I think it is safe to say, even if you played the game for two years, but haven't played it within the last 6 months you are in no position to claim you know anything about this game. The game is updated constantly and changed greatly all the time. I have played this game for 3 years straight, still play it. Last time l logged in was yesterday. What I can tell you is you blow it way out of proportion. There isn't bots running around everywhere.
Like I said there is no difference. The most popular games have the most farmers and bots. It is simple, it's a multi billion dollar industry, and right now more than half of that is supplied off of WoW. WoW is the most popular game in the world, housing the most farmers/bots and L2 is the second most popular, housing the second most amount of bots and farmers. The difference is WoW's glider bot is more sophisticated than L2walker, meaning it is harder to realize a bot when you see one. And WoW's bots like to hide where no one can see them.
So basically, this is a pointless conversation. When there is money to be made there will be people who exploit. ALL big MMO's have a bot problem. You can say L2 is the worst, but it isn't in my opinion; people are just oblivious to the bots in the game they play...
If I wanted to I could run 5 glider bots for WoW for over a year and probally still not get banned, as long as I stay in farming the instances. I would make better money too...
I can't claim to know anything about the game? Soo... having fought Antharas, participated in many sieges and clan-wars and raids... having leveled a couple characters up to the higher levels and spent more than a fair amount of time hunting in Cats, doing the Seven Signs... suddenly all that means nothing? They've somehow, in the past 6 months, completely changed the game so drastically that I wouldn't recognize it?
I kinda doubt it.
And, seriously, I think it's common-knowledge by now that arguments such as yours "if you aren't playing" or "haven't played in the past 6 months..." are empty, baseless and ultimately failing attempts to try and dismiss opinions you don't agree with, but can't come back with any solid contradicting evidence yourself. Which you demonstrated in your post.
As for "WoW is worse", well, now you guys have a new way to dismiss or downplay the botting problems in LII. Before WoW came out, people would just deny it altogether.
Allow me to clarify my point again...
In WoW the bots can hide in instances - this much has been stated, by myself and others. For this reason, they are not a direct impedence to legit players trying to play the game. Why? Because they aren't swarming the areas, monopolizing the mobs the way they do and have in LII. I have *never* in my time playing WoW been prevented or slowed down from completing a task, or hunting in any given area because of tribes of similarly configured, similarly armored dwarves with names like "KPKPQNJK" running around out in the open. Not once. Yet, in many areas of LII, I dealt with them on a regular basis, and reported them many times.
Not once in WoW did I ever have to clear an area of botters/rmt just so I and my party can actually xp and get loot drops there. In LII it was part of the routine of leveling in a Cat/Necro.
Not once in WoW did I ever see the community dependent on the botters/farmers monopolizing a key game system as a way to keep their money rolling in to sell. In Lineage II, as I've said, the botters monopolized the manor system. It was a stroke of blind luck to be able to get your fruit turn-in because they had their scripts running and could always submit faster than a human could by hand. It was to a point where a portion of the player base actually got pissed off at NCSoft for getting rid of the botters, thus "forcing" the players to get their own materials to craft with. Prices skyrocketed and it was insane - until more botters came in and everything settled down again; everything was "back to normal".
Are there more botters in WoW? I'm sure there are. I never debated that. Are they the nuisance they are in Lineage II? Nope. Not even close. And again, at least Blizzard makes an effort to deal with them on a monthly basis. NCSoft, at best, seems to make a serious effort once every Chronicle.
Please, do not tell me these things don't or never happened. And as for the whole idea of "things have changed drastically in the past 6 months" - apparently the botting hasn't, because i've seen people discussing the issue as recently as a few days ago and it sounds like it's no different than before.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I gotta say.. In all the MMOs I've played I've seen the following points come up quite often:
"All MMOs have a grind.. it's really not that bad. But if you can't handle it, then don't play"
"All PvP MMOs have PKers and Gankers... it's the nature of the game. If you can't handle it, then this might not be the game for you".
... and so on.
In over 26 MMOs I've played - non-instanced and instanced alike, Lineage II is the only MMO I've ever played where the players have become so resigned to the existence of bots that they would actually use suggestions like the above.
But I noticed this even while I was playing LII. There was a major bot-banning at one point and the community freaked. Suddenly, for a time, bots weren't controlling the manor system and players couldn't turn to them to simply purchase what they needed. Prices skyrocketed. I remember posts in the official forums by people *angry* that NC banned them for that reason.
I'm completely serious.. I have never seen the kind of acceptance or, as explained above, support, of botters/farmers in any other MMO as I've seen in LII.
One of the reasons why I'm so damn glad I finally got away from it. Keep thinking once in a while I might like to pick it up again to see how it is now.. which usually brings me to these forums to see what's new.. Then reading threads such as this just brings all the memories back.. Not to mention all the drama.
And I've been in the same position as a previous poster with reporting the bots. Only I reported them, consistently, over 3 weeks. They were never dealt with 'til after the 4th week. A week later, a whole new group was swarming the hills around DEV and inside DEV itself. Wash, rinse repeat.
I'm not going to presume that many here have never played another MMO to use as comparison.. but I really have to wonder when I see how resigned to the botting/rmt issue some people are - especially when companies like SE posts bannings in the 10s of thousands in Final Fantasy XI on a monthly basis and have a task team dedicated to nothing *but* dealing with them; they take the issue very seriously and are very visibly on top of it. Not ony in the numbers they post, but by way of the economy... I cannot believe how under control the economy is in that game in the months since they implemented the RMT task force. Perhaps NC would benefit from a similar stance? And, from what I've seen first-hand in-game and since I've left.. I have a very hard time believing they take it very seriously at all - other than for the occasional PR when they're putting out a new expansion and want to make a good impression on new players.
What ever your threshold or level of acceptance of the botting problem (and it *is* a problem - even if not for you personally)... LII is one of the poster children of rmt-botting gone mad in the MMO industry. I don't care what MMO I go to, when ever the name Lineage II comes up it's most always in a forum about either botting or grinding.
Ok I've spent the time to read your post... I have the following observations.
Is it the game itself or the way certain players of the community have chosen to play the game ? I tend to think its the latter from your post ... Wouldn't it be better then to say that you did not have the playing experience which you expected rather than to trash the game ?
WRT the historical aspects you are highly presumtious in generalising that ppl just gave in to farmers and bots. You have not indicated the server where you played nor mentioned whether you belonged to any particular clan or alliance, so I cannot debate this aspect of your post. Whilst you are more than entitled to give your "view" of the game try to at least distil fact from opinion...
From my perspective, Kain, the server which I play on, is reknowned for PvP and Politics never gave into the bots despite various rants and raves on the boards. The bots simply moved to where the players were not. Just about every clan and alliance conducted bot purges and many areas of the world were on "lockdown" by one alliance or another. I myself have participated in wholescale purges of the Tower of Insolence throughout C2. Did the farmers come back ? Yes. Did they bother us or interfere with our enjoyment of the game ? No.
In my opinion L2's reputation had more to do with the lack of effective advertising and marketting by NCSoft leaving a vaccum for players who wanted to find out about the game. In the absence of fact, opinons quickly became gospel and those who were able to rant insistently enough on the various boards either browbeat the community to their point of view or thoroughly mislead anyone not fully conversant with the realities of the game.
Secondly, if you are so MMO savvy, then as Santa points out why did you bother petitioning ?
Why did you not just call your clan together and kill the bots ? Thats what every other clan on Kain did... They either tried and succeeded or tried and died. Pre C2 death was far more prevalent as it took players quite a few months not only to level up on par with the farmers but also to generate sufficient resources and equipment to fight them effectively. These days as Santa points out I'd like to see the farmers try to take on some of the high level clans...
Petitioning in L2 is basically to report bugs and game engine related issues. It is not there to resolve player issues like it was in EQ1 for example. If you're not sure as to what or how to petition have a read on the official boards which outline it quite succinctly.
