I dont mind "unbalanced" classes.

WendoXXX

Not that much to read on on the forum at the moment so i tought i would ask the comunity a question.

How many of u dosent really care if one class pawns everything else in a one vs one fight. In my opinion the important thing is that every class is really good to have in a group. Me myself i could easely play a buff oriented class or somting else that i would imagine suck in a one vs one fight.

irishsausage

no i dont mind. imo a healer should not be able  to take a warrior etc one on one as  this just isnt realistic .

Daedalus732

Originally posted by irishsausage

no i dont mind. imo a healer should not be able  to take a warrior etc one on one as  this just isnt realistic .

Except that healers do tend to own everything in PVP games.



I don't think it's possible to balance every class to every other class, if one particular class dominates all the others, then we do have a problem.

Coldmeat

/sarcasm

Oh my gawd, yes. Every single class must be balanced to the point where no one has any advantage what so ever. And they should throttle the fps you can get to like 15, so that people with better systems, and faster connections don't get an unfair advantage. And, heaven forfend, I should ever lose a pvp encounter, I will immediately bug it, and running screaming to the nearest set of forums, where I, and my crew of whiney bitches will scream for nerfs so long, and loud that the very fabric of existence will restructure itself to my demands.

/sarcasm off

As long as there are no classes completely out of whack, where it's obvious they are able to do things that they shouldn't be doing, I don't care if they're not perfectly balanced. Archers oneshotting people without breaking stealth in early DAoC, for example.

Since there won't be a pure healer/buffer type, there should be less of an issue with that.

The big issues, as I see it, will be balancing melee vs caster itemization, and their power curve. I.E. meleers beat the bejesus out of casters at low levels, but then at high levels casters one shot melee without them even getting a chance to see what happened. That's more of a fight speed thing, though, which personally, I'd like to see slowed down, so it's less dependant on who alpha strikes who with all their frontloaded damage.

Klatu

I like the idea that certain classes have advantages over others.  It makes things interesting and keeps things competitive.  Theres no better feeling than going into a fight the underdog and winning by the skin of your teeth.  Skill should play a bigger role than class, gear, etc.

WendoXXX

I have more or less no experiense from daoc so i dont really know much about how mythic works but maby someone could fill me in on how the balance of the classes was in daoc? Imo a offensive caster should be able to do massive amount of dmg whit a bolt whit long casting time but he shouldent have much protection. I mean if we compare WoW to L2 the main problem in WoW was really that blizzard was giving everything to everyone. Everyclass could do massive dmg and everyclass had stuns and so on. L2 on the otherhand was more like i hope WAR will be, a caster did massive dmg but simply was to slow to fight other classes 1 on 1 but killed ppl like crasy when they had a nice group protecting them and a paladin was simply really really hard to kill and that made them good in cirtain situations. (my l2 experiense comes from back in C1 so i dont know if the situation is different now)

urak

It really would depend on how strong they we're compared to other classes. If a class could kill 2 or 3 people alone without breaking a sweat, I would feel a nerf would be in place. But as long as group PvP (10 or more) is balanced I could tolerate one class being able to take on any other class and have about 70% chance to win.



Since 1v1 fights wont matter that much in the long run I could live with a few unfair 1v1 fights.

urak

"I like the idea that certain classes have advantages over others.  It makes things interesting and keeps things competitive.  Theres no better feeling than going into a fight the underdog and winning by the skin of your teeth.  Skill should play a bigger role than class, gear, etc."





You feel that some classes should have advantages over others when it comes to PvP, yet you contradict yourself by saying that skill should play a bigger role than "class, gear, etc" Care to elaborate? As I see it, if say, class X has certain advantages over class Z and they both face each other in a fight class X would win over Z ( assuming they are identically skilled) because X would have an in-built advantage.

WendoXXX

Originally posted by urak

It really would depend on how strong they we're compared to other classes. If a class could kill 2 or 3 people alone without breaking a sweat, I would feel a nerf would be in place. But as long as group PvP (10 or more) is balanced I could tolerate one class being able to take on any other class and have about 70% chance to win.



