The problem with Battlegrounds is that it limits PvPers to a small zone to pvp (at least in WoW and City of Heroes). In a way I suppose that is good because it allows for pvpers to meet up fairly fast and have some action. But what is also desired is a sort of cause-and-effect PvP. For instance, perhaps allow casual players to turn their PvP flag off. Then if they see their town getting sacked, they have the option to engage the enemy players. This way you don't have ganking, griefing, etc. And of course have some large zones where your pvp flag is always enabled. WoW has done this on the PvE servers. On the PvP Servers they have done this up to level 25 or something (in your own faction lands your flag is disabled).
Ideally what would be even nicer than that 'consentual pvp system I listed above' is to have 'realms' that players can freely move inbetween (think Guild Wars 2). Certain realms will be open pvp anywhere and other realms will be for the 'carebears'. Perhaps even offer a little more incentive to visit the all PvP worlds. This way the pvpers are not limited to fighting in a small zone and we get the full pvp experience. This also allows the carebears to do their own thing in peace.
Neither of those systems are really 'logicial' or realistic too me though. Warhammer Online is probably on the right track with their consentual pvp systems it sort of makes the most sense too me I suppose.
EvE actually has the most logical system I've ever heard of. If you try to gank someone in protected space, a guard comes after you. That is believeable too me. They also have a large player driven FFA zone. I do not play EvE but from what I have heard it sounds like the Developers put a lot of thought into creating a very believeable world. Perhaps the OP should checkout that game
someone asked me why i keep calling the casual whiners and babies, its simple, if you want something you have to work for it, not look around what everyone have and say: "hey its not fair you guys worked for it and have it and i dont, God can u fix the rules?"
If you want to be a f1 driver, you cant just say: hey i drive to work everyday, i got a chance!
Casual players couldnt find 40 ppl to do a raid instance and none wanted them in the guilds, so blizzard should make 15 ppl raid.....
The games company are focusing too much on the casual players, once they get what they want they will leave for another game thats a fact.
Hardcore players if they get what they want, they will try to be the best at it forever. Many of you that didnt had the chance to play UO at the beggining dont know how great a game can be... you are all blinded with the "new pvp generation" games.
When a real pvp game launchs casual players will see that they can enjoy it. But hardcore players will still beat them.
I like how ppl dislike pvp in games, and in rl they go like: ohh iraq is level 10 and we are 70, lets beat them and loot their oil cause we also have better gear! And iraq still manages to kill some of the level 70...
Watch a medieval movie and see if there were pks or evil people... if it did start changing your mind about pvp, its not like the games have perma dead....
someone asked me why i keep calling the casual whiners and babies, its simple, if you want something you have to work for it, not look around what everyone have and say: "hey its not fair you guys worked for it and have it and i dont, God can u fix the rules?"
What you fail to realize- a PvPer can be HARDCORE pvp but casual PvE. I know I HATED raiding but I spent 8+ hrs pvping a day sometimes on the weekends etc. I put in just as much time as a PvE raider. However, the raiders still got the best gear. So what you are trying to tell me I was "lazy"? That's a load of crap I spent more time then the raiders but I got penalized because I did what I wanted in WoW. It got so bad my PvP guild quit WoW because it looked like even with the expansion, they would be forced to raid. Something us full blooded pvpers depise. We rather have the chance to loot our victims or earn equivalent gear via pvp for our time invested. Also, keep in mind we did organize 40+ man raids so how is what we do anything different from a HARDCORE carebear? It's NOT.
Ideally I like games like Guild Wars. Thats a REAL pvp game based on skill, not hrs put in. That's real PvP really.
The issue is not casual vs hardcore. It's being able to earn the best rewards doing what I think is fun vs tedium. I put in more time then a raider so I deserve the best rewards as well, period. A Crafter should also be able to make the best items and so on.
I do disagree with the OP to a certain extent. He needs to play mroe Guild Wars thats the type of game I want. No levels. Everyone can earn new skills and everyone is on a level playing field. Then we will see who has skill and who doesn't
Staff Writer Steve Wilson returns with his Casual Play column. This week, he looks at PvP for the casual player.
Player versus player combat isn't for everyone. Some casual players forego it altogether for a number of reasons. Some never attain the full range of skills to become effective at killing anything other than badly scripted monsters. Others find having to rely on guilds and secondary programs too onerous. And others embrace it wholeheartedly even with the knowledge that there are severe PvP drawbacks that apply only to the casual gamer.
In the older games PvP was dominated by gank squads. The worlds would generally have open PvP throughout their entire environment. Players could attack each other at any time and in any numbers. This typically led to gangs of thugs interested only in killing others, teaming up when needed to outnumber smaller groups. Guilds formed to fight these gankers and the arms race was on to see who could field a bigger group at any given moment. Players without guilds were often fodder that represented about as much resistance as a speed bump. In this environment the casual player suffers greatly. They often lacked the time required to immerse themselves in a guild capable of fielding enough members in order to win a race out-mobbing other players. Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly.
Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumps'. I bet he played UO for 2 weeks, got owned, cried because of it and went to Evercrap. Here's a thought: If you're too busy to L2P the game, then maybe the game isn't for you?
Let the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards
Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.
Staff Writer Steve Wilson returns with his Casual Play column. This week, he looks at PvP for the casual player.
Player versus player combat isn't for everyone. Some casual players forego it altogether for a number of reasons. Some never attain the full range of skills to become effective at killing anything other than badly scripted monsters. Others find having to rely on guilds and secondary programs too onerous. And others embrace it wholeheartedly even with the knowledge that there are severe PvP drawbacks that apply only to the casual gamer. In the older games PvP was dominated by gank squads. The worlds would generally have open PvP throughout their entire environment. Players could attack each other at any time and in any numbers. This typically led to gangs of thugs interested only in killing others, teaming up when needed to outnumber smaller groups. Guilds formed to fight these gankers and the arms race was on to see who could field a bigger group at any given moment. Players without guilds were often fodder that represented about as much resistance as a speed bump. In this environment the casual player suffers greatly. They often lacked the time required to immerse themselves in a guild capable of fielding enough members in order to win a race out-mobbing other players. Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly.
Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumps'. I bet he played UO for 2 weeks, got owned, cried because of it and went to Evercrap. Here's a thought: If you're too busy to L2P the game, then maybe the game isn't for you?
Let the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards
Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.
Here is another great example of the attitude that prevails in the "Hardcore" pvp world. Whats the matter Busdriver can't compete at work? or do you get pushed around by the popular kids at school?
"Casuals" as they are called only want a fair and enjoyable GAME experience. The Supposed "Hardcore" want the ability to show off their uber leet weapons and armor by greifing the Casuals. They always get scared that their EPeen will shrivel up and fall off anytime someone suggests that they only PVP against other "Hardcore" players. See the problem with that is the "Hardcore" do not want competition. They want to crush weaker enemies to make themselves feel good.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
While I would be categorized a casual player, I do participate in PvP - even though I don't care for it outside of a battleground or arena. It's not because I don't like competition. I like it well enough to keep coming back for more even when the odds are against me. Where I do not understand PvP is on open PvP servers/games where gangs and/or top-level players get their kicks off killing others who present absolutely no challenge.
Why is stopping someone else from playing considered fun? I don't get it. Played sports at all? Stopping someone else from playing gets you thrown out of the game (hockey excepted - ). It's unsportsmanlike. When your level 60 "toon" runs up on a level 20 - 50 character and starts hacking away with abandon, it's murder (albeit virtual) without remorse. If you wanna play Anakin Skywalker and go after defenseless padawans, go do it in your own home and save the rest of us some trouble later on.
Phew. Anyhow, I liken myself to a mad scientist. In MMOGs, I have my own little lab where I try different strategies to learn the ins and outs of the game. For example, in WoW over the span of the last eight months, I have leveled roughly 40 characters up between the levels of 9 and 40, with around 30 of those falling between 25 and 40. Each character has a different tradeskill and talent point loadout. There are no two characters of the same race who are also the same class. That's how I like to play. I like to learn about my enemy by becoming my enemy. It makes me a better PvPer. However, in WoW's brand of PvP, level > gear > skill.
So what now? Welp, I'll keep plugging away at WoW and wait for an MMOG that fits me better. And if you meet me on the battlefield, you can expect an evenly matched game. Just know that I know your tricks.
Staff Writer Steve Wilson returns with his Casual Play column. This week, he looks at PvP for the casual player.
Player versus player combat isn't for everyone. Some casual players forego it altogether for a number of reasons. Some never attain the full range of skills to become effective at killing anything other than badly scripted monsters. Others find having to rely on guilds and secondary programs too onerous. And others embrace it wholeheartedly even with the knowledge that there are severe PvP drawbacks that apply only to the casual gamer. In the older games PvP was dominated by gank squads. The worlds would generally have open PvP throughout their entire environment. Players could attack each other at any time and in any numbers. This typically led to gangs of thugs interested only in killing others, teaming up when needed to outnumber smaller groups. Guilds formed to fight these gankers and the arms race was on to see who could field a bigger group at any given moment. Players without guilds were often fodder that represented about as much resistance as a speed bump. In this environment the casual player suffers greatly. They often lacked the time required to immerse themselves in a guild capable of fielding enough members in order to win a race out-mobbing other players. Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly.
Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumps'. I bet he played UO for 2 weeks, got owned, cried because of it and went to Evercrap. Here's a thought: If you're too busy to L2P the game, then maybe the game isn't for you?
Let the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards
Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.
Here is another great example of the attitude that prevails in the "Hardcore" pvp world. Whats the matter Busdriver can't compete at work? or do you get pushed around by the popular kids at school?
"Casuals" as they are called only want a fair and enjoyable GAME experience. The Supposed "Hardcore" want the ability to show off their uber leet weapons and armor by greifing the Casuals. They always get scared that their EPeen will shrivel up and fall off anytime someone suggests that they only PVP against other "Hardcore" players. See the problem with that is the "Hardcore" do not want competition. They want to crush weaker enemies to make themselves feel good. Strike and miss. I'm super-casual MMOer. The difference between me and Stevie is I tend to stay away from things I can't find time to do properly. Another difference is, I try to avoid subjects I know nothing about. Unlike Stevie.
The rest of your post just show how utterly stupid a human can be if he really tries to.
Staff Writer Steve Wilson returns with his Casual Play column. This week, he looks at PvP for the casual player.
Player versus player combat isn't for everyone. Some casual players forego it altogether for a number of reasons. Some never attain the full range of skills to become effective at killing anything other than badly scripted monsters. Others find having to rely on guilds and secondary programs too onerous. And others embrace it wholeheartedly even with the knowledge that there are severe PvP drawbacks that apply only to the casual gamer. In the older games PvP was dominated by gank squads. The worlds would generally have open PvP throughout their entire environment. Players could attack each other at any time and in any numbers. This typically led to gangs of thugs interested only in killing others, teaming up when needed to outnumber smaller groups. Guilds formed to fight these gankers and the arms race was on to see who could field a bigger group at any given moment. Players without guilds were often fodder that represented about as much resistance as a speed bump. In this environment the casual player suffers greatly. They often lacked the time required to immerse themselves in a guild capable of fielding enough members in order to win a race out-mobbing other players. Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly.
Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumps'. I bet he played UO for 2 weeks, got owned, cried because of it and went to Evercrap. Here's a thought: If you're too busy to L2P the game, then maybe the game isn't for you?
Let the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards
Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.
Here is another great example of the attitude that prevails in the "Hardcore" pvp world. Whats the matter Busdriver can't compete at work? or do you get pushed around by the popular kids at school?
"Casuals" as they are called only want a fair and enjoyable GAME experience. The Supposed "Hardcore" want the ability to show off their uber leet weapons and armor by greifing the Casuals. They always get scared that their EPeen will shrivel up and fall off anytime someone suggests that they only PVP against other "Hardcore" players. See the problem with that is the "Hardcore" do not want competition. They want to crush weaker enemies to make themselves feel good.Might be wrong but wasn't "busdriver" being sarcastic?
