No MMO requires "skill" in the sense that an FPS requires "skill". Not a single one. WoW is not unique for not requiring "skill". Every MMO is about learning the few things it takes to manipulate your character/ship/whatever, push appropriate buttons at the appropriate time and so forth. All of them are like that. Criticizing WoW for that is pointless because the criticism can be rightly leveled at every MMO on the market, bar none.
To the OP, I would suggest not trying WoW. It gets less rewarding as you continue playing and before you know it you will have lost many hours of your life to a rather pointless that will leave you feeling cheated.
I really want to demonstrate this to you in some honest way, but there is no way to really explain the feeling without you having gone through it yourself. Between the ruined lives, suicides, and whatnot, I think you can draw a picture for yourself of what this game does to people.
I hope things turn out well for you, and you make the right choice!
try the tylerthedrui MMO where you will find infinite unyielding enjoyment that'll make your head explode!
Actually I'm laughing at my desk after reading that one.
The Kaiaphas MMORPG is better, it has 20 million players (and all of them can't lie, either). Actually, it's exactly like WoW. So after you've finished WoW you can work on finishing Kaiaphas MMORPG - or at least hire some people to help finish it, it is RATHER dull and you might prefer to go do some office work while having others play the game for you. But for reasons Kaiaphas won't overtly say, it is AWESOME.
No MMO requires "skill" in the sense that an FPS requires "skill". Not a single one. WoW is not unique for not requiring "skill". Every MMO is about learning the few things it takes to manipulate your character/ship/whatever, push appropriate buttons at the appropriate time and so forth. All of them are like that. Criticizing WoW for that is pointless because the criticism can be rightly leveled at every MMO on the market, bar none.
It's a fun game that gets boring quickly. Although, since you would be fresh into the game, it could be fun for about half a year (maybe less). Leveling on a pvp server is fun cuz there is actually world pvp while lvling. Once you max lvl don't expect any REAL outdoor pvp experiences to happen that often. Once at lvl 70 all you will do is instance/raid and battleground/arena. If you do join most Horde dominate in PVP and alliance are better at instances (depends on server... but for the most part this applies to the majority of servers you choose).
Anyway... wow is all about gear and nothing else. I guess if you're into RP it could be a little more fun. Be prepared for kids that beg you all the damn time, ninja looters, and just corny people in general. Also be prepared to grind to lvl, get rep, honor points, arena points, and farm. PVP is fun and the fighting has a lot more action than other MMOs i've played. The only problem is it's unbalanced when it comes to skill and gear. IMO instances suck after the first few times you've run them. I get bored easy from the stupid AI... The mobs are not even a tiny bit smart, just strong.
If you do start playing, my advice to you is find the best guild you can join at 60 for whatever you want to do. Without that you're stuck with pick up groups for everything. I just stopped playing recently. TBC was real fun till I got to 70 and it was the same routine as 60 and it only took me about 2 weeks to gain 10 lvls. As of right now, nothing is out that seems interesting. I'm just gonna have to wait on spellborn, conan, or WAR. Fury looks like it might be fun for some quick PVP action. Hopefully one of these games does a good job.
I'm a 20 something college student who's looking for an mmorpg to play, I've been around the block. I've played everything as old as EQ to everything as new as V:SOH. Just wondering if you fine folks could give me some pointers. I'm looking for a game that can hold my interest, can keep me entertained for the longeset possible period of time, and has a good learning curve. I've strayed away fro WoW before, but it looks like that may be where I have to end up, because everyone's there. Please note the only reasons I've strayed before have been kind of stupid (i.e. cartoony graphics, sometimes overly comical looking characters). Is there anything you folks can suggest to me. Thanks I appreciate it.
World of Warcraft is an easy game which lacks almost any challenge what-so-ever. Once you max out your character which will take approximately 12-15 days for the average player (2-4 hours / 4-8 hours per day ) you will be able to enter raids. World of Warcraft can easily be played alone from levels 1-69. Upon reaching level 70, you may find yourself in a guild raiding the various areas of World of Warcraft, including the upcoming 25 man raid - The Black Temple where you will fight Illidan, a Demon Hunter who fell into madness after losing to Arthas at the Frozen Throne.
The game is fun at levels 1-69. There's plenty to do. You will rush to 40 so you can ride your mount. After 40 things slow down and you start to feel the sting of boredom. You now rush to 58 to participate in the outlands, which is the best part of World of Warcraft ( if you plan on playing the game - BUY the expansion or miss out on everything ).
You'll spend the last part of your life there, doing quests like you have before - Go to point A talk to <insert name>, return to point B, talk to <insert name2> and kill 20 fel orc peons and collect their blood.
Once you get to 70, you will find yourself grinding. And I don't mean this lightly. When I say grinding, I mean *grinding*. You will have to grind for everything. From reputation, keys needed to participate in dungeons, cash for your flying epic mount, Motes to make your items, and materials to make consumables for raids.
