. The the amount of differnt skills to take is very limited.
You get more skills , later in your level, you gets new skills all the way to level 50
Plus the developers are are already working on more skills, for expansions as well as raising the level cap.
You guys forget how small some of your favorite mmo's started out because they been out for over 4 years or more. This is a brand new baby, and through the years it will grow and grow , like so many mmo's have done .
Someone was mentioning specs, if you noticed in your character panel, each class has 1 or 2 red numbers, that is your weakness, you use armors and weapons to change and tweak your characters specs. When you get into higher levels and when the 1 shot recipes start to drop, you will see a very diverse range of armors and weapons to help tweak out your character.
LotRO doesn't do things "directly" like with specs, or the classes definitions, people think a hunter is a Archer, like every other mmo, buzz wrong, the hunter is like a nuker, he deals major damage over short period of time, but instead of magic to nuke , he uses a bow. Things like this are being over looked by the people who already decided what they thought about the game before they even tried it.
While I will agree that LoTR does not really bring anything new to the genre outside of Monster Play which is really a form of the Guildwars PvP, it is the same old fantasy hack and slash stuff.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
What you "uber leet" Dudes are missing is that the fun in these games is not great graphics, great crafting, or even a great combat engine. These older Gamers now want a solid game that offers convenience and the ability to play with other people to defeat a event or situation and grow your character.
LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy.
So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you.
I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
It is amazing how many DAOC and UO vets play LOTRO right now. I have 2 kids and a hectic schedule already.. LOTRO doesn't add stress like other games did. I am not worried about missing something in game because of RL obligations, and not worried that I might just blow off RL obligations to do something in LOTRO.
These sorts of threads are entertaining. I'll tell you what innovative game play gets you: 1). Roma Victor 2). Second Life 3). WWII Online 4). Shadowbane 5). Sims Online 6). Auto Assault And unlike most of you who dream about wanting innovative gameplay, and complain about the lack of it, I have played most of the above games. Innovation isn't all it's cracked up to be. Innovative games will always be on the fringe, just like innovative movies. The fringe is not a pretty place to be...it is rough, often ugly, and requires patience. So it's nice and easy to dream that LOTRO could have been different from the comfort of your armchair when you weren't the one footing the 40+ million in development costs.
Ed Zachary...
Continuing on this thought, all of those games were freaking spectacular on paper, but the execution didn't quite pull it off.
It must be stressed that these games are still highly important in their ability to inspire things in other mainstream games. The innovative off-the-beaten-path games that end up being budget bin garbage are truly the pioneers of gaming theory, and other companies with bigger budgets/better programmers build on the original ideas.
Most people who games as much as I do already know this, but I wanted to throw it out there for the newcomers It is a vicious cycle that is apparent in pretty much any industry.
Precisely. My list was in no way meant to disparage these games. They are necessary. Heck, some of them I even found fun (and return to from time to time).
Any of you reading this who claim to want innovation need to put your money where your mouth is and support these games that are truly innovative.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Don't get me started on Second Life ( I have been banned for prior comments about it) . LotRO is great , Turbine needs to woe Lucas Arts for the Star Wars Franchise and the much needed and surely to be improved by them, SWG2.
Originally posted by Tnice LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy. So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you. I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
I just read the MMORPG.com article about casual gaming. I mostly agree with the article and I can't say I disagree with what you are saying. But you can also do this with WoW. Yes LOTRO is new with a different local and classes, but I've matured to a point where I'm mostly looking for something new as in innovative in a MMO. I played WoW hardcore for 14 months and then took a year off. I recently started up new WoW characters with my wife and we are playing on a casual basis. So with any new MMO, I want something that will draw me in. Unfortunately LOTRO did not do this. My problem as others have mentioned is that LOTRO did not feel like what I thought it should feel like. It felt flat and the starter quests in the human and elf areas did nothing to draw me in. If I feel like it's WoW with new window dressing, that probably won't attract me.
I realize this is a dilemma but for any company starting a new MMO, dealing with players who have played several MMOs, at what point is slaying wolves or rats not going to seem repetitive to the player? I realize it is only the starter area, but instead of positive reinforcement, players are going to be feeling, oh this again... Unfortunately to be fair, you must invest substantial time into a new MMO to really evaluate it.
