With the release of LoTRO, VSoH will take a big hit. The games are both very similar to the WoW cookie cutter MMOs.
ROFLMAO... that's just hilarious...
They are VERY different games...
QFT
If you think they are the same game I would suggest you havent played either of them for long enough to encounter the many stark differences between them. LOTRO may take some numbers from VG, but I think most of LOTRO's subs will be from people new to the genre altogether due to the strength of the IP, similar to the way WoW drew in a whole new crowd to MMO's with its IP.
The release of quality MMO's is good for the industry as a whole (including existing MMO's) because the industry is still in its expansionary phase. Its incorrect to think of the market as being saturated with games fighting over a static customer base.
Care to explain all these 'stark' differences? Or at least some of them. The other guys who I asked this have /dodged so far.
Of course your views of what a major difference is could be alot different than mine. But I wouldn't recommend VG to people are looking for something alot different than the WoW/EQ formula. That is for certain.
Off the top of my head...
Artistic style
No instances
No overarching storyline, more of a sandbox style
more races
more classes
diplomacy
stronger, and more frustrating, crafting system
bigger world.
swimming
flight
magic use
boats
housing. Yeah, Turbine says they will have in "in the futar!" Sigil says they will have this or that "In the futar!" as well. I've seen plenty of Devs say they would add something in the future. Until it's ingame, it's vapor.
Now, you could make a strawman out of oversimplifying the game down to kill mob, get gear, level, to kill more mobs, rinse repeat.
And if thats the case, then they really should have just stopped after making the very first CRPG, as just about every single one made after that in the last 20-30 years, has been exactly the same thing.
The highlighted point was the main one I had in mind and for me illustrates the core difference in the style of the game, but I agree with the other points too. The IP is also a significant difference. (ie one of the worlds biggest ever vs basically none).
Similarity between games or otherwise is dependent on the level of abstraction with which your comparing the products. For instance - lets say I was posting on a site called www.InterestingThingsToDoInYourSpareTime.com about how Im a minerologist in VG, and someone said,
"wtf is dis VG shiz?"
I would probably say,
"Are you familiar with World of Warcraft or Everquest? Its basically a game like those 2 bro"
But of course here on MMORPG we are in the business of nit-picking the differences between MMO's and discussing these differences and our opinions of them. Compared with the rest of things that exist in this world, sure, VG and LOTRO are pretty darn similar. But if you restrict the universe to only MMO's, there is a stark difference between the products.
Turbine said there are more then 600,000 open characters ready for live servers. In order to bring your open beta characters to live server you have to pre order so there.
I have heard that number too, from these forums. But that was 600k preorders are you shure that all 600k preorders have made a character lvl15 by now?
housing. Yeah, Turbine says they will have in "in the futar!" Sigil says they will have this or that "In the futar!" as well. I've seen plenty of Devs say they would add something in the future. Until it's ingame, it's vapor.
Now, you could make a strawman out of oversimplifying the game down to kill mob, get gear, level, to kill more mobs, rinse repeat. And if thats the case, then they really should have just stopped after making the very first CRPG, as just about every single one made after that in the last 20-30 years, has been exactly the same thing.
Well I hardly see those differences as 'stark' or 'major'. They seem pretty minor to me. If I was going to say one game was completely different from another I wouldn't pick LotRO and VG.
And I don't want to oversimplify the whole situation with mmo's being alike, but you can see a major difference between games like WoW and games like UO. AoC with seiging and new combat systems, WAR with RvR PvP focus, I would classify them games as almost competely different than VG.
That's all I was saying. I guess my point was, there is no point in arguing about these two games, because they are so much alike not the other way around.
Fair enough . For me the 'sandbox' vs 'storyline progression' is stark and major because 'sandbox feel' is probably the numero uno thing i look for in a game, so for me LOTRO and VG feel like chalk and cheese.
Fair enough . For me the 'sandbox' vs 'storyline progression' is stark and major because 'sandbox feel' is probably the numero uno thing i look for in a game, so for me LOTRO and VG feel like chalk and cheese.
Hell I wish I got that feeling from the game lol. I gotta say though it makes a hell of a lot of difference where you start. The vulmane area seems to be more this way when I neared the 20 mark. Wood elf area on the other hand just seemed like WoW in the sense I had to go to certain areas to quest for my level. The main central point of the wood elf area is such a pain too. The high elf starting island and area are proberly the worst out of all the races imo, and I happend to pick one first go. I thought to myself 'wtf is this', but playing a vulmane was about 100 times more fun.
