DaoC RvR was a pointless waste of time. It was virtually meaningless. Open to abuses. And almost impossible for lower level RvRers.
I still think the best PvP ever was old school UO. Before they started pleasing the teddy bears. I still remember guild battles from UO. All I remember from DaoC was getting lamed by an archer that you cant even see. *yawn* Give me REAL pvp. Give *us* something. PvP haters have dozens of games for them. Yet the only game that ever had true pvp died when EQ and all its little clones came along with pretty graphics and little content.
And one of the biggest parts of UO pvp was the lack of levels. A non-GM could beat a GM. There was no "I am level 45, your 30. I win. Oh, and I get nothing for it. Yay for me"
I kinda like the L2 system in theory (never played it), except it should be faction-based, and maybe with a level-difference factor.
AC2 was decent, with straightforward PvP areas which quite frequently were also quest areas. Ganking was fun in AC2. I like to gank. gank gank gank.
gank.
"I can tell you with no ego, this is my finest sword. If, on your journey, you should encounter God. . . . . . God will be cut." - Quentin Tarantino, Kill Bill
I think to do a pvp game right the first thing that needs to be done is throw out almost everything learned from making pve games.
I think a good pvp model to try would be something like this. Much faster leveling, but permadeath. Items would be much more important in the power of the player than it is in most games now, and levels would be toned down in importance. As much should depend on the players as possible, gaining experience, maybe computer controlled bounties etc. Skills would raise based on use with player advancement being hidden from view, and the only limitation to become good at things being the time to use the skills. A handicap system where players were rewarded more for killing people with a better win/loss ration than them. A very carefully controlled economy so that the progression of items remains how it should be for the most fun.
Player control would be completely up to the players. There would be some skill like tracking or something to allow bounty hunters to chase after transgressors, however once they found them they would recieve no artificial help.
Combat would be fast paced and involved enough that people must act on instinct. It should be really intimidating with loud noises and scary death animations like in fallout or mortal kombat or something.
There would be factions that fought for control of resources, ones that would actually be used by in game players to make items that people used.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
perma death is rediculous in pvp... I'm sorry, but you can't make a decent system of PvP if people have to start from ground zero every time they die. The fun part about PvP is being able to come back and help your guildmates...... like reinforcements. One of the best parts in AC, is that, ya you die and go white (you cant pvp when you are white), but you can buff up and try to be ready to help your guild as soon as you go red. Mansion wars were SOOOO fun in AC... I know that as a member of the Lethal Castaways.. we had a ton of fun warring with the Dreams of War on Og villas right by us. Ya there were barriers, so some ppl just hid behind those but we had some damn good clashes... it was great. I haven't seen any form of combat that would be anything close to that..
Phrozt - level 128 Battle Mage on Asheron's call DT Aros de Phrozt - level 57 Bow Dio dell'ascia - TANK axe Lo Lo told you, You are play PK is Pig
++ Now playing Risk Your Life
Phrozt - level 177 Battle Mage on Asheron's call DT Lo Lo told you, You are play PK is Pig
Current: Asheron's Call > Darktide, Wow (Just to check stats) Old: Shadowbane, Dark and Light, Risk Your Life
For once I agree with you: Having been a d2 hc veteran (lvl 80+ chars and druid bears on top of it) I must say that there is nothing more exhilirating than lvling up with a hard hitting low lvl assassin with lvl 80s and 90s in the game, on the same map. I don't think any mmorpg has come close to the fun that I had had in that one short year of d2 hc:
You actually feel an adrenaline rush when you take your lvl 50-60 char out to face it's death with all of your valuable exceptional unique items (lost countless bartucs and such, and being non duped hc they were quite a prize).
Permadeath makes playing that much more intensive, since you have to approach your decisions that you make with your character with utter clarity "Will I trust that high lvl person not to shoot a guided up my ass?" "Should I make that treasure run to Mephisto even though I am only lvl 40?"
I am not sure if this proposal is economically optimal, nor do I care: I think that hc chars should be given their own server and that there be a free for all, kill anyone, sort of system, where however pking will result in grave circumstances with the players faction/alliance, such that entering towns etc. will be quite a task if you are a notorious pker, which would allow lower lvls to gain the lvls necessary to get equal footing.