Which leads me to ask- should a new MMO starter area be enough to make a decision about a MMO's game play or should you give it say 3 months?
A MMO with a dynamic environment has the potential of wowing me (no pun intended) but are any of those in work? I've read that Hero's Journey was advertising dynamic quest chains, but who knows if that will ever see the light of day. Age of Conan looks interesting but is it mostly PvP?
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
WoW became extremly popular because of the series they had under the RTS genre. Nothing less and nothing more.
Sadly, the MMO world has digressed since then. Everything is modeled after WoW now because all the DEVs see is numbers of the subscribers and not the reason why WoW became so popular in the first place (which is because of the World of Warcraft history of RTS).
Every single MMO who tried to emulate Wow has failed. Every-single-one of them. Star Wars and the CU, Vanguard and its theories, etc; all of them. Why? Because they weren't WoW. They didnt develope a following like Blizzard did with World of Warcraft series, Starcraft, etc. MMO developers thinks is this or thinks it's that. But the reason is right there in front of their faces; its the Blizzard's name.
For the MMORPGers who have been playing MMOs long since before WoW was starting to experience the sand box world, the unrestricted form of adventuring, the elimination of that stupid treadmill system, we're beginning to loose all hope of what the direction of the MMO was heading towards.
World of Warcraft is like McDonalds. Its easy, its cheap and fast. Just like a poor person with a few nickels and a couple quarters can get a double cheeseburger, so can a person with a computer built in 1998 can play World of Warcraft.
Is WoW bad? No, not at all. We all enjoy a trip to McDonalds and grabbing a Number One value meal but if all we had was a Number One value meal and no real good resteraunts like the Outback, Ruth Kris STeakHouse, Hollywood Pizza Kitchen then our thirst and hunger for something REAL good and tasty would be lost forever.
Moral of the Story:
Just because you visit a place where Billions and Billions are served doesn't mean the food is great.
I am so tired of this "WoW only became succesful because of Warcraft." fallacy. At the time of WoW's release I had tried EQ2 and frankly it was a buggy piece of crap that took good pc's of the time and made them into slideshows. Sorry but people don't want to have their current hardware turned into a slide projector. People don't want to pay for a game and wait 6 months to 1 year for it to clean up all the bugs.
WoW became successful because it had fun game play and it just freaking worked !! Yes I know this concept is hard to grasp for the wow hating fanatics but FUN and STABLE WELL PERFORMING AND WORKING GAMES are what attract people period and their money. I tried the RTS Warcraft games and I never got into them at all. I was more then willing to give EQ2 it's chance but it failed miserably in the FUN FACTOR, PERFORMANCE FACTOR and STABILITY FACTOR at launch.
I was more then willing to give Vangaurd a try but it failed because it was a unstable, uncomplete grind fest that promised the world but delivered nothing that has not already been seen.
LOTRO never promised to revolutionize the MMO world. LOTRO has is STABILITY, PERFORMANCE and the FUN FACTOR and that IMHO is a true sign of a winner.
While I agree it is not the only reason, and yes WOW was very polished at release for an MMO, to discount the Warcraft IP is kind of ignorant. Blizzard had created a HUGE, very loyal fan base way before WOW...
As far as LOTR, being recently burned by Vanguard, I will take a wait and see approach. Plus the lack of true PVP, one of the big reasons I play MMOs, kind of kills it for me.
I agree that it seems light on classes. It is an issue of lore apparently.
Everything's an issue with the lore. It gets to be a huge pain, every suggestion shot down, by saying it's an issue with the lore. No wizard class, I understand, but where was the ember-throwing character from the books who's followed everywhere by a raven and bear? Was there no evidence for more than seven types of adventurer in Middle Earth? Every class in the game could have been divided into variations of the theme for a larger number of classes, without anything lore-breaking. Or given specialization options. Instead, they just wanted it simple. I don't think it has anything to do with the lore.
I think it's a great game, but this is probably by biggest gripe. Only seven classes, and no spec paths or anything. It feels cookie-cutter to an extreme. To make matters worse, even appearance options are really minimal. They claim to stick to the lore, but the lore must be getting defined by someone with a very narrow and biased view of it. It's more like the feel of the lore that they try to adhere so closely to, keeping a tight rein on the entire playerbase, but that's such a matter of interpretation in many areas.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Originally posted by ebcdic While I agree it is not the only reason, and yes WOW was very polished at release for an MMO, to discount the Warcraft IP is kind of ignorant. Blizzard had created a HUGE, very loyal fan base way before WOW...As far as LOTR, being recently burned by Vanguard, I will take a wait and see approach.
