Economy Issues

Knightblast

This is the first significant design issue I have come across in this game: the economy.  Right now, it isn't really working, at least not without a good deal of farming humanoid mobs for cash.  The prices for repairs, travel, skill training, mail costs and low-level crafting inputs are leaving many people strapped for cash, even though they are not dying (which leads to even more expensive repairs) and are not buying anything at all on the AH.



Turbine is looking at the issue now, but it seems like it may be a hardish one for them to fix in the short term unless they do something slapdash.  Clearly the idea behind the economy's design is to use repair costs as the main money sink of the game.  This sounds well, but it creates real imbalances in practice.  In a fellowship, for example, the tank (typically a Guardian) is taking many, many, many more "hits" than anyone else, and is ending up with repair bills 10-20x what everyone else has, so for him to go on an instance or group run is a substantially losing proposition economically --- the suggestion that the rest of the group should pay for his repairs is well, ... interesting but impractical.  No MMO has a "tank repair subsidy" notion, and I don't expect you'll be seeing players of this one ponying up "repair cash" for their group tank, particularly given how strapped for cash they are themselves after their own repairs from solo trips and skill purchases.



The situation is being somewhat managed now because people are capped and can farm for a week or two without incurring training costs at least (won't be doing that when cap is released and people are EXPing again and incurring 20s training costs) -- even there, however, one has to be very careful what you are farming, because farming runs against mobs that hit hard (even if they are a low con) can result in repair bills that take away much of the profit of farming.  Added to that is the issue that people are attracted to this game because it is not a farming game (or so they thought), and so the answer of "just go farm" isn't going over well with the playerbase at the moment.



It's a serious issue, and the first one I have seen that has a real negative impact on gameplay even for people who otherwise enjoy the game.  The issue gets significantly more acute with levels (skill training costs more).  It doesn't lend itself to an easy solution other than manhandling prices, which I suspect Turbine is loathe to do because they set up the economy this way hoping it would work.  I suspect the real way of fixing it -- a lot of fine tuning everywhere -- will take quite some time, and release is looming.

kramster

Turbine wielded the great nerf bat on the economy very recently and screwed the economy in my opinion.

Training costs - up

travel cost - up

repair costs - up

AH fees - up

mailing fees - up

Cash drops - down

Quest cash reward - down

Quest xp - down

IMO this was done to slow players down and give Turbine time to patch/add content. When players reach 35+ the majority of mobs are elite, the solo quests dry up and the game becomes a real grind, no more casual play.

Xpheyel

I can't figure out this issue. I was a little short on coins coming out of the newbie instance but just bumming around up to level 15 netted me plenty, except I put off buying instruments for a while. I'd usually have 50-some silvers and spend maybe half of that in town on skills, then make it back. At level 13-14 I made about 90 silvers before buying my most expensive skills. Running around playing with burgle made that back in an afternoon, before I leveled to 15. Then I went to Erad Luin to work on some Virtue Traits I like and I'm to 475 silver.

Skills are a bigger money sink than repair costs for me. Even with my purple class-quest reward hat and a Mace of the Woodlands I think my highest repair cost has been 3 silvers. I make at least twenty from selling drops to vendors, then I sell any nice looking yellows for 4-7 silvers on the AH. At the end of the day, the repair costs are sapping down little more then a tenth of what I make.

rwmiller

Getting the economy right is one of the hardest things to do in an mmo. It's also one of the most important things to do well as when it's badly done it will drive users away in droves. No one wants to spend days, weeks and months grinding away at collecting cash to purchase something important like a mount. To have to stop what you are doing to go earn some money just so you can afford to repair your armor is not good at all.

Huria

Economies in MMOs are one of the most important parts of a game. It can seriously make or break a game as seen in FFXI so I hope Turbine can fix it upi

Knightblast

Yeah apparently the repair costs are scaling a LOT based on armor tier, such that heavy armor and shields are costing a LOT more to repair than medium or light armor.  Many of the complaints about repair costs are coming from guardians, for example.



I haven't played any Guardians, so my main issues have not been repair costs, but rather crafting component costs (I'm just not bothering doing any treatments of wood at the moment when wax costs 48c per), mail costs (I understand the idea of scaling with the value of the item, but it's just too expensive -- it makes sending mats and items around alts and guild members prohibitively expensive and nerfs the real usefulness of the mail system) and transit costs (I just don't use them at all ... as they are now they're a luxury item).



I think Turbine is worried that if these costs are reduced, that there will be too much gold in the economy and it will cause inflation.  As it is now, though, people in some classes are struggling a lot to play the game, period, while others are just leaving entire areas of the game untouched because of the expense.

Mars505

I like the economy as is. Find the last update tweaks relieved a lot of things while leaving it diffucult for high money making items not be an instant ATM machine.  Think if the touch the economy any further it will be very bad , I can say the only people really complaining about the economy are the people who where farmers in Closed Beta, most everyone else really isn't feeling the pinch.



