like a ton of bricks! TBC is pretty, TBC has flying mounts! TBC has some new spells!
And that's it. That's all the truly "new things" in TBC.
BUT WAIT! What about Heroic 5 Mans??? What about them? Lame, I have to grind instances to get a key so I can grind that same instance AGAIN! But this time, ZOMG it's even HARDER!
Joy.
Karazhan? Waste of my time, effort and money. Maybe one day it will be a 4 hour instance, but I am not going to go through it to get there. It's just not worth it. I WANT to see Mt. Hyjal, but I am not going to spend that much time on it. It's just not worth it. I haven't logged into WoW in a week, and you know what?
It feels GREAT!! I have a life! I get things done, I don't feel like I am missing out because I wasn't grinding some DAMNDABLE instance over and over again. "ZOMG, I am late logging in! I have to run Shattard Halls and hope that piece of gear drops and I win roll!"
Nope, instead I got work done around the house, did some writing and watched some movies. MUCH more enjoyable.
Personally, I cannot wait for WAR to release, because it's going to be the Anti-WoW, it's going to have PvP that means something, Quests that don't require I sign up for, and spend 5 hours grinding.
You guys that love WoW, I ask you one question, is it really worth it? Is there really a purpose to all that time spent?
Ask yourself this - was the game fun? Yes. Is it still fun? Yes. Games are made to be fun...Is grinding fun? Certainly, because in the end you have to have a reason to grind - you have to have goals - when everything is handed to you on a silver platter the game appears too easy and you quit. Think about pre-TBC and how everything seemed fairly easy. Now - think about it - if Blizzard made all of the raids 5-mans, 10-mans, and 25-mans 'max' in TBC, that means they would happen more often, that way, they could put in more room for more difficulty....
The majority of all of these 'z0MFG I hav3 all PurpZ LOLOLIP0000Pers!!!!1!1' are people who feel their wasting their time now because everybody else can have equal-to or greater gear than them. I defeated a 70 Rogue, and I am but a mere 68 Warlock. How did I do it? Skills. People complain that Rogues are immune to fear. Well, not if you know how to play. People are just pissed because they said, "Omfg it was too easy now it's too hard OMG OMG OMG". Think about EQ1 pre-Luclin, then you come tell me about how hard it was to get a raid together, wipeout, recover, etc.
No matter what Blizzard says or does to better their game, remember, people will always find a reason to be miserable with it. Why is this? Is it because people don't like T3H GRAFFPHIX or because it doesn't utilize some crappy pre-rendered world generated tool kit world? I don't know. You people amaze me with every passing day. Cry more....Ha. You were dumped over WoW? Ok, then your probably better off. In fact, men survive. We donated a rib to the female race (yes I said race, not gender) and now their consuming so much more than us.
WHO CARES.
Play WoW - enjoy it while it lasts. As for WAR - well, it's no longer Mythic Entertainment, okay? It's EA Mythic. THINK PEOPLE - EA...Destroyer of Earth and Beyond 2, gravediggers of Ultima Online, and (eventually) the closers of DAoC. I wouldn't go as far as saying EA is as bad as SOE, but - their about even.
EDIT : And for the record, after Sanya Thomas' retardation started showing on Camelot Herald, I quit playing DAoC too. Just goes to show you - females will drag down men any day...probably because of their increased breathing capacity...I WANT MY RIB BACK DAMMIT.
Yep. So if you are even remotely interested in why someone would not only quit the 8.5 million subscription monster known as WoW, keep reading, and no you may not my stuff.
Let's start at where TBC killed for me, WoW, see if you can relate.
TBC Launched, WOOT, we waited in the icey cold to grab our copies. That would be my wife and I. We get it, I hit 70 in about 10 days. Woot me. Then reality hit's me like a ton of bricks! TBC is pretty, TBC has flying mounts! TBC has some new spells!
And that's it. That's all the truly "new things" in TBC.
BUT WAIT! What about Heroic 5 Mans??? What about them? Lame, I have to grind instances to get a key so I can grind that same instance AGAIN! But this time, ZOMG it's even HARDER!
Joy.
Karazhan? Waste of my time, effort and money. Maybe one day it will be a 4 hour instance, but I am not going to go through it to get there. It's just not worth it. I WANT to see Mt. Hyjal, but I am not going to spend that much time on it. It's just not worth it. I haven't logged into WoW in a week, and you know what?
It feels GREAT!! I have a life! I get things done, I don't feel like I am missing out because I wasn't grinding some DAMNDABLE instance over and over again. "ZOMG, I am late logging in! I have to run Shattard Halls and hope that piece of gear drops and I win roll!"
Nope, instead I got work done around the house, did some writing and watched some movies. MUCH more enjoyable.
Personally, I cannot wait for WAR to release, because it's going to be the Anti-WoW, it's going to have PvP that means something, Quests that don't require I sign up for, and spend 5 hours grinding.
You guys that love WoW, I ask you one question, is it really worth it? Is there really a purpose to all that time spent?