Actually there is a game with a very similar PvP system (Dark Fall) sans permadeath. I am crossing my fingers and hoping that one of the next generation companies will come out with a "hardcore" (d2 term) mode that will allow players that crave a rush to play with the fear of death in them
//\//\00 (oVV
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by Phrozt perma death is rediculous in pvp... I'm sorry, but you can't make a decent system of PvP if people have to start from ground zero every time they die.
lol... permadeath is rediculous in most mmorpgs that exist so far. Obviously its not rediculous in FPS'es because character advancement consists of picking up weapons of the ground. The question is if you have an mmorpg that is in between how bad is it? I think there is a balance where you dont loose all motivation to play when you die but you damn well think twice before getting into fights. There are some games coming out similar to this idea that should provide more information to be sure.
I think fallout is a good example of how important levels should be in this type of game.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I've come to the following conclusion after reading and pondering most of the posts in this forum, please tell me what you think about my new and improved idea.
- Open PVP, (meaning you can attack other player anyware)
- PVP can affect your alignment
- Dueling Center near the edge of the village, the only place where you can duel. When you duel you don't have to worry about items dropping or exp loss, its just for fun.
- Bounty System: Players can post bounties on other players. Mutiple players may contribute towards one bounty, increasing the reward. Upon placing the bounty the reward amount is immediately deducted from the players bank account.
- If you fight in the town, unless your in the dueling area, you will be attacked by npc's. (Pking in towns creates lag due to the mass numbers of players there, along with making a lot of poeple unhappy).
Originally posted by frown I've come to the following conclusion after reading and pondering most of the posts in this forum, please tell me what you think about my new and improved idea. - Open PVP, (meaning you can attack other player anyware) - PVP can affect your alignment - Dueling Center near the edge of the village, the only place where you can duel. When you duel you don't have to worry about items dropping or exp loss, its just for fun. - Bounty System: Players can post bounties on other players. Mutiple players may contribute towards one bounty, increasing the reward. Upon placing the bounty the reward amount is immediately deducted from the players bank account. - If you fight in the town, unless your in the dueling area, you will be attacked by npc's. (Pking in towns creates lag due to the mass numbers of players there, along with making a lot of poeple unhappy).
Open PvP = forced PvP and very often griefing, so not a good idea, think zones with PvP is better, so those that don't want PvP can stay away and still enjoy the game.
Other than that I like the rest, another possiblility is to have a PvP switch (that you only can change once a week/month or so) all that have the PvP switch on are open for PvP everywhere and maybe gain 10% more xp or something to encourage people to have it on.
Need some more rules around PvP switch for it to work good ofcourse, but I think that's an good option.
This is ofcourse if it's a normal server and not a PvP server, PvP server should have open PvP with afew rules depending on the game.
PvP is best done if you have proper enemies and proper safe havens.
If i am a human and i see an orc i can expect a fight. whereas if i see a human i dont, so if that human kills me i get annoyed. Therefore that human shouldnt be able to kill me, alternatively if he was a human from one city and me from another i may know he is an enemy and expect a fight, this means you know who is going to kill you and who wont.
Also if i am in my nations capital city i should expect to be safe, as we should have guards to stop enemies getting in. These guards shouldnt be Uber, so that if the enemy musters an army they can attack and have a hope of victory.
if this happens it will take the random element out of PvP, and thats the worst thing. Also PvP should have a reward in the same way as PvE, maybe xp depending on the level difference. And if a high level kills a noob without provocation (or without being an enemy) then the noob could possibly even leach xp from the high level.
exactly my point mate. i remember a long long ago i used to play neocron, i was unemployed and played about 16 hours a day for 5 months or so. I had a fully maxed character and was about as hard as they come, i enjoyed the PvE and PvP in outpost battles etc. then one guy walked up to me while i was waiting for a gun to be made, he said hello then when i pressed return to type back (which means i cant shoot or anything in chat mode) he killed me.
That annoyed me so much i quit that day and never played again.
How is permadeath ridiculous(NOTE THIS SPELLING) to those people that live on the edge (or want to)? I am sure that a substantial number of potential MMORPGERS would salivate over a hardcore mode(including myself).
All I know is that hundreds of thousands of people that played the ridiculously(note the spelling) horrible d2 hardcore mode would be more than willing to pay for a fine mmorpg equivalent: Imagine having bounty hunts on notorious players, or a RIDICULOUS sum of money on a poster in every city and townhall. It would add a whole new dimension to mmorpg (or rather one that hasn't been explored yet because all of you are damn sissies)
Maybe for you tots the idea of losing all the time invested is horrid, but for some people (stock holder inclusive) there is nothing more fun than making a gamble every second. People could establish entire guilds devoted to PKKIng (killing player killers). But I doubt that it will ever happen given that you 5 year olds wet your pants at the slightest mention of PERMADEATH.