Since 1v1 fights wont matter that much in the long run I could live with a few unfair 1v1 fights.

Ye i guess it wouldent work if u took it to extremse... but an intresting tought would be if one class was so strong that he could kill 3 other melee classes in by him self but being so slow that everyone else can outrun him

Trevalin

Originally posted by WendoXXX


Not that much to read on on the forum at the moment so i tought i would ask the comunity a question.
How many of u dosent really care if one class pawns everything else in a one vs one fight. In my opinion the important thing is that every class is really good to have in a group. Me myself i could easely play a buff oriented class or somting else that i would imagine suck in a one vs one fight.

Easy fix. Scrap the classes and lvling system. Make a skill based system. You choose your skills decide exactly what you want to be.

WendoXXX

Originally posted by Trevalin

Originally posted by WendoXXX


Not that much to read on on the forum at the moment so i tought i would ask the comunity a question.
How many of u dosent really care if one class pawns everything else in a one vs one fight. In my opinion the important thing is that every class is really good to have in a group. Me myself i could easely play a buff oriented class or somting else that i would imagine suck in a one vs one fight.

Easy fix. Scrap the classes and lvling system. Make a skill based system. You choose your skills decide exactly what you want to be.

I dont really understand how that would help?

Klatu

Originally posted by urak

"I like the idea that certain classes have advantages over others.  It makes things interesting and keeps things competitive.  Theres no better feeling than going into a fight the underdog and winning by the skin of your teeth.  Skill should play a bigger role than class, gear, etc."





You feel that some classes should have advantages over others when it comes to PvP, yet you contradict yourself by saying that skill should play a bigger role than "class, gear, etc" Care to elaborate? As I see it, if say, class X has certain advantages over class Z and they both face each other in a fight class X would win over Z ( assuming they are identically skilled) because X would have an in-built advantage.

 

You basically answered your own question, "assuming they are identically skilled"  Skill can simply be knowing what to do when to do it.  Class x can do more damage to class z but never thinks to heal himself while class z is slowly beating on class x while drinking potions,  which both classes can do lets say, until he wins.  Now class x had the advantage of doing more damage to class z, but didn't think to heal himself, class z won by having the skill to heal himself while slowly beating on the other.  Now I know this is a very basic example, but one I feel that works.  I agree with you that if they are identically skilled sure x>z. 

Dreadlich

Complete balance isn't possible and isn't necissary. Usually it's a rock/paper/scissors scenario with class balance. Class X owns class Y who owns Z who owns X. The point of RvR though is to minimize the 1v1 egofests and focus on the larger battle. No stealth will go a long way in subduing the typical solo l337 rogue player common in most fantasy MMOs. WAR should be balanced on a realm basis, not a class basis. I'd even go as far as saying they could give major realm-wide buffs to the underpopulated realms if DoWs aren't cutting it.

So no, I don't believe class parity is necissary for a balanced game.

FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by WendoXXX

Originally posted by Trevalin

Originally posted by WendoXXX


Not that much to read on on the forum at the moment so i tought i would ask the comunity a question.
How many of u dosent really care if one class pawns everything else in a one vs one fight. In my opinion the important thing is that every class is really good to have in a group. Me myself i could easely play a buff oriented class or somting else that i would imagine suck in a one vs one fight.

Easy fix. Scrap the classes and lvling system. Make a skill based system. You choose your skills decide exactly what you want to be.

I dont really understand how that would help?It won't, he is just pushing his skill based needs on the rest of us.

Godliest

A game that's PvP oriented should have classes that are equal to eachother in 1v1 PvP. It's not always you will play in a grp, and when ur out trying to get some kills alone u want to be equal in strength to the other players out there.

It's acceptable if one class is slightly weaker than the other classes and harder to learn how to PvP with, but if one class is so much weaker that it has problems killing any other class in 1v1 it's not acceptable. This would create a class that would be totally underpopulated and those few who still played the class would be the first target of every1. This is not something that's good in any aspect.