What I find so amusing is that you decided to yet another thread of "Why I quit playing WoW". Why didn't you just quit and be done with it? Is WoW worth it? To me, yes it is. I don't take this game, or any game serious enough to stop having a normal life. Great, so you read a book, cleaned your house, and watch movies...why did you stop doing that when you were playing? You got bored with WoW because all you did play WoW. Now you tell us it sucks and you got your life back?? LoL! And just think; instead of posting this garbage you could have watched a movie.
Actually I whole heartedly agree with earthhawk. It's not "garbage", I would post the same thing in the hopes that people would avoid this type of wasted time, so they wouldn't have high hopes for the "end game in wow" and bust your butts for nothing. Difference between him and I though? I don't care about you... and I hope you waste your time, and grow to despise Blizz for the time they are wasting... yours. I like fanboi's ... keep up the good work.
Well, I also cancelled my script, yet again( 3rd time now)...
I can surely say that WoW has paved the way for next-gen genre of MMORPG's.
The constant patching of content was a plus. The game was always moving ahead.
However, the reason I cancelled my script this final time was to play other games.
Honestly, despitethe constant patching of content, the game got odd and boring for me. WoW constantly added content, but added to current content and structure...more potion recipes, poisons, cook recipes, etc...
Overall, the best MORPG I have played to date.
I bought Vanguard SOH last week and played for 3 days. I just sold the game with some others. It seemed to be the paying subscribers job to fix the game...odd. Overall SoH wasn't very good, it had plenty of content, but their PvP system was unbalanced and theamountofbugs and exploits in the game was insane. Seemed tome that thedelelopers needed to start making money,so they puta half-finished game on the market, and charged subscribers to fix it!!!
Wanted to mention that in relationship to how good WoW gamers had it, their money went along way.
At any rate, Good Gaming to all and to all a Good Game!
However, GRINDING IS NOT FUN. Smart people are tired of WoW but I think Blizzard will keep the casual players as customers, as well as the hardcore. It's us 'semi-casual' gamer types that are caught in the middle of this fucking grind-fest from hell.
You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, game developers will continue to use the current paridgm to rake in as many customers as possible as WoW has done by using a no brainer challenge to gear up and stroke the "1337 leet doodz" ego. WoW is as challenging as pulling the lever on a slot machine over and over again waiting for the "phat loot" to drop. You simply do it over and over and over again and no brain or skill are required. Maybe one day game developers will make a MMORPG that rewards skill instead of no brainer, ginding time sinks.
How do you do that, though?
The business model of MMOs is to have players play a long time. Timesinks (and grinding is a main timesink) are one way to get that to happen. Another way is to provide meaningful PvP (that is, PvP with a reason, something to defend/conquer that has a lasting impact, etc.). Another way is sandboxing it so that the players build something meaningful for themselves, and get wrapped up in that, which retains their accounts.
A "skill-based" PvE experience ... how exactly would that retain players long-term? The static nature of most PvE means that it can be learned -- with repetition what was once challenging becomes rote and becomes "farmed". How do you make a PvE experience not like that? By making it more random? By having encounters take on a more random and unpredictable nature? That would be one possibility, but it would make things harder to balance, I think.
As I see it the main challenge is creating something that people will enjoy playing for some time. Timesinks like grinding are the most heavy-handed way of doing it, because they actually do force players to inject a certain amount of time to get a certain fixed reward. PvP turns things around the other way, but most people seem not to like PvP as a playstyle, so while there is a great market for it (as we can see in upcoming titles like AoC and WAR), it's not the huge mothelode bonanza of a market that PvE is. And as for sandboxes, these are truly niche games that appeal to smaller markets.
So as I see it what we will likely see is more of what we see today, namely: a lot of games thath feature grinding disguised to some degree, a few games that are focused on PvP, and the odd one or two games that are sandboxy -- each with its own approach at retaining players.
Skill-based will not attract many players as it would be a niche game with small subscriber base. As for the "static-nature" of PvE, why not make it dynamic? I know it will not appeal to the majority, but it would make a nice niche game. In that niche game, why not replace gear grinding with quests rewards that award the best gear for completing a quest that requires dynamic strategy and tactics on a large, open battlefield with siege weapons, different combat units, etc. against a dynamic AI instead of a all night boring dungeon crawler where the only strategy is aggro management, DPS and healing. Your best gear would come from completing the PvE endgame elite quests instead of farming for it. Perhaps there would be a series of battles- not the same battle over and over again either - each with a reward. Dungeon crawlers could even be made dynamic. "Oh noz, therez no grinding milions of hours to get my 1337 gear and now I have to think and use skill and get it only after completing the elite battles"!! Absolutley!! Why not make a more dynamic economy? I hope those developers aren't appointed a powerful econmic IRL position if the Auction House is the best they can come up with. Post PvE at endgame would offer something for everyone's interest and would also be dynamic to an ever changing game world-- PvP for the conquerers, trade for entrepreneurs, politics for the polictical, etc. and each element would act and coutner act with the other. Why not have empire building for guilds? Why not let soloers have plenty of content? Perhaps soloers can get their gear through some type of elite "special agent" quests? Why not let there be all types of PvP war--civil war, regional war, world war? Games know no limit to imagination so why should developers stop with the WoW model? Or have we as game players sent a clear message to developers that we want to be spoon fed and hand held in a static, dull, no challenge tine sinked game world?