You will spend 85% of your time at 70 grinding materials so you can compete in the end game.
the other 15% will be spent either 1.) looking for groups for places like Shadow labs, Black Morass, etc. Or raiding places like Karahzan to collect sub-par loot that is in a lot of ways worse than what you can get from other places.
Level 70 is completely different. Unlike 1-69, you will *need* a strong guild to participate in the game at this point. Without it you are running around grinding as you wait for a Pick up group to appear, or standing around Shattrath picking your nose, or watching TV as you spam the /trade channel for a group, or use the /who feature to ask people separately if they are interested in a group, all while waiting patiently for a group to ask you to join from the Looking for group tool, which is unreliable because a lot of people refuse to use it or just simply do not know how.
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PvP at lower levels is a twink fest ( twink is a character funded by higher level characters who spend money to give their lower level character insane equipment and enchants which makes them nay impossible to beat by the common player ).
You may find yourself being frustrated by the complaints, insults, and overall bad attitude by the players in your group, or you may not be finding yourself PvPing at all, because you realize that the game is completely messed up due to the population imbalances ( in some cases, alliance outnumber the horde 4 to 1!!!! )
Be careful if you join a PvP server. You will find yourself killed over and over while someone you have never met before who is 50 levels higher than you. Once he kills you he then camps your rotting corpse for hours until you frustratingly give up and log. If you are upset about this. Tough break, it *is* a PvP server, right? "L2p noob"; an all too common phrase on the forums if you were to complain about this.
Which is another thing. Never read the forums. They're full of nonsense and ignorance and simply thinking about reading them could cause you to go into a coma.
Posts like "etc is overpowered" and "Guys are gay if they play female characters" or "Blizzard is stupid and needs to nerf rogues" fill the boards.
If you want an easy game that literally requires no thought to it, but a few button presses. A game that has the easiest learning curve of any game I have ever played, then WoW is for you.
I don't know what the allure of WoW is, but once you start playing you just can't stop. Its a drug that consumes your soul. Deep down you wonder why you like the game, but no matter what you just can't stop playing. It's like smoking. You know deep down you're killing yourself, but try as you must, you can't stop.
Hope that helps some.
this may be the best post I have ever read on MMORPG. That's saying a lot. Also, you have summed up WoW's soul, or lack of one, in a few paragraphs, well done.
Some MMOs seem to require skill in certain areas and time in others. I guess it's a matter of the part of the MMO.
Something like that.
My point is that even things that "pass" for "skill" in MMOs really aren't "skill". Let's take EVE Online. I played EVE for 2+ years and know it well. Lots of EVE players like to post here about how EVE requires skill, but I have to say that this is bunk. What EVE requires is the patience to learn the game (i.e., time) and the more elaborate rock-paper-scissors scheme CCP has put in place for EVE, so that you know how to fit your ships for certain situations, the patience to go hunting for targets or, in a lot cases, wait around for targets to show up, and knowing what sequence of buttons to press in what order to lead to a succesful engagement (or knowing what to press to get away if you don't want to engage). None of that is really "skill". It's simply learning the mechanics of the rock-paper-scissors game (and admittedly EVE's is a bit more complex than others so you need to invest time to learn it) and then learning what to press when -- it's a matter of experience and learning the game (which takes time) rather than "skill". Yet EVE players walk around talking about how EVE requires skill, and it is complete bunk. It takes no skill, it simply takes knowledge of the game and the willingness to invest time into learning what is rather more complex than average iteration of the old rock-paper-scissors mechanic that lies behind every game.
Ganers give themselves airs, IMO, when they talk about "skills" and how "skilled" they are. Playing a musical instrument involves skill. Painting a painting involves skill. Playing a computer game does not -- it is simply a matter of learning the mechanic and learning what to press when. Sure some people have faster reflexes than others and can press the buttons faster or think faster on their feet than others and can adapt faster -- but that just means people are "faster" not "skilled".
Some MMOs seem to require skill in certain areas and time in others. I guess it's a matter of the part of the MMO.
Something like that.
My point is that even things that "pass" for "skill" in MMOs really aren't "skill". Let's take EVE Online. I played EVE for 2+ years and know it well. Lots of EVE players like to post here about how EVE requires skill, but I have to say that this is bunk. What EVE requires is the patience to learn the game (i.e., time) and the more elaborate rock-paper-scissors scheme CCP has put in place for EVE, so that you know how to fit your ships for certain situations, the patience to go hunting for targets or, in a lot cases, wait around for targets to show up, and knowing what sequence of buttons to press in what order to lead to a succesful engagement (or knowing what to press to get away if you don't want to engage). None of that is really "skill". It's simply learning the mechanics of the rock-paper-scissors game (and admittedly EVE's is a bit more complex than others so you need to invest time to learn it) and then learning what to press when -- it's a matter of experience and learning the game (which takes time) rather than "skill". Yet EVE players walk around talking about how EVE requires skill, and it is complete bunk. It takes no skill, it simply takes knowledge of the game and the willingness to invest time into learning what is rather more complex than average iteration of the old rock-paper-scissors mechanic that lies behind every game.
