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New WAR video up
Ceohai
Member Posts: 305
www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/podcast/files/pp_TypesofRvR_bitrate.html
more info about RvR, yay.
more info about RvR, yay.
Comments
when they asked us in daoc if we wanted instanced pvp, we thought about it for a long time. but ultimatle we all said no and voted it down.
World of warcraft has pleanty of complaints about lack of world pvp because the rewards for doing instanced pvp is better.
Guild wars is a great game but criticized for too much instancing.
I like very very little instanced pvp. The thing that made daoc greaat was giant wars and roaming around like a gang of street thugs looking for a fight. this is supposed to be the ultimate gang war, like bloods vs crypts. Adding all the instanceing and happy games for us to play is like installing a YMCA in south Los ANgeles and letting the bloods and crypts play basketball against eachother and tennis. Sure its good for the streets, sure its good for the crime rate. but we want violance and mayhem!
dont we?
If your going to have instanced pvp, make it worth less than world pvp. If your out in the world and can be gotten by anyone you should be rewarded more than someone locked away in a sealed instance. Thats where gang wars belong, on the street. Now to prevent people from abusing the zerg tactics and mobing eveyone 20vs1 you make it like daoc was. Split up points and award group bonuses.
This way novice players can stick together in a zerg and slowly gain xp/gold/gear and pvp rewards but that group out there working together and facing other groups 8v8 gets rewarded more. THe people who want to play the "safe" cuddly games can earn progress points as well, but just not as fast as the people in the streets.
Risk vs reward
Their various videos told only about victory Points to determine zone control. Did they ever say that xp/gold/gear would be better in instances? If they do just as much as put some better loot on the battlefield objectives then you'd already see a nice shift towards open world RVR.
Now I think that it's warranted that victory points in instances are higher, because from a realm perspective there is less risk in the open world. Every killed enemy generates victory points no matter if he's killed by a huge zerg or one single player.
From a realm perspective the instances are more risky because you have to split up and actually be better than your enemy and if you lose the instance you just gave your enemy more points towards zone control.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
~J. Krishnamurti
"It's no good coming to our game if you are trying to grow weed, It's no good coming to our game if you want to make pants. It's only worth coming to our game if you want to burn things to the ground."
-Paul Barnett, WAR is coming
It is infact possible, by the devs words, to level up from start to end exclusivly trough pvp.
That being said, I think Horusgirl hit it on the nail.
How much time do you have to loot your enemy when you are in a BG? not much eh? if you stop collecting flowers so to speak, the enemy is gonna crush you, so yeah. good victory points but bad gold/xp (you prolly have to kill different people to get more xp... repeatedly killing the same guy prolly will give diminished returns).
So it would seems you have a World PvP that encourage the individual (plus, those points you can conquer might open up goodies that are not available before) and an instance pvp that encourage the selfless group.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Horusgirl got it right, but I feel like adding my own post anyway.
Did instanced PvP kill world PvP in WoW? Yes it did. But why did it? Because all the rewards were in the Battlegrounds.BGs gave the most honor for raising your Rank. They offered faction rep rewards. What did you get from world PvP? Repair costs. There was no PvP content, no quests or goals to achieve. And players flock to content.
In WAR, the only advantage to doing an instance in Victory Points, which can also be gotten in the persistant world. I suspect that there will always be a battle to control the Battlefronts in the persistant world, constantly changing hands. And there are PvP quests to do in the persistant area, propably even constant Public Quests as well. All in all, players will split up and tackle all forms of PvP, because the game supports it.
Instancing killed world PvP in WoW because world PvP wasn't supported.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Watched the Vid, pretty smashing imo. The only query I have is that, how much more does the instanced PvP give compared to the 'world' PvP.
If instanced PvP gave much more than world, then it could be seen as pointless doing any world at all (very similar to Wow's Battlegrounds V World situation, the rewards for the Battlegrounds - and how much 'honour' you could get from it, made World PvP look like a joke.
Then again, having said that. There are much more World ways to gain control than their are instanced. Such as questing, capturing an objective, killing a random dude, etc.
Playing - --
Played - AO, CoH/CoV, DDO, Eve, Guildwars, LOTRO, WoW.
Waiting - For WAR, Fury.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
___________________________________
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I can understand the dislike for instanced pvp but we must keep in mind that world pvp, while incredibly wild, varied and unpredictable, is also subject to decidedly unbalanced exchanges. This can be incredibly fun... and incredibly boring or discouraging if you're looking for a challenge or are sick and tired of being ganked.
The 'pro-instancing' logic ties into an interview Paul Barnett gave where he mentioned that despite the racial diversity offered in your standard crpg or mmo the overwhelming majority of players choose to be humans or attractive pseudo-human looking races (i.e. Elves). WoW is a perfect example of this racial imbalance as the majority prefers to play Humans or Night Elves. Both races are 'familiar' and/or attractive, traits that are clearly considered desirable by the average gamer. Take into account the fact that both races are on the Alliance side and you can see why the Horde is dramatically outnumbered on every single server. It is painfully obvious that Blizzard attempted to redress this imbalance by choosing the attractive 'human like' Blood Elves as the new race for the Horde and the rather unattractive and alien looking Draenei for the Alliance.
Take a look at the stats...
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php
A whopping 37% of all players play either Humans or Night Elves. And guess which race is third? You guessed it... Blood Elves with 12%. It's not just that the BE are a new race either, in contrast the Draenei only comprise 8% of the total population. And yet despite the inclusion of the BE the Horde is still outnumbered by roughly 1.4 to 1 at any given moment on any given server. The racial imbalance is probably worse on older servers that are at maximum capacity.