In the same manner as your opnening paragraph choses to discard the opinions of others who have played L2 extensively based on the 26 MMOs which you have played, I reiterate the point, where specifically in terms of the game engine does L2 fall behind its competitors ? (With the one caveat that we all understand the different philosophy in game design between wester and eastern developers).
I don't believe you can compare L2's philosophy to EQ1 or DAOC or Shadowbane. I will not bother mentioning WoW or EQ2 as both of these games are probably diametrically opposed to L2's philosophy.
Whilst games like EQ1 forced you to group directly through the desing of the game engine, L2 does so by its manipulation of the XP curve. EQ1 was much criticised and it slowly modified itself to suit its players. Too little too late, but its successors like DAOC, WoW and EQ2 took careful note of this fact. This is why the content features so much focus on the individual. Be it through quests, ease of progression or trivial rewards the games are far more focused to catering to the individual that to the group.
This is the main difference between those games and L2.
L2 caters to groups. It is the individuals who cannot conform to this social requirement, that go on to bot, e-bay, cheat, rant and rave complaining what could have been or should have been.
There is not simple solution. After 3 years the game is what it is. Your choices are to play or not .
I gotta say.. In all the MMOs I've played I've seen the following points come up quite often:
"All MMOs have a grind.. it's really not that bad. But if you can't handle it, then don't play"
"All PvP MMOs have PKers and Gankers... it's the nature of the game. If you can't handle it, then this might not be the game for you".
... and so on.
In over 26 MMOs I've played - non-instanced and instanced alike, Lineage II is the only MMO I've ever played where the players have become so resigned to the existence of bots that they would actually use suggestions like the above.
But I noticed this even while I was playing LII. There was a major bot-banning at one point and the community freaked. Suddenly, for a time, bots weren't controlling the manor system and players couldn't turn to them to simply purchase what they needed. Prices skyrocketed. I remember posts in the official forums by people *angry* that NC banned them for that reason.
I'm completely serious.. I have never seen the kind of acceptance or, as explained above, support, of botters/farmers in any other MMO as I've seen in LII.
One of the reasons why I'm so damn glad I finally got away from it. Keep thinking once in a while I might like to pick it up again to see how it is now.. which usually brings me to these forums to see what's new.. Then reading threads such as this just brings all the memories back.. Not to mention all the drama.
And I've been in the same position as a previous poster with reporting the bots. Only I reported them, consistently, over 3 weeks. They were never dealt with 'til after the 4th week. A week later, a whole new group was swarming the hills around DEV and inside DEV itself. Wash, rinse repeat.
I'm not going to presume that many here have never played another MMO to use as comparison.. but I really have to wonder when I see how resigned to the botting/rmt issue some people are - especially when companies like SE posts bannings in the 10s of thousands in Final Fantasy XI on a monthly basis and have a task team dedicated to nothing *but* dealing with them; they take the issue very seriously and are very visibly on top of it. Not ony in the numbers they post, but by way of the economy... I cannot believe how under control the economy is in that game in the months since they implemented the RMT task force. Perhaps NC would benefit from a similar stance? And, from what I've seen first-hand in-game and since I've left.. I have a very hard time believing they take it very seriously at all - other than for the occasional PR when they're putting out a new expansion and want to make a good impression on new players.
What ever your threshold or level of acceptance of the botting problem (and it *is* a problem - even if not for you personally)... LII is one of the poster children of rmt-botting gone mad in the MMO industry. I don't care what MMO I go to, when ever the name Lineage II comes up it's most always in a forum about either botting or grinding.
Ok I've spent the time to read your post... I have the following observations.
Is it the game itself or the way certain players of the community have chosen to play the game ? I tend to think its the latter from your post ... Wouldn't it be better then to say that you did not have the playing experience which you expected rather than to trash the game ?
WRT the historical aspects you are highly presumtious in generalising that ppl just gave in to farmers and bots. You have not indicated the server where you played nor mentioned whether you belonged to any particular clan or alliance, so I cannot debate this aspect of your post. Whilst you are more than entitled to give your "view" of the game try to at least distil fact from opinion...
From my perspective, Kain, the server which I play on, is reknowned for PvP and Politics never gave into the bots despite various rants and raves on the boards. The bots simply moved to where the players were not. Just about every clan and alliance conducted bot purges and many areas of the world were on "lockdown" by one alliance or another. I myself have participated in wholescale purges of the Tower of Insolence throughout C2. Did the farmers come back ? Yes. Did they bother us or interfere with our enjoyment of the game ? No.
In my opinion L2's reputation had more to do with the lack of effective advertising and marketting by NCSoft leaving a vaccum for players who wanted to find out about the game. In the absence of fact, opinons quickly became gospel and those who were able to rant insistently enough on the various boards either browbeat the community to their point of view or thoroughly mislead anyone not fully conversant with the realities of the game.
Secondly, if you are so MMO savvy, then as Santa points out why did you bother petitioning ?
Why did you not just call your clan together and kill the bots ? Thats what every other clan on Kain did... They either tried and succeeded or tried and died. Pre C2 death was far more prevalent as it took players quite a few months not only to level up on par with the farmers but also to generate sufficient resources and equipment to fight them effectively. These days as Santa points out I'd like to see the farmers try to take on some of the high level clans...
Petitioning in L2 is basically to report bugs and game engine related issues. It is not there to resolve player issues like it was in EQ1 for example. If you're not sure as to what or how to petition have a read on the official boards which outline it quite succinctly.
In the same manner as your opnening paragraph choses to discard the opinions of others who have played L2 extensively based on the 26 MMOs which you have played, I reiterate the point, where specifically in terms of the game engine does L2 fall behind its competitors ? (With the one caveat that we all understand the different philosophy in game design between wester and eastern developers).
I don't believe you can compare L2's philosophy to EQ1 or DAOC or Shadowbane. I will not bother mentioning WoW or EQ2 as both of these games are probably diametrically opposed to L2's philosophy.
Whilst games like EQ1 forced you to group directly through the desing of the game engine, L2 does so by its manipulation of the XP curve. EQ1 was much criticised and it slowly modified itself to suit its players. Too little too late, but its successors like DAOC, WoW and EQ2 took careful note of this fact. This is why the content features so much focus on the individual. Be it through quests, ease of progression or trivial rewards the games are far more focused to catering to the individual that to the group.
This is the main difference between those games and L2.
L2 caters to groups. It is the individuals who cannot conform to this social requirement, that go on to bot, e-bay, cheat, rant and rave complaining what could have been or should have been.
There is not simple solution. After 3 years the game is what it is. Your choices are to play or not .
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
7X Eva's Templar
Kain
My main beef is with people who play Lineage II (some - not all) insisting that the farming/botting/rmt isn't out-of-hand.
Whether I chose to deal with them or not (I did plenty of bot PK'ing in my time before it got old and annoying) or how I chose to has nothing to do with it.
What clans/allies I was in or what server I played on is also completely irrelevant. What's the difference? But for the record, I was on Hindemith as my main and had other toons on a couple other servers, just to play when Hinde was down. The most notable clan I was in was Divine. Again, not that any of that gives any more validity to my points - but if that's the ultimate qualifier for you, then there ya go. Have your cookie.
Whether or not NCSoft does a good job of dealing with the problem (and in my experience, they're half a notch above abysmal) has nothing to do with it.
My point is - Lineage II is widely known as being synonymous with "grind" and "botting". It has earned this reputation by - at least where botting is concerned - being just that.
Don't take my word for it - go look at the community forums for other MMOs. Talk to people who play other MMOs who've left LII for either or both of those two reasons. The numbers can't be denied - yet there are people who persist in doing so.
To say "well all MMOs have botters" is pointless... No one's saying they don't. They're just saying LII has it worse than any other that most people will have played.