Cabe2323 - And I suppose you've never once taken advantage of someone "inferior" to yourself, real life or otherwise? Shame on you for stereotyping the Hardcore gamer. Perhaps some of your post holds true to the newer generation of self-proclaimed "hardcore" gamers, but the older-schooled Hardcores were, and mostly still are, seekers of fun, and fun means a good challenge. If we could travel back in time to 1999-2002, then you could see what Hardcore really is. Seeing as how we can't really do that though, let's take a look at Guild Wars. The game has a pretty equal playing field, and the Hardcore are those who can strategize, react, and plan ahead. When I played, I was always looking for tougher battles. I disliked matches where the opposing team was handicapped, and I found that throwing together a rag-tag group was just as much fun as a well-formed team, and provided for a much harder challenge when it came to formulating and progressing through matches. I was a bit of a Hardcore player there, and I fought along side the casuals, and most times our battles were against a well-formed group of Hardcores, and we often did just as well as they. Cabe, you like to show off your fancy forum bashing abilities, don't you? Unfortunately for you, you are the equivalent of a child with a Q-Tip. Does your bashing make you feel good? I sure hope so, because all it really does is simply entice your target, rather than crushing them with fact. By the way, how's your EPeen feeling? Does it shrivel when others prove you wrong? Does it shrivel when others are better than you?
undiesusa - I agree, those games were really great PVP games. Not so much anymore though. And yeah, I loved the fact that I got penalized for my rampant killing in UO, or could track down and kill a thief who looted my kill in Shadowbane. It was great fun playing those games, and I remember waking up and wanting to spend my day in front of my computer. I felt compelled to become a part of the community. But with WoW, the so called all-mighty game of games, I find myself wanting to go out and do better things, like watching paint dry.
What i mostly get out of the topic is the lack of support from casuals on battlegrounds which for me has nothing to do with them being casual or not, it has to do if they are social or not, regardless how casual or hardcore someone is when entering a battleground all it takes is communication with your team members, cause in the case of the battlegrounds in WOW you become a team wether you like it or not, so what any social person would do is act like a team and communicate, yes that is a problem if you are not guilded or with a tight group you know, but this has nothing to do with a person being casual or hardcore, it's about being social.
I think the social aspect is a good point, but in another context. Hardcore players with longtime relations with other hardcores are going to have an edge. They know each other, they know to a degree how their mates are going to react. Joining a pick up group doesn’t give a player any insight as to whether the other players put on their team will actually know how to tank or nuke. In two groups of absolutely equal skills, gear, and classes the win will definitely go to the team that has played together more. A pick-up group will always lose to a dedicated team unless the pre-made is especially bad (or the pick-up group has a strong showing of incredibly twinked hardcores).
That doesn’t mean casuals are less social. It does however mean they have less time to be social in game. And that they have less time playing with a dedicated practiced group.
But that really wasn’t a complaint that was brought up. As other systems of stratification have evened out the playing field so that casuals can have a good time in PvP arenas, gear is still a decidedly unbalancing issue.
Steve Wilson Staff Writer www.mmorpg.com
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
are you serious? QQ more, casual players want to have the best without spending time and skill to get it?
So make a game that everyone is maxed skill, gear and see if it happens
gl
zomgwtfbbq did the masterer just do the ownerer's dance for ten minutes on your corpse before you posted?
what in the WORLD are you typing about?
he brought up some valid points. which i'll paraphrase -- any noob can grind for 10-14 hours a day, get max level, max gear and still be a total, complete, NOOB -- no skills at all required to get max stuff in these candyland-type games where all you do is get in a big guild, cast an occasional spell on the raid, and just attend all the raids.
skill?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. the only skill required there is a butt that can stay seated for 16 hours straight.
character skill, i.e. levels, does not mean the person is NOT a total nooblet. again, any noob can grind for countless hours, or get in a decent-to-large-sized guild and get lots of levels and lots of loot. nothing involving player skill here, at all, in the slightest.
so, again, what in the world are you zomgwtfing my bbq for?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Your mostly right. This is the prevailing view of the Hard Core player on why PVP is not flourishing and/or being restricted to battle zones. In truth, large gaming companies had to end TEFs because of the East Asian Regulations on PVP. In essance, the reg states PVP must be chosen and not forced. The choice has to be clear so NO TEF. Why do companies bow to this reg? Look at the numbers. WOW has 8 mil subs, with 2-3 mil in the U.S.. The other 5-6 mil are in Asia. The gaming companies cant afford to alienate those markest as they pay the most. Why did these regs happen? Some Hard Core players could not handle thier toon being killed and took Real World action against their in game attacker. Real World Deaths accured. The East Asians are reeeally into MMO's. If you track back to when these regs took effect, you will find many games changed thier TEF systems to comply at that time.
which just goes to show that time spent in a game does NOT equal skill or "ownage" ability.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I find it funny people say casual types just want it easy, when that is the very thing some hardcore players want. Grinding out the best eq shouldn't make you the best prp'er. PrP should be based on skill and on tatics. It seems to me there are at least two types of prps. Those that want the win no matter what, hacks, cheats, best eq, many against few, whatever it takes. This type shouldn't be encouraged. The other enjoys pitting themselves against another player. If it a good battle then winning or lossing isn't as important.
No player should whine when beaten by a better player. on equal terms. The other ways? All they do is drive casuals away. Casuals make up a large part of many games. Pushing them away doesn't aid anyone in the long run , so I think games should be made to allow casuals to enjoy themselves in prp.
the essential problem is that people are not defining things correctly.
hardcore normally is used to mean that someone spends A LOT of time playing the game.
casual means you don't play as much as the hardcore type.
neither of these CAN mean that a player has skills, or not, in that game.
someone's mom/grandma/greatgrandma can grind away to max level and gear in most of the games out right now.
that in no shape, form, or fashion means that granny gots game, i.e. can take anyone down in pvp EVER.
eve is an excellent example of a game where you can just keep gaining skill points (i.e. levels) without the player him/herself actually having any skill themselves. games like wow support the skill-less-player even more by having incredibly non-existent death penalties.
how does that support the skill-less-player MORE, you ask?
i do something incredibly stupid, say that i run into a room full of mobs +3 levels to me. i die, run back to my body in like a minute... what have i learned? that it only takes a minute to run back to my corpse and bumrush all those mobs a SECOND time.
in a game where you can lose things, or maybe like UO, where the mobs will loot items from your corpse.... you come back to your body, to find some of your gear missing, and that lich in the corner laughing at you as he attacks a second time. you learn to not bumrush the mobs and to think about what you're doing. so you LEARN, and you play better.
in wow, you don't really learn anything other than to hang out in a raid for 30-45 minutes, listen to what mob you're going to attack and how you HAVE to attack it, then fight for 3 minutes, then everyone rests and you guys talk another 30-45 minutes to learn what mob and how you'll attack it, etc, etc, etc
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
The people that do not like PvP in video games are the same type of people that never played sports in real life. They have no desire to compete. That is fine.