The classes should be fairly balanced. Without balance the game will soon get classes that are more common and this will make the fights more unfair, as maybe one side has one class that is much better than the other sides. This will make them gain advantage in smaller fights and in the end make them stronger. These consequences are terrible as they game is PvP based.

Anofalye

PvP concerns are irrelevant to me.

 

What matters is PvE...but not all classes have to solo equally, as long as poor soloers are extremely sough in groups, this is fine.  If class A is a wonderfull grouper but has issue to solo, that is fine, everyone will want to group him.  Of course, I will try to get best grouper and best soloer and then figure what compromise is best...or play 2 characters.  If I play 2 characters, I wish I can be LFG for my grouping character while I am soloing on the other...don't want to be LFG and waiting...if my grouping toon can't solo, then, I expect to be LFG while playing my soloer...not waiting.

 

Usually strong PvP class in 1 on 1 are also strong soloers...not always...but...almost.  So again, as long as the weak ones are very good at grouping! 

Smokeymcpots

I believe that most of the time a warrior for example should be able to beat a healing/dps class most of the time. However, not such a huge difference were a skilled healing/dps could in fact beat the warrior, but only with refined tactics and a bit of luck. If you make any class too strong in 1vs1, you just it makes things pretty miserable for everyone who dosnt have the ownage class.(warlock in WoW for example). Also, characters do need to be a little balanced in 1vs1 pvp because thats were a lot of the pvp takes place(in 1vs1 combat).

FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by Godliest


A game that's PvP oriented should have classes that are equal to eachother in 1v1 PvP. It's not always you will play in a grp, and when ur out trying to get some kills alone u want to be equal in strength to the other players out there.
It's acceptable if one class is slightly weaker than the other classes and harder to learn how to PvP with, but if one class is so much weaker that it has problems killing any other class in 1v1 it's not acceptable. This would create a class that would be totally underpopulated and those few who still played the class would be the first target of every1. This is not something that's good in any aspect.
The classes should be fairly balanced. Without balance the game will soon get classes that are more common and this will make the fights more unfair, as maybe one side has one class that is much better than the other sides. This will make them gain advantage in smaller fights and in the end make them stronger. These consequences are terrible as they game is PvP based.

So a fighter, whose job is to fight in melee, should have a 50/50 chance of beating a healer in 1v1 pvp? 

Huria

I think a lot of people confuse "unbalanced" and "overpowered" with "stuff my class can't do". In a lot of games I usually hear complaints of ___ doing 6 more damage then me thats overpowered and unbalanced. Or why does HE get that move that is MY classes move. Stuff like that.



IMO after 6 months the class  balance should be done. A lot of the overpowered classes are because it got a buff one patch while others didn't which cause an uproar untill they balance the other classes then the first class that got a patch is worse then all the other and continue the cycle. After 6 months they should know what they want for the classes and that should be that.

WendoXXX

Originally posted by Godliest


A game that's PvP oriented should have classes that are equal to eachother in 1v1 PvP. It's not always you will play in a grp, and when ur out trying to get some kills alone u want to be equal in strength to the other players out there.
It's acceptable if one class is slightly weaker than the other classes and harder to learn how to PvP with, but if one class is so much weaker that it has problems killing any other class in 1v1 it's not acceptable. This would create a class that would be totally underpopulated and those few who still played the class would be the first target of every1. This is not something that's good in any aspect.
The classes should be fairly balanced. Without balance the game will soon get classes that are more common and this will make the fights more unfair, as maybe one side has one class that is much better than the other sides. This will make them gain advantage in smaller fights and in the end make them stronger. These consequences are terrible as they game is PvP based.