To say "well, WoW has more players and therefor has more bots" is, again.. common sense on its face. But as an argument that LII doesn't have one of the worst botting problems in the MMO scene is plain disingenuous, especially *if* and when you put it in the context I've framed it:
The botters/farmers do their business where in WoW? In instances, right? If they're in instances, can they be impeding with or monopolizing an area other players are attempting to play in? No. They can't.
The botters/farmers do their business where in LII? In the Cats/Necros. I've seen them in Cruma Tower, in ToI, all over the place in the swamplands near DEV... They practically owned EV... and numerous other places. When it is common practice to clear an area of said farmers/botters before a party can xp there, it's rather difficult - except replace difficult with impossible - to claim they don't exist or that they aren't a nuisance. Perhaps not a nuisance to those who've come to accept them as a normal part of the game, but a nuisance nonetheless. Come on... the botting is to the point in LII that many people believe and have theorized that NCSoft is in league with them, if not running some of them themselves. Where the hell does that come from if they're not a problem?
By contrast.. I couldn't tell you of a single incident that I could spot a verifiable botter/rmt'er in WoW... and I saw plenty of that game as well. They never once impeded with my playtime in any way, shape or form. I've seldom seen a specific botter/rmt'er in FFXI that was still there more than a week later.
As for why didn't I petition? I petitioned *constantly*. As I said in an earlier post, I petitioned one group for at least 3 weeks straight without seeing anything happen to them.. I know because I actually wrote down the "name" of one of them.
I am not discrediting the opinions of others I disagree with. I'm merely telling the people who want to insist that botting/rmt isn't a real problem in LII that they're full of it.
Why do I debate the botting issue on this game? The same reason I debate botting/rmt in any game I've played - present or past - because it's a problem that effects all of them.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The bot population density is not as bad as one year ago, but that doesn't say any good about it, really... specially since back then it was a pathetic circus of grotesque proportions. The only thing you can do about it is see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. If you think different then go play sims life because L2 is not for you and ncsoftNA will not get their act together as they have the worst support ever. Now it's too late, since most population are already high levels with subclasses and lots of adena. Players in ncsoft's servers couldn't care less about the bots and the economy after all what they have endured.
WSI, let me rephrase it. You probally do know alot about the game, or did, such as things as antharas or general game play mechanics etc. But you do not know the CURRENT state of the game. I was there when bots have been running around all over and it was impossible to hunt, but it just isn't the case anymore.
NCsoft has banned loads of bots. The only bots you will generally see are "new" bots in areas below lvl 50 and 40. A bot can reach level 50 in about 3 days; and still it isn't as thick as it once was. The only places u see them are starter towns, usually de leveling, or some lower level catacombs. It is easy to kill bots in catacombs. Within the past year I could never not hunt somewhere because of farmers/bots; this is why I think your argument is very thin. You are arguing to players who currently play the game about the condition that the game is in when you urself do not play it anymore. Besides NCsoft is banning tons of bots, there just isn't such a big business anymore in L2. Farmers make the largest amount of money off of new players. L2 isn't getting tons of new players, most players are now established and working within the market, meaning there is little need for RMT.
Duno these posts pop up all the time, and there is always someone from another game that used to play L2 that comes and acts like they know what is going on.
I am not saying you don't know nothing about the game, you just know nothing about the current state of the game. It's ok tho, for me it is a game, I play it cause I like it. I choose it because I think it is better than all the other MMOs out there, but I understand it's problems although not unique to just L2. I too hope that L3 will be better designed to deter the RMT and farmer/bot markets.
WSI, let me rephrase it. You probally do know alot about the game, or did, such as things as antharas or general game play mechanics etc. But you do not know the CURRENT state of the game. I was there when bots have been running around all over and it was impossible to hunt, but it just isn't the case anymore.
NCsoft has banned loads of bots. The only bots you will generally see are "new" bots in areas below lvl 50 and 40. A bot can reach level 50 in about 3 days; and still it isn't as thick as it once was. The only places u see them are starter towns, usually de leveling, or some lower level catacombs. It is easy to kill bots in catacombs. Within the past year I could never not hunt somewhere because of farmers/bots; this is why I think your argument is very thin. You are arguing to players who currently play the game about the condition that the game is in when you urself do not play it anymore. Besides NCsoft is banning tons of bots, there just isn't such a big business anymore in L2. Farmers make the largest amount of money off of new players. L2 isn't getting tons of new players, most players are now established and working within the market, meaning there is little need for RMT.
Duno these posts pop up all the time, and there is always someone from another game that used to play L2 that comes and acts like they know what is going on.
I am not saying you don't know nothing about the game, you just know nothing about the current state of the game. It's ok tho, for me it is a game, I play it cause I like it. I choose it because I think it is better than all the other MMOs out there, but I understand it's problems although not unique to just L2. I too hope that L3 will be better designed to deter the RMT and farmer/bot markets.
Fair enough. I don't know how things are right this moment. However... in all the threads I've read by numerous people who are either still playing or who have recently left, the situation doesn't sound very different than from when I last played. Some of the comments and descriptions are exactly what I saw when I last played. I don't think it can be all *that* different.
I know NCSoft occasionally does these mass bannings. They did them while I was playing and for a while you didn't see nearly as many bots as there had been. But, in a matter of time, they were back full-force.
And really, to condone a mentality of "They're really only in the lower level areas, so they're not really the problem they used to be to the existing players"... I don't know, that seems a bit.. umm... don't want to say "elitist".. but it rings of a very "Well, it don't affect me personally, so why should I care?" attitude. If they're a problem to *anyone* at any level.. they're a problem. And if they're *anything* like they were in and around DEV when I last played.. then it's still a pretty big problem. I couldn't go after a single mob in those areas without having to beat as many as 3 bots to it.
If few new players are coming into the game, then that's a problem - especially right after NCSoft has relaunched a Retail boxed version... which is, I'm sure, not coincidental with the timing of this latest round of bannings. Smells of PR to me. And, hey.. I'm all for bannings of any type. A one-off example is nice.. but not definitive. If they continue with these bannings on a regular - say, monthly - basis.. then great! And it's about time. I just don't have that much faith in them to follow up that persistently. I'd love to be wrong though.
I might actually consider re-upping my account if htat were the case. Really intrigued by some of what I've seen abou tthe last couple updates. But not enough to re-up and deal with that crap again.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If you thought it elitist then I would encourage you to go and reread what my point is. My point is, they are in low level areas because that is where you start, and rarely get into high level areas because NCsoft bans them before than. 3 days isn't that long, esspecially when every time you ban a bot it has a high probability of comming back, because the bot/farmer doesn't care about it's character it cares about the virtual worth of what he farmed, of course unless he is selling the character, and all that stuff is transfered daily to a clean account. Bots are like weeds...
They do mass bannings about twice a month, both SUPER cheating players and farmers alike that overuse a bot program get banned.
Your still gonna see bots though. But really people blow it way outa proportion. It is not like it was back in C3 and the end of C2 where it was rampant.
People are entitled to their opinions though, some people think one cheater is too much, whereas I think that philosophy is unrealistic.
No offense, for the most part, no I didn't read your post. Both of them are overly lengthy. That year you played had to be WAY back when prelude C1 was out. Why do I say this? Again, I was there, I remember that era. I would have whole heartly agreed with you back then. I just resubed and Im sorry but I can see just fine with my own eyes. It's NOTHING like it was before. So if you're not playing then why bother crying about something you cant see in essay form? Go play something else. <shrugs>
No offense, but if you're not going to read my posts, you have no right responding to them.
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor.
