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PVP for the anti-PVPers
dark-merlin
Member Posts: 314
While reading the "why dont you like PVP" thread i noticed 90% of people who dont like FFA PVP gave the higher level ganking as the reason they would not play.
Darkfall for example (lets leave out if/when it comes out) has no levels, and gear is player made, so there should be no excuse coming from that. It is based on UOs PVP principles, so it will be full of PVP AND PVE. Skill based combat and anti zerg collision will be implemented, so ganking should be fightable by low numbers.
Would you play this type of FFA pvp?
Comments
I would play any game somebody placed in front of me, I just like playing games, period. The thing is, is that Darkfall may never ever come out. The possibility of it being an april folls joke back in 01 seems more and more likely. Plus, you do not need to have FFA pvp to have "fun". Age of Conans pvp system seems really cool with sieges and massive guild vs guild warfare. WAR breaks sections up into different tiers so that people do not go around ganking.
I think it is time people realise the longer you wait for Darkfall, the less likely it is going to come out. The devs say the same thing over and over and when I asked them on their forums "what do you say to people who claim this game is Vaporware" , they responded by banning me.
As I said in my post in the thread you are referencing here. In all the PvP games I have played, i have never been attacked on "Fair" footing. Thats because people don't want a fair and honorable fight, they want to win. (Well, and make other players lives miserable)
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Those are the ones that get me almost as much as the people who are 10+ levels above me.
So no matter what you can't get rid of those people who stalk you while you fight a mob. Damn campers.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Those are the ones that get me almost as much as the people who are 10+ levels above me.
So no matter what you can't get rid of those people who stalk you while you fight a mob. Damn campers. Another good example. Apparently though, because we don't enjoy having this done to us we are "carebears". And WoW battle grounds is carebear" PvP because it makes everyone the same lvl range and each side the same amount of players. IE It makes it FAIR.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
In Planetisde, any level 1 character can compete with top level character at any time. The difference between them is flexibility in choosing your role in certain situations. For example, a level 1 character has a limited number of certs (skill points) so he can get 2-3 weapons and armor, but not vehicles. So that char may be useful during base assaults, but not in the open where that char may get outflanked and destroyed by vehicles/aircraft.
A level 25 character in comparison has more certs to spend so he is much more flexible in this. He can have weapons/armor for base assault, have a vehicle or two for outside battles, have AMS (movable spawn point) for support and perhaps engineering and medic for support. Thats the only difference. You dont have epic weapons that overpower one char. And random chance is also eliminated, there are no critical hits or misses. You miss ONLY if you (not your char) misses. so a sucky level 25 can get wiped many times by a pro level 1.
This system eliminates dis-balance between noobs and vets, but at the same time has tangible enough effect to encourage people to level and gain certs. Basically, your are good as much as your personal skill is, not your character skill and/or random chance. Best system ive seen so far.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Thats cause Planetside is a MMOFPS, not an MMORPG and a completely pointless comparisson.
Yes you have to put artificial limitations on PvP otherwise it does become a gank fest.
Its not carebear to make PvP fair for both parties.
The biggest problem with PvP is that hardcore players tend to go far ahead of casuals, and if the game allows you to have items of the same type have major difference in damage (ex: epic sword compared to regular sword would be 3-4 times better) then that alone would pretty much unbalance PvP because a single "uber" hardcore player would be able to handle 3-4 not so "uber" casuals. Of course casuals would be pissed and encouraged to grind or spend more time farming for those "uber" weapons.
This is a flaw in the system, IMO. The system should encourage fair competition, not grinding or farming. Less item orientation and less level orientation (unless they can separate differences in levels as in DAOC).
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Sure there is. If there are no levels, then anyone can use any gear available, correct? Or are there skill requirements on weapons and armor before they can be equipped?
If gear is entirely open, then at that point, PvP just becomes a never-ending slaughterfest for anyone who doesn't have rich friends who can make/give them the best gear available. There'd be no pretense of a fair fight, because the people who have access to the more powerful gear would automatically win. That doesn't sound like much fun.
No, I wouldn't.
Even the idea of an FFA PvP world where I can be attacked at any time or in any place just doesn't appeal to me. I play these games to relax and enjoy myself, not to deal with a bunch of PK's. Also, if Darkfall is open with gear, and if it doesn't have any limitations in place for who can equip what, then PvP would be even less fun.
Sure there is. If there are no levels, then anyone can use any gear available, correct? Or are there skill requirements on weapons and armor before they can be equipped?
Yes, there are skill requirements for every armor/weapon.
If gear is entirely open, then at that point, PvP just becomes a never-ending slaughterfest for anyone who doesn't have rich friends who can make/give them the best gear available. There'd be no pretense of a fair fight, because the people who have access to the more powerful gear would automatically win. That doesn't sound like much fun.
Combat in DF is supposed to be about player skill and less about skill levels and what gear everyone is wearing (they do still make a difference, but a smallish one). There is no Sword of Autowin and even if you're a newbie, you at least have somekind of chance of killing a vet.
No, I wouldn't.
Even the idea of an FFA PvP world where I can be attacked at any time or in any place just doesn't appeal to me. I play these games to relax and enjoy myself, not to deal with a bunch of PK's.