Even tough i respect ur opinion i must say that i completly dissagree. I would gladly play a class that really cant win vs anyother class in a 1vs1 fight but instead is extremly powerfull to a group or raid. Then again im a 100% guild player. Casual partyes or solo play is for me only somting necessary to reach end game. Real problem picking classes is imo always that ur class can change so much during the time u play. My biggest fear right now about the classes is that mythic will do a "blizzard" and litsen to all whining kids and more or less try to give all classes everything so everyone will stay quiet for a few days until they finaly realize that that wont help there "l2p" issues.

WendoXXX

Originally posted by Huria

I think a lot of people confuse "unbalanced" and "overpowered" with "stuff my class can't do". In a lot of games I usually hear complaints of ___ doing 6 more damage then me thats overpowered and unbalanced. Or why does HE get that move that is MY classes move. Stuff like that.



IMO after 6 months the class  balance should be done. A lot of the overpowered classes are because it got a buff one patch while others didn't which cause an uproar untill they balance the other classes then the first class that got a patch is worse then all the other and continue the cycle. After 6 months they should know what they want for the classes and that should be that.

Good post. Thats just the thing. Some ppl whants everything. They want to be a healer but they want to do dmg, they want to be ranged but they want to be able to handle them self in CC, they want to be hard to kill.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Anofalye


PvP concerns are irrelevant to me.
 
What matters is PvE...but not all classes have to solo equally, as long as poor soloers are extremely sough in groups, this is fine.  If class A is a wonderfull grouper but has issue to solo, that is fine, everyone will want to group him.  Of course, I will try to get best grouper and best soloer and then figure what compromise is best...or play 2 characters.  If I play 2 characters, I wish I can be LFG for my grouping character while I am soloing on the other...don't want to be LFG and waiting...if my grouping toon can't solo, then, I expect to be LFG while playing my soloer...not waiting.
 
Usually strong PvP class in 1 on 1 are also strong soloers...not always...but...almost.  So again, as long as the weak ones are very good at grouping! 

Not a bad answer...but certainly not the correct one for WAR, since the game is all about "the PVP.".

But I'd like to see all classes equally useful in a group situation so that we don't have some that no one want's to include in their group because its underpowered compared to others.

Godliest

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Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

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Originally posted by Godliest

A game that's PvP oriented should have classes that are equal to eachother in 1v1 PvP. It's not always you will play in a grp, and when ur out trying to get some kills alone u want to be equal in strength to the other players out there.
It's acceptable if one class is slightly weaker than the other classes and harder to learn how to PvP with, but if one class is so much weaker that it has problems killing any other class in 1v1 it's not acceptable. This would create a class that would be totally underpopulated and those few who still played the class would be the first target of every1. This is not something that's good in any aspect.
The classes should be fairly balanced. Without balance the game will soon get classes that are more common and this will make the fights more unfair, as maybe one side has one class that is much better than the other sides. This will make them gain advantage in smaller fights and in the end make them stronger. These consequences are terrible as they game is PvP based.

---

So a fighter, whose job is to fight in melee, should have a 50/50 chance of beating a healer in 1v1 pvp? 

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NO!!!! You got me totally wrong! First, there is no 100% healer class in WAR, and it should never be. A healer class in WAR is totally wrong imo.

I said that all classes should have equal chance of beating eachother in 1v1 PvP and I say so because I knew that WAR didn't have any 100% healer class. In a game like WoW or any PvE based game I can accept that all classes aren't fair in 1v1 PvP, because that's not the focus of the game. But in a game like WAR this can't be accepted.

The fighters role may be to fight, but the "healers" role isn't only to heal. Ofc the healer will heal when he's fighting in bigger grps, but in 1v1 he should also have offensive spells. With these offensive spells and his healing abilities he should be able to beat another class. This isn't an impossible thought, it's very logical actually.

That's my opinion.