No offense, for the most part, no I didn't read your post. Both of them are overly lengthy. That year you played had to be WAY back when prelude C1 was out. Why do I say this? Again, I was there, I remember that era. I would have whole heartly agreed with you back then. I just resubed and Im sorry but I can see just fine with my own eyes. It's NOTHING like it was before. So if you're not playing then why bother crying about something you cant see in essay form? Go play something else. <shrugs>
No offense, but if you're not going to read my posts, you have no right responding to them.
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor. and your an idiot
Most low lvl bots seems to hang out in the Darkelf area's not sure why maybe they's better spoils there or something, but theys less bots in the other starter area's.
Anyway the game is still filled with farmers and players who bots, off course all games has bots, but l2 is just so much worse when ncsoft dosen't care much, i guess its hard to figure out who's right on theese forums.
So if you start to play the game, you notice all the bots and that most off the player base dosen't care about it either anymore...
If you thought it elitist then I would encourage you to go and reread what my point is. My point is, they are in low level areas because that is where you start, and rarely get into high level areas because NCsoft bans them before than. 3 days isn't that long, esspecially when every time you ban a bot it has a high probability of comming back, because the bot/farmer doesn't care about it's character it cares about the virtual worth of what he farmed, of course unless he is selling the character, and all that stuff is transfered daily to a clean account. Bots are like weeds...
They do mass bannings about twice a month, both SUPER cheating players and farmers alike that overuse a bot program get banned.
Your still gonna see bots though. But really people blow it way outa proportion. It is not like it was back in C3 and the end of C2 where it was rampant.
People are entitled to their opinions though, some people think one cheater is too much, whereas I think that philosophy is unrealistic.
If you go back and read what I said... I said I don't want to say "elitist" - because I know that wasn't the right term. If I meant to say elitist.. I would have.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No offense, for the most part, no I didn't read your post. Both of them are overly lengthy. That year you played had to be WAY back when prelude C1 was out. Why do I say this? Again, I was there, I remember that era. I would have whole heartly agreed with you back then. I just resubed and Im sorry but I can see just fine with my own eyes. It's NOTHING like it was before. So if you're not playing then why bother crying about something you cant see in essay form? Go play something else. <shrugs>
No offense, but if you're not going to read my posts, you have no right responding to them.
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor. and your an idiot
Wow. Wait a moment... Let me re-read what you said there...
Yep.. I read it right.
So, let me get this straight. You called me out on an assumption proving you didn't know what you were talking about... (that I'd only played in Prelude.. when I'd noted having played areas of the game that didn't come out 'til C3... in case you conveniently forgot) and *I'm* an idiot? Wow. That's rich.
Most low lvl bots seems to hang out in the Darkelf area's not sure why maybe they's better spoils there or something, but theys less bots in the other starter area's.
Anyway the game is still filled with farmers and players who bots, off course all games has bots, but l2 is just so much worse when ncsoft dosen't care much, i guess its hard to figure out who's right on theese forums.
So if you start to play the game, you notice all the bots and that most off the player base dosen't care about it either anymore...
Exactly.
Though it is funny how when people find out you don't play anymore, suddenly things in the game are totally different... and you obviously can't comment because you're not even playing. Months or years of precedence, of seeing things run exactly the same way in the time you *did* play means nothing. Everything did a 180 almost as soon as you left.
I've seen this several times before with other MMOs. It happened once with Ryzom. I was playing and got sick of the lack of content. I left. I'd check back on the forums from time to time and ask about the state of the game, saying how it had bored me to tears before. Soon as the faithful found out I wasn't playing for a few months, "Oh it's nothing like that anymore.. they've added so much more to it. It's so much more interesting now. You really can't talk since you haven't played in a while". So I said, okay.. let me try it again. Re-upped my account.. bam... it was exactly as it was when I'd left. People were doing the same exact stuff they were when I'd left. Nothing had changed.
In the end, people love using the plausible deniability card to defend "their" game. "You're not playing, so you don't know".
Do I think there might be an improvement in the botting in L2? I would hope so, because it was pretty damn abysmal when I left. Do I believe it's as much improved as some claim? Hmm... I have my doubts. I'm pretty sure if I went back to any of the common areas I saw them in.. GoE, EV, DEV... and on and on.. they'd still be there doing their thing.
As for the botting no longer being a real problem in L2.. Then why the hell are people who are still playing still discussing it regularly? If it's so much improved, why is it still such a regular topic of discussion? Not only here, but on other forums? Why do I talk to people at game stores who play it who say the botting is still prevalent in the game? Why did a friend of mine who I met in Lineage 2 just tell me earlier that they still see bots/rmt all over the place? Are all of these people imagining things? Or could it be that, like always, proponents of a game will do anything to squash any negative views of it?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No offense, for the most part, no I didn't read your post. Both of them are overly lengthy. That year you played had to be WAY back when prelude C1 was out. Why do I say this? Again, I was there, I remember that era. I would have whole heartly agreed with you back then. I just resubed and Im sorry but I can see just fine with my own eyes. It's NOTHING like it was before. So if you're not playing then why bother crying about something you cant see in essay form? Go play something else. <shrugs>
No offense, but if you're not going to read my posts, you have no right responding to them.
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor. and your an idiot
Wow. Wait a moment... Let me re-read what you said there...
Yep.. I read it right.
So, let me get this straight. You called me out on an assumption proving you didn't know what you were talking about... (that I'd only played in Prelude.. when I'd noted having played areas of the game that didn't come out 'til C3... in case you conveniently forgot) and *I'm* an idiot? Wow. That's rich.
Most low lvl bots seems to hang out in the Darkelf area's not sure why maybe they's better spoils there or something, but theys less bots in the other starter area's.
Anyway the game is still filled with farmers and players who bots, off course all games has bots, but l2 is just so much worse when ncsoft dosen't care much, i guess its hard to figure out who's right on theese forums.
So if you start to play the game, you notice all the bots and that most off the player base dosen't care about it either anymore...
Exactly.
Though it is funny how when people find out you don't play anymore, suddenly things in the game are totally different... and you obviously can't comment because you're not even playing. Months or years of precedence, of seeing things run exactly the same way in the time you *did* play means nothing. Everything did a 180 almost as soon as you left.
I've seen this several times before with other MMOs. It happened once with Ryzom. I was playing and got sick of the lack of content. I left. I'd check back on the forums from time to time and ask about the state of the game, saying how it had bored me to tears before. Soon as the faithful found out I wasn't playing for a few months, "Oh it's nothing like that anymore.. they've added so much more to it. It's so much more interesting now. You really can't talk since you haven't played in a while". So I said, okay.. let me try it again. Re-upped my account.. bam... it was exactly as it was when I'd left. People were doing the same exact stuff they were when I'd left. Nothing had changed.
In the end, people love using the plausible deniability card to defend "their" game. "You're not playing, so you don't know".
Do I think there might be an improvement in the botting in L2? I would hope so, because it was pretty damn abysmal when I left. Do I believe it's as much improved as some claim? Hmm... I have my doubts. I'm pretty sure if I went back to any of the common areas I saw them in.. GoE, EV, DEV... and on and on.. they'd still be there doing their thing.
As for the botting no longer being a real problem in L2.. Then why the hell are people who are still playing still discussing it regularly? If it's so much improved, why is it still such a regular topic of discussion? Not only here, but on other forums? Why do I talk to people at game stores who play it who say the botting is still prevalent in the game? Why did a friend of mine who I met in Lineage 2 just tell me earlier that they still see bots/rmt all over the place? Are all of these people imagining things? Or could it be that, like always, proponents of a game will do anything to squash any negative views of it?
ab29x, there's no need to resort to calling ppl idiots for wanting to explain their opinon. That's unhelpful in the current debate.
I think you make a good argument Mike, my only response is to say that you seem to be justifying your reasons for leaving more than you are discussing the game.
The game as any other MMO will be perceived by players in accordance with their level of exposure to its content. What this means is that players who join robust and helpful clans will not come to be "affected" by botters or cheats to the degree that you seem to have been. I read frustration and disappointment between the lines of what you write.