I just never got a sandbox feeling from VG, and I had decent performance. Thanks for not taking my posts the wrong way.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
I think the biggest diference between VG and LotRO is PVP, while VG got some nice pvp (i play in the FFA server) there is no PVP in LotRO and please dont say that monster thingy is PVP, Turbine got afraid that ppl wouldnt like the game without pvp and just made this little sidegame so people dont complain about it, when they could have gone the hard way and probably the best one and make the evil side playable... that's mostly why i will continue playing VG till a good PVP game comes out.
I think the biggest diference between VG and LotRO is PVP, while VG got some nice pvp (i play in the FFA server) there is no PVP in LotRO and please dont say that monster thingy is PVP, Turbine got afraid that ppl wouldnt like the game without pvp and just made this little sidegame so people dont complain about it, when they could have gone the hard way and probably the best one and make the evil side playable... that's mostly why i will continue playing VG till a good PVP game comes out.
I take it you havn't actually engaged in the PvP of LotRO have you? Honestly now. Turbine was never afraid for a start, they had been planning a way to implement the 'evil' race for PvP purposes without hurting the games sense of lore. They done a very good job and it is in no way a sidegame, it is a very well done alternative to the PvE side of LotRO and the classes for both sides are very well balanced. You can play the 'evil' side in PvMP and it is PvP. You fight other players in a controlled environment. It's PvP whether you like it or not and it is very well done.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
I just can't see how LoTRO is going to have a major impact on VG. VG is doing a fine job at killing itself. The people leaving VG for LoTRO would probably have left anyway. LoTRO is just a convenient "excuse" to jump ship to something new rather than going back to something that has already been out for a while or waiting for the next ship to pass by.
I did try the LoTRO open beta and found it to be a bit lackluster despite its jawdropping landscape graphics. It's certainly well polished for an MMO and there's really nothing where I can jump up on my soap box and scream "this game sux because". No, it's in fact a fine MMO when looking at all the technical aspects and art direction. Kudos to Turbine for putting together a fine piece of software and not releasing it with 5 forward compartments flooded like Sigil did.
Still, it fails to pull me in and I think it has more to do with the fact that it's based in Middle Earth than anything else. It's a closed setting. All the major heroic events have already been described in detail. There is little wiggle room left for my character and his deeds, much less the thousands of other wannabe heroes. He can never be as great a wizard as Gandalf. Heck, he can't even be a wizard at all and even Gandalf seems weak in comparison to more "modern" wizards. That would have been okay in a sandbox type MMO like SWG where you could craft, decorate, explore huge planets and hang out at the cantina. I did just that and loved it until the NGE hit. There was no need for me to compete with Luke, Leia or Han when I could be the mayor of a city and have my own shop. Alas, LoTRO is all about following a linear plot through questing, which implies going down the path of a hero.
Anyway, good luck to Turbine and Sigil. I never understood this "X is going to be the doom of Y" mentality. I mean... wouldn't it be better if both games turned out to be successful?
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I just can't see how LoTRO is going to have a major impact on VG. VG is doing a fine job at killing itself. The people leaving VG for LoTRO would probably have left anyway. LoTRO is just a convenient "excuse" to jump ship to something new rather than going back to something that has already been out for a while or waiting for the next ship to pass by.
I did try the LoTRO open beta and found it to be a bit lackluster despite its jawdropping landscape graphics. It's certainly well polished for an MMO and there's really nothing where I can jump up on my soap box and scream "this game sux because". No, it's in fact a fine MMO when looking at all the technical aspects and art direction. Kudos to Turbine for putting together a fine piece of software and not releasing it with 5 forward compartments flooded like Sigil did.
Still, it fails to pull me in and I think it has more to do with the fact that it's based in Middle Earth than anything else. It's a closed setting. All the major heroic events have already been described in detail. There is little wiggle room left for my character and his deeds, much less the thousands of other wannabe heroes. He can never be as great a wizard as Gandalf. Heck, he can't even be a wizard at all and even Gandalf seems weak in comparison to more "modern" wizards. That would have been okay in a sandbox type MMO like SWG where you could craft, decorate, explore huge planets and hang out at the cantina. I did just that and loved it until the NGE hit. There was no need for me to compete with Luke, Leia or Han when I could be the mayor of a city and have my own shop. Alas, LoTRO is all about following a linear plot through questing, which implies going down the path of a hero.