I really am getting sick of these people who are posting whine posts about how much they hate people whining about how much world of warcraft sucks, even though I completely agree that World of Warcraft sucks and yet that just doesn't give you any right to go flaming me for it, or anyone else for that matter, if we think it sucks then we think it sucks, if you think it's great, then you think it's great, stop trying to attack other people for having an opinion, all this WoW stuff makes me sick because it reminds me of SWG, changes were made, something new was brought in and some multi-million dollar company went and abandoned a large portion of their player base.
Yes, in my opinion they're abandoning quite a large number of people, roleplayers, PvPers (simply because it's turning into more of a grind than PvP now and they won't balance anything or fix any situations to make it better), even people who just log onto World of Warcraft won't be able to socialize because everyone will be hanging out in outland and their low level characters will be stuck in Stormwind until they force themselves to level up which is pretty much what happened to me because everyone nagged and nagged.
After I bought TBC and logged in to Stormwind with my main I seriously just thought there wasn't any point in playing anymore, the friends I knew had all buggered off to play in Outland and flaunt their 'uber lewt' at me in whisper and say I should come and get it to, frankly I couldn't give a bloody damn, that gear is nothing but a bunch of pixels and stretched cubes to me (I'm a 3D artist so help me I just see gear and instance based MMORPG's that way) I just can't be bothered devoting my free time to something so worthless that millions of people have already accomplished and obtained, what's the point?
Let's look at the features listed for the expansion:
Ohh wow, a new continent after how many years they spent on that damn expansion, and what's this And much, much more have they introduced guild banks like they promised? Did they introduce guildhalls? Did they even get player housing up and running like they've been promising us and telling us it's being planned for that past few years? All of this just reminds me of when Everquest 1 brought out it's expansion, I thought it was great when I was first playing Everquest, it meant the world was being really expanded and it meant something, but here it's just the same old stuff, grind quests, fetch x item and get x reward, the items are mostly greenies, not to mention they just said hundreds when in the original there were thousands and on other games they actually have more than that.
Okay i've done enough ranting now, I don't want to even get into how crappy the jewelcrafting is with the fact it only adds a couple of tiny stats on and has NO or hardly customization whatsoever when they said they were thinking about doing that too.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
Comments
O_O
Are you sure you played WoW? The WoW I know forced people into certain trees because the other trees were so broken or useless you were wasting your time choosing them.
PvP is smooth? Mages critting for 75-100% in 2 shots is smooth? How bout that classes with CC dominate because to classes like warriors,shamans an hunters there is no way out of them so your 3 shotted without even being able to fight back?
How exactly do you stealth to the end boss an wait for a group in an instance dungeon?
I have a feeling your lying.
I am actually getting rid of my account permanently right now. I have been playing less and less since TBC launched. I don't wish anything bad upon the people who choose to stay. However, I hope that many of them manage to break the facade they're trapped in and escape the game, hopefully remedying whatever problems it has caused in their lives. If there is one common thread that I find about MMORPG players, it is that they are not overachievers in any way. Most of us just have problems getting to work/school and maintaining highly productive lives. That isn't a bad thing, but some MMORPGs, like WoW, can drive people into problems that are far worse than a little laziness.
I believe WoW has good points and bad points; it's impossible to fully judge the game in that sense since it is so vast.
There is one common theme in WoW that pretty much sums up the reason so many players are giving up. The grind. Blizzard has miscalculated somehow in their determination of how much grind the average player can stand and has shattered the illusions, revealing to many of us who are bold enough to look that the game is less rewarding and just as fun as routine office work. Many players will drudge on, spending several days to aquire a piece of armor with slightly higher statistics than the last and a slightly better aesthetic appeal - a piece of armor no other player will care about as they are too busy aquiring their own armor.
As I prepared to auction my account to some raiders today, I realized the mental anguish and frustration many PVEers face. The deals they tried to cut with me were so contrived and obvious, the swear words and rudeness displayed towards me reminded me of a lunatic drug dealer who failed to sell drugs to me on the street in Miami, and the way they tried to haggle was so low, so overzealous and unproffessional. Does this game suck the intelligence out of people, or is it chosen by people of lower intelligence?
I am searching for a dynamic experience, something that hasn't existed since Shadowbane. I don't enjoy a linear experience where I am chasing a carrot dangling from a stick. Also, PVE is horrible boring and I only tolerate in the hopes that it will help me PVP better. It seems that people who are new to MMOs are more tolerant and can enjoy PVE, but after several of them, us veterans get tired of PVE very quickly.
What is the difference between MMO and drug addiction? You have fun doing drugs! MMORPGs involve very little pleasure, mostly endless grinding. I wonder sometimes if there is a masochistic part in us that chooses to play them? Even the customer support offered by MMORPG companies is abusive, insane, and unregulated. They treat grown players like children. What I don't understand is how Blizzard can ban tens of thousands of linux users and manage to subdue them to the point where they won't complain. It just doesn't make sense to me how people can continue to sit down and take the beating again and again.
