More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!Are you another no-lifer? You work third shift and still raid, How? ALL raids are in the P.M. I doupt you work thats what these lifeless raiders are, JOBLESS!
Sorry I don't suck at games? Is that what I should be saying here? Seeing as how you apparently work at the department of redundancy department, let me try and clear something up for you in one fell swoop. Not all raids are done in the evening. In case you don't know, there are things called time zones. All my working third shift does is mean that I raid with primarily european people. Not like I have 2 days off a week either. Glad to see you also commented right after you just made this reply. Just because you're terrible at a game and can't raid doesn't mean all of us feel that way.
I think it's hilarious to see all the masochistic players cry about this change. It's interersting to see the backtracking Vanguard is making to rectify it's status as a hardcore game. The cost to develop these games is just too great to cater to such a small crowd and Vanguard was simply too uninviting for the casual players. I see this and the increased XP as almost necessary changes to increase the playability for casuals (even if soooooo many other parts of the game are crap). Without these necessary changes I see Vanguard dying a rapid death.
People need to realize that what once was is not always going to be. This game is still in it's infancy and there will be great change and most will probably be to increase popularity and playability to the more casual players [which FAR outnumber the "hardore" crowd] especially at this stage of the game.
Hey man i hear ya. All my friends talked about how cool raiding was. But when i finally got there i found it one of the most boring aspects of the game. Having to sign up ahead of time, limited room, waiting (sometimes hours) for everyone to show up, doing the same old tactics that everyone else uses to pull a single mob.
And im not gonna say WoW raiding is easy mode. It must take the first guilds to raid a dungeon countless tries. But once they find out the right tactic and post it on the internet everyone copies it and BAM! every guild can do it now.
Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by Tnice
Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by Tnice
Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by sebbonx
Originally posted by Samuraisword
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
Nearly all my friends play it. I have played their characters and my own to see if maybe end-game would make it worth it. It wasn't. I played warcraft for years, so you can stop your little childish assumptions on how I view the graphics. If you'll recall, I said nothing of the graphics. Insecure much?
Any game where a paladin can outheal a priest, and a mage can sit back all day and not really have to worry about overnuking is not a difficult game. The only ignorance here is on your part for believe WoW is difficult, have you ever played an actually difficult MMO before?
The real problem with these fundamental changes is that Brad originally marketed the game one way, to a target audience that was looking for hardcore, and is now alienating those very people. This is completely dishonest and fraudulent. It's a page out of SOE's playbook.
The real problem with these fundamental changes is that Brad originally marketed the game one way, to a target audience that was looking for hardcore, and is now alienating those very people. This is completely dishonest and fraudulent. It's a page out of SOE's playbook.
But which makes more sense, keeping 10 people happy or getting 100 more to play. If Vanguard is a testament to anything it's that the old ways are dead and catering to the masses far outweights the importance or catering to the small hardcore masochistic crowd. Call it whatever you want but pretty much every MMO has had fundamental changes that has "alienated" people, so not exactly fair to nail it on SOE alone. I remember when WoW changed it's PVP system, people freaked out, and got over it. Again, this game is in it's infancy, these fundamental changes will happen more often now than later. Matter of Fact.
It's not in my nature to defend Vanguard because it has a million other problems, but good for them for making the game more inviting.
Eh, this isn't that big of a change. The only difference is now you spawn with your gear. The xp is the same regardless. At least its the same since they put in the altars.
SWG is a factual example of how fundamental changes can ruin a game and decrease subscribers. Fundamental changes should never happen in a MMOG after release, that is what testing is for. MMOGs will have modest changes but most will not survive fundamental ones or will at least suffer losses because of them.
I am not sure what PvP changes you are referring to in WoW, but WoW is not known for having a real PvP system because of the instancing and lack of risk - loss vs reward - gain, so I suspect those changes were not perceived as fundamental by most. WoW is a casual gamer MMOG after all.
I submit that the changes to Vanguard are not more inviting to those who supported it and helped it receive notice during it's production and prerelease. Creating and marketing a game originally for the casual gamer is one thing, but Brad wasn't doing that with Vanguard prior to release as he noted he would be happy with 300k subscribers fulfilling the niche of hardcore gamers. The reason he has failed to accomplish this modest goal is because Vanguard was released incomplete and buggy. Hardcore gamers are just as intolerant to inferior product as anyone else.
ROFL. I love when sony gets their hands on a game. Pretty soon this will be just like Current EQ1, EQ2, and the rest of the sony drivel out there. Hillarious.