Anyway, good luck to Turbine and Sigil. I never understood this "X is going to be the doom of Y" mentality. I mean... wouldn't it be better if both games turned out to be successful?
I agree with every part of your post. Well written and very truthful imo.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
Some really good points in this thread. From the little I played LORT in open beta, I really liked the game, it was nicely done, has good graphics, its a stable game, and has a great story line as far as I went. The major problem I see is what plagues most of turbines releases. It does some things really good and some things terrible. For example the great storyline is great the first time you played it. When I made a few alts to try different classes out, it became really tiring having to go through the exact same thing. There is not much variatey of starting areas and classes, some people with altitis might find this disconcerning. The lack of evil classes is also a big minus for me. The world becomes too one dimensional , especially for people who appreciate roleplaying. Hell my first guild in EQ2 imploded when the good alligned characters of the guild left the guild becuase of recrutment of a defiler and a shadowknight. Some people really dig that stuff. Compare that to vanguard where not only there are evil (really evil classses) but you can even specialize in evilness. I have joined a crafting faction in ahgram the Cabal, who's purpose is to experiment with human body parts , to use in crafting to improve items. Nothing better than making a gnome flesh adorned staff
Another thing thats lacking is variety. There's not a lot to do apart from the basic things that any MMORG out there already provides. In my humble opinion every game that will come out the next few years will get lots of initial sales from people willing to try it out, but unless it provides something radically different or better than the game people already play it will not hold those poeple for long. LoTRO does a lot of things great, but wether tis will be enough to bring and keep people that have already established themselves in other games remains to be seen. I mean sure LOTRO feels and looks good, but is it good enough to keep someone who has 2-3 level 70's characters in WoW , having invested time and effort to establish himself in that game, from returning back after a couple of months? That is the question all MMORG developers should be asking themselves.
The greatest advantage for me in Vanguard and the reason that lead me to leave EQ2 behind is that it offers me a lot of different things to do that I havent done before in any other online game. There something there, that makes me feel that any effort I will put in the game will bring me some reward in the future. A caravel, a big house in a prime plot, opportunity to put the head of that huge beast I killed on the wall of my house for everyone to see, a flying mount that I can use to reach places that few others will have accesss, a shop in a city that people will come to buy stuff from, intercontnental diplomatic trade (either this week's or the next weeks patch), opportunity to be a quest giver, etc etc. Those are some of the things that I havent done before and would like to do. I seriously doubt that I would have left EQ2 for a game that does the same things as EQ2 even if it did them a little bit better. The amount of time , the effort, the friends I left behind wouldnt justify it.
With the release of LoTRO, VSoH will take a big hit. The games are both very similar to the WoW cookie cutter MMOs. Both very impressive graphics a lot of the same features. VSoH is going to have to do something special to recover from the blow it takes from LoTRO. I've played both, and both seem like the exact same game to me. If I had to choose I think I'd go with LoTRO because it runs more smooth and I believe is cheaper per month. However, they are very similar. Hey, just my opinion....what do you think? Bring on the flames!
Doubt it ... i mean really who has not left already must like it.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
With the release of LoTRO, VSoH will take a big hit. The games are both very similar to the WoW cookie cutter MMOs. Both very impressive graphics a lot of the same features. VSoH is going to have to do something special to recover from the blow it takes from LoTRO. I've played both, and both seem like the exact same game to me. If I had to choose I think I'd go with LoTRO because it runs more smooth and I believe is cheaper per month. However, they are very similar. Hey, just my opinion....what do you think? Bring on the flames!
Cookie cutter....mmm...well then I shall take a dozen oatmeal raisins please.
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
With the release of LoTRO, VSoH will take a big hit. The games are both very similar to the WoW cookie cutter MMOs. Both very impressive graphics a lot of the same features. VSoH is going to have to do something special to recover from the blow it takes from LoTRO. I've played both, and both seem like the exact same game to me. If I had to choose I think I'd go with LoTRO because it runs more smooth and I believe is cheaper per month. However, they are very similar. Hey, just my opinion....what do you think? Bring on the flames!
They are different games. They are not similiar.
