I think people have some distrust in EA because of their track record in MMOs. Look what happened to the MMOs that EA was involved in... Motor City Online (Where is it now?), Earth & Beyond (EA pulled the plug on it), Ultima X Online (Cancelled: supposed to be a sequel to Ultima Online and had lot of hope & anticipation), Sims Online, and etc.
I was involved deeply in Earth & Beyond and I was fairly disappointed with EA after they took control of the game away from Westwood. It was my first MMORPG I played, and shortly after EA takeover, I moved to Dark Age of Camelot.
But I still like their EA Sports games though. I really like their hockey games where I can check opposing team players into the boards and start a fist fight.
Khaunshar,
You made some very interesting points. It would be interesting to see how this game develops. I certainly hope that what you have described is nothing comparably bad like RF Online's TP grind. Now that grind was really bad. Or Lineage2 adena grind where it gets to an unbearable level that many people just resort to buying adena from farmers.
There are tons of quests... but so what... why should i do fex ex quests and Kill "x" number of "Y" mobs? Or wait, here is an original quest... Go collect 10 strips of leather... where do i get leather? from killing BoARS!
There are tons of quests... but so what... why should i do fex ex quests and Kill "x" number of "Y" mobs? Or wait, here is an original quest... Go collect 10 strips of leather... where do i get leather? from killing BoARS!
Bah...
Pretty looking game... VERY unfullfilling...
You spent too much time in the lowbie areas..... as you get deeper into the game, the quests get more involved...and challenging...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are tons of quests... but so what... why should i do fex ex quests and Kill "x" number of "Y" mobs? Or wait, here is an original quest... Go collect 10 strips of leather... where do i get leather? from killing BoARS!
You spent too much time in the lowbie areas..... as you get deeper into the game, the quests get more involved...and challenging...
I know that they get more involved, but they build upon the same themes as the original ones. I actually played for quite a while in beta... I guess i can say that now that OPEN beta is approaching.....
A few gems at higher levels, no matter how great they are doesn't make any diffenence.
Perhaps it is because i have just a general disdain for soulless MMORPG's... I'm sick of being a cookie cutter character... Vanguard = no customization, and Lotr = no customization... Traits are not versitle enough to warrent a true customization tag...
I will say, a variation of the FED EX quest i enjoyed was going to a well adn fetching water for someone... and making sure the bucket doesn't spill... that was amusing...
I am waiting for 3 things of LotR that go totally against the mantra of what is good in an MMO to sink in. I dont expect these to become obvious until a first wave of people hit 50 and see them themselves, but I ll list them regardless:
Grinding is bad, thats one of the big facts nowadays, isnt it ? Mindless, repetitive grinding is just for asian games, right ? Well ladies and gentlemen, by level 8 in LotR you get the first glimpse of what will eventually become a main part of the endgame grind: Traits. Its already in the game, all the info is there, and a few already noticed it... to further advance your character at the level cap, you need to level your best traits. And some of these require a LOT of grinding. Actually more than in any asian MMO I know.
Example: Guardian class, shield swipe is a reaction skill on a successful block, with also a decent cooldown. First trait step is 400 (doable if you use it constantly and pay attention by level 20ish), but if you combine the highest levels of the best traits, you are looking at well over 10k skill uses and kills of specific mobs just to level your traits. I like it. But you bet its gonna be one riot when suddenly groups are asking for specific trait levels as minimum.
Eh.. I played in beta a good bit and got my first couple of class traits at level 18. That was BEFORE the patch that lowered some of the numbers required to get it. It looks ridiculous that you need to do a sword bash 400 times, but you will do that in the course of normal levelling unless you don't try or something
The class traits are basically extra rewards for doing what you would be doing anyway.. And you choose the ones you want to use ultimately =P
Oh, you are correct its quite feasible for some class traits of some classes to be gained a bit before 20. I said "20ish" cause that will be the level at which a player who isnt concentrating on using his skills will most likely happen to have completed one. But either way, I am not concerned that its too hard to get the initial level of traits at all.
Unfortunately, cursed or blessed with experience in games that somehow put in comparable systems, unless they change it, at some point not too far in the future, people will look for further ways to distinguish themselves, and ohter places, than just level. Especially in a game where max level is no big achievement in itself (as LotR makes the way there very enjoyable and reasonably quick) people start looking at other differences.