So the dumbing down begins..didnt take long did it??
Shards where a great idea in EQ2 i do miss them corpses where a great idea in VG it made you think about fights but i predict it'll be a matter of months if not weeks before they just introduce death debt.
Hey man i hear ya. All my friends talked about how cool raiding was. But when i finally got there i found it one of the most boring aspects of the game. Having to sign up ahead of time, limited room, waiting (sometimes hours) for everyone to show up, doing the same old tactics that everyone else uses to pull a single mob. And im not gonna say WoW raiding is easy mode. It must take the first guilds to raid a dungeon countless tries. But once they find out the right tactic and post it on the internet everyone copies it and BAM! every guild can do it now. Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by Tnice
Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by Tnice
Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by sebbonx
Originally posted by Samuraisword
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
Nearly all my friends play it. I have played their characters and my own to see if maybe end-game would make it worth it. It wasn't. I played warcraft for years, so you can stop your little childish assumptions on how I view the graphics. If you'll recall, I said nothing of the graphics. Insecure much?
Any game where a paladin can outheal a priest, and a mage can sit back all day and not really have to worry about overnuking is not a difficult game. The only ignorance here is on your part for believe WoW is difficult, have you ever played an actually difficult MMO before?
I played EQ1 from 2000 - 2004. Again your statement that a Paladin can outheal a priest invalidates any other statement you make. In addition I have played a Mage to 60 and a Mage in WoW plays the same as a Wizzy in EQ1. Therefore you make another incorrect statement.
Additionally I played a Sorcerer to 25 in Vanguard and it plays EXACTLY the same way with the exception that you don't have to stand still to cast.
Hey man i hear ya. All my friends talked about how cool raiding was. But when i finally got there i found it one of the most boring aspects of the game. Having to sign up ahead of time, limited room, waiting (sometimes hours) for everyone to show up, doing the same old tactics that everyone else uses to pull a single mob. And im not gonna say WoW raiding is easy mode. It must take the first guilds to raid a dungeon countless tries. But once they find out the right tactic and post it on the internet everyone copies it and BAM! every guild can do it now. Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by Tnice
Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by Tnice
Originally posted by foulu625
Originally posted by sebbonx
Originally posted by Samuraisword
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
Nearly all my friends play it. I have played their characters and my own to see if maybe end-game would make it worth it. It wasn't. I played warcraft for years, so you can stop your little childish assumptions on how I view the graphics. If you'll recall, I said nothing of the graphics. Insecure much?
Any game where a paladin can outheal a priest, and a mage can sit back all day and not really have to worry about overnuking is not a difficult game. The only ignorance here is on your part for believe WoW is difficult, have you ever played an actually difficult MMO before?
I played EQ1 from 2000 - 2004. Again your statement that a Paladin can outheal a priest invalidates any other statement you make. In addition I have played a Mage to 60 and a Mage in WoW plays the same as a Wizzy in EQ1. Therefore you make another incorrect statement.
Additionally I played a Sorcerer to 25 in Vanguard and it plays EXACTLY the same way with the exception that you don't have to stand still to cast.
Your statements about the wizards/mages playing the same makes me wonder what terrible tank you're playing with. If you can manage to get aggro in WoW, your tank is not doing his job at all. A properly geared paladin can indeed outheal a priest, I've seen it done and shook my head as I read the damage reports. How, one might ask, does a mage play the same as a wizard? You had to memorize a select few skills in EQ, and there were a ton to choose from. A mage can do 3 things; slow things down, do massive damage, do lots of spells for little mana.
You fail to mention counters or finishers in Vanguard. Sorcerers in that game do not play like WoW's mage. Not to mention that if you crit something, you're going to get aggro almost right away. That's where the tank's rescues come in.
I'm sorry, but it's plainly clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
I’m sure as many of you may be starting to notice there have been a few changes to the death mechanics with our move to Build 1799, at this point we have not published patch notes for them as they are experimental, however, we still very much so appreciate your feedback on them!
The current changes are:
- You will no longer leave a corpse when you die; instead you will drop an essence.
- You no longer leave items (Soulbound or not) on your essence.
- Essences will return a large amount of experience upon retrieval.
- Your essence will decay after 70 hours.
- Altars will still allow you to summon corpses from before the patch on 3/30/07 (Build 1799), however, you are unable to summon essences.
- The amount of experience lost when you die has been decreased.
These changes are part of our ongoing plan to improve your experience while playing vanguard without removing the risk involved. Please realize that these may be changed and modified as we continuously test them to ensure the best gameplay experience is achieved.