Ganers give themselves airs, IMO, when they talk about "skills" and how "skilled" they are. Playing a musical instrument involves skill. Painting a painting involves skill. Playing a computer game does not -- it is simply a matter of learning the mechanic and learning what to press when. Sure some people have faster reflexes than others and can press the buttons faster or think faster on their feet than others and can adapt faster -- but that just means people are "faster" not "skilled".
Pretty good. I like your argument alot. Playing an instrument requires innovation, as does chess (chess is my favorite analogy). Someone will come here an argue that music is the exact same sort of memorization without realizing what you're saying, and all I have to say is a pre-emptive 'fuck you'.
Alot of older strategy games (the news ones are flashy trash IMO) and even modern RTS games require thinking, creativity, and intelligence, despite not being over-complicated... which brings me to a big rant of mine. Complication does not necessarily make for novel gameplay! It's like giving each piece on the chessboard 10 moves and HP and saying that now the game requires skill. I don't think the people who first dreamed up DND would ever realize what perversions people would derive from their system. In WoW you have hundreds of meaningless skills (look at the poor warlocks, they have waaaay too many abilities to have a general direction in their class) rather than a defined set of powers that effect your choices in battle. When dueling another WoW player, it isn't innovation or trickery that you win by - it is crits and misses, or some proper combination of a smattering of spell/abilities much like a paint-fight between two children. Either that or one side of the fight is completely and one-sidedly more powerful. The rock-paper-scissors concept is fine and all, however - although in WoW there really isn't a rock/paper/scissors system.
Originally posted by tylerthedrui Alot of older strategy games (the news ones are flashy trash IMO) and even modern RTS games require thinking, creativity, and intelligence, despite not being over-complicated... which brings me to a big rant of mine. Complication does not necessarily make for novel gameplay! It's like giving each piece on the chessboard 10 moves and HP and saying that now the game requires skill. I don't think the people who first dreamed up DND would ever realize what perversions people would derive from their system. In WoW you have hundreds of meaningless skills (look at the poor warlocks, they have waaaay too many abilities to have a general direction in their class) rather than a defined set of powers that effect your choices in battle. When dueling another WoW player, it isn't innovation or trickery that you win by - it is crits and misses, or some proper combination of a smattering of spell/abilities much like a paint-fight between two children. Either that or one side of the fight is completely and one-sidedly more powerful. The rock-paper-scissors concept is fine and all, however - although in WoW there really isn't a rock/paper/scissors system.
It's true. WoW's system is more about getting the best gear and knowing what buttons to press against the type of class you are fighting. More often than not, gear determines who wins. Rarely are you seeing two truly equally geared, equally leveled players fighting -- if you do, then it's a question of who knows which of their buttons works best against their adversary and presses them faster than their adversary -- and of course gets somewhat lucky with crits.
Implementing the D&D system requires having more complex gameplay beyond simply combat. WoW decided to focus on combat (I suppose guessing that this is what most players want), so the classes are all combat classes. The idea of a D&D thief, whose main utility in a party involves detecting and disabling traps and picking locked doors, presupposes locked doors and traps. DDO tried to have that, and did that aspect reasonably well, but did so many other things wrong that it was kind of a mess of a game. But in all one of the most salient criticisms of WoW, in my view, is that it is overly focused on combat and doesn't have enough non-combat complexity in its encounters. It's why every class is a DPS class, in a sense (or rather has a DPS tree). It's done that way in part, I think, to allow people to solo the content -- whereas D&D's system doesn't really contemplate soloing, but rather having a party of people with different abilities. It's one of my main gripes with WoW's designers: the group content pretty much is like the solo content except ratcheted up harder in terms of (1) numbers of mobs, (2) mob DPS and (3) mob HP. There isn't any door that requires a rogue to open. There isn't any encounter that specifically requires a unique Druid skill, or a unique warlock skill, and so on. It's all tank/spank/heal, and that, at the end of the day, is pretty oversimplified. Now, it is MUCH much harder to make a game where the encounters require special skills from some classes ... but it's a much more interesting game.
No MMO requires "skill" in the sense that an FPS requires "skill". Not a single one. WoW is not unique for not requiring "skill". Every MMO is about learning the few things it takes to manipulate your character/ship/whatever, push appropriate buttons at the appropriate time and so forth. All of them are like that. Criticizing WoW for that is pointless because the criticism can be rightly leveled at every MMO on the market, bar none.