But if you feel it need more work, post :

forums.lotro.com/showthread.php



LotRO is not some 2 bit whore where turbine uses unofficial forums to hang the laundry.

To add you waste so much time posting this stuff here cause NO REAL DEV COMES HERE . If you are serious about aspects of the game , you already know Turbine has their eyes on the OFFICIAL forum, so why are so many of these threads being produced when the input would surve ALL of the lotrO community in a place that is read by the DEVS.  It is cool you want to discuss this but it is something better discussed on the O.F. where devs can get input from the players.

Knightblast

Originally posted by Mars505

I like the economy as is. Find the last update tweaks relieved a lot of things while leaving it diffucult for high money making items not be an instant ATM machine.  Think if the touch the economy any further it will be very bad , I can say the only people really complaining about the economy are the people who where farmers in Closed Beta, most everyone else really isn't feeling the pinch.



But if you feel it need more work, post :

forums.lotro.com/showthread.php



LotRO is not some 2 bit whore where turbine uses unofficial forums to hang the laundry.

To add you waste so much time posting this stuff here cause NO REAL DEV COMES HERE . If you are serious about aspects of the game , you already know Turbine has their eyes on the OFFICIAL forum, so why are so many of these threads being produced when the input would surve ALL of the lotrO community in a place that is read by the DEVS.  It is cool you want to discuss this but it is something better discussed on the O.F. where devs can get input from the players.

It's already being discussed there.  I think it's important to mention here as well, because people do come to this site and these forums to find out about games they are curious about, and this is an issue people are having with the game at the moment that these folks who are not going to see the official LOTRO forums should at least be aware of.

Mars505

Originally posted by Novaseeker

Originally posted by Mars505

I like the economy as is. Find the last update tweaks relieved a lot of things while leaving it diffucult for high money making items not be an instant ATM machine.  Think if the touch the economy any further it will be very bad , I can say the only people really complaining about the economy are the people who where farmers in Closed Beta, most everyone else really isn't feeling the pinch.



But if you feel it need more work, post :

forums.lotro.com/showthread.php



LotRO is not some 2 bit whore where turbine uses unofficial forums to hang the laundry.

To add you waste so much time posting this stuff here cause NO REAL DEV COMES HERE . If you are serious about aspects of the game , you already know Turbine has their eyes on the OFFICIAL forum, so why are so many of these threads being produced when the input would surve ALL of the lotrO community in a place that is read by the DEVS.  It is cool you want to discuss this but it is something better discussed on the O.F. where devs can get input from the players.

It's already being discussed there.  I think it's important to mention here as well, because people do come to this site and these forums to find out about games they are curious about, and this is an issue people are having with the game at the moment that these folks who are not going to see the official LOTRO forums should at least be aware of. As long as you discussing it even at both site, then fine. I hate seeing this kind of post go wasted in an unofficail outlet

seabass2003

Remember to always sell before you do repairs as items your carrying are sometimes damaged. Otherwise you are repairing items just to sell them.

er99

Originally posted by Novaseeker

This is the first significant design issue I have come across in this game: the economy.  Right now, it isn't really working, at least not without a good deal of farming humanoid mobs for cash.  The prices for repairs, travel, skill training, mail costs and low-level crafting inputs are leaving many people strapped for cash, even though they are not dying (which leads to even more expensive repairs) and are not buying anything at all on the AH.



Turbine is looking at the issue now, but it seems like it may be a hardish one for them to fix in the short term unless they do something slapdash.  Clearly the idea behind the economy's design is to use repair costs as the main money sink of the game.  This sounds well, but it creates real imbalances in practice.  In a fellowship, for example, the tank (typically a Guardian) is taking many, many, many more "hits" than anyone else, and is ending up with repair bills 10-20x what everyone else has, so for him to go on an instance or group run is a substantially losing proposition economically --- the suggestion that the rest of the group should pay for his repairs is well, ... interesting but impractical.  No MMO has a "tank repair subsidy" notion, and I don't expect you'll be seeing players of this one ponying up "repair cash" for their group tank, particularly given how strapped for cash they are themselves after their own repairs from solo trips and skill purchases.



The situation is being somewhat managed now because people are capped and can farm for a week or two without incurring training costs at least (won't be doing that when cap is released and people are EXPing again and incurring 20s training costs) -- even there, however, one has to be very careful what you are farming, because farming runs against mobs that hit hard (even if they are a low con) can result in repair bills that take away much of the profit of farming.  Added to that is the issue that people are attracted to this game because it is not a farming game (or so they thought), and so the answer of "just go farm" isn't going over well with the playerbase at the moment.



It's a serious issue, and the first one I have seen that has a real negative impact on gameplay even for people who otherwise enjoy the game.  The issue gets significantly more acute with levels (skill training costs more).  It doesn't lend itself to an easy solution other than manhandling prices, which I suspect Turbine is loathe to do because they set up the economy this way hoping it would work.  I suspect the real way of fixing it -- a lot of fine tuning everywhere -- will take quite some time, and release is looming.

couldn't they just scale item deterioration based on the class? for example tanks who feel the cost of repair the worse wear the heaviest armor. it would make sense heavier armor would hold up the best to damage. it would seem ok to just make it so deterioration is slower for some classes. i know thats probably oversimplifying things but might work?