Wow has done nothing but shown me again and again how I can 'never' be the best. Unfortunately for WoW, I no longer can chase the 'joy around the corner' while unconsciously preparing to miss the goals I set for myself. It has damaged my spending time with my girlfriend, getting to work on time, getting to school. The game should have probably thrown a few more bones, it might have kept me a little longer - although eventually you have to realize the trick being played on you.
Mark my words - An MMORPG based on grind will not offer a happy ending for ANY player. You can't simply say "I am a great warrior" and retire - because by the next patch, you are no longer a great warrior. It is a story that never ends.
My main concern is not necessarily the theory behind grinding and the sin of creating a game that requires it, my concern is the magnitude to which people grind. The vast ammount of time spent shoudl speak for itself. Many players have spent a year logged into the game. The majory have spent about two months of time logged into the game. This is excessive in every way because I ensure you that the memories you gain from WoW will not be worth that ammount of time. Sure, some great things have happened, but they were islands amid a sea of grind. It's like the time back in junior high when bobby at EZ-burger did something really funny. Sure, it was fun, but every moment that you wasted at the crap job was worthless, and bobby's skit didn't make up for the crap you put up with.
So grinders - please stop grinding. You know you hate it. Nobody enjoys it, nobody. Casual players - don't become grinders. Stop playing the game the moment the fun stops - which might present a problem when there is nothing to do but grind as you level up, and result in you not logging in ever again.
Quit the game, it sucks. Make Blizzard go bancrupt. Fight for revolution
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The class customization gets a DECENT score on my list. It isn't bad, that's for sure, yet it isn't innovative or thought provoking. It is basic, dumbed down to entertain anyone over 5 years old. It is VERY well streamlined and I applaud Blizzard for making it understandable. However, there is no space to become unique.
I have often disliked the entire idea of customizing a character and preffered the new MMO players are asking for where guilds share from a pool of characters, but that isn't factored into my judgement of WoW. Tabards don't really make a guild look alike, I would prefer to be a part of a faction where everyone's armor is the same and you fight as a single or two classed unit rather than a messy colorful mess of spread out raiders/pvpers that pull mounts out of their backpacks of every shape and class imaginable - which really dilutes the tactics. Remember, chess is simple, yet can be extremely thought provoking when it comes to strategy/tactics.
PVP. The PVP system in WoW is also decent. They get an A+ when it comes to making the game work 'smooth'. When it comes to strategies and whatnot they get a C. The game does definitely have some well-thought-out strategy to the 1v1 pvp, but it fades very quickly in any group PvP setting. Overall however, I would rate WoW PvP to be about a F-. The reason being that battles are limited to incredibly boring battlegrounds that are based on grinding (and even include PVE!), or a horrible contrived arena system. World PvP has been asked for again and again but Blizzard refuses to implement world pvp rewards beyond a silly buff. You just don't see an army charging in a line, there is no adrenaline in the PVP. I do agree with you on the smoothness point, however.
another blah blah blah thread
what a waste
if you don't like it, dont' play it
My point exactly. Popularity does not equal quality. McDonalds has served billions of burgers to millions of customers, and their food is nothing but mediocre crap. You can't please that many people unless your product is bland enough to not offend the tastes of any of them.One in every five people are annoying, stupid, and just plain ignorant. You realize that WoW's bound to have more ignoramous' than any other MMO to date because of it's vast subscriber base.
My point exactly. Popularity does not equal quality. McDonalds has served billions of burgers to millions of customers, and their food is nothing but mediocre crap. You can't please that many people unless your product is bland enough to not offend the tastes of any of them.Your friend is the smartest person on the planet. Who needs a relationship when all of the women on the planet are becoming obese? As for college - why go if by the end of the year hundreds of thousands of people will be in debt for that tiny little piece of paper that everybody will have, and by then, half the jobs will be overseas. I'm not in college, I'm 19, I get paid much more than the interns in college and I live a 4 star lifestyle. It's not 5 star, but it's better than what most college graduates will live in 10 years. And no, I don't live at home, I live in my own apartment. It's called common sense, and everyone knows deep down that this 'college' thing is 'not' required to survive.Ask yourself this - was the game fun? Yes. Is it still fun? Yes. Games are made to be fun...Is grinding fun? Certainly, because in the end you have to have a reason to grind - you have to have goals - when everything is handed to you on a silver platter the game appears too easy and you quit. Think about pre-TBC and how everything seemed fairly easy. Now - think about it - if Blizzard made all of the raids 5-mans, 10-mans, and 25-mans 'max' in TBC, that means they would happen more often, that way, they could put in more room for more difficulty....
The majority of all of these 'z0MFG I hav3 all PurpZ LOLOLIP0000Pers!!!!1!1' are people who feel their wasting their time now because everybody else can have equal-to or greater gear than them. I defeated a 70 Rogue, and I am but a mere 68 Warlock. How did I do it? Skills. People complain that Rogues are immune to fear. Well, not if you know how to play. People are just pissed because they said, "Omfg it was too easy now it's too hard OMG OMG OMG". Think about EQ1 pre-Luclin, then you come tell me about how hard it was to get a raid together, wipeout, recover, etc.