Yup, thats what I was trying to say Than what seperates me from any of the people I play against, why am I able to own up the Alliance at all 1 vrs 1, if skill is not a factor?
How am I able to kill someone 1 on 1, with usually better gear then me, without potting, if this game requires no skill?
EDIT; WoW is critisized for having PvP that is completely gear dependant, and it is. It is often like twinks at all levels, there are moments when I get pissed off because someone in T3 is jumping around just messing with me, because they can do it due to my inferior gear.
WoW is a very, very easy game. It can be fun, and there is certainly a great deal of content to keep you occupied, but as other people have said the endgame leaves much to be desired. Until then, the game is wonderful. That said, I have recently quit WoW because the expansion did nothing to help the game, save to add more of the same kind of content. Outland is no more dangerous than anywhere else. But you have to go there to get better items, and to level up further (with any alacrity).
So, it could be a fun game, but if you want a serious challenge, or a comfortable RP atmosphere, don't bother. There are roleplayers, but most of them are very strange, and don't really do RP like you may find familliar if that is your bag from other games. Many players are young children, and if you RP with them in a way they don't like, they whine at you, and try to God-mod to a place they want to be. You won't find it difficult to solo anywhere except the instanced dungeons, and there you have to have a group of X people, and really, usually a guild to get anything done but waiting to look for a group.
Try the free trial, but keep in mind that a great deal of the problems arise at the level cap. It might be what you are looking for, but what I am doing is I went out and preordered LOTRO so I can try the open beta next week. That's probably a bias because I love those stories, and I am hoping beyong hope that it is a good game.
Remember to take what you read in my post, and others', with a grain of salt or two. They are all opinions, and as such may not reflect how you would feel about the game had you been playing as long as I have. It's all a matter of taste, but I wish you luck in finding that one game that really, really satisfies the hunger.
EDIT: I know I didn't touch on PvP, because I haven't played much of it, but from what I have heard, people talking about gear dependence hit the nail on the head.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by NierroThan what seperates me from any of the people I play against, why am I able to own up the Alliance at all 1 vrs 1, if skill is not a factor?
How am I able to kill someone 1 on 1, with usually better gear then me, without potting, if this game requires no skill?
It may be because
(1) you have learned your class and know how to use it against the other class you are fighting;
(2) you have memorized certain finger movements so that you can react faster
(3) you naturally have a quick reaction time.
None of those are "skill". Painting is a "skill" as is playing a musical instrument. Learning to play a character in a video game is something that can accentuate your hobby, but it isn't a "skill", and playing characters well does not require "skill" -- instead it requires learning the class (which is a time investment) and having quick fingers. I know people long for this to be called "skill", but in my opinion it's fruitless and distorting to refer to this as "skill" -- it's more like experience, knowledge and reaction time.
Some MMOs seem to require skill in certain areas and time in others. I guess it's a matter of the part of the MMO.
Something like that.
My point is that even things that "pass" for "skill" in MMOs really aren't "skill". Let's take EVE Online. I played EVE for 2+ years and know it well. Lots of EVE players like to post here about how EVE requires skill, but I have to say that this is bunk. What EVE requires is the patience to learn the game (i.e., time) and the more elaborate rock-paper-scissors scheme CCP has put in place for EVE, so that you know how to fit your ships for certain situations, the patience to go hunting for targets or, in a lot cases, wait around for targets to show up, and knowing what sequence of buttons to press in what order to lead to a succesful engagement (or knowing what to press to get away if you don't want to engage). None of that is really "skill". It's simply learning the mechanics of the rock-paper-scissors game (and admittedly EVE's is a bit more complex than others so you need to invest time to learn it) and then learning what to press when -- it's a matter of experience and learning the game (which takes time) rather than "skill". Yet EVE players walk around talking about how EVE requires skill, and it is complete bunk. It takes no skill, it simply takes knowledge of the game and the willingness to invest time into learning what is rather more complex than average iteration of the old rock-paper-scissors mechanic that lies behind every game.
Ganers give themselves airs, IMO, when they talk about "skills" and how "skilled" they are. Playing a musical instrument involves skill. Painting a painting involves skill. Playing a computer game does not -- it is simply a matter of learning the mechanic and learning what to press when. Sure some people have faster reflexes than others and can press the buttons faster or think faster on their feet than others and can adapt faster -- but that just means people are "faster" not "skilled".
Interesting, allow me ask you this question. Is driving a car a skill? Is flying an airplane a skill? Is the ability to use firearm a skill? (i.e. point and shot, and knows where to hit). If you qualify any of the above as skill, then unfortunately, computer games takes "skill" to play. Because like you said, it all comes down to "learning the mechanic, and learning what to press". Even music (I am a musician, although not trained in the traditional sense<I never took music theory and other class related to that>. I plays drum set and bass guitar) is pretty much the same at the learning part. The only difference in music that after learning the "mechanic" (your instrument) and what to press (the notes/sound created by your instrument), you need to be able to create something out of it... that's a different skill.
