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plea for 4 man groups!
rungard
Member Posts: 1,035
Please mythic, buck the trend of large groups and go with the 4 man "unit" model. You can still link units together for things (8,12,16) but keep the numbers as small as possible to ensure everyone has a fun time in pvp. There are 4 classes per race, so it makes sense that a unit be composed of this number. With the 4 number a second group is easily formed, with 6 there will be problems and of course your aware of the ptoblems with 8, mainly ultra wipeouts due to overdps and /assist.
and for the love of all things chaotic.. eliminate /assist. It has no place in pvp. Its too easy to abuse and dumbs down the gameplay.
Comments
In persistant PvP, it doesn't really matter about group sizes, since anyone nearby can join in the fight. And in instanced PvP, the number of players per side is already set, so again group size doesn't matter all that much. Group size is only really a major factor when considering PvE instances, of which there will be few (or none) in WAR. Personally, for an RvR game, I'd want a max group size that is equal to however many character portraits can be conveniently placed on the screen. My vote is for 6. In addition to my above reason, it also makes room for extra players in the group, beyond the 4 main archetypes. In most MMOs, people tend to insist on having one of each, tank, dps, ranged, and healer. That makes groups rather cookie cutter, if the max size was only 4.
But I will agree on your plea for no /assist. In a PvE game, sure. But in a PvP oriented game, it makes the killing of other players a little too easy.
BTW, here's a thread all about group sizes.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
i'd rather have a group size of 8 or minimum 6 because it usually allows for more people that'd have a hard time getting a party to get in on one that already has all bases covered. It also lets you maybe take 2 people that fulfill the same critical function, and when one leaves youre still in shape and can continue fighting, while with only 1 you'd be stuck looking for a replacement.
regarding /assist.... for me it has no place in any game, be it PVP or PvE... it makes people dumber and less skilled. they dont even think and target for themselves anymore, and assist one guy. Even if he would be smarter than everyone else (which he isnt) one brain isnt ever gonna be better than multiple ones. Also you cant attack multiple targets at all, which might be critical if you need to keep some dude interrupted while you kill of the other. (Well technically you could do that if there were some people smart enough to target on their own, but those are far and few apart if people arent forced to develop the skills because they /assist all the time)
Are'el makes a few great points about group size. ((NB. About PvE instances in WAR. There are a few. Well at least one, if I recall it had something to do with The Great Unclean One, of Nurgle. But anywho)).
But even with those points in mind. To the OP, Dont you think its a little late in development to being a plea to change the group sizes?
Playing - --
Played - AO, CoH/CoV, DDO, Eve, Guildwars, LOTRO, WoW.
Waiting - For WAR, Fury.
I think they should really buck the trend, and do away with grouping altogether.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Just do it like WoW, where you have the option to display an HP bar over friendlies heads.
And I'd even settle for just doing away with the forced grouping you find in EQ2, and VG. And to a lesser extent, WoW. In EQ, and DAoC, you could technically solo pretty much any non boss, or nonraid content. Some classes could do it better than others, of course, more so in EQ than DAoC, but with smart playing, you could solo quite a bit of stuff. None of this artificial mob difficulty with the dots, and stars, and crap.
Especially since it's there supposedly to encourage grouping, and social interaction in games with auction brokers, and mailboxes, just so you *don't* have to deal with people directly.
Edit: Buffs are, if I remember, just short term things in WAR. No more Conc, or hour long str/con buffs, etc. Just make them AE, or have a single target, and an AE version which costs more mana/power/whatever. You could even take it a step further, and make the AE versions mana cost scale by how many people it effected.
Grouping is more of a hassle than it is fun.
In fact grouping that is entirely optional is more desirable, practical, and for ME ... fun.
Great thoughts by everyone.
They're called Single Player.
MMORPG = MULTI (Keyword) MASSIVE (another keyword) ONLINE (another keyword here, hint hint) ROLE PLAYING GAME.