Open PvP does not necesarely mean that you will be ganked 24/7. It just means you have to do some work if you want to be 'safe', build a strong guild and a city with walls around it. Then you can relax
The biggest problem with PvP is that hardcore players tend to go far ahead of casuals, and if the game allows you to have items of the same type have major difference in damage (ex: epic sword compared to regular sword would be 3-4 times better) then that alone would pretty much unbalance PvP because a single "uber" hardcore player would be able to handle 3-4 not so "uber" casuals. Of course casuals would be pissed and encouraged to grind or spend more time farming for those "uber" weapons.
This is a flaw in the system, IMO. The system should encourage fair competition, not grinding or farming. Less item orientation and less level orientation (unless they can separate differences in levels as in DAOC).
Completely agree here. I think doing this might also emphasize roleplay (I'm not into it but, some people are). This is the system I would like for a PvP game. You could even put in uber items (not uber in the sense they are now but, if they are used right they can be very powerful) and balance them with rarity and full looting. The more powerful an item the more people are going to want to kill you and take it. Though, no item should make someone invincible even in 1v1. Even someone with all the best gear in the game should still be beatable by someone that is quite a bit more skilled.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
But in a game you are either fighting the computer that doesn't care about winning or losing, or you play other people who will do those same nasty tricks on you. That's the problem. I feel no guilt in ganking an algorythm, it's not a real person without feelings. But a person? That's a different story. When you start being as ruthless to other people as you are to unliving code I think you loose something.
We don't need PvP fights, we need PvP sports.
But in a game you are either fighting the computer that doesn't care about winning or losing, or you play other people who will do those same nasty tricks on you. That's the problem. I feel no guilt in ganking an algorythm, it's not a real person without feelings. But a person? That's a different story. When you start being as ruthless to other people as you are to unliving code I think you loose something.
We don't need PvP fights, we need PvP sports.
Well said!
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Thats one of the biggest advantages of Planetside model - you have to use strategy to be successful. Sure you could zerg mindlessly, but if you do you aren't gonna win (unless numbers stack greatly in your favor). If Planetside had no strategy, it would be just another Counterstrike clone, with big maps.
Strategy makes PvP enjoyable for hardcore players, because its not that easy to master and you need a lot of dedication to get to the point where your character could become a general of sort. And at the same time a PvP model without huge difference in items and levels would make casuals happy and competitive. Its only in Planetside that I get a sense of pride when it is I and my squad that manage to take down a generator through superb strategy and tactical skill or refuel own base under heavy siege, or slip away from a 3 way fight to backhack enemy forces or.... so many things that I could do and really get a feeling that it was I who made the difference.
We need these RTS elements in our MMORPGs to make our gameplay diverse and entertaining, these new PvP models to make us competitive at any level and most of all, we need a competent developer with strong financial backing so that they dont half-make the game and then just half-release it... or something.
Keep the discussion flowing folks, who knows, maybe a dev or two with some brain activity stumbles upon this and listens to our ideas and suggestions *holds breath*
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Only way I would play a FFA PPV game is if there was a bounty system in play.
Say for instance, I get ganked by a group of idiots out to make others lives miserable so they can feel good about themselves. Or I get butchered by that high level guy who wants to make a twink and is too lazy to make it find it's own equipment so he trashes me and takes mine. Lets say, when a non-honor kill (IE as mentioned above) happens, the offenders get a bounty put on them. A permanent bounty (or until they serve time in jail or something) and with this bounty, any NPCs will arrest or kill the offender (depending on amount of bounty, higher bounty should be permadeath)
The problem with PVP is that there is no checks and balances. There is no way to punish the idiots of the worlds. If there was a way to punish them, and make the punishment fit the crimes (You piss off enough people by doing unfair ganking and you lose your character and all his equipment, housing, and gold. So you better be damned sure you want to be a greifer!)
And for those who say we are carebears because we don't want to be harrased in a recreational event, I say. Move out of momies house, get a job, and start paying your own way in life, because that is stress and harrasment enough. We play games to relax, not to make you feel better about yourself.
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self.
--Aristotle
Its not bad, but still exploitable. It would be a great system if the ganking part was removed somehow. Imagine someone doing a "bad" thing like KSing, or stealing from the poor, killing helpless NPCs. While that thing is "bad" it is not "bad" enough to harass players themselves. Punishing that activity, as you said, would be as severe as becoming KOS (kill on sight) within even his own race/clan, or even losing experience or equipment.
As a means for RPing or PvE its a great way to distinguish between "good" and "evil" races/clans/factions. But not in PvP becuase any type of exploitation in regards to people is a big no-no, however harsh penalties awaits the offender.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
But in a game you are either fighting the computer that doesn't care about winning or losing, or you play other people who will do those same nasty tricks on you. That's the problem. I feel no guilt in ganking an algorythm, it's not a real person without feelings. But a person? That's a different story. When you start being as ruthless to other people as you are to unliving code I think you loose something.
We don't need PvP fights, we need PvP sports.I would love to see Warhammer Online have bloodbowl as a minigame. Blood Bowl leagues would be great!
I wonder if one day there realy is gona be a game that does FFA PVP that works and is fun. Alot of linear ideas here, which is strange when there are people like Will Wright making games you would never ever guessed be a succes.
EVE works, I just wish someone used that concept and actualy made an interesting game, you know, with a story and compelling characters that are just a part of that universe, that represent a choice between a career in grinding and owning the market or embarking on an epic journey full of discovery and shit like that...
If u dont like grind fest pvp, then try Guild Wars pvp, its not ffa tho (alliance battle is allmost
) everyone got same lvl items and skills, u do need to unluck skills, but ey compared to grinding that takes no time at all!