No matter what Blizzard says or does to better their game, remember, people will always find a reason to be miserable with it. Why is this? Is it because people don't like T3H GRAFFPHIX or because it doesn't utilize some crappy pre-rendered world generated tool kit world? I don't know. You people amaze me with every passing day. Cry more....Ha. You were dumped over WoW? Ok, then your probably better off. In fact, men survive. We donated a rib to the female race (yes I said race, not gender) and now their consuming so much more than us.
WHO CARES.
Play WoW - enjoy it while it lasts. As for WAR - well, it's no longer Mythic Entertainment, okay? It's EA Mythic. THINK PEOPLE - EA...Destroyer of Earth and Beyond 2, gravediggers of Ultima Online, and (eventually) the closers of DAoC. I wouldn't go as far as saying EA is as bad as SOE, but - their about even.
EDIT : And for the record, after Sanya Thomas' retardation started showing on Camelot Herald, I quit playing DAoC too. Just goes to show you - females will drag down men any day...probably because of their increased breathing capacity...I WANT MY RIB BACK DAMMIT.
First and foremost, to the OP, sincere congratulations to you on realizing you have an addiction that is negatively impacting your life and taking steps to get it under control and get yourself away from your computer desk to make time for other much more important, valuable, productive, and just downright more fulfilling facets of your life.
For my own part, I’m still a WoW subscriber and still loving every minute of gameplay. Of course, I’m very much a casual player and only have four or five hours a week to play on average on maybe one or two nights a week. Some weeks I don’t play at all. My family, career, and basically every other thing in my life comes first before gaming, and that is as it absolutely should be. The idea that I’d have it any other way is ridiculous and I genuinely worry for the mental health of anyone that does.
WoW is an ideal game for a player like me with extremely limited time, because there is an abundance of things to do that can be accomplished in short bursts of time. It’s awesome that I can log on in the evening before bed, complete a couple of quests or join in for a couple of battleground contests and then walk away and I’ve only spent an hour or so. It’s something I do instead of watch TV, which we don’t spend a lot of time on either.
I’ll never achieve or earn the extremely rare items that can only be captured by grinding many hours of my life away in some high level raider’s instance, but I am completely fine with that and knew that going in. There is more than enough fun to be had outside of that to say the least, and at my gaming rate, I doubt I’ll ever see those high levels anyway. I know a lot of the hardcore players seem disenfranchised with the game since the expansion came out, but I would venture to guess that the lion’s share of Blizzard’s subscribers are a lot closer to my casual play schedule and interests than theirs.
Getting life priorities in perspective and refusing to allow any single facet of it, especially something as utterly meaningless and potentially self-destructive as an out of control gaming hobby, run your life is beyond priceless. With that in mind, the idea that hundreds or even thousands of hardcore subscribers are being driven away from a game they were devoting forty or even fifty or more hours a week to by this expansion can only be a good thing.
To return the favor, I'll enlighten you with a similar snippet of wisdom: If you don't like a thread, don't read it!
QFT.
Time sinks != content. Games != life. When you're on your deathbed, what will be more important to you - raiding for that last piece of armor or the time you didn't spend with your loved ones for it?
yet another "SOB SOB i dont like this game" "OMG the grind is sooo boring" "PVP is sooo unfair" "The intelligence level of this game is sooo low" post
Ask yourself this, would you waste your time complaining on a forum about a company that provides fresh produce for eg. apples and they were in your opinion bad tasting?
No, i dont think you would, you would go out and buy a different brand of apples.
Thats atleast what i do, if you cant make/grow/produce/design something to my liking, i wont buy it and move on to something that i do like, not sit around and have a Sob Fest about it.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh Well
Whatever
Nevermind
Couldn't disagree more. Grinding isnt' fun. People dont't play to grind. People DONT always find a reason to be miserable with a game. I don't even feel linke naming the vast quantity of games that people enjoyed. I know I enjoyed Shadowbane, even runescape. I didn't enjoy WoW, nor final fantasy XI. Some games are fun, some aren't. Don't go for the catch-all 'people will always complain' line.
As for college. Yeah I agree. Alot of idiots going into business, fine arts, history are going to be living in a cardboard box. Can't say the same as I'm going into engineering - I guess the price is having to study like hell and rarely get to party like the business majors do. But hey, we make more in our internships than they make after they graduate and we get to go overseas :P. I say go to REAL college or don't go at all - college does NOT equal money unless you study like hell.
I also agree about EA. The age of MMOs is looking grim indeed.
However, GRINDING IS NOT FUN. Smart people are tired of WoW but I think Blizzard will keep the casual players as customers, as well as the hardcore. It's us 'semi-casual' gamer types that are caught in the middle of this fucking grind-fest from hell.
I absolutely agree. I hope you don't think I was saying anything to the contrary.
'What does QFT mean?