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme." -ICP Toy Box Riddle Box
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by //\//\oo How is permadeath ridiculous(NOTE THIS SPELLING) to those people that live on the edge (or want to)? I am sure that a substantial number of potential MMORPGERS would salivate over a hardcore mode(including myself). All I know is that hundreds of thousands of people that played the ridiculously(note the spelling) horrible d2 hardcore mode would be more than willing to pay for a fine mmorpg equivalent: Imagine having bounty hunts on notorious players, or a RIDICULOUS sum of money on a poster in every city and townhall. It would add a whole new dimension to mmorpg (or rather one that hasn't been explored yet because all of you are damn sissies) Maybe for you tots the idea of losing all the time invested is horrid, but for some people (stock holder inclusive) there is nothing more fun than making a gamble every second. People could establish entire guilds devoted to PKKIng (killing player killers). But I doubt that it will ever happen given that you 5 year olds wet your pants at the slightest mention of PERMADEATH.
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme." -ICP Toy Box Riddle Box
When you can discuss something without calling people names when they don't agree with you it would be alot more interesting and people would maybe even try to see your view of it and try to understand it.
I will try to just ignore you name calling and reply anyway..
MMORPGs are built in a total diffrent way than D2 or FPSers, people spend ALOT more time building their characters, getting items, socializing and everything, having perma death won't work for many reasons.
The number of people that have spent 50+ days building a char just to die because of a lag spike and then restart the game are way too low for any company to make a MMORPG around it.
We have seen several MMORPGs that have tried to build a game around PvP fail big time, with perma death it's even less chance to succeed.
I think it would be interesting to see a establized MMORPG open a PvP server with perma death tho, most likly people will lvl up first and then be too afraid to PvP and after that just start new characters so it wil be lvl 1-2 chars PvPing and the whole world except the newbie ground will be deserted.
..... my god, you people are so sensitive. I did not mean to offend any adult: It was more exhortational than anything else. I did not explicitly refer to those that play mmorpgers as bed wetting children, because I am myself a mmorpger.
The only difference is that there is a much more competitive element in d2 than there is in most rpgs, (even with the upcoming castle siege crap). But there is another market for people like me that would kill to see a MMORPG with a hardcore element.
People like me have a very high WTP so that we could compensate for the lack in demand, and our demand curves are very elastic, considering that most of us could deal with the horrid graphics and lag time in d2.
People like me would also require little to no gms, because we can think for ourselves (assuming the game is not bug ridden), which is another needless expense (the game design should be self-sustaining).
And to think that there were around 100-200k of me playing a crap game like d2 hc back in the day.
Another accusation: d2 hc players do not roleplay. I was part of a HARDCORE roleplay server on NVN. Where you couldn't even OOC or anything of the sort and it caught more of my attention than AO and RO combined. I am an experienced roleplayer and can do so for hours (as long as my companions are willing), so saying that the set of people that play online rpgs such as d2 does not include roleplayers is inane.
All I am looking for is a MMORPG for ADULTS like myself with a degree of sophistication and CHALLENGE.
Hardcore (permadeath) encompasses both of these aspects.
The intent of the previous post was to see if anyone would react positively, but it seems like most people/(or the set of them on mmorpg.com) have different interests.
So don't misconstrue any of these posts as some kind of criticism.
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme." -ICP Toy Box Riddle Box
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Comments
DaoC RvR was a pointless waste of time. It was virtually meaningless. Open to abuses. And almost impossible for lower level RvRers.
I still think the best PvP ever was old school UO. Before they started pleasing the teddy bears. I still remember guild battles from UO. All I remember from DaoC was getting lamed by an archer that you cant even see. *yawn* Give me REAL pvp. Give *us* something. PvP haters have dozens of games for them. Yet the only game that ever had true pvp died when EQ and all its little clones came along with pretty graphics and little content.
And one of the biggest parts of UO pvp was the lack of levels. A non-GM could beat a GM. There was no "I am level 45, your 30. I win. Oh, and I get nothing for it. Yay for me"
I kinda like the L2 system in theory (never played it), except it should be faction-based, and maybe with a level-difference factor.
AC2 was decent, with straightforward PvP areas which quite frequently were also quest areas. Ganking was fun in AC2. I like to gank. gank gank gank.
gank.
"I can tell you with no ego, this is my finest sword. If, on your journey, you should encounter God. . .
. . . God will be cut."
- Quentin Tarantino, Kill Bill
EQII
Requiiem, Templar
Neriak
I think to do a pvp game right the first thing that needs to be done is throw out almost everything learned from making pve games.