So how does that explain why I love online deathmatching in Quake, Unreal Tournament, Star Wars Battlegrounds, etc. ; but hate the lame pvp systems of WoW and EQ2? (I like GW btw).
Could it be that other types of games just DO pvp better than most MMOs these days?
But ya got me there: I don't like "real life sport competition." I like biking and hiking for fun, not to compete. I keep my competitive spirit for kicking the crap out of people in my many FPSs, GW, and Star Wars Battlegrounds.
I find it funny people say casual types just want it easy, when that is the very thing some hardcore players want. Grinding out the best eq shouldn't make you the best prp'er. PrP should be based on skill and on tatics. It seems to me there are at least two types of prps. Those that want the win no matter what, hacks, cheats, best eq, many against few, whatever it takes. This type shouldn't be encouraged. The other enjoys pitting themselves against another player. If it a good battle then winning or lossing isn't as important.
No player should whine when beaten by a better player. on equal terms. The other ways? All they do is drive casuals away. Casuals make up a large part of many games. Pushing them away doesn't aid anyone in the long run , so I think games should be made to allow casuals to enjoy themselves in prp.
the essential problem is that people are not defining things correctly.
hardcore normally is used to mean that someone spends A LOT of time playing the game.
casual means you don't play as much as the hardcore type.
neither of these CAN mean that a player has skills, or not, in that game.
someone's mom/grandma/greatgrandma can grind away to max level and gear in most of the games out right now.
that in no shape, form, or fashion means that granny gots game, i.e. can take anyone down in pvp EVER.
eve is an excellent example of a game where you can just keep gaining skill points (i.e. levels) without the player him/herself actually having any skill themselves. games like wow support the skill-less-player even more by having incredibly non-existent death penalties.
how does that support the skill-less-player MORE, you ask?
i do something incredibly stupid, say that i run into a room full of mobs +3 levels to me. i die, run back to my body in like a minute... what have i learned? that it only takes a minute to run back to my corpse and bumrush all those mobs a SECOND time.
in a game where you can lose things, or maybe like UO, where the mobs will loot items from your corpse.... you come back to your body, to find some of your gear missing, and that lich in the corner laughing at you as he attacks a second time. you learn to not bumrush the mobs and to think about what you're doing. so you LEARN, and you play better.
in wow, you don't really learn anything other than to hang out in a raid for 30-45 minutes, listen to what mob you're going to attack and how you HAVE to attack it, then fight for 3 minutes, then everyone rests and you guys talk another 30-45 minutes to learn what mob and how you'll attack it, etc, etc, etc
Originally posted by mugs omg, LOL are you serious? QQ more, casual players want to have the best without spending time and skill to get it? So make a game that everyone is maxed skill, gear and see if it happens gl
Exactly about Guild Wars. BTW strange article. Wroted about PvP and not mentioned Guild Wars.
While the write-up itself is somewhat accurate, all I can do is hope that Developer dont read stuff like that and dont agree on it. I said "somewhat", because most of it is missleading. It sounds like all good players are social losers and skilled players ruin the game for everyone else. According to the text, its the best to keep PvP as far away as possible from the gaming world and let player only enter PvP when they want to PvP and only against opponents with equal equipment, equal numbers, equal level and most important: equal skill. Equal skill because losing against a better player completely ruins your gaming experience.
At this point, my bullshit detector went off. "I dont do sports, its no fun... the others are better than I am, whenever I try!"
Steve Wilson should write about stuff he knows, this is sad.
are you serious? QQ more, casual players want to have the best without spending time and skill to get it?
So make a game that everyone is maxed skill, gear and see if it happens
gl
Exactly about Guild Wars.
BTW strange article. Wroted about PvP and not mentioned Guild Wars.
I couldn't agree more, the article was supposed to be about casual PvP and the funny thing is, that's exactly what you can find in Guild Wars, it's called "Random Arena Battles", and for those who don't know (like the guy who wrote the article) it's the entry-level form of PvP of Guild Wars, a system where you are grouped together with four random people hanging around the arena, facing a similar group of random people; it's casual, it's unpredictable and most of all, a lot of fun. Also, because the really skilled people have moved on to other forms of more organized stuff like Guild vs Guild and such, the playing field is pretty even, most are beginners or advanced beginners I think, not too many elite players hanging around.
I should add that I am one of those casual mostly PvE-players and i've found that the Random Arenas in Guild Wars is a great way to "jump in" and get a taste of what real PvP is all about: needless to say I was slaughtered the first 10 times or so when I entered these arenas but slowly, ever so slowly I'm starting to get the hang of it, knowing when to hang back and when to go for the attack, how to be an asset to the team rather than a complete disaster, basically learning a little bit more every time, starting to score a kill now and then and even being part of winning a battle here and there! So there is your casual PvP system right there, its been there for about 2 years since the release of GW in fact
Guild Wars is PVP like Counter-Strike is PVP. Ditto World of Warcraft. So far there's been three games that have really given PVP a fleshed out reason to exist: Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and most importantly Shadowbane. Who cares if the PVP is in battlegrounds or not when you don't have a reason to PVP. Humans may be more unpredictable but without a political schema in place the PVP will invariably become stale quite quickly.
The three games mentioned above, especially UO and SB, gave the world to the players to do with what they will. Shadowbane in particular gave about 80% of the world map to be buildable upon by human players. Not only did it add a reason to PVP it added a checks and balances against what many people refer to as 'gankers'. It instantly became a lot harder to gank without fear of serious reprecussion if you had a city with millions of gold and weeks of time invested into it.
PVP needs to be included in MMO's from the get-go, not as some battleground afterthought to appease the crowd. Hopefully whatever game SBG is cooking up now will be able to do match the incredible concepts that began in SB.
