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We discuss low-sec
CaptRedHand
Member Posts: 54
in EVE Online
Well since I'm on sabbatical from EVE until the summer, and can't use the EVE-O Forums I thought maybe we could discuss this here. 
With the continual push by CCP of mission runners et al. from high-sec Empire. Do you feel low-sec needs a closer inspection? Do you think it's broke and what would you do to fix it?
With the continual push by CCP of mission runners et al. from high-sec Empire. Do you feel low-sec needs a closer inspection? Do you think it's broke and what would you do to fix it?
Comments
I dont think its broken tbh. Low sec is actually very safe if you have more than 2 brain cells. As long as your paying attention youll be ok most of the time. I run missions a lot to make isk and i see no problem in giong into low sec to do some. Maybe its because i have been doing many in low sec since i started the game. I think its good to move some agents to low actually. It helps the fluffy ones realize that its not as bad as it seems.
Ive met so many players who have never ventured below .5 because they hear horror sotires from people, what they need to realize is that encounters differ from person to person. I know many hardcore mission runners are threatening defection and all but i dont see a big problem with this transfer. Some say it benefits the pirates.....it could....if the missions runners are total idiots. Low sec is one of the worst places to pirare anyway.
Im sure there are many who will differ in opinion but thats what i think. I dont care either or, ive been running low sec missions for a while. When i get bored i go hunting prey with my friends. Its just a game.
I personally feel that low-sec in EVE lacks gradation. I think CCP's early idea for it was roving bands of Concord and a gradual lessening of security. The problem now is that it's just a sheer cliff. You got from "safe" .5 space directly to "completely unsafe" .4 space.
A lot of new players, PVE players, Industrials just don't feel comfortable with a sharp drop off of their security. And the numbers in space I think clearly show this behavior. I'm sure a lot of the more PVP inclined players will get upset at even entertaining the idea of altering low-sec to a more gradual fall-off, but honestly, it's much more realistic than what we have now. Plus if you want more targets, your going to have to make those targets at least feel more comfortable about coming down there.
This is what I think could work:
A gradual fall off from .4 to .1 of Concord presence. Now I don't mean hovering around gates and stations, I would leave them with just turrets like they are now. What I am referring to is roving fleets. Example: your a miner, you get jumped by some pirates, you have odds of Concord showing up lets say between 1-4 minutes. This variation would get wider and wider the further down you go in security.
By providing this extra level of maybe, or maybe not, security someone might be willing to risk a ship.
Now you can promptly shoot my idea full of holes.
Thing is....
1.0 0.9 0.8 0.7 0.6 0.5...........These zones are meant to be safe...............0.4 0.3 0.2 0.1 ...................These Zones are low sec and also known as 0.0 training.......................0.0.................This is ZERO security.
Now you see there is the slow graduation between empire [safe] space and low sec space. Low sec is meant to be as it is because its basically a training zone for 0.0.
As for the changes comming up to the mission system i personally feel its a bit premiture to judge it when its not even out yet. But i understand your concern.
Almost for got to put this in lol.....
At 0.1 space there are usually 8 gate guns by every gate and station and police answer within 5-10 seconds, This goes down to about 4 gate guns to 2 guns at mst gates and station and police can take 30 seconds to answer your distress in 0.5 space.
At 0.4 space there is no police but you do get gate guns at most stations and gates. Then to 0.1 where not only is there no police but most gates now have 0 sentry guns and at most you get 2 at stations.
So you see there is a graduall change in security.
You know as well as I that you need larger and larger groups to do anything in lower sec space. And the fact remains that most players don't want the hassle of having to be in a gang all the time to go to low-sec. I know that CCP and a lot of players expect and want players to do that. But face it, it's never going to happen.
With my idea at least your giving the semblance of safety and the chance that if they can hold on help might be coming. Expecting that players will constantly rely on other players, especially with that amount of paranoia that exists in EVE, is just not going to happen.
One more factor to consider here. Perception is a very big part of it. Sure, I can find a quite place in low-sec, done it plenty of times. But your not going to convince the majority of players that it's feasible. You've also got to weigh in cost factors with industrial players. More than any other group they will factor in cost of doing business. If their ROI is too low they won't bother. So if you can get them to perceive that they will have some safety, even if its marginal away from gates and stations. Then they might risk it.
The main problem is the diffrence between a PVE and a PVP setup.