In EQ, you had the number of AAs that suddenly made your char. "SK lvl 75 lfg, 300 AAs" "group lfm cleric /shaman 200+ AAs plz", in Guild Wars "group lfm lightbringer rank 3+ plz" or "echo nuker rank 6++ needed" and so on. You get the picture.... in order to have a measurement of progress beyond 50, since any given level 50 chars could differ wildly, some of the "must-have" traits have any potential to become an additional measurement of your chars "leetness".
Now, anyone with half a brain will figure out just having shield bashed 5000 more times, and now doing 10% more damage on a block (arbitrary numbers) isnt going to make or break a tank, but these games have a tendency towards ignorant PUGs, and I ve never seen an exception.
I think a huge part of that will be how big the netto difference between a lvl 50 Guardian in quested gear with only the traits he acquired while pursueing the storyline, and a fully decked out, trait-leveled one is. Right now thats hard to tell, and likely subject to change. I am merely pointing out that a very grindy means of character advancement exists beyond max level, and that such systems have been target of large complaints esp. from grind-hating players in the past.
I honestly don't think it will be as bad as you are predicting.
Especially since this game is very community/roleplaying-centric... The very fact that the game is "easy and enjoyable" to max your level is a very big way to keep people from being power gamers.
I agree with your strife, though. I hated when I would be looked down on for playing a shaman in WoW with hammer/shield rather than a big one hander to maximize my DPS. Same goes for talent-specc'ing.. I just think LOTRO's mechanics will keep the powergamer crowd from being able to take over any worthwhile grouping chances. At worst I think groups may say something along the lines of (Looking for Guardian, shield-bash trait preferred), but I don't think they will exclude someone who hasn't spammed for the diminishing returns.
Yeah if there is grinding its quest grinding. ( i heard people use that term )
To me though, quest grinding is not grinding.
Traits come pretty naturally also. Just by following the storyline and questerizing along the way traits come without any grind at all. The only time a grind would be necessary if you are looking for perfection. If you want to maximize all your traits for sure you will have to grind some out, more than likely on grey mobs. However, i think it is setup well. You can get pretty far and have a pretty "maxed out" character without much grind at all. Its only if you are looking for that top 5% that you will have to grind some.
Yeah if there is grinding its quest grinding. ( i heard people use that term )
To me though, quest grinding is not grinding.
Traits come pretty naturally also. Just by following the storyline and questerizing along the way traits come without any grind at all. The only time a grind would be necessary if you are looking for perfection. If you want to maximize all your traits for sure you will have to grind some out, more than likely on grey mobs. However, i think it is setup well. You can get pretty far and have a pretty "maxed out" character without much grind at all. Its only if you are looking for that top 5% that you will have to grind some.
-Allegria
You are probably right, quest grinding is a disguise for level grinding, but it fools a lot of people, which isn't a bad thing necessarily. The game is good for what it is, a level grind game that gives you a chance to get the good lewt with a lot of solo type quests and very little time sinks. Outside of the known LOTR POI's, it's not an immersive game, I think people move from quest to quest and just grind it out, looking for a nameless group when needed.
But it's not un-fun either in a mindless way, it will probably hold my attention for 3 billing cycles. I just don't see how there is really anything to do that's that much different after grinding up and doing a few instances, I guess you could make a new character and class but that seems kind of pointless really. My first game was SWG and I found that game to be really immersive, I guess I got spoiled if this is how MMORPG's really are.
Considering how popular wow is I doubt this game will replace it, but I am sure it will do very well.
Traits won't be a problem. They aren't really different enough to matter much. A Guardian is a meat shield. He might have traits that help him do a little more damage, but since after a certain level you pretty much need a group if you plan on doing the storyline, he's likely to have the extra defense traits too. In Wow at least a couple of classes can be wildly different based on their traits. I don't see that in LotRo.
Comments
I think people have some distrust in EA because of their track record in MMOs. Look what happened to the MMOs that EA was involved in... Motor City Online (Where is it now?), Earth & Beyond (EA pulled the plug on it), Ultima X Online (Cancelled: supposed to be a sequel to Ultima Online and had lot of hope & anticipation), Sims Online, and etc.
I was involved deeply in Earth & Beyond and I was fairly disappointed with EA after they took control of the game away from Westwood. It was my first MMORPG I played, and shortly after EA takeover, I moved to Dark Age of Camelot.
But I still like their EA Sports games though. I really like their hockey games where I can check opposing team players into the boards and start a fist fight.
Khaunshar,
You made some very interesting points. It would be interesting to see how this game develops. I certainly hope that what you have described is nothing comparably bad like RF Online's TP grind. Now that grind was really bad. Or Lineage2 adena grind where it gets to an unbearable level that many people just resort to buying adena from farmers.