I think i have read about a million of these forums that continually argue the same topic, hardcore vs casual in a pvp envirnment. I have come to the conclusion that you cant have it all. PVP is the reason i play. It gives me a non AI, non linear feel with that constant adrenaline rush thinking that anytime you can be killed. I talk to my other geek friends and they completely feel otherwise. Do they play less then me? Are they less skilled then I? Not at all. The debate shouldnt be linked together. It should be hardcore vs casual or pvp vs pve. With gaming companies now spending in the 8+ digits to roll out games they try so hard to mesh these two worlds together so demographically they can make more money. We need more segregation in gaming so i can stop having people whine about "please dont gank me, i just want to play the game my way" crap and they can stop hearing me say "damn this game sucks ass, where is all the excitement". Sooner or later mmo gaming is going to be such a big hobby that maybe medium size companies or maybe large companies that want to diversify will start putting out games that fulfill the gaming experience of a group of people instead of forcing everyone out there to mesh into one super juggernaut game that walks that wire between what you want to do and what others want you to do. I am a huge shadowbane fan. I completely understand why people wouldnt want to play it, but i do. WOW completely bores me, but i understand (kinda) why people want to play it. So in conclusion, we probably will never see eye to eye on how to play a game, so why be forced into playing the same game?
I think i have read about a million of these forums that continually argue the same topic, hardcore vs casual in a pvp envirnment. I have come to the conclusion that you cant have it all. PVP is the reason i play. It gives me a non AI, non linear feel with that constant adrenaline rush thinking that anytime you can be killed. I talk to my other geek friends and they completely feel otherwise. Do they play less then me? Are they less skilled then I? Not at all. The debate shouldnt be linked together. It should be hardcore vs casual or pvp vs pve. With gaming companies now spending in the 8+ digits to roll out games they try so hard to mesh these two worlds together so demographically they can make more money. We need more segregation in gaming so i can stop having people whine about "please dont gank me, i just want to play the game my way" crap and they can stop hearing me say "damn this game sucks ass, where is all the excitement". Sooner or later mmo gaming is going to be such a big hobby that maybe medium size companies or maybe large companies that want to diversify will start putting out games that fulfill the gaming experience of a group of people instead of forcing everyone out there to mesh into one super juggernaut game that walks that wire between what you want to do and what others want you to do. I am a huge shadowbane fan. I completely understand why people wouldnt want to play it, but i do. WOW completely bores me, but i understand (kinda) why people want to play it. So in conclusion, we probably will never see eye to eye on how to play a game, so why be forced into playing the same game?
rabbit is right that you cant lump casual Vs hardcore and PVP vs PVE all in one topic.
From a player like myself that dosen't consider myself "hardcore" yet neither casual. I play WoW atm, just finished a 1 year tour of RF on-line, and was a die hard SWG fan till sony killed it with NGE... ok to the point.
Its not about being Hardcore. What is hard core... its a illusion. games like WoW and RF, SWG EQ 1&2 just are not 3 hour a day games. I seriously doubt there is a person or a large section of ppl that will pay $15/mo + buy in costs of 50$+ expansions to only play this small investment in cash to play a game 12 hours a month.
Thats not even including, Iam willing to say ALOT, maybe 60%-90% of the people that pay that money and are reading this web site, also spend money on high end Head sets, custom keyboards/mice/and other devices paid hosting for ventrilo or team speak. Often operating more then 1 computer with maps, tips, ventrilo, instant messaging devices, forums like this as well as the guild site and the parent game site all running at the same time. hundreds of $$$ invested now.
My point is really that if you are in a pay per month MMO, your all ready beyond the realm of any causual play status. Your all ready in a seperate catagory. You are a MMO player, you are not a xbox live, play station, one time fee of 50$ game that is set and unchanging.
You are a MMOer that expects a evolving changing growing game, you expect that your 50$ buy in, 30$ expasions (ussual more now) and 15$ a month WILL yield you rewards diversity, and content. YOU ARE NOT CASUAL just being in a mmo.
As a forum mod for one of the MMOs i mentioned. I can tell you this. As a player, We expect and demand the most of any other genre. there are no casual MMORPG players. The rest is only complaining WHEN they dont win, and will upgrade at somepoint. Pure and simple. This discussion is fictious and at a end now. When you Pay to play... you have all ready become hardcore.
That is my opinion anyway.
=^.^=
Miataka (+many sub variation of that) ~WoW (Kael'Thas, USA) MiaTaka ~ RF On-line (Fire Server) -Mia- takahashi ~SWG (Europe-chimaera) Miataki Valeinca ~EQ 2 (everfrost) MiaTaka Soyinka ~Second Life
are you serious? QQ more, casual players want to have the best without spending time and skill to get it?
So make a game that everyone is maxed skill, gear and see if it happens
gl
I agree wholeheartedly brother with making all the charcters equal in a general sense. The only game I can think of that tried this and was extremely popular was Planetside. The awsome thing about Planetside was a newbie had the possibility to kill a vet depending on player skill & equipment selection. Their downside which virtually killed the game was allowing BFR's (Big Freaking Robots) that only hardcore vets could acquire. It basically killed the game. It also lacked player freedom to form independant teams and do their own thing and self customization.
I haven't seen any other game build off of it yet. My ideal game would incorporate all the great aspects of previous games. I think a medieval based game that has Planetside's/Ultima Online's skill based system, Shadowbane's freedom to pvp, create, destroy, and capture towns/mines/resrouce points, and World of Warcraft's gameplay and graphics would shake and break the current molds out there today. I'm shocked at how much time has eslapsed since Planetside and game companies still don't offer any MMO's that target casual gamers. I think it's a gold mine waiting to be discovered.
Comments
PvP is more interesting than PvE; humans are more unpredicable.
Unless artificial intelligence of games improves greatly, most people will eventually become bored.
Long live Eve Online!