If you are gonna use the excuse you prefer to advance solo and interact with players, thats just kinda being closed minded.
Leave grouping in, give the option to solo.
Make grouping better than soloing, after all a group working together should accomplish more than a singular person.
1 Person can't win a war.
I tend think the acronym actually stands for Massively Moronic, Oblivious Retards Playing Games. But I'm a convicted cynic, so what do I know. Howver, I'm pretty sure that Massively Multiplayer does not mean I should be forced to interact with any of those people. If you take the RPG portion to heart, and actually roleplay an actual character, rather than use it as an excuse for making creepy, poorly worded 'erotica', then I really have that much less reason to be forced to deal with a majority of the playerbase on the server, unless I'm playing a particularly friendly type character, which I don't, for the record. My last character was a one eyed, alcoholic ratongan monk with mange that had had his vocal cords cut, and spoke only in hand gestures. Not exactly conducive to dealing with people, particularly strangers.
When you say advance solo, and interact with players, I can only assume you're referring to purchasing from other players, or whatnot. That is incorrect. I prefer to remove 99% of the players from the equation entirely, unless they're at the business end of my sword/gun/pokin' stick. Mind you, I also didn't say I should win the war single handedly. But I damn well should be able to contribute without having sit around for 30 mins plus, outright begging for people to have pity on me should I not decide to play one of the "cool kid" classes.
Furthermore:
Playing with people outside of my guild is an exercise in frustration. There's only so much of the tank that never trained his taunt skill calling me a noob, or worse, because he didn't get healed, because the mobs were making a fine red paste of me. Or the DPS class that hasn't yet figured out why unloading with both barrels as the mob is being pulled is a BAD FRELLING IDEA. And then bitch when they die, not because they're a damned idiot, but because I'm a shitty healer.
You wanna learn to hate people, and grouping, particularly when it's forced on you by lame ass game mechanics like EQ2 or VG? Play a healer class in PUGs for a while.
You don't need to make grouping better than soloing. It should, as you say, be more efficient by default. If I can solo mob X in 2 minutes, and 13 seconds, with 4 minutes of downtime after the fight, then a group should, given equal gear and player skill, kill the same mob in 2 minutes and 13 seconds divided by however many people are in the group. So in the time I soloed one mob, the group of 5 would have killed 5 of them, thus getting 5 times more chances for loot, as well as potentially 5x the exp, depending on whether the xp is divided up, or distributed to everyone equally..
I'd also like to see a greater variety of dungeons. Or rather, an option like they have with the newer dungeons in WoW, where you can do it on normal, or heroic mode. Just add a solo mode, with lowered xp, cash, and loot to account for the easier nature of the encounters.
As for Coldmeat's post about grouping: trying to remove 'forced grouping' doesn't mean we need to remove grouping altogether. You're hitting the other extreme, mate. In a way, you would be forcing people to not group. The best option for most types of gamers would be the middle point. Something like what CoH has. You can pretty much solo all the way to lvl 50 if you want to. Missions scale with team numbers, and there's no problem for people to go on their own all the time. Sure, it's a slower process with a Controller (crowd control/buffs and debuffs) or some types of Defender (healers/buffers/debuffers) but it's still an option. If you wanna team, well, the game makes sure you have a challenge so you can have fun organizing the team and so on.
Grouping was never really a problem in daoc and that was almost 6 years ago.
I think larger groups are better, it adds more to tactics. I miss the old RPG"s where you had 5-6 person groups. I dispise these new generation of rpg's with 2 charachters and all of them can do 2-3 seperate roles.
Whatever happened to The tank type who had no magic but wore heavy armor and weapons. THe healer who couldnt deal damage but could buff and heal and take a few hits, the light tank who could deal damage but not take damage and had a few special abilities the caster who casted spells, didnt fight and couldnt buff or heal and the main charachter who could use very minor magic and fought with a longsword?
They're alive and well in Vanguard. Alive and well being a relative term.