A large loyal fan base got Blizzard in the door, but it took a satisfying experience to make WoW explode the way it did. And having hundreds of thousands of beta testers, what a great way to suck them in. Of course they had to be willing to sign up in the first place and Blizzard had to be ready to handle them. All the stars aligned and everyone has been trying to imitate WoW since. But it seems like imitation is a mostly losing strategy.
I was very disappointed in Vanguard.
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
While I will agree that LoTR does not really bring anything new to the genre outside of Monster Play which is really a form of the Guildwars PvP, it is the same old fantasy hack and slash stuff.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
What you "uber leet" Dudes are missing is that the fun in these games is not great graphics, great crafting, or even a great combat engine. These older Gamers now want a solid game that offers convenience and the ability to play with other people to defeat a event or situation and grow your character.
LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy.
So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you.
I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
I agree very much with this. At this point in time (and in my life), I think LOTRO suits me quite well. I dont have 3-5 hours to dedicate per play session. I work full time, school part time, and have a family. When my little one goes to bed, I like to fire up an MMO and play for an hour or two to unwind before hitting the sack. I am certainly not looking for a second full time job, nor seeking to live my life via an MMO.
Yes, a lot of younger people play MMOs, but alot of older folk do as well. Gen X'ers. The ones who played MUDs via dial up or school network connection, moved to graphical MMOs. We seen many iterations of this genre. DnD PNP developed the basic mechanic for these games. The formulas seem to stay the same, and only the costumes and settings change.
Like I said, LOTRO seems to suit me fine for now. Would I like innovation? Definitely! I'll take something different. As long as it can hold my interest and stay fun. But, evolution is a slow process.
Another thing I realized, is that MMORPGs are my hobby. Some people collect trains, stamps, revamp old cars, build robots, etc. Me? I always seem to come back to MMOs for a hobby. Nothing wrong with that. But it does kind of suck having a hobby that can have nothing to show in the long term. IE - a huge "O Gauge" train layout that is worth a pretty penny. Something you can leave to your little one. But ahh well. Such are the times we live in and the choices we make.
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
I personally found LOTRO extremely boring, while I found WoW fun... for a while. I just didn't like the combat. Yes, the graphics were amazing, and the lore impeccable. But it just lacked a sparkle to its combat.
"Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and greatness should be waiting for us in our graves - or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth." Ayn Rand
While I will agree that LoTR does not really bring anything new to the genre outside of Monster Play which is really a form of the Guildwars PvP, it is the same old fantasy hack and slash stuff.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
What you "uber leet" Dudes are missing is that the fun in these games is not great graphics, great crafting, or even a great combat engine. These older Gamers now want a solid game that offers convenience and the ability to play with other people to defeat a event or situation and grow your character.
LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy.
So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you.
I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
I am a MMO veteran and that is the mark I, personally, gave LoTRo from my perspective. I have 'grown' enough characters in my gaming career and I no longer find the level-based character building MMO model entertaining, regardless if I can now do it in only 2 hours per day rather than 5.
As for the rest of your critique, I have no idea how you inferred so much from my post. I never mentioned graphics, features, social interaction, I did not make any sales predictions, nor did I claim to be an uber leet dude. In case you did not notice, I did give the game a B+ rating as a top end mark. The looks great and runs great but there is just nothing new and noteworthy about it to warrant me spending any time or money on it. For you or another MMO vet, your priorities might be different; I never said they weren't.
Glad u put this post up man i feel the same way iv been playing closed/open beta for a while and i like it but not enough to pre-order and play =( Games played:
WOW: 70 mage,60 mage, 61 shammy, 65 warrior
COX: lvl 35 scrapper lvl 20 MM
Guildwars: 20 w/m
LOTRO BETA: lvl 32 Dwarf guardian/ 15 hunter Currently playing: Battlefield 2142 Waiting on WAR/AOC
I agree with ya
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Think I qualify as an MMO vet, having played UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAOC, COH, SWG, EVE, and Vanguard, not to mention various F2P games, and trials I didn't stick with long enough to count, and anything I might be forgetting.