The problem with Battlegrounds is that it limits PvPers to a small zone to pvp (at least in WoW and City of Heroes). In a way I suppose that is good because it allows for pvpers to meet up fairly fast and have some action. But what is also desired is a sort of cause-and-effect PvP. For instance, perhaps allow casual players to turn their PvP flag off. Then if they see their town getting sacked, they have the option to engage the enemy players. This way you don't have ganking, griefing, etc. And of course have some large zones where your pvp flag is always enabled. WoW has done this on the PvE servers. On the PvP Servers they have done this up to level 25 or something (in your own faction lands your flag is disabled).
Ideally what would be even nicer than that 'consentual pvp system I listed above' is to have 'realms' that players can freely move inbetween (think Guild Wars 2). Certain realms will be open pvp anywhere and other realms will be for the 'carebears'. Perhaps even offer a little more incentive to visit the all PvP worlds. This way the pvpers are not limited to fighting in a small zone and we get the full pvp experience. This also allows the carebears to do their own thing in peace.
Neither of those systems are really 'logicial' or realistic too me though. Warhammer Online is probably on the right track with their consentual pvp systems it sort of makes the most sense too me I suppose.
EvE actually has the most logical system I've ever heard of. If you try to gank someone in protected space, a guard comes after you. That is believeable too me. They also have a large player driven FFA zone. I do not play EvE but from what I have heard it sounds like the Developers put a lot of thought into creating a very believeable world. Perhaps the OP should checkout that game
If you want to be a f1 driver, you cant just say: hey i drive to work everyday, i got a chance!
Casual players couldnt find 40 ppl to do a raid instance and none wanted them in the guilds, so blizzard should make 15 ppl raid.....
The games company are focusing too much on the casual players, once they get what they want they will leave for another game thats a fact.
Hardcore players if they get what they want, they will try to be the best at it forever. Many of you that didnt had the chance to play UO at the beggining dont know how great a game can be... you are all blinded with the "new pvp generation" games.
When a real pvp game launchs casual players will see that they can enjoy it. But hardcore players will still beat them.
I like how ppl dislike pvp in games, and in rl they go like: ohh iraq is level 10 and we are 70, lets beat them and loot their oil cause we also have better gear! And iraq still manages to kill some of the level 70...
Watch a medieval movie and see if there were pks or evil people... if it did start changing your mind about pvp, its not like the games have perma dead....
What you fail to realize- a PvPer can be HARDCORE pvp but casual PvE. I know I HATED raiding but I spent 8+ hrs pvping a day sometimes on the weekends etc. I put in just as much time as a PvE raider. However, the raiders still got the best gear. So what you are trying to tell me I was "lazy"? That's a load of crap I spent more time then the raiders but I got penalized because I did what I wanted in WoW. It got so bad my PvP guild quit WoW because it looked like even with the expansion, they would be forced to raid. Something us full blooded pvpers depise. We rather have the chance to loot our victims or earn equivalent gear via pvp for our time invested. Also, keep in mind we did organize 40+ man raids so how is what we do anything different from a HARDCORE carebear? It's NOT.
Ideally I like games like Guild Wars. Thats a REAL pvp game based on skill, not hrs put in. That's real PvP really.
The issue is not casual vs hardcore. It's being able to earn the best rewards doing what I think is fun vs tedium. I put in more time then a raider so I deserve the best rewards as well, period. A Crafter should also be able to make the best items and so on.
I do disagree with the OP to a certain extent. He needs to play mroe Guild Wars thats the type of game I want. No levels. Everyone can earn new skills and everyone is on a level playing field. Then we will see who has skill and who doesn't
Let the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards
Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.
Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumpsLet the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards
Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.
Here is another great example of the attitude that prevails in the "Hardcore" pvp world. Whats the matter Busdriver can't compete at work? or do you get pushed around by the popular kids at school?
"Casuals" as they are called only want a fair and enjoyable GAME experience. The Supposed "Hardcore" want the ability to show off their uber leet weapons and armor by greifing the Casuals. They always get scared that their EPeen will shrivel up and fall off anytime someone suggests that they only PVP against other "Hardcore" players. See the problem with that is the "Hardcore" do not want competition. They want to crush weaker enemies to make themselves feel good.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
While I would be categorized a casual player, I do participate in PvP - even though I don't care for it outside of a battleground or arena. It's not because I don't like competition. I like it well enough to keep coming back for more even when the odds are against me. Where I do not understand PvP is on open PvP servers/games where gangs and/or top-level players get their kicks off killing others who present absolutely no challenge.
Why is stopping someone else from playing considered fun? I don't get it. Played sports at all? Stopping someone else from playing gets you thrown out of the game (hockey excepted -
). It's unsportsmanlike. When your level 60 "toon" runs up on a level 20 - 50 character and starts hacking away with abandon, it's murder (albeit virtual) without remorse. If you wanna play Anakin Skywalker and go after defenseless padawans, go do it in your own home and save the rest of us some trouble later on.
Phew. Anyhow, I liken myself to a mad scientist. In MMOGs, I have my own little lab where I try different strategies to learn the ins and outs of the game. For example, in WoW over the span of the last eight months, I have leveled roughly 40 characters up between the levels of 9 and 40, with around 30 of those falling between 25 and 40. Each character has a different tradeskill and talent point loadout. There are no two characters of the same race who are also the same class. That's how I like to play. I like to learn about my enemy by becoming my enemy. It makes me a better PvPer. However, in WoW's brand of PvP, level > gear > skill.
So what now? Welp, I'll keep plugging away at WoW and wait for an MMOG that fits me better. And if you meet me on the battlefield, you can expect an evenly matched game. Just know that I know your tricks.
Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumpsLet the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards
Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.
Here is another great example of the attitude that prevails in the "Hardcore" pvp world. Whats the matter Busdriver can't compete at work? or do you get pushed around by the popular kids at school?
"Casuals" as they are called only want a fair and enjoyable GAME experience. The Supposed "Hardcore" want the ability to show off their uber leet weapons and armor by greifing the Casuals. They always get scared that their EPeen will shrivel up and fall off anytime someone suggests that they only PVP against other "Hardcore" players. See the problem with that is the "Hardcore" do not want competition. They want to crush weaker enemies to make themselves feel good.
The rest of your post just show how utterly stupid a human can be if he really tries to.
You just managed to tout WOW as the be all and end all so far of PVP games. WOW is not a pvp game, its a carebear fest.