I think people are getting tired of the same old archetypes. Pretty soon, I think we'll start seeing more games heading towards a classes, skill based system. Oh, they'll still have the option to chose a premade Warrior, Cleric, Mage, etc, template for those that are not comfortable being outside their... box. Just like UO, or AC.
Or at least that is my pet dream. Being forced into lockstep with whatever the developers idea of what a given class should be is boring. Why can't I have a Rogue type character that can toss off some illusion type spells? Or a healer than can chuck fireballs around, etc?
And, frankly, I see no reason why they shouldn't. Aside from the devs being lazy, and whining about how it's too hard to balance around a skill system. Which is BS for the simple fact that they can't seem to balance things with classes, so why not give the players the ability to truly customize their character.
Afraid you'll bork your template? Just add skill decay or locks a la UO. Sure your respec won't happen instamagically, but it will still happen.
you know i think your on to something. There is an aweful lot of merit into that thinking.
if they made all buffs and heals aoe type abilities you dont need a group at all.
I would like to se e a healers "pressense" be the main draw for the class, not the ability to cast heal X.
abilities like doing damage heals nearby freindlies, aoe pulsing healing effects, aoe sheilding effects and the such would totally eliminate the need for group based buffs, and groups at all.
it would go perfect with there groupless quest system. Think about it. players would seek out healers to roll with just because being in their presence is a measure of safety.
wow that woulod be totally awesome and totally innovative.
Trust me, most people here are tired of the same old archetypes, although most people in other places are probably not. I don't think it's laziness on the devs' side, or a lack of creativity; it's rather all the pressure they got from the prospect of success for their game, AKA money. Devs are slowly giving steps towards a change in the archetype concept, in order to test what the people stuck with their traditional ATs can safely accept. In any case, the new round of games this year is definitely giving more steps forward towards what we would like to play, and I like that
Not this reasoning again. People have been using the 'Massive Multiplayer' part of the acronym as a basis for this argument while ignoring the rest of it.
If it's so important to force people to group just to satisfy the terms 'Massive Mulitplayer' then why isn't every server in the world a strictly enforced RP servers? This is a MMORPG isn't it? Why aren't there hardcoded mechanics to force players to RP properly?
And there's one part of the acronym that was overlooked. In fact it's always ignored whenever the acronym is used in this argument.
The G is for 'Game'
A game is supposed to be fun and developers are finally starting to realize that forced grouping is only fun for people in large guilds who have a pool of people who can regularly group.
You can be part of an MMO community just by logging on and being part of the bustle in a city. By trading and selling things. By chatting on channels. Or just by watching people RP-ing or taking part in player-guided events. By being there, you are part of the online experience with everyone else.
And none of this requires anyone to group. Yet it is all part of the fun of the experience of a MMORPG. Some might say it's the most important part.
I agree that grouping and soloing can be equivalent options just as CoH attempts. But CoH still has forced grouping in other aspects of the game. There is still a lingering mentality that large guilds deserve better rewards. That might have worked back when large guilds were the only players of MMORPGs.
But smaller groups and individuals play these games as well. And developers are realizing that they make up a far larger number of people. Forced grouping is a dinosaur like tedious timesinks. It's time for MMORPGs to evolve and I think WAR is one of the next steps in that evolution.
I think WAR is focusing, not on large guilds, but on the entire server community. Public quests allow anyone, solo and guildie alike, to play together. I think the more we hear about the RvR mechancis we'll realize that WAR will be about giving players the option to play HOW THEY WANT. Not forced them to group if they don't want to.
The only problem I see with a Skill based system is the "flavor of the month" syndrome. But then, Classes are all pretty much the same, so it's not that big of a problem. Fury has a Skill based system where you unlock new skills and abilities by fighting, and you can create templates of the skills to upload before you go into battle. Like, maybe you'll have a template that lets you shoot fire attacks efficiently. Then when you return to home, you switch it out for a template that makes you a badass swordsman, or a healer, or a hybrid of some sort.