I make this point because too many MMO's and not just L2 are wrapped up in trying to "win" at something. Don't get me wrong I think tyrying to be competitive is healthy but in L2 this has been taken out of context. There is a significant degree of blurring which has occured over the last 2 years of L2. The farmer botter issues of old have been partially dealt with by the simple fact of progression of the general playerbase. The more insiduous issue is the western players, cheating and botting and pretending to be the "old" farmer botter crowd. It is these individuals who seek to "be the best" at all cost and it is no doubt those individuals who have frustrated you to the point of leaving the game. The reason they are so frustrating is because they leverage the "cheating" to propel themselves to the forefront and partake of the "rewards" so sought out by the legit players.
In this regard you are right that the community is becoming blaze about it. In some respects I don't know how it can't because some of the ppl who I have found out to be doing dodgy stuff, were the guys I leveled up in CT or GC or TOI. I guess they gave in to the pressure of wanting to be the best and to do so at all costs. The issue becomes more compex if they were your friends or friends of friends where ppl begin to turn a blind eye simply because they want to keep playing at the "pace they're used to and if ppl begin to drop off the line up then it impacts everyone's game.
Whether your issue is with botting and farming in L2 or the loot pyramid systems of other MMOs you will always find a vice somewhere.
The issue then comes down to playing the MMO.
If you playstyle is such that you can only "enjoy" yourself playing competitively then yes, L2 has a giant achilles heel in the way that NCSoft has structured it open economy with just about everything being tradeable. However, by the very same reasoning there are avenues of dealing with these issues if you feel strongly enough about them. Where things stop is that its easier to post about the problem rather than tackling the issue ingame. Too many have sought to post, too few have tried to fight through the issue ingame.
The message to get out to new players tho is that this does not have to be the way they play the game. It does not have to be a race and you do not have to have the best gear instantly.
There is enough content in the game to get immersed in the lore and enjoy the experience of levelling, raiding and participating in the end game. All it takes it a bit of give and take and a lot of dedication and patience.
No offense, for the most part, no I didn't read your post. Both of them are overly lengthy. That year you played had to be WAY back when prelude C1 was out. Why do I say this? Again, I was there, I remember that era. I would have whole heartly agreed with you back then. I just resubed and Im sorry but I can see just fine with my own eyes. It's NOTHING like it was before. So if you're not playing then why bother crying about something you cant see in essay form? Go play something else. <shrugs>
No offense, but if you're not going to read my posts, you have no right responding to them.
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor. and your an idiot
Wow. Wait a moment... Let me re-read what you said there...
Yep.. I read it right.
So, let me get this straight. You called me out on an assumption proving you didn't know what you were talking about... (that I'd only played in Prelude.. when I'd noted having played areas of the game that didn't come out 'til C3... in case you conveniently forgot) and *I'm* an idiot? Wow. That's rich.
Most low lvl bots seems to hang out in the Darkelf area's not sure why maybe they's better spoils there or something, but theys less bots in the other starter area's.
Anyway the game is still filled with farmers and players who bots, off course all games has bots, but l2 is just so much worse when ncsoft dosen't care much, i guess its hard to figure out who's right on theese forums.
So if you start to play the game, you notice all the bots and that most off the player base dosen't care about it either anymore...
Exactly.
Though it is funny how when people find out you don't play anymore, suddenly things in the game are totally different... and you obviously can't comment because you're not even playing. Months or years of precedence, of seeing things run exactly the same way in the time you *did* play means nothing. Everything did a 180 almost as soon as you left.
I've seen this several times before with other MMOs. It happened once with Ryzom. I was playing and got sick of the lack of content. I left. I'd check back on the forums from time to time and ask about the state of the game, saying how it had bored me to tears before. Soon as the faithful found out I wasn't playing for a few months, "Oh it's nothing like that anymore.. they've added so much more to it. It's so much more interesting now. You really can't talk since you haven't played in a while". So I said, okay.. let me try it again. Re-upped my account.. bam... it was exactly as it was when I'd left. People were doing the same exact stuff they were when I'd left. Nothing had changed.
In the end, people love using the plausible deniability card to defend "their" game. "You're not playing, so you don't know".
Do I think there might be an improvement in the botting in L2? I would hope so, because it was pretty damn abysmal when I left. Do I believe it's as much improved as some claim? Hmm... I have my doubts. I'm pretty sure if I went back to any of the common areas I saw them in.. GoE, EV, DEV... and on and on.. they'd still be there doing their thing.
As for the botting no longer being a real problem in L2.. Then why the hell are people who are still playing still discussing it regularly? If it's so much improved, why is it still such a regular topic of discussion? Not only here, but on other forums? Why do I talk to people at game stores who play it who say the botting is still prevalent in the game? Why did a friend of mine who I met in Lineage 2 just tell me earlier that they still see bots/rmt all over the place? Are all of these people imagining things? Or could it be that, like always, proponents of a game will do anything to squash any negative views of it?
ab29x, there's no need to resort to calling ppl idiots for wanting to explain their opinon. That's unhelpful in the current debate.
I didn't, El. He did.
Btw, don't bother. He does this in the Archlord forums too with GameLoading. Just happened to see them.
Comments
I kinda doubt it.
And, seriously, I think it's common-knowledge by now that arguments such as yours "if you aren't playing" or "haven't played in the past 6 months..." are empty, baseless and ultimately failing attempts to try and dismiss opinions you don't agree with, but can't come back with any solid contradicting evidence yourself. Which you demonstrated in your post.
As for "WoW is worse", well, now you guys have a new way to dismiss or downplay the botting problems in LII. Before WoW came out, people would just deny it altogether.
Allow me to clarify my point again...
In WoW the bots can hide in instances - this much has been stated, by myself and others. For this reason, they are not a direct impedence to legit players trying to play the game. Why? Because they aren't swarming the areas, monopolizing the mobs the way they do and have in LII. I have *never* in my time playing WoW been prevented or slowed down from completing a task, or hunting in any given area because of tribes of similarly configured, similarly armored dwarves with names like "KPKPQNJK" running around out in the open. Not once. Yet, in many areas of LII, I dealt with them on a regular basis, and reported them many times.
Not once in WoW did I ever have to clear an area of botters/rmt just so I and my party can actually xp and get loot drops there. In LII it was part of the routine of leveling in a Cat/Necro.
Not once in WoW did I ever see the community dependent on the botters/farmers monopolizing a key game system as a way to keep their money rolling in to sell. In Lineage II, as I've said, the botters monopolized the manor system. It was a stroke of blind luck to be able to get your fruit turn-in because they had their scripts running and could always submit faster than a human could by hand. It was to a point where a portion of the player base actually got pissed off at NCSoft for getting rid of the botters, thus "forcing" the players to get their own materials to craft with. Prices skyrocketed and it was insane - until more botters came in and everything settled down again; everything was "back to normal".
Are there more botters in WoW? I'm sure there are. I never debated that. Are they the nuisance they are in Lineage II? Nope. Not even close. And again, at least Blizzard makes an effort to deal with them on a monthly basis. NCSoft, at best, seems to make a serious effort once every Chronicle.
Please, do not tell me these things don't or never happened. And as for the whole idea of "things have changed drastically in the past 6 months" - apparently the botting hasn't, because i've seen people discussing the issue as recently as a few days ago and it sounds like it's no different than before.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ok I've spent the time to read your post... I have the following observations.
Is it the game itself or the way certain players of the community have chosen to play the game ? I tend to think its the latter from your post ... Wouldn't it be better then to say that you did not have the playing experience which you expected rather than to trash the game ?