PVP is Shadowbane, or UO, or DAOC, or AC. Its Darkfall or AOC, not warhammer. Without consequences for your actions pvp is meaningingless.
Thanks for touting as the great pvp game, a glorified gear grind. You guys really know your genre.
Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumpsLet the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards
Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.
Here is another great example of the attitude that prevails in the "Hardcore" pvp world. Whats the matter Busdriver can't compete at work? or do you get pushed around by the popular kids at school?
"Casuals" as they are called only want a fair and enjoyable GAME experience. The Supposed "Hardcore" want the ability to show off their uber leet weapons and armor by greifing the Casuals. They always get scared that their EPeen will shrivel up and fall off anytime someone suggests that they only PVP against other "Hardcore" players. See the problem with that is the "Hardcore" do not want competition. They want to crush weaker enemies to make themselves feel good.
Cabe2323 - And I suppose you've never once taken advantage of someone "inferior" to yourself, real life or otherwise? Shame on you for stereotyping the Hardcore gamer. Perhaps some of your post holds true to the newer generation of self-proclaimed "hardcore" gamers, but the older-schooled Hardcores were, and mostly still are, seekers of fun, and fun means a good challenge. If we could travel back in time to 1999-2002, then you could see what Hardcore really is. Seeing as how we can't really do that though, let's take a look at Guild Wars. The game has a pretty equal playing field, and the Hardcore are those who can strategize, react, and plan ahead. When I played, I was always looking for tougher battles. I disliked matches where the opposing team was handicapped, and I found that throwing together a rag-tag group was just as much fun as a well-formed team, and provided for a much harder challenge when it came to formulating and progressing through matches. I was a bit of a Hardcore player there, and I fought along side the casuals, and most times our battles were against a well-formed group of Hardcores, and we often did just as well as they. Cabe, you like to show off your fancy forum bashing abilities, don't you? Unfortunately for you, you are the equivalent of a child with a Q-Tip. Does your bashing make you feel good? I sure hope so, because all it really does is simply entice your target, rather than crushing them with fact. By the way, how's your EPeen feeling? Does it shrivel when others prove you wrong? Does it shrivel when others are better than you?
undiesusa - I agree, those games were really great PVP games. Not so much anymore though. And yeah, I loved the fact that I got penalized for my rampant killing in UO, or could track down and kill a thief who looted my kill in Shadowbane. It was great fun playing those games, and I remember waking up and wanting to spend my day in front of my computer. I felt compelled to become a part of the community. But with WoW, the so called all-mighty game of games, I find myself wanting to go out and do better things, like watching paint dry.
Steve Wilson
Staff Writer
www.mmorpg.com
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
zomgwtfbbq did the masterer just do the ownerer's dance for ten minutes on your corpse before you posted?
what in the WORLD are you typing about?
he brought up some valid points. which i'll paraphrase -- any noob can grind for 10-14 hours a day, get max level, max gear and still be a total, complete, NOOB -- no skills at all required to get max stuff in these candyland-type games where all you do is get in a big guild, cast an occasional spell on the raid, and just attend all the raids.
skill?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. the only skill required there is a butt that can stay seated for 16 hours straight.
character skill, i.e. levels, does not mean the person is NOT a total nooblet. again, any noob can grind for countless hours, or get in a decent-to-large-sized guild and get lots of levels and lots of loot. nothing involving player skill here, at all, in the slightest.
so, again, what in the world are you zomgwtfing my bbq for?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
which just goes to show that time spent in a game does NOT equal skill or "ownage" ability.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
the essential problem is that people are not defining things correctly.
hardcore normally is used to mean that someone spends A LOT of time playing the game.
casual means you don't play as much as the hardcore type.
neither of these CAN mean that a player has skills, or not, in that game.
someone's mom/grandma/greatgrandma can grind away to max level and gear in most of the games out right now.
that in no shape, form, or fashion means that granny gots game, i.e. can take anyone down in pvp EVER.
eve is an excellent example of a game where you can just keep gaining skill points (i.e. levels) without the player him/herself actually having any skill themselves. games like wow support the skill-less-player even more by having incredibly non-existent death penalties.
how does that support the skill-less-player MORE, you ask?
i do something incredibly stupid, say that i run into a room full of mobs +3 levels to me. i die, run back to my body in like a minute... what have i learned? that it only takes a minute to run back to my corpse and bumrush all those mobs a SECOND time.
in a game where you can lose things, or maybe like UO, where the mobs will loot items from your corpse.... you come back to your body, to find some of your gear missing, and that lich in the corner laughing at you as he attacks a second time. you learn to not bumrush the mobs and to think about what you're doing. so you LEARN, and you play better.
in wow, you don't really learn anything other than to hang out in a raid for 30-45 minutes, listen to what mob you're going to attack and how you HAVE to attack it, then fight for 3 minutes, then everyone rests and you guys talk another 30-45 minutes to learn what mob and how you'll attack it, etc, etc, etc
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
So how does that explain why I love online deathmatching in Quake, Unreal Tournament, Star Wars Battlegrounds, etc. ; but hate the lame pvp systems of WoW and EQ2? (I like GW btw).
Could it be that other types of games just DO pvp better than most MMOs these days?
But ya got me there: I don't like "real life sport competition." I like biking and hiking for fun, not to compete. I keep my competitive spirit for kicking the crap out of people in my many FPSs, GW, and Star Wars Battlegrounds.
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)
the essential problem is that people are not defining things correctly.
hardcore normally is used to mean that someone spends A LOT of time playing the game.
casual means you don't play as much as the hardcore type.
neither of these CAN mean that a player has skills, or not, in that game.
someone's mom/grandma/greatgrandma can grind away to max level and gear in most of the games out right now.
that in no shape, form, or fashion means that granny gots game, i.e. can take anyone down in pvp EVER.
eve is an excellent example of a game where you can just keep gaining skill points (i.e. levels) without the player him/herself actually having any skill themselves. games like wow support the skill-less-player even more by having incredibly non-existent death penalties.
how does that support the skill-less-player MORE, you ask?
i do something incredibly stupid, say that i run into a room full of mobs +3 levels to me. i die, run back to my body in like a minute... what have i learned? that it only takes a minute to run back to my corpse and bumrush all those mobs a SECOND time.
in a game where you can lose things, or maybe like UO, where the mobs will loot items from your corpse.... you come back to your body, to find some of your gear missing, and that lich in the corner laughing at you as he attacks a second time. you learn to not bumrush the mobs and to think about what you're doing. so you LEARN, and you play better.
in wow, you don't really learn anything other than to hang out in a raid for 30-45 minutes, listen to what mob you're going to attack and how you HAVE to attack it, then fight for 3 minutes, then everyone rests and you guys talk another 30-45 minutes to learn what mob and how you'll attack it, etc, etc, etc
ROFL
So true! You hit it right on the head, I think.