And quite frankly I hope that Vanguard does achieve it's own success. Clearly, people like it. Since this is the case, shouldn't they get a game they enjoy playing?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I just can't see how LoTRO is going to have a major impact on VG. VG is doing a fine job at killing itself. The people leaving VG for LoTRO would probably have left anyway. LoTRO is just a convenient "excuse" to jump ship to something new rather than going back to something that has already been out for a while or waiting for the next ship to pass by.
I did try the LoTRO open beta and found it to be a bit lackluster despite its jawdropping landscape graphics. It's certainly well polished for an MMO and there's really nothing where I can jump up on my soap box and scream "this game sux because". No, it's in fact a fine MMO when looking at all the technical aspects and art direction. Kudos to Turbine for putting together a fine piece of software and not releasing it with 5 forward compartments flooded like Sigil did.
Still, it fails to pull me in and I think it has more to do with the fact that it's based in Middle Earth than anything else. It's a closed setting. All the major heroic events have already been described in detail. There is little wiggle room left for my character and his deeds, much less the thousands of other wannabe heroes. He can never be as great a wizard as Gandalf. Heck, he can't even be a wizard at all and even Gandalf seems weak in comparison to more "modern" wizards. That would have been okay in a sandbox type MMO like SWG where you could craft, decorate, explore huge planets and hang out at the cantina. I did just that and loved it until the NGE hit. There was no need for me to compete with Luke, Leia or Han when I could be the mayor of a city and have my own shop. Alas, LoTRO is all about following a linear plot through questing, which implies going down the path of a hero.
Anyway, good luck to Turbine and Sigil. I never understood this "X is going to be the doom of Y" mentality. I mean... wouldn't it be better if both games turned out to be successful?
Well said. I am a bit mad a Sigil, because they blew a really good chance, and I hope LOTRO will show there are other important factors than mere size, like good story telling and creating an overall story in which you are compelled and feel like a part of something bigger than you. That is what I missed in VG.
In VG, I felt like dropped in a world and now see for yourself. I lacked everything that gave me meaning and that added "soul" to the places and quests, and what I see LOTRO is quite good in doing that. LOTRO has shortcomings, sure, but I think they focussed on some really strong things and it will be a huge - and deserved - success.
Like Faelan I played and enjoyed SWG in the old days, when it was just sandbox and me. But then was then and now is now. I changed. I could not live in such a sandbox world now anymore. Whatever the reasons, and I think many players have changed in that way. SOE realized that and their NGE was their way to try to react to that change, just they did it wrong. Sigil never realized the masses are not sanbox-friendly anymore IMO.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
LOL i played vanguard and its was such a huge mess, especially after my fanboy eager wait BUT all said it doesnt work very and aint too much fun. Step in LOTRO, its works is interested has shed loads of story line and is already 6 times bigger. Vanguard aint gonna cut it im afraid to say and the die hards will go down on a sinking ship. Just plain economics at the end of the day
LOL i played vanguard and its was such a huge mess, especially after my fanboy eager wait BUT all said it doesnt work very and aint too much fun. Step in LOTRO, its works is interested has shed loads of story line and is already 6 times bigger. Vanguard aint gonna cut it im afraid to say and the die hards will go down on a sinking ship. Just plain economics at the end of the day
But you didnt play Vanguard, you are just trolling.
LOTR:O will definately draw players from all sorts of MMO's, including Vanguard. But that's not the key. The key is, how long will these players be satisfied with LOTR:O? Yes all new games are fun & exciting, but how long people stay has to do with the staying power, reroll fun, and whether there's a reason to stay playing a game once you cap out. We already know how easy it is to get to cap level in LOTR:O, so it will be interesting to see what all people will say about the game in 2-3 months.
LOTR:O is a nice game, I agree, and I have recommended the game to some of my friends that can't play VG due to their comp system. But I just honestly don't know if the game will satisfy players enough for them to stay long term. So really, while I do agree LOTR:O will make a dent on VG and some other MMO's, it'll be interesting to see how it is after 2-3 months.
Bahh, I didn't play Vg ill admit it ... why ... exactly WHY ?
There was never enough info, or hard poof that the game looked good. Concept does not equal good game. Look at SB. That why people omg about AOC so far i am kind of in disbelief. So far the game looks ok.. combars a bit slow, but there alot of time to see how it finishes off. Same goes for WAr im warry of its class and insatnce system .. i hate instances mythic took the esy way out and is usign them for the majority of pvp. thats fine but i wonder ... will this keep me entertained? Ill have to wait longer.