The secondary problems are as stated above that low sec is treated as no sec. It was better back when criminals were treated as such (way back on 03). Back when you did not need local to know a pirat had entered the system because if they were two low 2 below the sec rate of the system you saw the broadcast "(prat name) you kind are not welcome here" If you were in a .2 system that ment a -4 just entered the system. So you could join the chase as concord was on there way so the Prat only had 10-12 min hit and run.
The real problem is that the reasion for setting low sec and 0.0 (moving all the ore out) was done because of few players there were. With modern numbers there is no reasion to continue to try and feed the rats.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
Hmm i think ill need to sleep on this one.
What will help though is a well organized grouping system. Some way for random players who want to go out into low sec can find each other without jumping from chat channel to chat channel and asking. Once that system is in place would would be able to organize into small one time gangs that have a specific purpose; like mining in .3 space or gangs to hunt down PC pirates. A step further is to have that gang declare its objective and based on what they declare give them tools to help them. Like PC pirate hunters get a minimal with sightings of pirates, etc.
Some well-thought out and presented discussions in this thread
One of the problems when I played the game (although I should be re-subbing in a week or so) is that whilst 0.0 non-Empire space was huge, access was a fundamental problem: with relatively few exceptions, all 0.0 non-Empire space have one or two entry routes that are choke-points i.e. access to and from 0.0 non-Empire space is controlled by a choke-point - which is nothing more than a killing ground for any pilot who isn't either a part of the alliance controlling that region or a friend.
I argued that restriction through choke-points was unrealistic because a border is porous by nature; instead have different routes (longer, more tortuous i.e. more jumps) that lead to 0.0 non-Empire space, but once within that space, then progressing deeper and further will get harder as the space constricts. In other words, let the Alliances have to work to choose what part of their region they will defend - and how lightly or heavily. As it stands now, you have blob vs blob at the choke-points and atomize any ship that isn't a 'friend' on your FOF [friend or foe] list.
One of Eve's selling points that pulled me in originally was the potential for player-controlled Alliances to control vast areas of space, and create permanent and semi-permanent structures - the whole Wild West frontier aspect of having to go out into an hostile and uncaring environment, where law and justice is dependent on how many hard-points you have; staking a claim and defending that claim. The error was that whilst that is possible, the use of choke-points has completely shut out 0.0 non-Empire space to most of the player-base, and grossly skewed risk vs reward.
Going back to the original point, I completely agree that there should be a gradation of security as one slides down from 0.5 and lower. Risk vs reward should also improve on a sliding scale. As it stands, there is absolutely NO difference in .04 space and 0.0 Empire space with regards to the security hit. I'm not sure about complexes and risk vs reward as I've been out of the game for quite some time.
I prefer incentives (such as gradation) rather than taking a big stick and forcing players towards a goal. The former provides a carrot and rewards those who are prepared to take a few risks; whilst the latter pisses off people for being forced into a playing-style that they dislike and the net result is a lot of lost subs without actually achieving the objective.
Regards,
Riotgirl
P.s. Time to dust down Cassi O'Peia, as I've lost the account info to Liscia Thierese.
P.p.s Whoops! looks like I've lost the account info for Cassi O'Peia, and not Liscia Thierese. Hence, Liscia Thierese is resurrected! Which is good, because:
1. She has more SP
2. I RPed her both ingame and (rather aggressively) in the forums
3. I liquidated all of my assets and gave them to a friend
One of those is NOT good! I might not even have an ISK or a ship to my name! Oh nose! I stand corrected: I have 1 ISK to my name. Well, whoop di do!
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
Which is why in some cases, like it or not, an NPC type police force shows up and helps you out. I do like they idea of re-introducing the ability of players to join Concord in pursuit.
Hey I have a thought .... to spice it up can we introduce something like Reavers? Like to know which sicko's wanta RP that one.
The problem you see is a result of them making the game safer and safer over the past few years.When I started playing I was killing miners,.It was really the only way I coude make fast cash as a newb,.T2miner lasers were 5 mill a pop at the time,and people flew around in thorax miners,.I used to kill them in 0.8.7.6 no prob,.I would jump dodge the concord till they gave up,.and I would be back at it,.Killing someone else 10 mins later.
I did stop after I had the isk for all my skills,I only killed around 7 thoraxs,. but it was easy,.and it may have been game breaking for thos players at the time.As the game grew,.so did the griefing,.your just seeing a much more reinforced empire,.And your right,.there is a cliff now from safe to not safe.
Now 0.0 should be just like it is. Your on your own and will get zero help.
In 0.5 CONCORD is very efficient throughout the system. In 0.4 you have some sentry guns around the gates and nothing in the belts. So player pirates can and will shoot people. I've lost a few ships that way myself. And the NPC pirates in 0.5 are insignificant compared to a typical player pirate.