We welcome you to discuss your feedback, experiences, and concerns in this thread as we work together to make Vanguard even better!
See you in Telon,
- The Vanguard Team
I think this is clear fact, that Brad's vision was bullshit to begin with.
First, I fairly well certain this is an April fools prank.
Second, to those of you picking on the devs for death penalty..... I can see both sides of this argument. I am not opposed to very light death penalties because I've become used to them and they are the "norm" nowadays... which makes dealing with a harsh death penalty that much more irritating. HOWEVER!, do none of you remember the genuine fear you experienced when venturing into a new and dangerous place in EQ1? I remember being downright terrified that I would lose all my gear and never get it back, and that made sinister dungeons truly scary. I don't know that this could ever be recreated, and it certainly is not by Vanguards current very light death penalty, but I can fully understand the motivation of the devs to try to recapture those old feelings of fear.
now, I'll admit that Vanguards death penalty is very light right now and instills no fear in me whatsoever... but does that mean theyve dumbed it down enough.. or does it mean they should just give up and eliminate it all together? These questions are beyond me... but as the death penalty stands right now it isnt hurting casual players much, and it leaves some small bit of something for the hardcore type to hold onto to differentiate Vanguard from WoW clones...... though the true differentiation is in the non-combat/gear oriented content.
just my 2cp, enjoy
Ferinus Ravensong- Guildmaster of Tempest, Varking PvP server
Grymm MMO addict in recovery! EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH, Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Comments
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!Are you another no-lifer? You work third shift and still raid, How? ALL raids are in the P.M. I doupt you work thats what these lifeless raiders are, JOBLESS!
Sorry I don't suck at games? Is that what I should be saying here? Seeing as how you apparently work at the department of redundancy department, let me try and clear something up for you in one fell swoop. Not all raids are done in the evening. In case you don't know, there are things called time zones. All my working third shift does is mean that I raid with primarily european people. Not like I have 2 days off a week either.
I think it's hilarious to see all the masochistic players cry about this change. It's interersting to see the backtracking Vanguard is making to rectify it's status as a hardcore game. The cost to develop these games is just too great to cater to such a small crowd and Vanguard was simply too uninviting for the casual players. I see this and the increased XP as almost necessary changes to increase the playability for casuals (even if soooooo many other parts of the game are crap). Without these necessary changes I see Vanguard dying a rapid death.
People need to realize that what once was is not always going to be. This game is still in it's infancy and there will be great change and most will probably be to increase popularity and playability to the more casual players [which FAR outnumber the "hardore" crowd] especially at this stage of the game.
Hey man i hear ya. All my friends talked about how cool raiding was. But when i finally got there i found it one of the most boring aspects of the game. Having to sign up ahead of time, limited room, waiting (sometimes hours) for everyone to show up, doing the same old tactics that everyone else uses to pull a single mob.
And im not gonna say WoW raiding is easy mode. It must take the first guilds to raid a dungeon countless tries. But once they find out the right tactic and post it on the internet everyone copies it and BAM! every guild can do it now.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
Nearly all my friends play it. I have played their characters and my own to see if maybe end-game would make it worth it. It wasn't. I played warcraft for years, so you can stop your little childish assumptions on how I view the graphics. If you'll recall, I said nothing of the graphics. Insecure much?
Any game where a paladin can outheal a priest, and a mage can sit back all day and not really have to worry about overnuking is not a difficult game. The only ignorance here is on your part for believe WoW is difficult, have you ever played an actually difficult MMO before?
But which makes more sense, keeping 10 people happy or getting 100 more to play. If Vanguard is a testament to anything it's that the old ways are dead and catering to the masses far outweights the importance or catering to the small hardcore masochistic crowd. Call it whatever you want but pretty much every MMO has had fundamental changes that has "alienated" people, so not exactly fair to nail it on SOE alone. I remember when WoW changed it's PVP system, people freaked out, and got over it. Again, this game is in it's infancy, these fundamental changes will happen more often now than later. Matter of Fact.
It's not in my nature to defend Vanguard because it has a million other problems, but good for them for making the game more inviting.
Eh, this isn't that big of a change. The only difference is now you spawn with your gear. The xp is the same regardless. At least its the same since they put in the altars.
SWG is a factual example of how fundamental changes can ruin a game and decrease subscribers. Fundamental changes should never happen in a MMOG after release, that is what testing is for. MMOGs will have modest changes but most will not survive fundamental ones or will at least suffer losses because of them.