That said, I give LOTRO an A-
What it lacks in depth, it makes up for in style and ambience. I don't think I've ever played an MMO with a gameworld that feels as enjoyable to simply run around in. Yeah, the world is small compared to Middle Earth, but I'm actually finding it plenty big compared to other MMOs, even including Vanguard. If it weren't for the major lack of customization, I'd give it an even higher score.
I'm still looking forward to WAR, but now it's got a lot to live up to. Despite all the ways it'll probably be more interesting, I'm concerned it'll feel lackluster in comparison.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Torron: Go and tell my brother Bregor its time to leave middle earth.
Player: runs for 5 minutes to the next towm to find bregor.
Bregor: Tell my brother to stick it I aint leaving.
Player: runs all the way back 5 more minutes.
Torron: Go find this (item) and take it to him to remind him
Player: runs off to find item then back to bregor
Bregor: oh yeah well go find this (item) and takei t back to torron.
Rinse repeat ad infinitum.......
Sorry that may be what some of you consider entertainment but all I can say is fu*k that. I want my character advancement to be based on what skills I am trying to get better at. If I want to get better with my bow I should have to go out and shoot at stuff. If magic then casting spells not doing these lame run all over hell and back quests. To add insult to injury the run speed is sooo slow.
All of this stinks of time sink to me. Make it meaningful and sensible I say. Let me advance my character my way.
You just actually proved one of my points about LOTRO ; it's story based. This derisive 'example' of yours left nearly all of the story out of that plotline, one the major themes of the elves in ME. But that's not what you're after is it? You just want to go and kill things with your character and level up in an expedient way. And that's ok. LOTRO is NOT about that at all and what you need to do is find something more your playstyle, something like Ultima Online, Guild Wars, or Diablo II. And that doesn't mean LOTRO is a poor game.
I had the exact same reaction as you, though I would have been a little more diplomatic in my response, I really enjoyed the story line associated with that quest chain, and Starman obviously didn't get it....
LotRO is not going to redefine the genre. It's essentially WoW v 1.2, reskinned LotR style...with one big difference: it has a lot more emphasis on immersion and storytelling than WoW.
I you like lore, if you are the type that eagerly reads every word of yours quests, and if you enjoy story driven instances (think Caverns of Time WoW dudes), and/ or you are a big Tolkien geek, you'll probably like LotRO. If none of these things are true of you, then LotRO will seem like nothing but a bland WoW clone with less content. That's OK, it's not for you.
Two asides:
LotRO does actually have a proffession system. I'd say it's fairly well designed, but needs some serious tweaking before launch.
The monster play PvP system is actually pretty innovative, and happens to be a lot of fun imo.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I'm disappointed. The world isn't a good version of Middle-Earth. It's small, it's cramped, it's linear, and parts of it ugly. Characters all look the same, there is absolutely no uniqueness here, everyone has the same gear. It's almost as bad as GW
Besides that game is "OK". Nothing special really, I will have some fun with it, but my complaints will eventually probably make me want to quit after a while.
While I will agree that LoTR does not really bring anything new to the genre outside of Monster Play which is really a form of the Guildwars PvP, it is the same old fantasy hack and slash stuff.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
What you "uber leet" Dudes are missing is that the fun in these games is not great graphics, great crafting, or even a great combat engine. These older Gamers now want a solid game that offers convenience and the ability to play with other people to defeat a event or situation and grow your character.
LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy.
So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you.
I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
Hmm , c- at best and i played mmo s before they were massive all way back to lord and muds.
It has nothing , wow can provide the same junk.
as for
"It is amazing how many DAOC and UO vets play LOTRO right now. I have 2 kids and a hectic schedule already.. LOTRO doesn't add stress like other games did. I am not worried about missing something in game because of RL obligations, and not worried that I might just blow off RL obligations to do something in LOTRO."
Does wow for the first 70 levels ... not really unless you chose it too, which you could do with LotRO also....
But i hear ya i got so much work of late thats all i do, eves great for that so i switched over known id be cut down to 2 hours of play time a week, max; for a few months.
But not all mmo vets have no play time rate it on the game itself and not how it fits your play times, and it a c or c-.