Others have posted some interesting ideas about adding some more CONCORD presence to low sec. Maybe there should also be a graduation between invincible CONCORD and not-so-impressive CONCORD. As in, Concord in 0.5 can be fought off by strong player groups. And the best you can hope for in 0.1 is a squad of frigates.
In 0.5 CONCORD is very efficient throughout the system. In 0.4 you have some sentry guns around the gates and nothing in the belts. So player pirates can and will shoot people. I've lost a few ships that way myself. And the NPC pirates in 0.5 are insignificant compared to a typical player pirate.
Others have posted some interesting ideas about adding some more CONCORD presence to low sec. Maybe there should also be a graduation between invincible CONCORD and not-so-impressive CONCORD. As in, Concord in 0.5 can be fought off by strong player groups. And the best you can hope for in 0.1 is a squad of frigates.
I like the idea of conquerable Concord below .5 Make it more conquerable the closer you get to 0.0.
Now if only a few Dev's could stop by and endorse our ideas.
Its not broken,It used to have a decline in risk,People complained,so they made it safer.Now repeat that till you have so many changes its what you see it as today,.A vary vary safe empire,with a drop at 0.4.Its what alot of non pvpers wanted an got.I didnt care.So long as it dont effect 0.4 or lower.I dont think it ever will,.
CCP never wanted players to spend all there time inempire,.Npc rats used to start in 0.6 and lower, cruisers in .3 and for a fighter thats all you had,.or kill players,.But this was boring,.so they put in lvl1/2/3 agents,.was perfect..But once the lvl4's were put in ,.everone that did them got so rich there was no point in 0.0 rat isk or minning.
so yea,.move them to low sec.
Keep in mind I used mission runners as an example, that's not what this thread is about. It's really about how to fix any perceived problems with the low-sec combat system.
However, the situation could be eased with simpler adjustments such as increased gate links in key chokepoints. CCP's current approach has simply been to add more chokepoints, but this seems inadequate to me. Were it not for the lowsec chokepoints at the moment, there would be almost no low sec piracy at all though. As is, even they are largely inneffective versus most smaller, faster vessels.
Most traditional pirates that I know have been making the transition to empire wars.
There is no problem with combat,its just hard to be fitted for pvp and minning,. or Misstion.Just need to adapt.Sart fitting pvp counter items,.such as jammers, sensor dampers,ect.use your imagination,.Buy urself time to get away.make more bookmarks,.join the corps in the area ect.and so on.
What im getting at is,.0.4 is as safe as its going to get.what your talking about is scaling it back into 0.5.6. Make them less safe perhaps but the low sec 0.4-0.1 is as safe as its going to get.I meen you get a warning befor you enter,.Its really a enter at your own risk.
I think it used to better when there wasint such a drop,0.5 0.6 you still had to keep your eyes open a bit,.its not like that anymore,.It was questions and debates like yours that pushed the safety to the edge of 0.4.Not to be rude or harsh but,.they got it,.so deal with it.or be the new voice that helps bring back the not so safe .5.6.used to take concord up to 30 seconds to respond,.Im not going to go into what can be done in 30 seconds.
Look, the system is not working, the map and numbers prove it. The system needs to be improved, keeping status quo for one group of players who like it that way isn't going to help ease less danger prone players into lower security areas. Haven't CCP been trying that since Exodus came out two years ago?
Unless of course your more of the mindset that you like your player number small so it induces less lag and appears more "hardcore". But then again, your not going to see the game develop as fast ... if your into that kind of thing.
Yes they been doing it since release,They have been making high sec more safe.so safe in fact that theres a cliff now at 0.4.There used to be a "grading" as you call it in high sec.But it is all gone now due to the changes to make it safer.If your not missing the point then ,.what your asking is to expand the safe zone's into 0.4 and lower,.Grade it there? But then whats next? reinforce it over time pushing the cliff to 0.0? then what?
I been watching this game grow since release,.to be honest I thot it would die out fast,I loved the game,.but I was one of the few.But each month players came in,.and online active players grew,.The game is still gorwing at the same rate,today,.vary vary slow,.but its growing.
Players are born and grow in the empire,.only a small % ever leave.Its the way eve is.Its what makes it great,.Only the brave venture into 0.0 to explore its freedom and pots of gold.100% on your own,.As the player base in empire grows,.more small % of players venture into 0.0.The empire is done well,.its to lock you into the game for a few months or 6 or a year what ever,.And when your ready you venture out,.into the world of eve.