I can say LotRO has nothign that makes me want to play it, i tried the beta and i can not figure out why people would play it other then as an escape from WoW.
As far as what isee that I like, WAR's animatiosn of players and mobs are great so far, lots of movement brings the npc to life. AoC mounted combat looks good so far... LotRO looks safe
But the issue is game will get hurt if their are better more attractive games out there to play. AOC and WAr are going to take alot from WoW , but id agrue they may hurt LotRO more, and as i said before VG is already on its last life.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
The next game that I can even see taking a lion share of the market will be Warhammer Online, so far its WoW 2.0 with the ability to PvE, PvP, RvR and Quest all towards a common goal of TAKING lands and holding them, not just killing and the boarders staying the same, guess that were my next 2¢ is going.
Something we agree on. I beleive more people will be heading to LotRO , just to play a game that runs smooth and fast. Face it, when was the last Western MMO able to run as smooth om a variety of machines.
If Vanguard would of just not hyped it self into the atmosphere and simply focused on making a solid game, they wouldn't being having all this negative feed back.
Vanguard is the poster child of how not to run a gaming development company. Egos don't program games, ask John Romero LoL
LOTR:O will definately draw players from all sorts of MMO's, including Vanguard. But that's not the key. The key is, how long will these players be satisfied with LOTR:O? Yes all new games are fun & exciting, but how long people stay has to do with the staying power, reroll fun, and whether there's a reason to stay playing a game once you cap out. We already know how easy it is to get to cap level in LOTR:O, so it will be interesting to see what all people will say about the game in 2-3 months. LOTR:O is a nice game, I agree, and I have recommended the game to some of my friends that can't play VG due to their comp system. But I just honestly don't know if the game will satisfy players enough for them to stay long term. So really, while I do agree LOTR:O will make a dent on VG and some other MMO's, it'll be interesting to see how it is after 2-3 months.
I've been in LotRO beta since November 2006, been playing it for almost 6 months now (woah , time flies) and i been through the same areas over and oover and over and over, and I simply enjoy them each time I play through them. Done every quest 20 times over , doesn't phase me, the game is just that well put together , in my opinion
I beta tested both games, I liked Lotr better but even though i do i sill wont shell out money to play either game come release. Vanguard is slowly dieying, Lotr will definately take some people away from Brad's Mcquaid EQ 3, it will prolly get a few people from WOW as well but not enough to effect WOW however Vanguard will be effected by Lortr. Vanguards constantly shrinking player base is extremely bad, it's difficult finding groups not to mention running the game; I know people that played Vanguard and have quit because of those issues, others ditched Vanguard mainly to play Lotr beta, they cancelled accounts and will most likely play Lotr.
My prediction, within a month or 2 of the release of Lotr Vanguard will have a free trial; which they will, if Lotr was not coming out the trial might be pushed back a year or so but the game would still be struggling. In my opinion Vanguard has allot of things to worry about Lotr is one of them, over the horizon 2 another behemoths are rising War and Aoc with the possiblility of another MMO coming out in 2008.
I do not see the possibility of survival of Vaguard past 2008, that's not just my opinion so don't flame me; there's more then enough circumstantial evidance to believe this.
Vanguard and LoTRO cater to different crowds, I'd think. I don't know of barely any people playing (and enjoying) Vanguard that would switch to a solo quest-based casual as all get out MMORPG. It's got polish and nice environmental graphics, I'll give it that; but the people in VG who are sailing around on ships and exploring endless scenery will probably pass up on the "Drive-Through" gaming experience which LoTRO provides.
Well, there is really no "nice" way to say what I'm about to say, so flame away if it floats your boat:
VG is buggy as all hell, however....that seems to keep the die hard old time (read crazy) players in the game. I guess many of us go back to the EQ-1 days and manage to survive here, I'm now in a Guild with 150 members, many of them from the EQ days that are great to group with because they don't run off when an encounter goes sour.
LoTR runs *smoother* than VG, forget the looks and feel. It seems better developed and has appeal to quite a few people judging by the 650,000 in Beta. With that said, I guess there are far to many "cute" spin offs of Ganndolf, Gandalff, Gandolph...you get the picture.