WRT the historical aspects you are highly presumtious in generalising that ppl just gave in to farmers and bots. You have not indicated the server where you played nor mentioned whether you belonged to any particular clan or alliance, so I cannot debate this aspect of your post. Whilst you are more than entitled to give your "view" of the game try to at least distil fact from opinion...
From my perspective, Kain, the server which I play on, is reknowned for PvP and Politics never gave into the bots despite various rants and raves on the boards. The bots simply moved to where the players were not. Just about every clan and alliance conducted bot purges and many areas of the world were on "lockdown" by one alliance or another. I myself have participated in wholescale purges of the Tower of Insolence throughout C2. Did the farmers come back ? Yes. Did they bother us or interfere with our enjoyment of the game ? No.
In my opinion L2's reputation had more to do with the lack of effective advertising and marketting by NCSoft leaving a vaccum for players who wanted to find out about the game. In the absence of fact, opinons quickly became gospel and those who were able to rant insistently enough on the various boards either browbeat the community to their point of view or thoroughly mislead anyone not fully conversant with the realities of the game.
Secondly, if you are so MMO savvy, then as Santa points out why did you bother petitioning ?
Why did you not just call your clan together and kill the bots ? Thats what every other clan on Kain did... They either tried and succeeded or tried and died. Pre C2 death was far more prevalent as it took players quite a few months not only to level up on par with the farmers but also to generate sufficient resources and equipment to fight them effectively. These days as Santa points out I'd like to see the farmers try to take on some of the high level clans...
Petitioning in L2 is basically to report bugs and game engine related issues. It is not there to resolve player issues like it was in EQ1 for example. If you're not sure as to what or how to petition have a read on the official boards which outline it quite succinctly.
In the same manner as your opnening paragraph choses to discard the opinions of others who have played L2 extensively based on the 26 MMOs which you have played, I reiterate the point, where specifically in terms of the game engine does L2 fall behind its competitors ? (With the one caveat that we all understand the different philosophy in game design between wester and eastern developers).
I don't believe you can compare L2's philosophy to EQ1 or DAOC or Shadowbane. I will not bother mentioning WoW or EQ2 as both of these games are probably diametrically opposed to L2's philosophy.
Whilst games like EQ1 forced you to group directly through the desing of the game engine, L2 does so by its manipulation of the XP curve. EQ1 was much criticised and it slowly modified itself to suit its players. Too little too late, but its successors like DAOC, WoW and EQ2 took careful note of this fact. This is why the content features so much focus on the individual. Be it through quests, ease of progression or trivial rewards the games are far more focused to catering to the individual that to the group.
This is the main difference between those games and L2.
L2 caters to groups. It is the individuals who cannot conform to this social requirement, that go on to bot, e-bay, cheat, rant and rave complaining what could have been or should have been.
There is not simple solution. After 3 years the game is what it is. Your choices are to play or not .
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
7X Eva's Templar
Kain
Ok I've spent the time to read your post... I have the following observations.
Is it the game itself or the way certain players of the community have chosen to play the game ? I tend to think its the latter from your post ... Wouldn't it be better then to say that you did not have the playing experience which you expected rather than to trash the game ?
WRT the historical aspects you are highly presumtious in generalising that ppl just gave in to farmers and bots. You have not indicated the server where you played nor mentioned whether you belonged to any particular clan or alliance, so I cannot debate this aspect of your post. Whilst you are more than entitled to give your "view" of the game try to at least distil fact from opinion...
From my perspective, Kain, the server which I play on, is reknowned for PvP and Politics never gave into the bots despite various rants and raves on the boards. The bots simply moved to where the players were not. Just about every clan and alliance conducted bot purges and many areas of the world were on "lockdown" by one alliance or another. I myself have participated in wholescale purges of the Tower of Insolence throughout C2. Did the farmers come back ? Yes. Did they bother us or interfere with our enjoyment of the game ? No.
In my opinion L2's reputation had more to do with the lack of effective advertising and marketting by NCSoft leaving a vaccum for players who wanted to find out about the game. In the absence of fact, opinons quickly became gospel and those who were able to rant insistently enough on the various boards either browbeat the community to their point of view or thoroughly mislead anyone not fully conversant with the realities of the game.
Secondly, if you are so MMO savvy, then as Santa points out why did you bother petitioning ?
Why did you not just call your clan together and kill the bots ? Thats what every other clan on Kain did... They either tried and succeeded or tried and died. Pre C2 death was far more prevalent as it took players quite a few months not only to level up on par with the farmers but also to generate sufficient resources and equipment to fight them effectively. These days as Santa points out I'd like to see the farmers try to take on some of the high level clans...
Petitioning in L2 is basically to report bugs and game engine related issues. It is not there to resolve player issues like it was in EQ1 for example. If you're not sure as to what or how to petition have a read on the official boards which outline it quite succinctly.
In the same manner as your opnening paragraph choses to discard the opinions of others who have played L2 extensively based on the 26 MMOs which you have played, I reiterate the point, where specifically in terms of the game engine does L2 fall behind its competitors ? (With the one caveat that we all understand the different philosophy in game design between wester and eastern developers).
I don't believe you can compare L2's philosophy to EQ1 or DAOC or Shadowbane. I will not bother mentioning WoW or EQ2 as both of these games are probably diametrically opposed to L2's philosophy.
Whilst games like EQ1 forced you to group directly through the desing of the game engine, L2 does so by its manipulation of the XP curve. EQ1 was much criticised and it slowly modified itself to suit its players. Too little too late, but its successors like DAOC, WoW and EQ2 took careful note of this fact. This is why the content features so much focus on the individual. Be it through quests, ease of progression or trivial rewards the games are far more focused to catering to the individual that to the group.
This is the main difference between those games and L2.
L2 caters to groups. It is the individuals who cannot conform to this social requirement, that go on to bot, e-bay, cheat, rant and rave complaining what could have been or should have been.
There is not simple solution. After 3 years the game is what it is. Your choices are to play or not .
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
7X Eva's Templar
Kain
My main beef is with people who play Lineage II (some - not all) insisting that the farming/botting/rmt isn't out-of-hand.
Whether I chose to deal with them or not (I did plenty of bot PK'ing in my time before it got old and annoying) or how I chose to has nothing to do with it.
What clans/allies I was in or what server I played on is also completely irrelevant. What's the difference? But for the record, I was on Hindemith as my main and had other toons on a couple other servers, just to play when Hinde was down. The most notable clan I was in was Divine. Again, not that any of that gives any more validity to my points - but if that's the ultimate qualifier for you, then there ya go. Have your cookie.
Whether or not NCSoft does a good job of dealing with the problem (and in my experience, they're half a notch above abysmal) has nothing to do with it.
My point is - Lineage II is widely known as being synonymous with "grind" and "botting". It has earned this reputation by - at least where botting is concerned - being just that.
Don't take my word for it - go look at the community forums for other MMOs. Talk to people who play other MMOs who've left LII for either or both of those two reasons. The numbers can't be denied - yet there are people who persist in doing so.
To say "well all MMOs have botters" is pointless... No one's saying they don't. They're just saying LII has it worse than any other that most people will have played.
To say "well, WoW has more players and therefor has more bots" is, again.. common sense on its face. But as an argument that LII doesn't have one of the worst botting problems in the MMO scene is plain disingenuous, especially *if* and when you put it in the context I've framed it:
The botters/farmers do their business where in WoW? In instances, right? If they're in instances, can they be impeding with or monopolizing an area other players are attempting to play in? No. They can't.
The botters/farmers do their business where in LII? In the Cats/Necros. I've seen them in Cruma Tower, in ToI, all over the place in the swamplands near DEV... They practically owned EV... and numerous other places. When it is common practice to clear an area of said farmers/botters before a party can xp there, it's rather difficult - except replace difficult with impossible - to claim they don't exist or that they aren't a nuisance. Perhaps not a nuisance to those who've come to accept them as a normal part of the game, but a nuisance nonetheless. Come on... the botting is to the point in LII that many people believe and have theorized that NCSoft is in league with them, if not running some of them themselves. Where the hell does that come from if they're not a problem?