I am not sure what PvP changes you are referring to in WoW, but WoW is not known for having a real PvP system because of the instancing and lack of risk - loss vs reward - gain, so I suspect those changes were not perceived as fundamental by most. WoW is a casual gamer MMOG after all.
I submit that the changes to Vanguard are not more inviting to those who supported it and helped it receive notice during it's production and prerelease. Creating and marketing a game originally for the casual gamer is one thing, but Brad wasn't doing that with Vanguard prior to release as he noted he would be happy with 300k subscribers fulfilling the niche of hardcore gamers. The reason he has failed to accomplish this modest goal is because Vanguard was released incomplete and buggy. Hardcore gamers are just as intolerant to inferior product as anyone else.
So the dumbing down begins..didnt take long did it??
Shards where a great idea in EQ2 i do miss them corpses where a great idea in VG it made you think about fights but i predict it'll be a matter of months if not weeks before they just introduce death debt.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
Nearly all my friends play it. I have played their characters and my own to see if maybe end-game would make it worth it. It wasn't. I played warcraft for years, so you can stop your little childish assumptions on how I view the graphics. If you'll recall, I said nothing of the graphics. Insecure much?
Any game where a paladin can outheal a priest, and a mage can sit back all day and not really have to worry about overnuking is not a difficult game. The only ignorance here is on your part for believe WoW is difficult, have you ever played an actually difficult MMO before?
I played EQ1 from 2000 - 2004. Again your statement that a Paladin can outheal a priest invalidates any other statement you make. In addition I have played a Mage to 60 and a Mage in WoW plays the same as a Wizzy in EQ1. Therefore you make another incorrect statement.
Additionally I played a Sorcerer to 25 in Vanguard and it plays EXACTLY the same way with the exception that you don't have to stand still to cast.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
Nearly all my friends play it. I have played their characters and my own to see if maybe end-game would make it worth it. It wasn't. I played warcraft for years, so you can stop your little childish assumptions on how I view the graphics. If you'll recall, I said nothing of the graphics. Insecure much?
Any game where a paladin can outheal a priest, and a mage can sit back all day and not really have to worry about overnuking is not a difficult game. The only ignorance here is on your part for believe WoW is difficult, have you ever played an actually difficult MMO before?
I played EQ1 from 2000 - 2004. Again your statement that a Paladin can outheal a priest invalidates any other statement you make. In addition I have played a Mage to 60 and a Mage in WoW plays the same as a Wizzy in EQ1. Therefore you make another incorrect statement.
Additionally I played a Sorcerer to 25 in Vanguard and it plays EXACTLY the same way with the exception that you don't have to stand still to cast.
Your statements about the wizards/mages playing the same makes me wonder what terrible tank you're playing with. If you can manage to get aggro in WoW, your tank is not doing his job at all. A properly geared paladin can indeed outheal a priest, I've seen it done and shook my head as I read the damage reports. How, one might ask, does a mage play the same as a wizard? You had to memorize a select few skills in EQ, and there were a ton to choose from. A mage can do 3 things; slow things down, do massive damage, do lots of spells for little mana.
You fail to mention counters or finishers in Vanguard. Sorcerers in that game do not play like WoW's mage. Not to mention that if you crit something, you're going to get aggro almost right away. That's where the tank's rescues come in.
I'm sorry, but it's plainly clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
First, I fairly well certain this is an April fools prank.
Second, to those of you picking on the devs for death penalty..... I can see both sides of this argument. I am not opposed to very light death penalties because I've become used to them and they are the "norm" nowadays... which makes dealing with a harsh death penalty that much more irritating. HOWEVER!, do none of you remember the genuine fear you experienced when venturing into a new and dangerous place in EQ1? I remember being downright terrified that I would lose all my gear and never get it back, and that made sinister dungeons truly scary. I don't know that this could ever be recreated, and it certainly is not by Vanguards current very light death penalty, but I can fully understand the motivation of the devs to try to recapture those old feelings of fear.
now, I'll admit that Vanguards death penalty is very light right now and instills no fear in me whatsoever... but does that mean theyve dumbed it down enough.. or does it mean they should just give up and eliminate it all together? These questions are beyond me... but as the death penalty stands right now it isnt hurting casual players much, and it leaves some small bit of something for the hardcore type to hold onto to differentiate Vanguard from WoW clones...... though the true differentiation is in the non-combat/gear oriented content.
just my 2cp, enjoy
Ferinus Ravensong- Guildmaster of Tempest, Varking PvP server
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!