Basically, despite it's flaws, it's the remaining player base in VG that makes it so enjoyable.
VG got hurt already and it went down. The reason why it is taking long for it to shut down is the handful of blinded gamers with extremely low threshold of gameplay taste. They don't know how much they are hurting this industry by beating an already dead horse.
VG needs to be shut down like AC2. You see, Turbine learnt a lot from the AC2 disaster and put that experience into making LOTRO. In the same way, having learnt from the VG disaster, Sigil should work on their true masterpiece instead of losing time with this buggy grindfest of boring crashware.
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Comments
ROFLMAO... that's just hilarious...
They are VERY different games...
QFT
If you think they are the same game I would suggest you havent played either of them for long enough to encounter the many stark differences between them. LOTRO may take some numbers from VG, but I think most of LOTRO's subs will be from people new to the genre altogether due to the strength of the IP, similar to the way WoW drew in a whole new crowd to MMO's with its IP.
The release of quality MMO's is good for the industry as a whole (including existing MMO's) because the industry is still in its expansionary phase. Its incorrect to think of the market as being saturated with games fighting over a static customer base.
Care to explain all these 'stark' differences? Or at least some of them. The other guys who I asked this have /dodged so far.
Of course your views of what a major difference is could be alot different than mine. But I wouldn't recommend VG to people are looking for something alot different than the WoW/EQ formula. That is for certain.
Off the top of my head...
Artistic style
No instances
No overarching storyline, more of a sandbox style
more races
more classes
diplomacy
stronger, and more frustrating, crafting system
bigger world.
swimming
flight
magic use
boats
housing. Yeah, Turbine says they will have in "in the futar!" Sigil says they will have this or that "In the futar!" as well. I've seen plenty of Devs say they would add something in the future. Until it's ingame, it's vapor.
Now, you could make a strawman out of oversimplifying the game down to kill mob, get gear, level, to kill more mobs, rinse repeat.
And if thats the case, then they really should have just stopped after making the very first CRPG, as just about every single one made after that in the last 20-30 years, has been exactly the same thing.
The highlighted point was the main one I had in mind and for me illustrates the core difference in the style of the game, but I agree with the other points too. The IP is also a significant difference. (ie one of the worlds biggest ever vs basically none).
Similarity between games or otherwise is dependent on the level of abstraction with which your comparing the products. For instance - lets say I was posting on a site called www.InterestingThingsToDoInYourSpareTime.com about how Im a minerologist in VG, and someone said,
"wtf is dis VG shiz?"
I would probably say,
"Are you familiar with World of Warcraft or Everquest? Its basically a game like those 2 bro"
But of course here on MMORPG we are in the business of nit-picking the differences between MMO's and discussing these differences and our opinions of them. Compared with the rest of things that exist in this world, sure, VG and LOTRO are pretty darn similar. But if you restrict the universe to only MMO's, there is a stark difference between the products.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Well I hardly see those differences as 'stark' or 'major'. They seem pretty minor to me. If I was going to say one game was completely different from another I wouldn't pick LotRO and VG.
And I don't want to oversimplify the whole situation with mmo's being alike, but you can see a major difference between games like WoW and games like UO. AoC with seiging and new combat systems, WAR with RvR PvP focus, I would classify them games as almost competely different than VG.
That's all I was saying. I guess my point was, there is no point in arguing about these two games, because they are so much alike not the other way around.
Fair enoughHell I wish I got that feeling from the game lol. I gotta say though it makes a hell of a lot of difference where you start. The vulmane area seems to be more this way when I neared the 20 mark. Wood elf area on the other hand just seemed like WoW in the sense I had to go to certain areas to quest for my level. The main central point of the wood elf area is such a pain too. The high elf starting island and area are proberly the worst out of all the races imo, and I happend to pick one first go. I thought to myself 'wtf is this', but playing a vulmane was about 100 times more fun.