By contrast.. I couldn't tell you of a single incident that I could spot a verifiable botter/rmt'er in WoW... and I saw plenty of that game as well. They never once impeded with my playtime in any way, shape or form. I've seldom seen a specific botter/rmt'er in FFXI that was still there more than a week later.
As for why didn't I petition? I petitioned *constantly*. As I said in an earlier post, I petitioned one group for at least 3 weeks straight without seeing anything happen to them.. I know because I actually wrote down the "name" of one of them.
I am not discrediting the opinions of others I disagree with. I'm merely telling the people who want to insist that botting/rmt isn't a real problem in LII that they're full of it.
Why do I debate the botting issue on this game? The same reason I debate botting/rmt in any game I've played - present or past - because it's a problem that effects all of them.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The bot population density is not as bad as one year ago, but that doesn't say any good about it, really... specially since back then it was a pathetic circus of grotesque proportions. The only thing you can do about it is see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. If you think different then go play sims life because L2 is not for you and ncsoftNA will not get their act together as they have the worst support ever. Now it's too late, since most population are already high levels with subclasses and lots of adena. Players in ncsoft's servers couldn't care less about the bots and the economy after all what they have endured.
NCsoft has banned loads of bots. The only bots you will generally see are "new" bots in areas below lvl 50 and 40. A bot can reach level 50 in about 3 days; and still it isn't as thick as it once was. The only places u see them are starter towns, usually de leveling, or some lower level catacombs. It is easy to kill bots in catacombs. Within the past year I could never not hunt somewhere because of farmers/bots; this is why I think your argument is very thin. You are arguing to players who currently play the game about the condition that the game is in when you urself do not play it anymore. Besides NCsoft is banning tons of bots, there just isn't such a big business anymore in L2. Farmers make the largest amount of money off of new players. L2 isn't getting tons of new players, most players are now established and working within the market, meaning there is little need for RMT.
Duno these posts pop up all the time, and there is always someone from another game that used to play L2 that comes and acts like they know what is going on.
I am not saying you don't know nothing about the game, you just know nothing about the current state of the game. It's ok tho, for me it is a game, I play it cause I like it. I choose it because I think it is better than all the other MMOs out there, but I understand it's problems although not unique to just L2. I too hope that L3 will be better designed to deter the RMT and farmer/bot markets.
I know NCSoft occasionally does these mass bannings. They did them while I was playing and for a while you didn't see nearly as many bots as there had been. But, in a matter of time, they were back full-force.
And really, to condone a mentality of "They're really only in the lower level areas, so they're not really the problem they used to be to the existing players"... I don't know, that seems a bit.. umm... don't want to say "elitist".. but it rings of a very "Well, it don't affect me personally, so why should I care?" attitude. If they're a problem to *anyone* at any level.. they're a problem. And if they're *anything* like they were in and around DEV when I last played.. then it's still a pretty big problem. I couldn't go after a single mob in those areas without having to beat as many as 3 bots to it.
If few new players are coming into the game, then that's a problem - especially right after NCSoft has relaunched a Retail boxed version... which is, I'm sure, not coincidental with the timing of this latest round of bannings. Smells of PR to me. And, hey.. I'm all for bannings of any type. A one-off example is nice.. but not definitive. If they continue with these bannings on a regular - say, monthly - basis.. then great! And it's about time. I just don't have that much faith in them to follow up that persistently. I'd love to be wrong though.
I might actually consider re-upping my account if htat were the case. Really intrigued by some of what I've seen abou tthe last couple updates. But not enough to re-up and deal with that crap again.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
They do mass bannings about twice a month, both SUPER cheating players and farmers alike that overuse a bot program get banned.
Your still gonna see bots though. But really people blow it way outa proportion. It is not like it was back in C3 and the end of C2 where it was rampant.
People are entitled to their opinions though, some people think one cheater is too much, whereas I think that philosophy is unrealistic.
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor.
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor. and your an idiot
Most low lvl bots seems to hang out in the Darkelf area's not sure why maybe they's better spoils there or something, but theys less bots in the other starter area's.
Anyway the game is still filled with farmers and players who bots, off course all games has bots, but l2 is just so much worse when ncsoft dosen't care much, i guess its hard to figure out who's right on theese forums.
So if you start to play the game, you notice all the bots and that most off the player base dosen't care about it either anymore...
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor. and your an idiot
Wow. Wait a moment... Let me re-read what you said there...
Yep.. I read it right.
So, let me get this straight. You called me out on an assumption proving you didn't know what you were talking about... (that I'd only played in Prelude.. when I'd noted having played areas of the game that didn't come out 'til C3... in case you conveniently forgot) and *I'm* an idiot? Wow. That's rich.
Most low lvl bots seems to hang out in the Darkelf area's not sure why maybe they's better spoils there or something, but theys less bots in the other starter area's.
Anyway the game is still filled with farmers and players who bots, off course all games has bots, but l2 is just so much worse when ncsoft dosen't care much, i guess its hard to figure out who's right on theese forums.
So if you start to play the game, you notice all the bots and that most off the player base dosen't care about it either anymore...
Exactly.
Though it is funny how when people find out you don't play anymore, suddenly things in the game are totally different... and you obviously can't comment because you're not even playing. Months or years of precedence, of seeing things run exactly the same way in the time you *did* play means nothing. Everything did a 180 almost as soon as you left.
I've seen this several times before with other MMOs. It happened once with Ryzom. I was playing and got sick of the lack of content. I left. I'd check back on the forums from time to time and ask about the state of the game, saying how it had bored me to tears before. Soon as the faithful found out I wasn't playing for a few months, "Oh it's nothing like that anymore.. they've added so much more to it. It's so much more interesting now. You really can't talk since you haven't played in a while". So I said, okay.. let me try it again. Re-upped my account.. bam... it was exactly as it was when I'd left. People were doing the same exact stuff they were when I'd left. Nothing had changed.
In the end, people love using the plausible deniability card to defend "their" game. "You're not playing, so you don't know".
Do I think there might be an improvement in the botting in L2? I would hope so, because it was pretty damn abysmal when I left. Do I believe it's as much improved as some claim? Hmm... I have my doubts. I'm pretty sure if I went back to any of the common areas I saw them in.. GoE, EV, DEV... and on and on.. they'd still be there doing their thing.
As for the botting no longer being a real problem in L2.. Then why the hell are people who are still playing still discussing it regularly? If it's so much improved, why is it still such a regular topic of discussion? Not only here, but on other forums? Why do I talk to people at game stores who play it who say the botting is still prevalent in the game? Why did a friend of mine who I met in Lineage 2 just tell me earlier that they still see bots/rmt all over the place? Are all of these people imagining things? Or could it be that, like always, proponents of a game will do anything to squash any negative views of it?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor. and your an idiot
Wow. Wait a moment... Let me re-read what you said there...
Yep.. I read it right.
So, let me get this straight. You called me out on an assumption proving you didn't know what you were talking about... (that I'd only played in Prelude.. when I'd noted having played areas of the game that didn't come out 'til C3... in case you conveniently forgot) and *I'm* an idiot? Wow. That's rich.
Most low lvl bots seems to hang out in the Darkelf area's not sure why maybe they's better spoils there or something, but theys less bots in the other starter area's.
Anyway the game is still filled with farmers and players who bots, off course all games has bots, but l2 is just so much worse when ncsoft dosen't care much, i guess its hard to figure out who's right on theese forums.
So if you start to play the game, you notice all the bots and that most off the player base dosen't care about it either anymore...
Exactly.