Godliest

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Originally posted by WendoXXX

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Originally posted by Godliest

A game that's PvP oriented should have classes that are equal to eachother in 1v1 PvP. It's not always you will play in a grp, and when ur out trying to get some kills alone u want to be equal in strength to the other players out there.
It's acceptable if one class is slightly weaker than the other classes and harder to learn how to PvP with, but if one class is so much weaker that it has problems killing any other class in 1v1 it's not acceptable. This would create a class that would be totally underpopulated and those few who still played the class would be the first target of every1. This is not something that's good in any aspect.
The classes should be fairly balanced. Without balance the game will soon get classes that are more common and this will make the fights more unfair, as maybe one side has one class that is much better than the other sides. This will make them gain advantage in smaller fights and in the end make them stronger. These consequences are terrible as they game is PvP based.

---

Even tough i respect ur opinion i must say that i completly dissagree. I would gladly play a class that really cant win vs anyother class in a 1vs1 fight but instead is extremly powerfull to a group or raid. Then again im a 100% guild player. Casual partyes or solo play is for me only somting necessary to reach end game. Real problem picking classes is imo always that ur class can change so much during the time u play. My biggest fear right now about the classes is that mythic will do a "blizzard" and litsen to all whining kids and more or less try to give all classes everything so everyone will stay quiet for a few days until they finaly realize that that wont help there "l2p" issues.

---

Yes, different classes have different roles, so far so good. But in WAR it's been said that it won't be any 100% healer class. If there is no 100% healer class, then the class must have some offensive spells, right?

My opinion is that these offensive spells combined with the ability to heal should make the "healer" class able to kill a fighter. This is after all not illogical.

You probably see my point here?

logangregor

Thats a tough question. Personally I am happy either way.

DAOC WASNT balanced in 1v1 in the SLIGHTEST. If I came up on certain classes, I knew that it didnt matter what I did in the fight and that it was practically inevitable I was going to lose. This made it very important to play well in a GROUP setting and I enjoyed the group pvp very much.

On the other hand, after playing DAOC, I played WoW. What a difference. Although certain classes had specific advantages over other classes I can easily say that anyone can beat anyone 1v1 regardless of class. That also was a whole lot of fun.

But with the fact that anyone can play solo in WoW, the downside was that no one played a group style of PvP as in DAOC. People just didnt play smart in groups.

If someone actually took a 8 man group in WoW and ran them in pvp like a DAOC group(main assist/full time CC/protect healers), well that would just blow my mind.

wjrasmussen

Originally posted by Godliest


 

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose


Originally posted by Godliest
 
A game that's PvP oriented should have classes that are equal to eachother in 1v1 PvP. It's not always you will play in a grp, and when ur out trying to get some kills alone u want to be equal in strength to the other players out there.

It's acceptable if one class is slightly weaker than the other classes and harder to learn how to PvP with, but if one class is so much weaker that it has problems killing any other class in 1v1 it's not acceptable. This would create a class that would be totally underpopulated and those few who still played the class would be the first target of every1. This is not something that's good in any aspect.

The classes should be fairly balanced. Without balance the game will soon get classes that are more common and this will make the fights more unfair, as maybe one side has one class that is much better than the other sides. This will make them gain advantage in smaller fights and in the end make them stronger. These consequences are terrible as they game is PvP based.

So a fighter, whose job is to fight in melee, should have a 50/50 chance of beating a healer in 1v1 pvp? 

---

 

NO!!!! You got me totally wrong! First, there is no 100% healer class in WAR, and it should never be. A healer class in WAR is totally wrong imo.

I said that all classes should have equal chance of beating eachother in 1v1 PvP and I say so because I knew that WAR didn't have any 100% healer class. In a game like WoW or any PvE based game I can accept that all classes aren't fair in 1v1 PvP, because that's not the focus of the game. But in a game like WAR this can't be accepted.

The fighters role may be to fight, but the "healers" role isn't only to heal. Ofc the healer will heal when he's fighting in bigger grps, but in 1v1 he should also have offensive spells. With these offensive spells and his healing abilities he should be able to beat another class. This isn't an impossible thought, it's very logical actually.

That's my opinion.

That doesn't make sense to me.  Unless things are the same they are different.  Show me a way to produce balance with AOE effects, range attacks, melee attacks and pets, the I will consider it.  But it needs to be a math based proof not a it feels right "proof".