I just never got a sandbox feeling from VG, and I had decent performance. Thanks for not taking my posts the wrong way.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs
Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW
Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
I take it you havn't actually engaged in the PvP of LotRO have you? Honestly now. Turbine was never afraid for a start, they had been planning a way to implement the 'evil' race for PvP purposes without hurting the games sense of lore. They done a very good job and it is in no way a sidegame, it is a very well done alternative to the PvE side of LotRO and the classes for both sides are very well balanced. You can play the 'evil' side in PvMP and it is PvP. You fight other players in a controlled environment. It's PvP whether you like it or not and it is very well done.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs
Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW
Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
I did try the LoTRO open beta and found it to be a bit lackluster despite its jawdropping landscape graphics. It's certainly well polished for an MMO and there's really nothing where I can jump up on my soap box and scream "this game sux because". No, it's in fact a fine MMO when looking at all the technical aspects and art direction. Kudos to Turbine for putting together a fine piece of software and not releasing it with 5 forward compartments flooded like Sigil did.
Still, it fails to pull me in and I think it has more to do with the fact that it's based in Middle Earth than anything else. It's a closed setting. All the major heroic events have already been described in detail. There is little wiggle room left for my character and his deeds, much less the thousands of other wannabe heroes. He can never be as great a wizard as Gandalf. Heck, he can't even be a wizard at all and even Gandalf seems weak in comparison to more "modern" wizards. That would have been okay in a sandbox type MMO like SWG where you could craft, decorate, explore huge planets and hang out at the cantina. I did just that and loved it until the NGE hit. There was no need for me to compete with Luke, Leia or Han when I could be the mayor of a city and have my own shop. Alas, LoTRO is all about following a linear plot through questing, which implies going down the path of a hero.
Anyway, good luck to Turbine and Sigil. I never understood this "X is going to be the doom of Y" mentality. I mean... wouldn't it be better if both games turned out to be successful?
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs
Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW
Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
Some really good points in this thread. From the little I played LORT in open beta, I really liked the game, it was nicely done, has good graphics, its a stable game, and has a great story line as far as I went. The major problem I see is what plagues most of turbines releases. It does some things really good and some things terrible. For example the great storyline is great the first time you played it. When I made a few alts to try different classes out, it became really tiring having to go through the exact same thing. There is not much variatey of starting areas and classes, some people with altitis might find this disconcerning. The lack of evil classes is also a big minus for me. The world becomes too one dimensional , especially for people who appreciate roleplaying. Hell my first guild in EQ2 imploded when the good alligned characters of the guild left the guild becuase of recrutment of a defiler and a shadowknight. Some people really dig that stuff. Compare that to vanguard where not only there are evil (really evil classses) but you can even specialize in evilness. I have joined a crafting faction in ahgram the Cabal, who's purpose is to experiment with human body parts , to use in crafting to improve items. Nothing better than making a gnome flesh adorned staff
Another thing thats lacking is variety. There's not a lot to do apart from the basic things that any MMORG out there already provides. In my humble opinion every game that will come out the next few years will get lots of initial sales from people willing to try it out, but unless it provides something radically different or better than the game people already play it will not hold those poeple for long. LoTRO does a lot of things great, but wether tis will be enough to bring and keep people that have already established themselves in other games remains to be seen. I mean sure LOTRO feels and looks good, but is it good enough to keep someone who has 2-3 level 70's characters in WoW , having invested time and effort to establish himself in that game, from returning back after a couple of months? That is the question all MMORG developers should be asking themselves.
The greatest advantage for me in Vanguard and the reason that lead me to leave EQ2 behind is that it offers me a lot of different things to do that I havent done before in any other online game. There something there, that makes me feel that any effort I will put in the game will bring me some reward in the future. A caravel, a big house in a prime plot, opportunity to put the head of that huge beast I killed on the wall of my house for everyone to see, a flying mount that I can use to reach places that few others will have accesss, a shop in a city that people will come to buy stuff from, intercontnental diplomatic trade (either this week's or the next weeks patch), opportunity to be a quest giver, etc etc. Those are some of the things that I havent done before and would like to do. I seriously doubt that I would have left EQ2 for a game that does the same things as EQ2 even if it did them a little bit better. The amount of time , the effort, the friends I left behind wouldnt justify it.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
They are different games. They are not similiar.
And quite frankly I hope that Vanguard does achieve it's own success. Clearly, people like it. Since this is the case, shouldn't they get a game they enjoy playing?
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well said. I am a bit mad a Sigil, because they blew a really good chance, and I hope LOTRO will show there are other important factors than mere size, like good story telling and creating an overall story in which you are compelled and feel like a part of something bigger than you. That is what I missed in VG.
In VG, I felt like dropped in a world and now see for yourself. I lacked everything that gave me meaning and that added "soul" to the places and quests, and what I see LOTRO is quite good in doing that. LOTRO has shortcomings, sure, but I think they focussed on some really strong things and it will be a huge - and deserved - success.