Reflexes can be trained as skills, adapt to change can be viewed as a skill. Don't take these things for granted. Because these two are actually important "skill" in sports. So they are skill, just different than those who would define it. These two "skills" also will help out soldiers in war-time (you want to survive, you better know your weapon, be able to shoot faster, and adapt to the changes around you... )
Interesting, allow me ask you this question. Is driving a car a skill? Is flying an airplane a skill? Is the ability to use firearm a skill? (i.e. point and shot, and knows where to hit). If you qualify any of the above as skill, then unfortunately, computer games takes "skill" to play. Because like you said, it all comes down to "learning the mechanic, and learning what to press". Even music (I am a musician, although not trained in the traditional sense<I never took music theory and other class related to that>. I plays drum set and bass guitar) is pretty much the same at the learning part. The only difference in music that after learning the "mechanic" (your instrument) and what to press (the notes/sound created by your instrument), you need to be able to create something out of it... that's a different skill. Reflexes can be trained as skills, adapt to change can be viewed as a skill. Don't take these things for granted. Because these two are actually important "skill" in sports. So they are skill, just different than those who would define it. These two "skills" also will help out soldiers in war-time (you want to survive, you better know your weapon, be able to shoot faster, and adapt to the changes around you... )
The difference is that in an MMO, you are simply learning a class with a few abilities and learning to apply them in a relatively contained set of scenarios set apart from the real world. To me, a skill is something that exists in the real world. Driving and flying match that criterion.
So, for example, if there is a "skill" associated with PvPing in MMOs, the skill would be "typing". "Skilled PvPers" are really just skilled typists, at th end of the day. Reflexes, which also play a role, are not skills, they are attributes, like intelligence, strength, etc. You can train any of those up so that they are more effective ( I can become smarter by studying, stronger by lifting weights, etc.), but my IQ and my strength are not skills, they are "honed attributes". So if someone has good reflexes, one should not refer to them as "skilled" but rather as having "good reflexes". Those good reflexes may be applied to become a very good typist (if combined with fine muscle memory), and that can enable one to be particularly effective at computer games that use a typing keyboard. But none of that is "gaming skill", per se.
I'm a 20 something college student who's looking for an mmorpg to play, I've been around the block. I've played everything as old as EQ to everything as new as V:SOH. Just wondering if you fine folks could give me some pointers. I'm looking for a game that can hold my interest, can keep me entertained for the longeset possible period of time, and has a good learning curve. I've strayed away fro WoW before, but it looks like that may be where I have to end up, because everyone's there. Please note the only reasons I've strayed before have been kind of stupid (i.e. cartoony graphics, sometimes overly comical looking characters). Is there anything you folks can suggest to me. Thanks I appreciate it.
HI MagiKen,
I think maybe try a free trail. Go to Uldum Alliance server. PST me in-game and I'll hook you up. We have, what has been described as a very, very helpful and friendly guild. We use Ventrilo chat which makes the gaming experience much richer. Try it, MagiKen and see what you think. I use this name, in-game btw.
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
Comments
To the OP, I would suggest not trying WoW. It gets less rewarding as you continue playing and before you know it you will have lost many hours of your life to a rather pointless that will leave you feeling cheated.
I really want to demonstrate this to you in some honest way, but there is no way to really explain the feeling without you having gone through it yourself. Between the ruined lives, suicides, and whatnot, I think you can draw a picture for yourself of what this game does to people.
I hope things turn out well for you, and you make the right choice!
Actually I'm laughing at my desk after reading that one.
The Kaiaphas MMORPG is better, it has 20 million players (and all of them can't lie, either). Actually, it's exactly like WoW. So after you've finished WoW you can work on finishing Kaiaphas MMORPG - or at least hire some people to help finish it, it is RATHER dull and you might prefer to go do some office work while having others play the game for you. But for reasons Kaiaphas won't overtly say, it is AWESOME.
Actually, it's tylerthedruid but the forum truncates the end of my username for some reason.
Anyway... wow is all about gear and nothing else. I guess if you're into RP it could be a little more fun. Be prepared for kids that beg you all the damn time, ninja looters, and just corny people in general. Also be prepared to grind to lvl, get rep, honor points, arena points, and farm. PVP is fun and the fighting has a lot more action than other MMOs i've played. The only problem is it's unbalanced when it comes to skill and gear. IMO instances suck after the first few times you've run them. I get bored easy from the stupid AI... The mobs are not even a tiny bit smart, just strong.