I think a good pvp model to try would be something like this. Much faster leveling, but permadeath. Items would be much more important in the power of the player than it is in most games now, and levels would be toned down in importance. As much should depend on the players as possible, gaining experience, maybe computer controlled bounties etc. Skills would raise based on use with player advancement being hidden from view, and the only limitation to become good at things being the time to use the skills. A handicap system where players were rewarded more for killing people with a better win/loss ration than them. A very carefully controlled economy so that the progression of items remains how it should be for the most fun.
Player control would be completely up to the players. There would be some skill like tracking or something to allow bounty hunters to chase after transgressors, however once they found them they would recieve no artificial help.
Combat would be fast paced and involved enough that people must act on instinct. It should be really intimidating with loud noises and scary death animations like in fallout or mortal kombat or something.
There would be factions that fought for control of resources, ones that would actually be used by in game players to make items that people used.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Phrozt - level 128 Battle Mage on Asheron's call DT
Aros de Phrozt - level 57 Bow
Dio dell'ascia - TANK axe
Lo Lo told you, You are play PK is Pig
++ Now playing Risk Your Life
Phrozt - level 177 Battle Mage on Asheron's call DT
Lo Lo told you, You are play PK is Pig
Current: Asheron's Call > Darktide, Wow (Just to check stats)
Old: Shadowbane, Dark and Light, Risk Your Life
For once I agree with you: Having been a d2 hc veteran (lvl 80+ chars and druid bears on top of it) I must say that there is nothing more exhilirating than lvling up with a hard hitting low lvl assassin with lvl 80s and 90s in the game, on the same map. I don't think any mmorpg has come close to the fun that I had had in that one short year of d2 hc:
You actually feel an adrenaline rush when you take your lvl 50-60 char out to face it's death with all of your valuable exceptional unique items (lost countless bartucs and such, and being non duped hc they were quite a prize).
Permadeath makes playing that much more intensive, since you have to approach your decisions that you make with your character with utter clarity "Will I trust that high lvl person not to shoot a guided up my ass?" "Should I make that treasure run to Mephisto even though I am only lvl 40?"
I am not sure if this proposal is economically optimal, nor do I care: I think that hc chars should be given their own server and that there be a free for all, kill anyone, sort of system, where however pking will result in grave circumstances with the players faction/alliance, such that entering towns etc. will be quite a task if you are a notorious pker, which would allow lower lvls to gain the lvls necessary to get equal footing.
Actually there is a game with a very similar PvP system (Dark Fall) sans permadeath. I am crossing my fingers and hoping that one of the next generation companies will come out with a "hardcore" (d2 term) mode that will allow players that crave a rush to play with the fear of death in them
//\//\00 (oVV
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
lol... permadeath is rediculous in most mmorpgs that exist so far. Obviously its not rediculous in FPS'es because character advancement consists of picking up weapons of the ground. The question is if you have an mmorpg that is in between how bad is it? I think there is a balance where you dont loose all motivation to play when you die but you damn well think twice before getting into fights. There are some games coming out similar to this idea that should provide more information to be sure.
I think fallout is a good example of how important levels should be in this type of game.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I've come to the following conclusion after reading and pondering most of the posts in this forum, please tell me what you think about my new and improved idea.
- Open PVP, (meaning you can attack other player anyware)
- PVP can affect your alignment
- Dueling Center near the edge of the village, the only place where you can duel. When you duel you don't have to worry about items dropping or exp loss, its just for fun.
- Bounty System: Players can post bounties on other players. Mutiple players may contribute towards one bounty, increasing the reward. Upon placing the bounty the reward amount is immediately deducted from the players bank account.
- If you fight in the town, unless your in the dueling area, you will be attacked by npc's. (Pking in towns creates lag due to the mass numbers of players there, along with making a lot of poeple unhappy).
Open PvP = forced PvP and very often griefing, so not a good idea, think zones with PvP is better, so those that don't want PvP can stay away and still enjoy the game.
Other than that I like the rest, another possiblility is to have a PvP switch (that you only can change once a week/month or so) all that have the PvP switch on are open for PvP everywhere and maybe gain 10% more xp or something to encourage people to have it on.
Need some more rules around PvP switch for it to work good ofcourse, but I think that's an good option.
This is ofcourse if it's a normal server and not a PvP server, PvP server should have open PvP with afew rules depending on the game.
-------------------------
Azzazzimon
-------------------------
Azzazzimon
PvP is best done if you have proper enemies and proper safe havens.
If i am a human and i see an orc i can expect a fight. whereas if i see a human i dont, so if that human kills me i get annoyed. Therefore that human shouldnt be able to kill me, alternatively if he was a human from one city and me from another i may know he is an enemy and expect a fight, this means you know who is going to kill you and who wont.