Clearly Mythic is applying the population lessons learned in DaOC and WoW to WAR. We all know that in the Warhammer universe Greenskins are plentiful but there should be little doubt in anyone's mind that they will be one of the least popular factions in WAR. They may be fun as hell but they're ugly, smelly, crude and (in the case of Orks) rather stupid... not exactly a recipe for popular success. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Empire, the High Elves and the Dark Elves will be vying for the top population spot in WAR. So taking into account the anticipated racial imbalances in WAR please explain how non-instanced pvp can prevent the following from happening:
The Dwarves are losing dramatically to the Greenskins in the Tier 4 battlefields and are at risk of losing the final region leading up to their capital city. Dwarf players then spam help messages to their Order buddies in the hopes of turning the tide and within an hour or so scores of Empire and High Elf players flock to the Dwarven capital and proceed to literally roll back the now hopelessly outnumbered Greenskins. The sheer numbers of Order players make it nearly impossible for the Greenskins to cap a single flag and suddenly VPs are flowing into the Dwarf's tallies and have transformed a desperate last stand into a decisive victory. Over the course of the day, days or even weeks the Dwarves now find themselves enjoying a complete reversal of fortune and are rapidly approaching the Greenskin's capital. Sure, the Greenskins could ask their own Chaos & Dark Elf allies for assistance but it's a safe bet that not nearly as many would show up.
Now the anti-instance crowd might say "Hey, that's life!", "Que sera sera" or "Cry me a river" but the possibility that this could happen and happen often is exactly what Mythic wants to avoid. It is these kinds of lopsided situations that makes people quit playing games in fits of disgust. WAR's instanced scenarios, by nature of their design and the inclusion of AI controlled 'Dogs of War' npcs, helps to prevent the disparities in racial populations from having a dramatic effect on the aquisition of Victory Points. If other factions want to come to the aid of their allies they can either participate in the world battlefield areas for fewer VPs or queue up in the instanced scenarios to help gain some serious VPs. With instanced pvp the playing field is leveled and the challenge remains constant.
Non-instanced pvp is also much more likely to alienate the casual player or the hardcore player with precious little free time on his/her hands. Most gamers don't have several hours to spend fighting over numerous flag areas spread over a vast area. The back and forth associated with these battles can be quite dramatic and thrilling but few people have the time to spare for that kind of thing. Instanced pvp scenarios help to eliminate the long, drawn out conflicts and let people resolve such battles in say, less than an hour instead of an entire evening.
It's all about balance...
Now the only determining factor is too see how big a difference abilities and gear will have but at the moment from what I have seen this just makes the game better for me. Also Id like to point out that too many people are bitter from past experiences with a lot of instances and are instatly dismissing this without giving it some thought. All I can say is that this is a great idea and people shouldnt dismiss it off hand without seeing and thinking about how it plays out in the game.
WAR is going to be so much more mature than WoW and if anyone has played DAoC then you will all know the style and comunity it will bring to the game. also the main producer of WAR was actually the original producer for WoW but got sacked for trying to make the game more mature.
WoW wont change it will just keep expanding. TBC didnt bring anything new exept more hours of grinding
Ever expansion pack for DAoC brought something new to the game every time.
Thats why WAR is going to be The best MMO of 2007 Imo
These 'educational' pod-casts are great. It's very cool of Mythic to put in the effort to release these professional-looking explainations of their game mechanics.
Esp. when they know WAR Forums will pick them apart and fight over the bones
Bear in mind, although they have said that Scenarios will be the largest contriburtor, we don't know what this means in actual numbers. The game isn't even in beta yet and I'm sure this will be one of the areas that will receive lots of attention for balancing.
"The new age is upon us, yet the past refuses to rest in its shallow grave."
Stop comparing things to WoW, that game blows... yet I've played it a lot, shame on me... anyways considering this game will be from DAoC makers it will blow WoW out of the water guaranteed just as DAoC was always a better game than WoW.
Nothing left to do in WoW except log on every once in a while and do a few bg's, "wow" how genius is that.
WARHAMMER IS FOR RL LOOSERS WHO WANT TO WASTE THEIR LIVES JUST SO THEY CAN COME OUT OF IT AND SAY "Hey look how many nubs i killed from this pvp raid."
Looks fair. What do ya think?
Actually, if you look at the Race lineup, you will notice some similarities.
Check this out: we have Greenskins Vs Dwarves. 2 races that would not exactly win a beauty contest. (not to mention WoW again, but hell yeah,, dwarf are like the least popular alliance race)
Then? Empire Vs Chaos: BOTH HUMANS!! Yeah, the Chaos humans might get strange mutations, BUT LATER. at start they are stalwarthy scandinavian humans. Empire are germanic, pretty close. Both can be quite beautiful.
Dark elves Vs High Elves. they are the same race. They have just different outlook in live. different philosophy so to speak. Visual differences should be minimal in the physical department.
So even on the appereance side, the races look balanced.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Very good point. The races do seem to be matched based on what other MMORPGs have seen in terms of popularity vs. appearance.
And even if people do tend to lean to the side that looks like the 'Good Guys' I have to say I don't think I can recall a MMORPG where the 'Bad Guys' look so damn COOL!
People might like human knights and witch hunters but what about the Chaos Chosen? He's Darth Vader with spikes and a sword! And the Magus - they get to ride on a Disk
I think that the Games Workshop 'Cool Factor' may be a large help in balancing the realms lol