If you do start playing, my advice to you is find the best guild you can join at 60 for whatever you want to do. Without that you're stuck with pick up groups for everything. I just stopped playing recently. TBC was real fun till I got to 70 and it was the same routine as 60 and it only took me about 2 weeks to gain 10 lvls. As of right now, nothing is out that seems interesting. I'm just gonna have to wait on spellborn, conan, or WAR. Fury looks like it might be fun for some quick PVP action. Hopefully one of these games does a good job.
The game is fun at levels 1-69. There's plenty to do. You will rush to 40 so you can ride your mount. After 40 things slow down and you start to feel the sting of boredom. You now rush to 58 to participate in the outlands, which is the best part of World of Warcraft ( if you plan on playing the game - BUY the expansion or miss out on everything ).
You'll spend the last part of your life there, doing quests like you have before - Go to point A talk to <insert name>, return to point B, talk to <insert name2> and kill 20 fel orc peons and collect their blood.
Once you get to 70, you will find yourself grinding. And I don't mean this lightly. When I say grinding, I mean *grinding*. You will have to grind for everything. From reputation, keys needed to participate in dungeons, cash for your flying epic mount, Motes to make your items, and materials to make consumables for raids.
You will spend 85% of your time at 70 grinding materials so you can compete in the end game.
the other 15% will be spent either 1.) looking for groups for places like Shadow labs, Black Morass, etc. Or raiding places like Karahzan to collect sub-par loot that is in a lot of ways worse than what you can get from other places.
Level 70 is completely different. Unlike 1-69, you will *need* a strong guild to participate in the game at this point. Without it you are running around grinding as you wait for a Pick up group to appear, or standing around Shattrath picking your nose, or watching TV as you spam the /trade channel for a group, or use the /who feature to ask people separately if they are interested in a group, all while waiting patiently for a group to ask you to join from the Looking for group tool, which is unreliable because a lot of people refuse to use it or just simply do not know how.
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PvP at lower levels is a twink fest ( twink is a character funded by higher level characters who spend money to give their lower level character insane equipment and enchants which makes them nay impossible to beat by the common player ).
You may find yourself being frustrated by the complaints, insults, and overall bad attitude by the players in your group, or you may not be finding yourself PvPing at all, because you realize that the game is completely messed up due to the population imbalances ( in some cases, alliance outnumber the horde 4 to 1!!!! )
Be careful if you join a PvP server. You will find yourself killed over and over while someone you have never met before who is 50 levels higher than you. Once he kills you he then camps your rotting corpse for hours until you frustratingly give up and log. If you are upset about this. Tough break, it *is* a PvP server, right? "L2p noob"; an all too common phrase on the forums if you were to complain about this.
Which is another thing. Never read the forums. They're full of nonsense and ignorance and simply thinking about reading them could cause you to go into a coma.
Posts like "etc is overpowered" and "Guys are gay if they play female characters" or "Blizzard is stupid and needs to nerf rogues" fill the boards.
If you want an easy game that literally requires no thought to it, but a few button presses. A game that has the easiest learning curve of any game I have ever played, then WoW is for you.
I don't know what the allure of WoW is, but once you start playing you just can't stop. Its a drug that consumes your soul. Deep down you wonder why you like the game, but no matter what you just can't stop playing. It's like smoking. You know deep down you're killing yourself, but try as you must, you can't stop.
Hope that helps some.
this may be the best post I have ever read on MMORPG. That's saying a lot. Also, you have summed up WoW's soul, or lack of one, in a few paragraphs, well done.
My point is that even things that "pass" for "skill" in MMOs really aren't "skill". Let's take EVE Online. I played EVE for 2+ years and know it well. Lots of EVE players like to post here about how EVE requires skill, but I have to say that this is bunk. What EVE requires is the patience to learn the game (i.e., time) and the more elaborate rock-paper-scissors scheme CCP has put in place for EVE, so that you know how to fit your ships for certain situations, the patience to go hunting for targets or, in a lot cases, wait around for targets to show up, and knowing what sequence of buttons to press in what order to lead to a succesful engagement (or knowing what to press to get away if you don't want to engage). None of that is really "skill". It's simply learning the mechanics of the rock-paper-scissors game (and admittedly EVE's is a bit more complex than others so you need to invest time to learn it) and then learning what to press when -- it's a matter of experience and learning the game (which takes time) rather than "skill". Yet EVE players walk around talking about how EVE requires skill, and it is complete bunk. It takes no skill, it simply takes knowledge of the game and the willingness to invest time into learning what is rather more complex than average iteration of the old rock-paper-scissors mechanic that lies behind every game.
Ganers give themselves airs, IMO, when they talk about "skills" and how "skilled" they are. Playing a musical instrument involves skill. Painting a painting involves skill. Playing a computer game does not -- it is simply a matter of learning the mechanic and learning what to press when. Sure some people have faster reflexes than others and can press the buttons faster or think faster on their feet than others and can adapt faster -- but that just means people are "faster" not "skilled".