And B+ is right on for the noobs, why its a good game , but wows still better and soon a ton of mmo will be comign out that offer much more.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
LotRO is a fun solid game , and the reviews will show it. If you are a known Vanguard Fan i'm just going to null and void your opinion on the game, cause envy just is a bad color on you .
Another thing I realized, is that MMORPGs are my hobby. Some people collect trains, stamps, revamp old cars, build robots, etc. Me? I always seem to come back to MMOs for a hobby. Nothing wrong with that. But it does kind of suck having a hobby that can have nothing to show in the long term. IE - a huge "O Gauge" train layout that is worth a pretty penny. Something you can leave to your little one. But ahh well. Such are the times we live in and the choices we make.
It's possibly easy to overlook that MMOs are an extension of RPGs, and underlying all of that is plain old story-telling. You may not be able to leave something tangible, but the stories many gamers can tell can be priceless to little people. I still have many things from my childhood, many people do. But among the things I treasure most are my memories of my mom telling me stories that she made up. She read to me too, which is also a cherised memory, but stories she made up just for me were something else again.
Little people don't care about latency, replayability, relative strengths and weaknesses between other games, etc; that comes later. They often just want someone to tell them a story, and many MMOs now offer hundreds or thousands of little stories, set out in convenient quest dialogue boxes, to tempt your imagination to new ideas for your own stories. You only need to see kids faces as they listen entralled to a good live storyteller at the library to know that as good as games or TV etc may be, nothing is ever quite like real storytelling, and MMOs and other story-based games can help to bring that out for people.
Comments
Plus the developers are are already working on more skills, for expansions as well as raising the level cap.
You guys forget how small some of your favorite mmo's started out because they been out for over 4 years or more. This is a brand new baby, and through the years it will grow and grow , like so many mmo's have done .
Someone was mentioning specs, if you noticed in your character panel, each class has 1 or 2 red numbers, that is your weakness, you use armors and weapons to change and tweak your characters specs. When you get into higher levels and when the 1 shot recipes start to drop, you will see a very diverse range of armors and weapons to help tweak out your character.
LotRO doesn't do things "directly" like with specs, or the classes definitions, people think a hunter is a Archer, like every other mmo, buzz wrong, the hunter is like a nuker, he deals major damage over short period of time, but instead of magic to nuke , he uses a bow. Things like this are being over looked by the people who already decided what they thought about the game before they even tried it.
who me ?
MMO newbie rating: B+
MMO veteran rating: C-
While I will agree that LoTR does not really bring anything new to the genre outside of Monster Play which is really a form of the Guildwars PvP, it is the same old fantasy hack and slash stuff.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
What you "uber leet" Dudes are missing is that the fun in these games is not great graphics, great crafting, or even a great combat engine. These older Gamers now want a solid game that offers convenience and the ability to play with other people to defeat a event or situation and grow your character.
LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy.
So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you.
I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
It is amazing how many DAOC and UO vets play LOTRO right now. I have 2 kids and a hectic schedule already.. LOTRO doesn't add stress like other games did. I am not worried about missing something in game because of RL obligations, and not worried that I might just blow off RL obligations to do something in LOTRO.
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psyconius Cthulhu
Gothika Studios
Ed Zachary...
Continuing on this thought, all of those games were freaking spectacular on paper, but the execution didn't quite pull it off.
It must be stressed that these games are still highly important in their ability to inspire things in other mainstream games. The innovative off-the-beaten-path games that end up being budget bin garbage are truly the pioneers of gaming theory, and other companies with bigger budgets/better programmers build on the original ideas.
Most people who
Precisely. My list was in no way meant to disparage these games. They are necessary. Heck, some of them I even found fun (and return to from time to time).
Any of you reading this who claim to want innovation need to put your money where your mouth is and support these games that are truly innovative.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
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I just read the MMORPG.com article about casual gaming. I mostly agree with the article and I can't say I disagree with what you are saying. But you can also do this with WoW. Yes LOTRO is new with a different local and classes, but I've matured to a point where I'm mostly looking for something new as in innovative in a MMO. I played WoW hardcore for 14 months and then took a year off. I recently started up new WoW characters with my wife and we are playing on a casual basis. So with any new MMO, I want something that will draw me in. Unfortunately LOTRO did not do this. My problem as others have mentioned is that LOTRO did not feel like what I thought it should feel like. It felt flat and the starter quests in the human and elf areas did nothing to draw me in. If I feel like it's WoW with new window dressing, that probably won't attract me.