Point out to the guy that all the hype over 8.5 million subs means nothing when other MMOs have 12 to 14 million subs. See what kind of responce you get then.
I have to agree with this guy. WoW doesn't have the highest sub rate of MMO's on the market. Blizz just hypes it more then other games around. Success can also be measured dif. depending upon the kind of sucess you aim for. Eve runs on one server and has close to what, 200k subs? Not a lot compared to WoW, but they aren't aiming for millions. VG isn't aiming for WoW numbers either. Sigil is looking for only 500k in the first year.
WoW is just Diablo 2 with slightly more stuff to do. The devs have shown an inability to inovate or come up with original game ideas in over 2 years. Thier next update is opening another 25 man instance for godsakes. The game is the exact same repetetive crap from lvl one to lvl 70 with not a single worthwhile time sink outside of combat. It's the only thing it has going for it. The combat is fun. Shame they can't find other fun things to build on.
yet another "SOB SOB i dont like this game" "OMG the grind is sooo boring" "PVP is sooo unfair" "The intelligence level of this game is sooo low" post
Ask yourself this, would you waste your time complaining on a forum about a company that provides fresh produce for eg. apples and they were in your opinion bad tasting?
No, i dont think you would, you would go out and buy a different brand of apples.
Thats atleast what i do, if you cant make/grow/produce/design something to my liking, i wont buy it and move on to something that i do like, not sit around and have a Sob Fest about it.
No shit. We are moving on.
Considering many of us invested hundreds or thousands of hours of playtime into this game, it would be completely wrong not to have at least a small discussion regarding leaving.
The analogy just doesn't hold for that reason. An apple effects about 20 seconds of my life.
In fact, in terms of proportionality, we have spent a very small percantage of our time bitching about wow in terms of how much time we spent playing it. On the other hand, you have probably spent just as much time bitching about this post as you spent reading - which in makes you a hypocritical bitcher with a flamboyant picture in your signature. QQ more.
(And dont' say what I know you're going to say about hypocrisy, my attack on you stems from having spent countless years of life fighting ignorant idiots, not from reading your post alone)
I absolutely agree. I hope you don't think I was saying anything to the contrary.
'What does QFT mean?
QFT = quoted for truth. That question was aimed at others, not you. You hit the nail on the head.
We have to all be careful not to judge others based on our own standards of what is appropriate. Some people have very intense hobbies that are a huge part of their lives, while other people tend to not have so many hobbies, or not have as intensive a hobby, and spread themselves around doing various things. Pointing fingers at people and saying that they lead unfulfilling lives because they don't match one's own preferred time allocation is dangerous at best.
Dare to be differant?. I really enjoy WOW and yet it seems i am being told here that i am just following the crowd. I have tried differant games but i enjoy WOW the most so sorry not going to happen. If a song is really popular and too many other people like it then i should hate it maybe?. How siily this concept is!. Just play what you enjoy, if you don't play WOW because too many other people like it but you find it more enjoyable than the other stuff out there that would be silly.
Grind? well if you find it so much of a grind then maybe you are being guilty of playing it too much. WOW doesn't force people to get reputation within a certain timespan, that is decided by the people playing.
I am playing the game i enjoy and not because i am following the crowd and i am no way a novice to mmorpg's. I imagine a lot of people are playing it and enjoying it and aren't robots as some WOW haters would like to think. You can try and use WOW's numbers against it but i like playing a game with such a lot of people. Yeah some are idiots but wow you can actually ignore them and not have to see their comments. Generally the WOW community i see in game is pretty good in my opinion.
You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, game developers will continue to use the current paridgm to rake in as many customers as possible as WoW has done by using a no brainer challenge to gear up and stroke the "1337 leet doodz" ego. WoW is as challenging as pulling the lever on a slot machine over and over again waiting for the "phat loot" to drop. You simply do it over and over and over again and no brain or skill are required. Maybe one day game developers will make a MMORPG that rewards skill instead of no brainer, ginding time sinks.
You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, game developers will continue to use the current paridgm to rake in as many customers as possible as WoW has done by using a no brainer challenge to gear up and stroke the "1337 leet doodz" ego. WoW is as challenging as pulling the lever on a slot machine over and over again waiting for the "phat loot" to drop. You simply do it over and over and over again and no brain or skill are required. Maybe one day game developers will make a MMORPG that rewards skill instead of no brainer, ginding time sinks.
How do you do that, though?
The business model of MMOs is to have players play a long time. Timesinks (and grinding is a main timesink) are one way to get that to happen. Another way is to provide meaningful PvP (that is, PvP with a reason, something to defend/conquer that has a lasting impact, etc.). Another way is sandboxing it so that the players build something meaningful for themselves, and get wrapped up in that, which retains their accounts.
A "skill-based" PvE experience ... how exactly would that retain players long-term? The static nature of most PvE means that it can be learned -- with repetition what was once challenging becomes rote and becomes "farmed". How do you make a PvE experience not like that? By making it more random? By having encounters take on a more random and unpredictable nature? That would be one possibility, but it would make things harder to balance, I think.