Also if i am in my nations capital city i should expect to be safe, as we should have guards to stop enemies getting in. These guards shouldnt be Uber, so that if the enemy musters an army they can attack and have a hope of victory.
if this happens it will take the random element out of PvP, and thats the worst thing. Also PvP should have a reward in the same way as PvE, maybe xp depending on the level difference. And if a high level kills a noob without provocation (or without being an enemy) then the noob could possibly even leach xp from the high level.
Muahahahahahahaha
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
I agree... Random killing where a guy walks up, acts friendly and then stabs you in the back sucks...
If you know who the enemy is, it is a lot more fun. Like the Race War server EQ had. It was fun to play...
exactly my point mate. i remember a long long ago i used to play neocron, i was unemployed and played about 16 hours a day for 5 months or so. I had a fully maxed character and was about as hard as they come, i enjoyed the PvE and PvP in outpost battles etc. then one guy walked up to me while i was waiting for a gun to be made, he said hello then when i pressed return to type back (which means i cant shoot or anything in chat mode) he killed me.
That annoyed me so much i quit that day and never played again.
Muahahahahahahaha
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
How is permadeath ridiculous(NOTE THIS SPELLING) to those people that live on the edge (or want to)? I am sure that a substantial number of potential MMORPGERS would salivate over a hardcore mode(including myself).
All I know is that hundreds of thousands of people that played the ridiculously(note the spelling) horrible d2 hardcore mode would be more than willing to pay for a fine mmorpg equivalent: Imagine having bounty hunts on notorious players, or a RIDICULOUS sum of money on a poster in every city and townhall. It would add a whole new dimension to mmorpg (or rather one that hasn't been explored yet because all of you are damn sissies)
Maybe for you tots the idea of losing all the time invested is horrid, but for some people (stock holder inclusive) there is nothing more fun than making a gamble every second. People could establish entire guilds devoted to PKKIng (killing player killers). But I doubt that it will ever happen given that you 5 year olds wet your pants at the slightest mention of PERMADEATH.
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme."
-ICP
Toy Box
Riddle Box
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
When you can discuss something without calling people names when they don't agree with you it would be alot more interesting and people would maybe even try to see your view of it and try to understand it.
I will try to just ignore you name calling and reply anyway..
MMORPGs are built in a total diffrent way than D2 or FPSers, people spend ALOT more time building their characters, getting items, socializing and everything, having perma death won't work for many reasons.
The number of people that have spent 50+ days building a char just to die because of a lag spike and then restart the game are way too low for any company to make a MMORPG around it.
We have seen several MMORPGs that have tried to build a game around PvP fail big time, with perma death it's even less chance to succeed.
I think it would be interesting to see a establized MMORPG open a PvP server with perma death tho, most likly people will lvl up first and then be too afraid to PvP and after that just start new characters so it wil be lvl 1-2 chars PvPing and the whole world except the newbie ground will be deserted.
-------------------------
Azzazzimon
-------------------------
Azzazzimon
..... my god, you people are so sensitive. I did not mean to offend any adult: It was more exhortational than anything else. I did not explicitly refer to those that play mmorpgers as bed wetting children, because I am myself a mmorpger.
The only difference is that there is a much more competitive element in d2 than there is in most rpgs, (even with the upcoming castle siege crap). But there is another market for people like me that would kill to see a MMORPG with a hardcore element.
People like me have a very high WTP so that we could compensate for the lack in demand, and our demand curves are very elastic, considering that most of us could deal with the horrid graphics and lag time in d2.
People like me would also require little to no gms, because we can think for ourselves (assuming the game is not bug ridden), which is another needless expense (the game design should be self-sustaining).
And to think that there were around 100-200k of me playing a crap game like d2 hc back in the day.
Another accusation: d2 hc players do not roleplay. I was part of a HARDCORE roleplay server on NVN. Where you couldn't even OOC or anything of the sort and it caught more of my attention than AO and RO combined. I am an experienced roleplayer and can do so for hours (as long as my companions are willing), so saying that the set of people that play online rpgs such as d2 does not include roleplayers is inane.
All I am looking for is a MMORPG for ADULTS like myself with a degree of sophistication and CHALLENGE.
Hardcore (permadeath) encompasses both of these aspects.
The intent of the previous post was to see if anyone would react positively, but it seems like most people/(or the set of them on mmorpg.com) have different interests.
So don't misconstrue any of these posts as some kind of criticism.
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme."
-ICP
Toy Box
Riddle Box
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.