I realize this is a dilemma but for any company starting a new MMO, dealing with players who have played several MMOs, at what point is slaying wolves or rats not going to seem repetitive to the player? I realize it is only the starter area, but instead of positive reinforcement, players are going to be feeling, oh this again... Unfortunately to be fair, you must invest substantial time into a new MMO to really evaluate it.
Which leads me to ask- should a new MMO starter area be enough to make a decision about a MMO's game play or should you give it say 3 months?
A MMO with a dynamic environment has the potential of wowing me (no pun intended) but are any of those in work? I've read that Hero's Journey was advertising dynamic quest chains, but who knows if that will ever see the light of day. Age of Conan looks interesting but is it mostly PvP?
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
WoW became extremly popular because of the series they had under the RTS genre. Nothing less and nothing more.
Sadly, the MMO world has digressed since then. Everything is modeled after WoW now because all the DEVs see is numbers of the subscribers and not the reason why WoW became so popular in the first place (which is because of the World of Warcraft history of RTS).
Every single MMO who tried to emulate Wow has failed. Every-single-one of them. Star Wars and the CU, Vanguard and its theories, etc; all of them. Why? Because they weren't WoW. They didnt develope a following like Blizzard did with World of Warcraft series, Starcraft, etc. MMO developers thinks is this or thinks it's that. But the reason is right there in front of their faces; its the Blizzard's name.
For the MMORPGers who have been playing MMOs long since before WoW was starting to experience the sand box world, the unrestricted form of adventuring, the elimination of that stupid treadmill system, we're beginning to loose all hope of what the direction of the MMO was heading towards.
World of Warcraft is like McDonalds. Its easy, its cheap and fast. Just like a poor person with a few nickels and a couple quarters can get a double cheeseburger, so can a person with a computer built in 1998 can play World of Warcraft.
Is WoW bad? No, not at all. We all enjoy a trip to McDonalds and grabbing a Number One value meal but if all we had was a Number One value meal and no real good resteraunts like the Outback, Ruth Kris STeakHouse, Hollywood Pizza Kitchen then our thirst and hunger for something REAL good and tasty would be lost forever.
Moral of the Story:
Just because you visit a place where Billions and Billions are served doesn't mean the food is great.
I am so tired of this "WoW only became succesful because of Warcraft." fallacy. At the time of WoW's release I had tried EQ2 and frankly it was a buggy piece of crap that took good pc's of the time and made them into slideshows. Sorry but people don't want to have their current hardware turned into a slide projector. People don't want to pay for a game and wait 6 months to 1 year for it to clean up all the bugs.
WoW became successful because it had fun game play and it just freaking worked !! Yes I know this concept is hard to grasp for the wow hating fanatics but FUN and STABLE WELL PERFORMING AND WORKING GAMES are what attract people period and their money. I tried the RTS Warcraft games and I never got into them at all. I was more then willing to give EQ2 it's chance but it failed miserably in the FUN FACTOR, PERFORMANCE FACTOR and STABILITY FACTOR at launch.
I was more then willing to give Vangaurd a try but it failed because it was a unstable, uncomplete grind fest that promised the world but delivered nothing that has not already been seen.
LOTRO never promised to revolutionize the MMO world. LOTRO has is STABILITY, PERFORMANCE and the FUN FACTOR and that IMHO is a true sign of a winner.
While I agree it is not the only reason, and yes WOW was very polished at release for an MMO, to discount the Warcraft IP is kind of ignorant. Blizzard had created a HUGE, very loyal fan base way before WOW...
As far as LOTR, being recently burned by Vanguard, I will take a wait and see approach. Plus the lack of true PVP, one of the big reasons I play MMOs, kind of kills it for me.
Everything's an issue with the lore. It gets to be a huge pain, every suggestion shot down, by saying it's an issue with the lore. No wizard class, I understand, but where was the ember-throwing character from the books who's followed everywhere by a raven and bear? Was there no evidence for more than seven types of adventurer in Middle Earth? Every class in the game could have been divided into variations of the theme for a larger number of classes, without anything lore-breaking. Or given specialization options. Instead, they just wanted it simple. I don't think it has anything to do with the lore.