Like Faelan I played and enjoyed SWG in the old days, when it was just sandbox and me. But then was then and now is now. I changed. I could not live in such a sandbox world now anymore. Whatever the reasons, and I think many players have changed in that way. SOE realized that and their NGE was their way to try to react to that change, just they did it wrong. Sigil never realized the masses are not sanbox-friendly anymore IMO.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
But you didnt play Vanguard, you are just trolling.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
LOTR:O will definately draw players from all sorts of MMO's, including Vanguard. But that's not the key. The key is, how long will these players be satisfied with LOTR:O? Yes all new games are fun & exciting, but how long people stay has to do with the staying power, reroll fun, and whether there's a reason to stay playing a game once you cap out. We already know how easy it is to get to cap level in LOTR:O, so it will be interesting to see what all people will say about the game in 2-3 months.
LOTR:O is a nice game, I agree, and I have recommended the game to some of my friends that can't play VG due to their comp system. But I just honestly don't know if the game will satisfy players enough for them to stay long term. So really, while I do agree LOTR:O will make a dent on VG and some other MMO's, it'll be interesting to see how it is after 2-3 months.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
There was never enough info, or hard poof that the game looked good. Concept does not equal good game. Look at SB. That why people omg about AOC so far i am kind of in disbelief. So far the game looks ok.. combars a bit slow, but there alot of time to see how it finishes off. Same goes for WAr im warry of its class and insatnce system .. i hate instances mythic took the esy way out and is usign them for the majority of pvp. thats fine but i wonder ... will this keep me entertained? Ill have to wait longer.
I can say LotRO has nothign that makes me want to play it, i tried the beta and i can not figure out why people would play it other then as an escape from WoW.
As far as what isee that I like, WAR's animatiosn of players and mobs are great so far, lots of movement brings the npc to life. AoC mounted combat looks good so far... LotRO looks safe
But the issue is game will get hurt if their are better more attractive games out there to play. AOC and WAr are going to take alot from WoW , but id agrue they may hurt LotRO more, and as i said before VG is already on its last life.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
If Vanguard would of just not hyped it self into the atmosphere and simply focused on making a solid game, they wouldn't being having all this negative feed back.
Vanguard is the poster child of how not to run a gaming development company. Egos don't program games, ask John Romero LoL
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I beta tested both games, I liked Lotr better but even though i do i sill wont shell out money to play either game come release. Vanguard is slowly dieying, Lotr will definately take some people away from Brad's Mcquaid EQ 3, it will prolly get a few people from WOW as well but not enough to effect WOW however Vanguard will be effected by Lortr. Vanguards constantly shrinking player base is extremely bad, it's difficult finding groups not to mention running the game; I know people that played Vanguard and have quit because of those issues, others ditched Vanguard mainly to play Lotr beta, they cancelled accounts and will most likely play Lotr.
My prediction, within a month or 2 of the release of Lotr Vanguard will have a free trial; which they will, if Lotr was not coming out the trial might be pushed back a year or so but the game would still be struggling. In my opinion Vanguard has allot of things to worry about Lotr is one of them, over the horizon 2 another behemoths are rising War and Aoc with the possiblility of another MMO coming out in 2008.
I do not see the possibility of survival of Vaguard past 2008, that's not just my opinion so don't flame me; there's more then enough circumstantial evidance to believe this.
VG is buggy as all hell, however....that seems to keep the die hard old time (read crazy) players in the game. I guess many of us go back to the EQ-1 days and manage to survive here, I'm now in a Guild with 150 members, many of them from the EQ days that are great to group with because they don't run off when an encounter goes sour.
LoTR runs *smoother* than VG, forget the looks and feel. It seems better developed and has appeal to quite a few people judging by the 650,000 in Beta. With that said, I guess there are far to many "cute" spin offs of Ganndolf, Gandalff, Gandolph...you get the picture.
Basically, despite it's flaws, it's the remaining player base in VG that makes it so enjoyable.
VG needs to be shut down like AC2. You see, Turbine learnt a lot from the AC2 disaster and put that experience into making LOTRO. In the same way, having learnt from the VG disaster, Sigil should work on their true masterpiece instead of losing time with this buggy grindfest of boring crashware.
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