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)
This topic is about Casual and Hardcore PVP
Why anyone should be a HARDCORE PvPer in any game that is out there?
So why are the casual pvpers still whining?
Make a game with hardcore pvp so the casual can whine about...
Exactly about Guild Wars.
BTW strange article. Wroted about PvP and not mentioned Guild Wars.
Massive Multiplayer Online Industry
While the write-up itself is somewhat accurate, all I can do is hope that Developer dont read stuff like that and dont agree on it. I said "somewhat", because most of it is missleading. It sounds like all good players are social losers and skilled players ruin the game for everyone else. According to the text, its the best to keep PvP as far away as possible from the gaming world and let player only enter PvP when they want to PvP and only against opponents with equal equipment, equal numbers, equal level and most important: equal skill. Equal skill because losing against a better player completely ruins your gaming experience.
At this point, my bullshit detector went off. "I dont do sports, its no fun... the others are better than I am, whenever I try!"
Steve Wilson should write about stuff he knows, this is sad.
Exactly about Guild Wars.
I couldn't agree more, the article was supposed to be about casual PvP and the funny thing is, that's exactly what you can find in Guild Wars, it's called "Random Arena Battles", and for those who don't know (like the guy who wrote the article) it's the entry-level form of PvP of Guild Wars, a system where you are grouped together with four random people hanging around the arena, facing a similar group of random people; it's casual, it's unpredictable and most of all, a lot of fun. Also, because the really skilled people have moved on to other forms of more organized stuff like Guild vs Guild and such, the playing field is pretty even, most are beginners or advanced beginners I think, not too many elite players hanging around.BTW strange article. Wroted about PvP and not mentioned Guild Wars.
I should add that I am one of those casual mostly PvE-players and i've found that the Random Arenas in Guild Wars is a great way to "jump in" and get a taste of what real PvP is all about: needless to say I was slaughtered the first 10 times or so when I entered these arenas but slowly, ever so slowly I'm starting to get the hang of it, knowing when to hang back and when to go for the attack, how to be an asset to the team rather than a complete disaster, basically learning a little bit more every time, starting to score a kill now and then and even being part of winning a battle here and there! So there is your casual PvP system right there, its been there for about 2 years since the release of GW in fact
Guild Wars is PVP like Counter-Strike is PVP. Ditto World of Warcraft. So far there's been three games that have really given PVP a fleshed out reason to exist: Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and most importantly Shadowbane. Who cares if the PVP is in battlegrounds or not when you don't have a reason to PVP. Humans may be more unpredictable but without a political schema in place the PVP will invariably become stale quite quickly.
The three games mentioned above, especially UO and SB, gave the world to the players to do with what they will. Shadowbane in particular gave about 80% of the world map to be buildable upon by human players. Not only did it add a reason to PVP it added a checks and balances against what many people refer to as 'gankers'. It instantly became a lot harder to gank without fear of serious reprecussion if you had a city with millions of gold and weeks of time invested into it.
PVP needs to be included in MMO's from the get-go, not as some battleground afterthought to appease the crowd. Hopefully whatever game SBG is cooking up now will be able to do match the incredible concepts that began in SB.
From a player like myself that dosen't consider myself "hardcore" yet neither casual. I play WoW atm, just finished a 1 year tour of RF on-line, and was a die hard SWG fan till sony killed it with NGE... ok to the point.
Its not about being Hardcore. What is hard core... its a illusion. games like WoW and RF, SWG EQ 1&2 just are not 3 hour a day games. I seriously doubt there is a person or a large section of ppl that will pay $15/mo + buy in costs of 50$+ expansions to only play this small investment in cash to play a game 12 hours a month.
Thats not even including, Iam willing to say ALOT, maybe 60%-90% of the people that pay that money and are reading this web site, also spend money on high end Head sets, custom keyboards/mice/and other devices paid hosting for ventrilo or team speak. Often operating more then 1 computer with maps, tips, ventrilo, instant messaging devices, forums like this as well as the guild site and the parent game site all running at the same time. hundreds of $$$ invested now.
My point is really that if you are in a pay per month MMO, your all ready beyond the realm of any causual play status. Your all ready in a seperate catagory. You are a MMO player, you are not a xbox live, play station, one time fee of 50$ game that is set and unchanging.
You are a MMOer that expects a evolving changing growing game, you expect that your 50$ buy in, 30$ expasions (ussual more now) and 15$ a month WILL yield you rewards diversity, and content. YOU ARE NOT CASUAL just being in a mmo.
As a forum mod for one of the MMOs i mentioned. I can tell you this. As a player, We expect and demand the most of any other genre. there are no casual MMORPG players. The rest is only complaining WHEN they dont win, and will upgrade at somepoint. Pure and simple. This discussion is fictious and at a end now. When you Pay to play... you have all ready become hardcore.
That is my opinion anyway.
=^.^=
Miataka (+many sub variation of that)
~WoW (Kael'Thas, USA)
MiaTaka
~ RF On-line (Fire Server)
-Mia- takahashi
~SWG (Europe-chimaera)
Miataki Valeinca
~EQ 2 (everfrost)
MiaTaka Soyinka
~Second Life
I haven't seen any other game build off of it yet. My ideal game would incorporate all the great aspects of previous games. I think a medieval based game that has Planetside's/Ultima Online's skill based system, Shadowbane's freedom to pvp, create, destroy, and capture towns/mines/resrouce points, and World of Warcraft's gameplay and graphics would shake and break the current molds out there today. I'm shocked at how much time has eslapsed since Planetside and game companies still don't offer any MMO's that target casual gamers. I think it's a gold mine waiting to be discovered.