Kyleran

I believe right now they've throttled the economy back some so that players who join the game come opening day (hard to believe but some folks don't join during beta) don't enter the game and find a lot of players fabulously richer than them and an over-inflated economy already in place.



It won't be that hard for them to reduce the repair costs if they think its necessary, especially for Guardians. But I'm a Guardian, and I'm not really having any money issues.  It is important to farm for cash a bit..can't just race through your quests, even if you want to. Also, since you level so quickly from 1-15 I really never repair anything unless it actually turns yellow.  So far this has meant repairs needed to only a pair of shoulders, some bronze crafting tools and a weapon or something.... otherwise I sell them w/o repairing...



I'm not rich..but I'm level 15, have all my skills, all traits put in place, blown a bunch o silver on farming, sold a little bit of stuff on the AH, and still have about 100 silver in the bank right now. (wearing fully crafted bronze plate armor.)



No, I'm not buying the spendy 500 silver weapons and stuff..but thats ok... I don't need them to play....



Fear not..it will all work out in the end.... and we'll be surrounded by farmers camping our best spawn points and selling not so cheap gold and complaining about it.... (let's hope not)

Superman0X

The problem with the economy is not that there is too much drain, too little rewards, or that it is imbalanced with regards of risk vs rewards. The problem is that the drain of skills and equipment repairs is not balanced between classes. One class may level from 0-15 and end up with 100+ Silver. Another class can do the exact same thing... and end up broke, with most of thier equipment broken from disrepair.

The problem lies in two areas, skills, and equipment repair. Some classes have 3x more skills, and many of those skills cost 2-3x more to train. This makes skill training very expensive for some, and dirt cheap for others. The other (and greater problem) lies with equipment repair. I have found out the hard way that for some classes, the equipment is MUCH (2-3x) cheaper to replace than repair. You can buy a new (fully repaired) item for much less than repairing the item that you have. The item repair cost is excessively high on certain types of items. This leads to an extremely high repair bill.

The solution is to change both of these areas to make all classes consistent (to a certain extent).

Those classes with few skills should have to pay more(skill). Those with more skills, should have to pay less (per skill). Even it out so that the cost for all skills from 0-15 is approximately equal.

Make all repairs have a fixed relationship between the cost of the item, and the repair cost. Buying a new item should cost the same as repairing the old item. Yes some items cost more (and sell for more), but everything should be in scale... not the arbitrary system that exists now.

Keogh

Originally posted by kramster


Turbine wielded the great nerf bat on the economy very recently and screwed the economy in my opinion.
Training costs - up
travel cost - up
repair costs - up
AH fees - up
mailing fees - up
Cash drops - down
Quest cash reward - down
Quest xp - down
IMO this was done to slow players down and give Turbine time to patch/add content. When players reach 35+ the majority of mobs are elite, the solo quests dry up and the game becomes a real grind, no more casual play.

Some of the post above is factual, but it really happened because a bunch of people whined and moaned on the BETA Forum about money not being important and not haveing anything to do with all of their gold, and you're  looking at the result.

Now, all of those idiots and morons that cried about having too much money are silent, and the rest of us are forced to suffer through this broken system.

By the way, LOTRO was already assaulted by a gold farming operation ( ITEMrate.com ). This S.O.B. spammed the OOC chat Ch. in Bree nonstop ( it made the chat ch. unusable ) until he was silenced by a GM.

Salvatoris

I really think most of the issues now are caused by the level 15 cap.  The game economy is not geared toward you spending several weeks at level 15.  It causes you to repeatedly repair your bound quest gear, rather than replacing it before it has a chance to degrade.  That is why you really don't see the issue until you get to the level 15 cap. 

They have already stated that they know the cost of repairs to quested items and jewelry, and the purchase of certain crafting items are too high.  If you stick those items in the vault and just wear crafted or vendor gear once you hit the cap, you will start raking in cash.  Once the cap goes away, and people start doing quests again you will be back to a situation where gear is replaced before it has a chance to turn red.  With all common gear you don't really lose much at low levels, and you can repair all for the same price as repairing one quested earing. it's also important to try and die as little as possible.

Horse travel seems a bit high, but I suppose they want to discourage it... same goes with mailing items.  Those can both be gotten around with a little footwork. 

BaronJuJu

Originally posted by Keogh


By the way, LOTRO was already assaulted by a gold farming operation ( ITEMrate.com ). This S.O.B. spammed the OOC chat Ch. in Bree nonstop ( it made the chat ch. unusable ) until he was silenced by a GM.

I just started the beta yesterday and the chat channel was one of the first things I noticed that gold farmers were going to exploit. Regular folks were already talking over each other so much that it was hard to follow a conversation on there as it was. I don't give it long after launch for the main chat channel to be completely worthless, filled with spam from tons of barker bots camping in main towns.