I think it's a great game, but this is probably by biggest gripe. Only seven classes, and no spec paths or anything. It feels cookie-cutter to an extreme. To make matters worse, even appearance options are really minimal. They claim to stick to the lore, but the lore must be getting defined by someone with a very narrow and biased view of it. It's more like the feel of the lore that they try to adhere so closely to, keeping a tight rein on the entire playerbase, but that's such a matter of interpretation in many areas.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
A large loyal fan base got Blizzard in the door, but it took a satisfying experience to make WoW explode the way it did. And having hundreds of thousands of beta testers, what a great way to suck them in.
Of course they had to be willing to sign up in the first place and Blizzard had to be ready to handle them. All the stars aligned and everyone has been trying to imitate WoW since. But it seems like imitation is a mostly losing strategy.
I was very disappointed in Vanguard.
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
While I will agree that LoTR does not really bring anything new to the genre outside of Monster Play which is really a form of the Guildwars PvP, it is the same old fantasy hack and slash stuff.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
What you "uber leet" Dudes are missing is that the fun in these games is not great graphics, great crafting, or even a great combat engine. These older Gamers now want a solid game that offers convenience and the ability to play with other people to defeat a event or situation and grow your character.
LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy.
So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you.
I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
I agree very much with this. At this point in time (and in my life), I think LOTRO suits me quite well. I dont have 3-5 hours to dedicate per play session. I work full time, school part time, and have a family. When my little one goes to bed, I like to fire up an MMO and play for an hour or two to unwind before hitting the sack. I am certainly not looking for a second full time job, nor seeking to live my life via an MMO.
Yes, a lot of younger people play MMOs, but alot of older folk do as well. Gen X'ers. The ones who played MUDs via dial up or school network connection, moved to graphical MMOs. We seen many iterations of this genre. DnD PNP developed the basic mechanic for these games. The formulas seem to stay the same, and only the costumes and settings change.
Like I said, LOTRO seems to suit me fine for now. Would I like innovation? Definitely! I'll take something different. As long as it can hold my interest and stay fun. But, evolution is a slow process.
Another thing I realized, is that MMORPGs are my hobby. Some people collect trains, stamps, revamp old cars, build robots, etc. Me? I always seem to come back to MMOs for a hobby. Nothing wrong with that. But it does kind of suck having a hobby that can have nothing to show in the long term. IE - a huge "O Gauge" train layout that is worth a pretty penny. Something you can leave to your little one. But ahh well. Such are the times we live in and the choices we make.
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
"Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and greatness should be waiting for us in our graves - or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth." Ayn Rand
Glad u put this post up man i feel the same way iv been playing closed/open beta for a while and i like it but not enough to pre-order and play =(
Games played:
WOW: 70 mage,60 mage, 61 shammy, 65 warrior
COX: lvl 35 scrapper lvl 20 MM
Guildwars: 20 w/m
LOTRO BETA: lvl 32 Dwarf guardian/ 15 hunter
Currently playing: Battlefield 2142
Waiting on WAR/AOC
LAWZIOWN3dYAINTEHFAACE
While I will agree that LoTR does not really bring anything new to the genre outside of Monster Play which is really a form of the Guildwars PvP, it is the same old fantasy hack and slash stuff.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
What you "uber leet" Dudes are missing is that the fun in these games is not great graphics, great crafting, or even a great combat engine. These older Gamers now want a solid game that offers convenience and the ability to play with other people to defeat a event or situation and grow your character.
LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy.
So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you.
I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
I am a MMO veteran and that is the mark I, personally, gave LoTRo from my perspective. I have 'grown' enough characters in my gaming career and I no longer find the level-based character building MMO model entertaining, regardless if I can now do it in only 2 hours per day rather than 5.As for the rest of your critique, I have no idea how you inferred so much from my post. I never mentioned graphics, features, social interaction, I did not make any sales predictions, nor did I claim to be an uber leet dude. In case you did not notice, I did give the game a B+ rating as a top end mark. The looks great and runs great but there is just nothing new and noteworthy about it to warrant me spending any time or money on it. For you or another MMO vet, your priorities might be different; I never said they weren't.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
That said, I give LOTRO an A-
What it lacks in depth, it makes up for in style and ambience. I don't think I've ever played an MMO with a gameworld that feels as enjoyable to simply run around in. Yeah, the world is small compared to Middle Earth, but I'm actually finding it plenty big compared to other MMOs, even including Vanguard. If it weren't for the major lack of customization, I'd give it an even higher score.