It holds my attention less than shadowbane.
There are tons of quests... but so what... why should i do fex ex quests and Kill "x" number of "Y" mobs? Or wait, here is an original quest... Go collect 10 strips of leather... where do i get leather? from killing BoARS!
Bah...
Pretty looking game... VERY unfullfilling...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I know that they get more involved, but they build upon the same themes as the original ones. I actually played for quite a while in beta... I guess i can say that now that OPEN beta is approaching.....
A few gems at higher levels, no matter how great they are doesn't make any diffenence.
Perhaps it is because i have just a general disdain for soulless MMORPG's... I'm sick of being a cookie cutter character... Vanguard = no customization, and Lotr = no customization... Traits are not versitle enough to warrent a true customization tag...
I will say, a variation of the FED EX quest i enjoyed was going to a well adn fetching water for someone... and making sure the bucket doesn't spill... that was amusing...
The class traits are basically extra rewards for doing what you would be doing anyway.. And you choose the ones you want to use ultimately =P
--
psyconius Cthulhu
Gothika Studios
Unfortunately, cursed or blessed with experience in games that somehow put in comparable systems, unless they change it, at some point not too far in the future, people will look for further ways to distinguish themselves, and ohter places, than just level. Especially in a game where max level is no big achievement in itself (as LotR makes the way there very enjoyable and reasonably quick) people start looking at other differences.
In EQ, you had the number of AAs that suddenly made your char. "SK lvl 75 lfg, 300 AAs" "group lfm cleric /shaman 200+ AAs plz", in Guild Wars "group lfm lightbringer rank 3+ plz" or "echo nuker rank 6++ needed" and so on. You get the picture.... in order to have a measurement of progress beyond 50, since any given level 50 chars could differ wildly, some of the "must-have" traits have any potential to become an additional measurement of your chars "leetness".
Now, anyone with half a brain will figure out just having shield bashed 5000 more times, and now doing 10% more damage on a block (arbitrary numbers) isnt going to make or break a tank, but these games have a tendency towards ignorant PUGs, and I ve never seen an exception.
I think a huge part of that will be how big the netto difference between a lvl 50 Guardian in quested gear with only the traits he acquired while pursueing the storyline, and a fully decked out, trait-leveled one is. Right now thats hard to tell, and likely subject to change. I am merely pointing out that a very grindy means of character advancement exists beyond max level, and that such systems have been target of large complaints esp. from grind-hating players in the past.
Especially since this game is very community/roleplaying-centric... The very fact that the game is "easy and enjoyable" to max your level is a very big way to keep people from being power gamers.
I agree with your strife, though. I hated when I would be looked down on for playing a shaman in WoW with hammer/shield rather than a big one hander to maximize my DPS. Same goes for talent-specc'ing.. I just think LOTRO's mechanics will keep the powergamer crowd from being able to take over any worthwhile grouping chances. At worst I think groups may say something along the lines of (Looking for Guardian, shield-bash trait preferred), but I don't think they will exclude someone who hasn't spammed for the diminishing returns.
--
psyconius Cthulhu
Gothika Studios
Yeah if there is grinding its quest grinding. ( i heard people use that term )
To me though, quest grinding is not grinding.
Traits come pretty naturally also. Just by following the storyline and questerizing along the way traits come without any grind at all. The only time a grind would be necessary if you are looking for perfection. If you want to maximize all your traits for sure you will have to grind some out, more than likely on grey mobs. However, i think it is setup well. You can get pretty far and have a pretty "maxed out" character without much grind at all. Its only if you are looking for that top 5% that you will have to grind some.
-Allegria
You are probably right, quest grinding is a disguise for level grinding, but it fools a lot of people, which isn't a bad thing necessarily. The game is good for what it is, a level grind game that gives you a chance to get the good lewt with a lot of solo type quests and very little time sinks. Outside of the known LOTR POI's, it's not an immersive game, I think people move from quest to quest and just grind it out, looking for a nameless group when needed.
But it's not un-fun either in a mindless way, it will probably hold my attention for 3 billing cycles. I just don't see how there is really anything to do that's that much different after grinding up and doing a few instances, I guess you could make a new character and class but that seems kind of pointless really. My first game was SWG and I found that game to be really immersive, I guess I got spoiled if this is how MMORPG's really are.
Considering how popular wow is I doubt this game will replace it, but I am sure it will do very well.