As I see it the main challenge is creating something that people will enjoy playing for some time. Timesinks like grinding are the most heavy-handed way of doing it, because they actually do force players to inject a certain amount of time to get a certain fixed reward. PvP turns things around the other way, but most people seem not to like PvP as a playstyle, so while there is a great market for it (as we can see in upcoming titles like AoC and WAR), it's not the huge mothelode bonanza of a market that PvE is. And as for sandboxes, these are truly niche games that appeal to smaller markets.
So as I see it what we will likely see is more of what we see today, namely: a lot of games thath feature grinding disguised to some degree, a few games that are focused on PvP, and the odd one or two games that are sandboxy -- each with its own approach at retaining players.
One in every five people are annoying, stupid, and just plain ignorant. You realize that WoW's bound to have more ignoramous' than any other MMO to date because of it's vast subscriber base.
My point exactly. Popularity does not equal quality. McDonalds has served billions of burgers to millions of customers, and their food is nothing but mediocre crap. You can't please that many people unless your product is bland enough to not offend the tastes of any of them.Your friend is the smartest person on the planet. Who needs a relationship when all of the women on the planet are becoming obese? As for college - why go if by the end of the year hundreds of thousands of people will be in debt for that tiny little piece of paper that everybody will have, and by then, half the jobs will be overseas. I'm not in college, I'm 19, I get paid much more than the interns in college and I live a 4 star lifestyle. It's not 5 star, but it's better than what most college graduates will live in 10 years. And no, I don't live at home, I live in my own apartment. It's called common sense, and everyone knows deep down that this 'college' thing is 'not' required to survive.Ask yourself this - was the game fun? Yes. Is it still fun? Yes. Games are made to be fun...Is grinding fun? Certainly, because in the end you have to have a reason to grind - you have to have goals - when everything is handed to you on a silver platter the game appears too easy and you quit. Think about pre-TBC and how everything seemed fairly easy. Now - think about it - if Blizzard made all of the raids 5-mans, 10-mans, and 25-mans 'max' in TBC, that means they would happen more often, that way, they could put in more room for more difficulty....
The majority of all of these 'z0MFG I hav3 all PurpZ LOLOLIP0000Pers!!!!1!1' are people who feel their wasting their time now because everybody else can have equal-to or greater gear than them. I defeated a 70 Rogue, and I am but a mere 68 Warlock. How did I do it? Skills. People complain that Rogues are immune to fear. Well, not if you know how to play. People are just pissed because they said, "Omfg it was too easy now it's too hard OMG OMG OMG". Think about EQ1 pre-Luclin, then you come tell me about how hard it was to get a raid together, wipeout, recover, etc.
No matter what Blizzard says or does to better their game, remember, people will always find a reason to be miserable with it. Why is this? Is it because people don't like T3H GRAFFPHIX or because it doesn't utilize some crappy pre-rendered world generated tool kit world? I don't know. You people amaze me with every passing day. Cry more....Ha. You were dumped over WoW? Ok, then your probably better off. In fact, men survive. We donated a rib to the female race (yes I said race, not gender) and now their consuming so much more than us.
WHO CARES.
Play WoW - enjoy it while it lasts. As for WAR - well, it's no longer Mythic Entertainment, okay? It's EA Mythic. THINK PEOPLE - EA...Destroyer of Earth and Beyond 2, gravediggers of Ultima Online, and (eventually) the closers of DAoC. I wouldn't go as far as saying EA is as bad as SOE, but - their about even.
EDIT : And for the record, after Sanya Thomas' retardation started showing on Camelot Herald, I quit playing DAoC too. Just goes to show you - females will drag down men any day...probably because of their increased breathing capacity...I WANT MY RIB BACK DAMMIT.
Oh nice a misogynist.
Actually I whole heartedly agree with earthhawk. It's not "garbage", I would post the same thing in the hopes that people would avoid this type of wasted time, so they wouldn't have high hopes for the "end game in wow" and bust your butts for nothing. Difference between him and I though? I don't care about you... and I hope you waste your time, and grow to despise Blizz for the time they are wasting... yours. I like fanboi's ... keep up the good work.
Well, I also cancelled my script, yet again( 3rd time now)...
I can surely say that WoW has paved the way for next-gen genre of MMORPG's.
The constant patching of content was a plus. The game was always moving ahead.
However, the reason I cancelled my script this final time was to play other games.
Honestly, despitethe constant patching of content, the game got odd and boring for me. WoW constantly added content, but added to current content and structure...more potion recipes, poisons, cook recipes, etc...
Overall, the best MORPG I have played to date.
I bought Vanguard SOH last week and played for 3 days. I just sold the game with some others. It seemed to be the paying subscribers job to fix the game...odd. Overall SoH wasn't very good, it had plenty of content, but their PvP system was unbalanced and theamountofbugs and exploits in the game was insane. Seemed tome that thedelelopers needed to start making money,so they puta half-finished game on the market, and charged subscribers to fix it!!!
Wanted to mention that in relationship to how good WoW gamers had it, their money went along way.
At any rate, Good Gaming to all and to all a Good Game!