As for the definition of MMO, I've never believed that it meant "grouping all the time." Massively Multiplayer means you're playing in a persistant world with thousands of other players. It means social interaction, trade, events, or just seeing others out on the road. Grouping is an aspect of MMO, but not the only relevant one. I do think that these games should have some content that only groups can tackle, but I also don't think that the rewards groups can recieve should be exclusive. I think someone mentioned group size equals faster rewards. That makes sense. A group fights through some difficult content for about two hours, and you get a kickass breastplate. Then a soloist works through 8 hours of content, and gets an equally kickass breastplate. That seems fair to me. Those willing to take the time to group up should progress a little faster, but a soloist still has the ability of being competitive in the gameworld.
I'm not sure about removing direct buffs/heals altogether, though. If all healing was AoE auras, or proc'd off of certain skills, then that's really too hands-off. Sometimes you need to control the action, not just letting random chance handle it. And if there were no groups and the health bars were over the character's heads, the healer would have to swing the camera around so much they'd get motion sicknes.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Exactly.
SIX years ago. It is time to start thinking outside of the box.
That's an interesting request, rungard. I can see your theory here about groups of 4 being easier to form etc, and the 4 classes per race thing, but there are 12 classes per side here really. Also, with only 4 slots it would still take a while to make sure your group was balanced to the 4 class template - that could be quite a pain. With a 6 man group, you have those 2 extra wildcard slots to make up for any shortcoming that a 4 man template group might have. So I see a problem or two with your suggestion here, tbh.
I'm afraid that removing /assist won't counteract the problem of everyone in one group ganging up on a single individual of another group too - that's just the way it goes sometimes. It might buy the individual a few extra seconds maybe, while people click to target? Anyway, this shouldn't be much of a serious problem with collison detection anyway - there's only so many melee gank spaces around that healer, and the tank and his friends are likely to be in the way. CD is really good news for WAR.
And what are the things you screw up without having groups?
You cant have group heals (or any group beneficial ability), witch would be replaced by AE heals, though that would just encurage zergs, witch is bad.And one of the best things about groups is that you get a standard size on encounters in PvP, making battles more often even and more fun.
From what they have said about instance group sizes it is believed that the group size will be 6, witch is a good number. Not so large that group encounters get chaotic, nor too small to get unchallenging.
Why does everything have to be totally even, fair, and balanced?
Whatever happened to overcoming a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill?
Why do all classes have to be equally good at everything?
The more balanced, the more homogenized, the less fun things become, because it's just bland. There's something to be said for not having every aspect of the game in perfect harmony.
Why does everything have to be totally even, fair, and balanced?
Whatever happened to overcoming a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill?
Why do all classes have to be equally good at everything?
The more balanced, the more homogenized, the less fun things become, because it's just bland. There's something to be said for not having every aspect of the game in perfect harmony.
QFT+E
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs
Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW
Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
Why does everything have to be totally even, fair, and balanced?
Whatever happened to overcoming a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill?
Why do all classes have to be equally good at everything?
The more balanced, the more homogenized, the less fun things become, because it's just bland. There's something to be said for not having every aspect of the game in perfect harmony.
Because this is a PvPRvR game. Because competative play is where longlasting fun is (look at ANY sport). Everything wont be equal all the time, I didnt say that, but it makes it more equal. And imbalance goes both ways. Where is the fun if you just steamroll everyone. No challenge. What if you get steamrolled 10 times in a row? Fun? Sure I CAN also have fun washing the dishes, but Its certainly not the way I'd plan my weekends.
And if they deliberately make the classes imbalanced, the poor classes will not be played because all they do is being useless and unfun. So why not just make them equal in terms of power and utility.
I truly dont see why you cant "overcome a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill" with a system like that. People will still zerg and add and gank as much as they can.
And while is aiming to be balanced, it looks to be much less homogenized then most other games with its 24 unique classes at launch.
I must say that I didnt think anyone didnt want a balanced game though. Everything has a first I guess. /shrug