Though it is funny how when people find out you don't play anymore, suddenly things in the game are totally different... and you obviously can't comment because you're not even playing. Months or years of precedence, of seeing things run exactly the same way in the time you *did* play means nothing. Everything did a 180 almost as soon as you left.
I've seen this several times before with other MMOs. It happened once with Ryzom. I was playing and got sick of the lack of content. I left. I'd check back on the forums from time to time and ask about the state of the game, saying how it had bored me to tears before. Soon as the faithful found out I wasn't playing for a few months, "Oh it's nothing like that anymore.. they've added so much more to it. It's so much more interesting now. You really can't talk since you haven't played in a while". So I said, okay.. let me try it again. Re-upped my account.. bam... it was exactly as it was when I'd left. People were doing the same exact stuff they were when I'd left. Nothing had changed.
In the end, people love using the plausible deniability card to defend "their" game. "You're not playing, so you don't know".
Do I think there might be an improvement in the botting in L2? I would hope so, because it was pretty damn abysmal when I left. Do I believe it's as much improved as some claim? Hmm... I have my doubts. I'm pretty sure if I went back to any of the common areas I saw them in.. GoE, EV, DEV... and on and on.. they'd still be there doing their thing.
As for the botting no longer being a real problem in L2.. Then why the hell are people who are still playing still discussing it regularly? If it's so much improved, why is it still such a regular topic of discussion? Not only here, but on other forums? Why do I talk to people at game stores who play it who say the botting is still prevalent in the game? Why did a friend of mine who I met in Lineage 2 just tell me earlier that they still see bots/rmt all over the place? Are all of these people imagining things? Or could it be that, like always, proponents of a game will do anything to squash any negative views of it?
ab29x, there's no need to resort to calling ppl idiots for wanting to explain their opinon. That's unhelpful in the current debate.
I think you make a good argument Mike, my only response is to say that you seem to be justifying your reasons for leaving more than you are discussing the game.
The game as any other MMO will be perceived by players in accordance with their level of exposure to its content. What this means is that players who join robust and helpful clans will not come to be "affected" by botters or cheats to the degree that you seem to have been. I read frustration and disappointment between the lines of what you write.
I make this point because too many MMO's and not just L2 are wrapped up in trying to "win" at something. Don't get me wrong I think tyrying to be competitive is healthy but in L2 this has been taken out of context. There is a significant degree of blurring which has occured over the last 2 years of L2. The farmer botter issues of old have been partially dealt with by the simple fact of progression of the general playerbase. The more insiduous issue is the western players, cheating and botting and pretending to be the "old" farmer botter crowd. It is these individuals who seek to "be the best" at all cost and it is no doubt those individuals who have frustrated you to the point of leaving the game. The reason they are so frustrating is because they leverage the "cheating" to propel themselves to the forefront and partake of the "rewards" so sought out by the legit players.
In this regard you are right that the community is becoming blaze about it. In some respects I don't know how it can't because some of the ppl who I have found out to be doing dodgy stuff, were the guys I leveled up in CT or GC or TOI. I guess they gave in to the pressure of wanting to be the best and to do so at all costs. The issue becomes more compex if they were your friends or friends of friends where ppl begin to turn a blind eye simply because they want to keep playing at the "pace they're used to and if ppl begin to drop off the line up then it impacts everyone's game.
Whether your issue is with botting and farming in L2 or the loot pyramid systems of other MMOs you will always find a vice somewhere.
The issue then comes down to playing the MMO.
If you playstyle is such that you can only "enjoy" yourself playing competitively then yes, L2 has a giant achilles heel in the way that NCSoft has structured it open economy with just about everything being tradeable. However, by the very same reasoning there are avenues of dealing with these issues if you feel strongly enough about them. Where things stop is that its easier to post about the problem rather than tackling the issue ingame. Too many have sought to post, too few have tried to fight through the issue ingame.
The message to get out to new players tho is that this does not have to be the way they play the game. It does not have to be a race and you do not have to have the best gear instantly.
There is enough content in the game to get immersed in the lore and enjoy the experience of levelling, raiding and participating in the end game. All it takes it a bit of give and take and a lot of dedication and patience.
Anyway thats my food for thought.
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
7X Eva's Templar
Kain
I'd rather read an "overly lengthy" post with specific examples and backing evidence than a short post of baseless assumptions. At least you proved you didn't read my posts.
You offer no counters to my points, nothing to show evidence that anything I say is off. You merely say "you must have played back in Prelude" and "I just resubbed and I don't see anything wrong".
To address your assumptions, I played originally in Open Beta... Then checked it out for a bit in C1. Ultimately, I came back and played for the entirety of C2 and C3 right up 'til just before C4 came out.
I'd say that gives me a fair span of time to have seen and experienced plenty of the game with my own eyes.
Next, your response reeks of ignorance.. How can I have only played back in Prelude when I mention having to regularly clear bots out of areas that weren't introduced until C3? Great observation skills ya got there.
Next time you want to try dismissing someone's comments - make sure you know what you're talking about first, k?Edit: Not worth it. It'll just cause another page of crap filled with big words and hoopla that doesn't make a damn bit of difference since you don't play. You already admited you don't know the current state of the game. Go play something else then... Or write a book on it. Whatever. TBH I really don't care what you think. You're a non factor. and your an idiot
Wow. Wait a moment... Let me re-read what you said there...
Yep.. I read it right.
So, let me get this straight. You called me out on an assumption proving you didn't know what you were talking about... (that I'd only played in Prelude.. when I'd noted having played areas of the game that didn't come out 'til C3... in case you conveniently forgot) and *I'm* an idiot? Wow. That's rich.
Most low lvl bots seems to hang out in the Darkelf area's not sure why maybe they's better spoils there or something, but theys less bots in the other starter area's.
Anyway the game is still filled with farmers and players who bots, off course all games has bots, but l2 is just so much worse when ncsoft dosen't care much, i guess its hard to figure out who's right on theese forums.
So if you start to play the game, you notice all the bots and that most off the player base dosen't care about it either anymore...
Exactly.
Though it is funny how when people find out you don't play anymore, suddenly things in the game are totally different... and you obviously can't comment because you're not even playing. Months or years of precedence, of seeing things run exactly the same way in the time you *did* play means nothing. Everything did a 180 almost as soon as you left.
I've seen this several times before with other MMOs. It happened once with Ryzom. I was playing and got sick of the lack of content. I left. I'd check back on the forums from time to time and ask about the state of the game, saying how it had bored me to tears before. Soon as the faithful found out I wasn't playing for a few months, "Oh it's nothing like that anymore.. they've added so much more to it. It's so much more interesting now. You really can't talk since you haven't played in a while". So I said, okay.. let me try it again. Re-upped my account.. bam... it was exactly as it was when I'd left. People were doing the same exact stuff they were when I'd left. Nothing had changed.
In the end, people love using the plausible deniability card to defend "their" game. "You're not playing, so you don't know".
Do I think there might be an improvement in the botting in L2? I would hope so, because it was pretty damn abysmal when I left. Do I believe it's as much improved as some claim? Hmm... I have my doubts. I'm pretty sure if I went back to any of the common areas I saw them in.. GoE, EV, DEV... and on and on.. they'd still be there doing their thing.
As for the botting no longer being a real problem in L2.. Then why the hell are people who are still playing still discussing it regularly? If it's so much improved, why is it still such a regular topic of discussion? Not only here, but on other forums? Why do I talk to people at game stores who play it who say the botting is still prevalent in the game? Why did a friend of mine who I met in Lineage 2 just tell me earlier that they still see bots/rmt all over the place? Are all of these people imagining things? Or could it be that, like always, proponents of a game will do anything to squash any negative views of it?
ab29x, there's no need to resort to calling ppl idiots for wanting to explain their opinon. That's unhelpful in the current debate.
I didn't, El. He did.
Btw, don't bother. He does this in the Archlord forums too with GameLoading. Just happened to see them.