You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, game developers will continue to use the current paridgm to rake in as many customers as possible as WoW has done by using a no brainer challenge to gear up and stroke the "1337 leet doodz" ego. WoW is as challenging as pulling the lever on a slot machine over and over again waiting for the "phat loot" to drop. You simply do it over and over and over again and no brain or skill are required. Maybe one day game developers will make a MMORPG that rewards skill instead of no brainer, ginding time sinks.
How do you do that, though?
The business model of MMOs is to have players play a long time. Timesinks (and grinding is a main timesink) are one way to get that to happen. Another way is to provide meaningful PvP (that is, PvP with a reason, something to defend/conquer that has a lasting impact, etc.). Another way is sandboxing it so that the players build something meaningful for themselves, and get wrapped up in that, which retains their accounts.
A "skill-based" PvE experience ... how exactly would that retain players long-term? The static nature of most PvE means that it can be learned -- with repetition what was once challenging becomes rote and becomes "farmed". How do you make a PvE experience not like that? By making it more random? By having encounters take on a more random and unpredictable nature? That would be one possibility, but it would make things harder to balance, I think.
As I see it the main challenge is creating something that people will enjoy playing for some time. Timesinks like grinding are the most heavy-handed way of doing it, because they actually do force players to inject a certain amount of time to get a certain fixed reward. PvP turns things around the other way, but most people seem not to like PvP as a playstyle, so while there is a great market for it (as we can see in upcoming titles like AoC and WAR), it's not the huge mothelode bonanza of a market that PvE is. And as for sandboxes, these are truly niche games that appeal to smaller markets.
So as I see it what we will likely see is more of what we see today, namely: a lot of games thath feature grinding disguised to some degree, a few games that are focused on PvP, and the odd one or two games that are sandboxy -- each with its own approach at retaining players.
Skill-based will not attract many players as it would be a niche game with small subscriber base. As for the "static-nature" of PvE, why not make it dynamic? I know it will not appeal to the majority, but it would make a nice niche game. In that niche game, why not replace gear grinding with quests rewards that award the best gear for completing a quest that requires dynamic strategy and tactics on a large, open battlefield with siege weapons, different combat units, etc. against a dynamic AI instead of a all night boring dungeon crawler where the only strategy is aggro management, DPS and healing. Your best gear would come from completing the PvE endgame elite quests instead of farming for it. Perhaps there would be a series of battles- not the same battle over and over again either - each with a reward. Dungeon crawlers could even be made dynamic. "Oh noz, therez no grinding milions of hours to get my 1337 gear and now I have to think and use skill and get it only after completing the elite battles
"!! Absolutley!! Why not make a more dynamic economy? I hope those developers aren't appointed a powerful econmic IRL position if the Auction House is the best they can come up with. Post PvE at endgame would offer something for everyone's interest and would also be dynamic to an ever changing game world-- PvP for the conquerers, trade for entrepreneurs, politics for the polictical, etc. and each element would act and coutner act with the other. Why not have empire building for guilds? Why not let soloers have plenty of content? Perhaps soloers can get their gear through some type of elite "special agent" quests? Why not let there be all types of PvP war--civil war, regional war, world war? Games know no limit to imagination so why should developers stop with the WoW model? Or have we as game players sent a clear message to developers that we want to be spoon fed and hand held in a static, dull, no challenge tine sinked game world?
Yes, in my opinion they're abandoning quite a large number of people, roleplayers, PvPers (simply because it's turning into more of a grind than PvP now and they won't balance anything or fix any situations to make it better), even people who just log onto World of Warcraft won't be able to socialize because everyone will be hanging out in outland and their low level characters will be stuck in Stormwind until they force themselves to level up which is pretty much what happened to me because everyone nagged and nagged.
After I bought TBC and logged in to Stormwind with my main I seriously just thought there wasn't any point in playing anymore, the friends I knew had all buggered off to play in Outland and flaunt their 'uber lewt' at me in whisper and say I should come and get it to, frankly I couldn't give a bloody damn, that gear is nothing but a bunch of pixels and stretched cubes to me (I'm a 3D artist so help me I just see gear and instance based MMORPG's that way) I just can't be bothered devoting my free time to something so worthless that millions of people have already accomplished and obtained, what's the point?
Let's look at the features listed for the expansion:
Ohh wow, a new continent after how many years they spent on that damn expansion, and what's this And much, much more have they introduced guild banks like they promised? Did they introduce guildhalls? Did they even get player housing up and running like they've been promising us and telling us it's being planned for that past few years? All of this just reminds me of when Everquest 1 brought out it's expansion, I thought it was great when I was first playing Everquest, it meant the world was being really expanded and it meant something, but here it's just the same old stuff, grind quests, fetch x item and get x reward, the items are mostly greenies, not to mention they just said hundreds when in the original there were thousands and on other games they actually have more than that.
Okay i've done enough ranting now, I don't want to even get into how crappy the jewelcrafting is with the fact it only adds a couple of tiny stats on and has NO or hardly customization whatsoever when they said they were thinking about doing that too.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.