I'm still looking forward to WAR, but now it's got a lot to live up to. Despite all the ways it'll probably be more interesting, I'm concerned it'll feel lackluster in comparison.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I had the exact same reaction as you, though I would have been a little more diplomatic in my response, I really enjoyed the story line associated with that quest chain, and Starman obviously didn't get it....
LotRO is not going to redefine the genre. It's essentially WoW v 1.2, reskinned LotR style...with one big difference: it has a lot more emphasis on immersion and storytelling than WoW.
I you like lore, if you are the type that eagerly reads every word of yours quests, and if you enjoy story driven instances (think Caverns of Time WoW dudes), and/ or you are a big Tolkien geek, you'll probably like LotRO. If none of these things are true of you, then LotRO will seem like nothing but a bland WoW clone with less content. That's OK, it's not for you.
Two asides:
LotRO does actually have a proffession system. I'd say it's fairly well designed, but needs some serious tweaking before launch.
The monster play PvP system is actually pretty innovative, and happens to be a lot of fun imo.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Besides that game is "OK". Nothing special really, I will have some fun with it, but my complaints will eventually probably make me want to quit after a while.
While I will agree that LoTR does not really bring anything new to the genre outside of Monster Play which is really a form of the Guildwars PvP, it is the same old fantasy hack and slash stuff.
I disagree that MMO veterans would give it such a low mark. The people I have been playing with in the game are older Gamers who played EQ1, UO, etc. They have grown up and have kids, jobs, mortgages, and very little free time to play. Not many people can play one of these games more than 2-3 hours day for a few days/week outside of those who are unemployed, under-employed, or in college (with a easy class schedule).
What you "uber leet" Dudes are missing is that the fun in these games is not great graphics, great crafting, or even a great combat engine. These older Gamers now want a solid game that offers convenience and the ability to play with other people to defeat a event or situation and grow your character.
LoTR is the type of game that you can login to at the end of your work day. Get a quick group, go into instanced gameplay, and have a good time. You can then log off and get ready for work the next day. There are tons of people in the game so grouping is easy to get and the quest series make it even more easy.
So it is not about the best features that make the best MMO. It is about an MMO that allows easy interaction with other people and of course is stable and offers good performance on the average computer. That is what you remember in these games. You remember your interaction with other people. Not that you have a massive game world or have a long, tedious grind, or you can solo a MOB 3 levels above you.
I don't think LoTR will be as big as WoW but I think it will have about a million people as it's Subscriber base. These will not just be N00bs to MMOS but a lot of Veteran Players as well.
Hmm , c- at best and i played mmo s before they were massiveIt has nothing , wow can provide the same junk.
as for
"It is amazing how many DAOC and UO vets play LOTRO right now. I have 2 kids and a hectic schedule already.. LOTRO doesn't add stress like other games did. I am not worried about missing something in game because of RL obligations, and not worried that I might just blow off RL obligations to do something in LOTRO."
Does wow for the first 70 levels ... not really unless you chose it too, which you could do with LotRO also....
But i hear ya i got so much work of late thats all i do, eves great for that so i switched over known id be cut down to 2 hours of play time a week, max; for a few months.
But not all mmo vets have no play time rate it on the game itself and not how it fits your play times, and it a c or c-.
And B+ is right on for the noobs, why its a good game , but wows still better and soon a ton of mmo will be comign out that offer much more.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
who me ?
Little people don't care about latency, replayability, relative strengths and weaknesses between other games, etc; that comes later. They often just want someone to tell them a story, and many MMOs now offer hundreds or thousands of little stories, set out in convenient quest dialogue boxes, to tempt your imagination to new ideas for your own stories. You only need to see kids faces as they listen entralled to a good live storyteller at the library to know that as good as games or TV etc may be, nothing is ever quite like real storytelling, and MMOs and other story-based games can help to bring that out for people.
Flute.