My point is that even things that "pass" for "skill" in MMOs really aren't "skill". Let's take EVE Online. I played EVE for 2+ years and know it well. Lots of EVE players like to post here about how EVE requires skill, but I have to say that this is bunk. What EVE requires is the patience to learn the game (i.e., time) and the more elaborate rock-paper-scissors scheme CCP has put in place for EVE, so that you know how to fit your ships for certain situations, the patience to go hunting for targets or, in a lot cases, wait around for targets to show up, and knowing what sequence of buttons to press in what order to lead to a succesful engagement (or knowing what to press to get away if you don't want to engage). None of that is really "skill". It's simply learning the mechanics of the rock-paper-scissors game (and admittedly EVE's is a bit more complex than others so you need to invest time to learn it) and then learning what to press when -- it's a matter of experience and learning the game (which takes time) rather than "skill". Yet EVE players walk around talking about how EVE requires skill, and it is complete bunk. It takes no skill, it simply takes knowledge of the game and the willingness to invest time into learning what is rather more complex than average iteration of the old rock-paper-scissors mechanic that lies behind every game.
Ganers give themselves airs, IMO, when they talk about "skills" and how "skilled" they are. Playing a musical instrument involves skill. Painting a painting involves skill. Playing a computer game does not -- it is simply a matter of learning the mechanic and learning what to press when. Sure some people have faster reflexes than others and can press the buttons faster or think faster on their feet than others and can adapt faster -- but that just means people are "faster" not "skilled".
Pretty good. I like your argument alot. Playing an instrument requires innovation, as does chess (chess is my favorite analogy). Someone will come here an argue that music is the exact same sort of memorization without realizing what you're saying, and all I have to say is a pre-emptive 'fuck you'.
Alot of older strategy games (the news ones are flashy trash IMO) and even modern RTS games require thinking, creativity, and intelligence, despite not being over-complicated... which brings me to a big rant of mine. Complication does not necessarily make for novel gameplay! It's like giving each piece on the chessboard 10 moves and HP and saying that now the game requires skill. I don't think the people who first dreamed up DND would ever realize what perversions people would derive from their system. In WoW you have hundreds of meaningless skills (look at the poor warlocks, they have waaaay too many abilities to have a general direction in their class) rather than a defined set of powers that effect your choices in battle. When dueling another WoW player, it isn't innovation or trickery that you win by - it is crits and misses, or some proper combination of a smattering of spell/abilities much like a paint-fight between two children. Either that or one side of the fight is completely and one-sidedly more powerful. The rock-paper-scissors concept is fine and all, however - although in WoW there really isn't a rock/paper/scissors system.
Implementing the D&D system requires having more complex gameplay beyond simply combat. WoW decided to focus on combat (I suppose guessing that this is what most players want), so the classes are all combat classes. The idea of a D&D thief, whose main utility in a party involves detecting and disabling traps and picking locked doors, presupposes locked doors and traps. DDO tried to have that, and did that aspect reasonably well, but did so many other things wrong that it was kind of a mess of a game. But in all one of the most salient criticisms of WoW, in my view, is that it is overly focused on combat and doesn't have enough non-combat complexity in its encounters. It's why every class is a DPS class, in a sense (or rather has a DPS tree). It's done that way in part, I think, to allow people to solo the content -- whereas D&D's system doesn't really contemplate soloing, but rather having a party of people with different abilities. It's one of my main gripes with WoW's designers: the group content pretty much is like the solo content except ratcheted up harder in terms of (1) numbers of mobs, (2) mob DPS and (3) mob HP. There isn't any door that requires a rogue to open. There isn't any encounter that specifically requires a unique Druid skill, or a unique warlock skill, and so on. It's all tank/spank/heal, and that, at the end of the day, is pretty oversimplified. Now, it is MUCH much harder to make a game where the encounters require special skills from some classes ... but it's a much more interesting game.
How am I able to kill someone 1 on 1, with usually better gear then me, without potting, if this game requires no skill?
EDIT; WoW is critisized for having PvP that is completely gear dependant, and it is. It is often like twinks at all levels, there are moments when I get pissed off because someone in T3 is jumping around just messing with me, because they can do it due to my inferior gear.
WoW is a very, very easy game. It can be fun, and there is certainly a great deal of content to keep you occupied, but as other people have said the endgame leaves much to be desired. Until then, the game is wonderful. That said, I have recently quit WoW because the expansion did nothing to help the game, save to add more of the same kind of content. Outland is no more dangerous than anywhere else. But you have to go there to get better items, and to level up further (with any alacrity).
So, it could be a fun game, but if you want a serious challenge, or a comfortable RP atmosphere, don't bother. There are roleplayers, but most of them are very strange, and don't really do RP like you may find familliar if that is your bag from other games. Many players are young children, and if you RP with them in a way they don't like, they whine at you, and try to God-mod to a place they want to be. You won't find it difficult to solo anywhere except the instanced dungeons, and there you have to have a group of X people, and really, usually a guild to get anything done but waiting to look for a group.
Try the free trial, but keep in mind that a great deal of the problems arise at the level cap. It might be what you are looking for, but what I am doing is I went out and preordered LOTRO so I can try the open beta next week. That's probably a bias because I love those stories, and I am hoping beyong hope that it is a good game.
Remember to take what you read in my post, and others', with a grain of salt or two. They are all opinions, and as such may not reflect how you would feel about the game had you been playing as long as I have. It's all a matter of taste, but I wish you luck in finding that one game that really, really satisfies the hunger.
EDIT: I know I didn't touch on PvP, because I haven't played much of it, but from what I have heard, people talking about gear dependence hit the nail on the head.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
(1) you have learned your class and know how to use it against the other class you are fighting;
(2) you have memorized certain finger movements so that you can react faster
(3) you naturally have a quick reaction time.
None of those are "skill". Painting is a "skill" as is playing a musical instrument. Learning to play a character in a video game is something that can accentuate your hobby, but it isn't a "skill", and playing characters well does not require "skill" -- instead it requires learning the class (which is a time investment) and having quick fingers. I know people long for this to be called "skill", but in my opinion it's fruitless and distorting to refer to this as "skill" -- it's more like experience, knowledge and reaction time.
My point is that even things that "pass" for "skill" in MMOs really aren't "skill". Let's take EVE Online. I played EVE for 2+ years and know it well. Lots of EVE players like to post here about how EVE requires skill, but I have to say that this is bunk. What EVE requires is the patience to learn the game (i.e., time) and the more elaborate rock-paper-scissors scheme CCP has put in place for EVE, so that you know how to fit your ships for certain situations, the patience to go hunting for targets or, in a lot cases, wait around for targets to show up, and knowing what sequence of buttons to press in what order to lead to a succesful engagement (or knowing what to press to get away if you don't want to engage). None of that is really "skill". It's simply learning the mechanics of the rock-paper-scissors game (and admittedly EVE's is a bit more complex than others so you need to invest time to learn it) and then learning what to press when -- it's a matter of experience and learning the game (which takes time) rather than "skill". Yet EVE players walk around talking about how EVE requires skill, and it is complete bunk. It takes no skill, it simply takes knowledge of the game and the willingness to invest time into learning what is rather more complex than average iteration of the old rock-paper-scissors mechanic that lies behind every game.
Ganers give themselves airs, IMO, when they talk about "skills" and how "skilled" they are. Playing a musical instrument involves skill. Painting a painting involves skill. Playing a computer game does not -- it is simply a matter of learning the mechanic and learning what to press when. Sure some people have faster reflexes than others and can press the buttons faster or think faster on their feet than others and can adapt faster -- but that just means people are "faster" not "skilled".
Interesting, allow me ask you this question. Is driving a car a skill? Is flying an airplane a skill? Is the ability to use firearm a skill? (i.e. point and shot, and knows where to hit). If you qualify any of the above as skill, then unfortunately, computer games takes "skill" to play. Because like you said, it all comes down to "learning the mechanic, and learning what to press". Even music (I am a musician, although not trained in the traditional sense<I never took music theory and other class related to that>. I plays drum set and bass guitar) is pretty much the same at the learning part. The only difference in music that after learning the "mechanic" (your instrument) and what to press (the notes/sound created by your instrument), you need to be able to create something out of it... that's a different skill.
Reflexes can be trained as skills, adapt to change can be viewed as a skill. Don't take these things for granted. Because these two are actually important "skill" in sports. So they are skill, just different than those who would define it. These two "skills" also will help out soldiers in war-time (you want to survive, you better know your weapon, be able to shoot faster, and adapt to the changes around you... )
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
So, for example, if there is a "skill" associated with PvPing in MMOs, the skill would be "typing". "Skilled PvPers" are really just skilled typists, at th end of the day. Reflexes, which also play a role, are not skills, they are attributes, like intelligence, strength, etc. You can train any of those up so that they are more effective ( I can become smarter by studying, stronger by lifting weights, etc.), but my IQ and my strength are not skills, they are "honed attributes". So if someone has good reflexes, one should not refer to them as "skilled" but rather as having "good reflexes". Those good reflexes may be applied to become a very good typist (if combined with fine muscle memory), and that can enable one to be particularly effective at computer games that use a typing keyboard. But none of that is "gaming skill", per se.
I think maybe try a free trail. Go to Uldum Alliance server. PST me in-game and I'll hook you up. We have, what has been described as a very, very helpful and friendly guild. We use Ventrilo chat which makes the gaming experience much richer. Try it, MagiKen and see what you think. I use this name, in-game btw.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon