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PvP sucks
Kindelnol
Member Posts: 62
I do not believe it is a good thing to discard character advancement. Many play just for that delight. However, PvP can be an excellent alternative to the regular gaming, whatever that might be.
I have an idea that seems like it would work, to some degree at least.
I believe that if a game were to employ dishonor or infamy, or whatever one might want to call it, as a way to serve penalties, we might find the balance. Griefers are hated for their misdeeds, but that does not stop them from griefing. I do not see why they should not meet heavier consequences for what they do, especially since it is generally ill-willed.
Say someone killed another that was at least 50 levels below them, that person should get negative karma that will accumulate and reach different levels of penalties on the case of death by another player. If the said wrongdoer camps another, the negative points they acquire go up greatly each time they do it.
Now, this cannot be stopped, but justice can still be served. Upon death by another player, their loss should be far greater (whether it be XP drop, loot drop, or stat decrease, etc.) depending on the dishonor acquired up to that point. Now, I do not mean a slap on the wrist. I mean something that they will truly feel, and likely want to avoid.
To allow the victims to contribute to the cause, I think there should be a bounty pool. People should be able to create and contribute to a reward on the chance that the dishonorable player might be slew. This not only increases the likeliness that the player will be hunted, but also allows the victims to participate.
I do not personally have a problem with PvP (thus I am not looking for a game or things of this sort), but I am aware of it. Does this seem like a reasonable solution (mainly for the casuals or others that have issues with this)?
The title of the topic is intended just to grab attention O_O
Comments
Too many people complain about ganking. The way I see it is that if you wanted to survive you should have prepared yourself. PvP games are about competition. If you want to be coddled and to just have fun, then a pvp game is not right for you.
If you have a competative spirit and want to do what needs to be done to compete then you will be sucessfull in a pvp game.
The reason compeition is such a focal point is because games do not offer true competition in pve experiences. So players look to othr players for a true challenge of skill.
If you enjoy pitting you skills against a formidable foe then you will enjoy pvp. If you do not care for true competition you will choose pve.
No mater your persuit, just do what you feel is right and fun and don't condemn others for doing what they feel is right and fun.
Anyway, regarding the topic, PvP can be fun, IF factions are balanced and if the lvl limitation to attack other players is reduced to 4 or 5 (not 10 like WoW).
Outnumbering and the ability to gank = bad pvp.
Regarding the "bad rep points system", long awaited by players, never implemented by developpers, we can still hope for it to arrive.
I'd like a system where, the more a person kill players belows their lvl or with worse gear than their, or on a 1 vs 10 scenario, the more they are "hated" by their own faction (can't use vendors, enter cities, etc), and they should be worth a bounty in money/items for the opposite faction. The worse their reputation, the better the reward. When they are killed by someone who took the "bounty", then their bad rep resets to zero.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
skillz for killz!
seriously, the ones with the number doesnt always win, i´ve played shadowbane on and of since release got a few irl m8s that i play with, didnt matter if the enemie were 3x our number we would still pwn em (power of teamwork), 3 vs 10 np if u got any idea what u are doing, and in a game like shadowbane where u wage war against other guilds no one cares if u are a lowbie, if u are in the enemie nation then u must die and accept it, and a good thing in shadowbane is even if u are lv30 fighting someone lv60 u can win if u are the right class, most pvp games are rock, papper, sisscor (ok i cant spell it) which is the best way to balance a pvp game not make stupid restrictions
Your wish list sounds alot like Lineage 2. Come join the fun
The reset to zero option imo wouldn't work because that could be exploited just as placing bounties on the individual could be exploited. The Karma should have a lasting effect and require the offender to perform activities to reverse it, otherwise what would occurr once the detrimental effects started causing the offender a hardship they could simply be removed by arrainging for the characters death to once again start the process over.
Should the individual choose to remain on the nefarious path then imo perma death should be the ultimate penalty, the gods showing such disfavor that they bring the soul back in for reprograming. The player then having to start over from day one. Now obviously this would only be an issue for the higher level player that likes to camp the low level areas just to get their preverse kicks out of killing characters so far beneath them that there is no risk to themselves and shouldn't be applied to the PvP activities that would be considered appropriate.
The other area of concern I feel needs to be looked at is the issue of the death penalty. Personaly when the entertainment value of a game is lost because of a harsh panalty I think its gone too far. You shouldn't loose months worth of gaming to a death and chalk it up to just the price you pay. Appy a harsh death penalty on an individual too many times and waht happens? They just stop playing the game and move on, who looses then? The gaming company because they lost a subscriber, the community because theres one less person playing the game and the player themself for the time wasted in the game.
Just as the issues of the Griefer need to be addressed so do the issues of the appropriateness of the Death Penalty.
Here's the problem: I want to return to a game like Shadowbane, a game with wide open PvP. I log in one of my old characters. (not an uber character, but a mid-level character). As soon as I log in, I am ambushed by very high level players who just sit and camp the entry areas of the game to wipe out new or returning players.
I log out, uninstall game. End of story.
The problem with PVP is it gets too out-of-hand.
The way to properly implement PVP is to invoke limitations. Such as you cannot PVP with people 5 levels lower unless they initiate, and ofcourse Safe Areas. Then there is the option of PVP based mini-games that would give lower levels the same chance at winning as higher levels.
However, a game just won't do well unless it has solid PVP. PVP allows for a much greater playtime then other forms of PVE. Just look at what happened to WOW when they introduced Honor and Battle grounds. People played for months and raided high-level instances to get the gear to compete in PVP.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I think we all can agree about one thing: when you play and your hart is pounding like a big hammer, and you sweat, scream and tweaks in your chair.....thats the real feeling in intense PvP.
And who does not like that?
A bad MMO PvP system wont give you this feeling......
Also, games should be coded so that if there are levels, they are so close together from a Pvp perspective that yes, 5 level 30's could quite easily take down a level 50..... another more reasonable anti-ganking measure.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I much prefer open PvP.
Ganking is part of MMO PvP, the sides dont have to be even, much like real life conflicts. The rise of 8v8 group fights in DAoC are what destroyed it for me, without the ideal group it was no longer fun, large scale PvP died out and there were more limited opportunities for 1v1, 1v2 and other small scale fights. There is nothing better in PvP than beating superior numbers, if I want a fair fight I can always play stuff like GW or CS.
Getting jumped while doing PvE, its just part of an open PvP system, you should be expecting an ambush at any time and should already have an idea of what you will do. I admit they give a boost to the attacked, but that boost can allow you to take down a harder opponent, its not a bad thing, its part of choosing when it is best to attack. If I wanted 1v1s all the time I would go play some Street Fighter style beat'em'up.
PvP for me is tracking down my prey, picking the right time to strike and coming away victorious. Open PvP systems are pretty much the only systems that offer this.
I agree that PvP is also about being prepared for what others throw at you, but there is a difference between preparation and helplessness. By having a player unable to act against another not matter what the circumstances seems to work against simple preparation. One cannot prepare himself against power yet to be attained. So, that would only work if there were limits and what not making it where people do not hold excessive power. Keep in mind that I am trying to find a balance vice reducing something like power.
"Translation: i like ganking and it's very fun for ME."
I fail to understand how I even remotely hinted at being a ganker. I am actually not much of a PvPer, but I do enjoy discussing problems within MMOs, among other things.
Concerning death penalties, I think that they are an important piece to a game. I know there are a lot of people that do not like consequences, but that is part of what makes it fun. Take a game like FFXI where you fear dying because your experience will reduce. What do you do? You avoid it as best you possibly can.
In WoW, if I die, I sigh and continue playing after the inconvenience. Where is the intensity that you might die? Where is the fear? I can safely say I never experienced fear of death in WoW. I have certainly gotten angry, but again, I just continue playing after the inconvenience.
Now, in my idea, death penalty will really only be severe if you have bad karma. It gets worse and worse the more you have. Will this stop ganking? No. It will not stop it, that is not the point. It will stop those that are afraid and too weak to fight with consequences. It won't stop those that want to fight against the odds and see how far they can go with it. It is for those that are willing to stare death in the face and smile. It also aids those that feel helplessness.
I am all for a challenge. However, killing weaklings is not challenging (except for those that are trying to survive). If you add a challenge to like this to it, suddenly it is challenging for both sides.
No game today has what I would call good or real PvP. Well Face of Mankind does but that game is almost dead and buried.
But there is one game that im looking forward to is Darkfall where PvP really is PvP, and one of the best things about it is that there are no levels only skills.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes"
Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
Let's say a newb is trying to make level 4, but keeps getting ganked by DIFFERENT high level players. The frustration that player experiences will often cause him to quit. The fact that later in the game some sort of punishment will occur, possibly, to one of the offenders doesn't decrease the frustration of the person trying to make leve 4, not even a little bit. This person quits because he can't accomplish what he's trying to do in the game, not because he wants the ganker to be punished.
You also have to remember that in an MMORPG players often get bored and quit, especially power levelers. They may level a toon VERY FAST, gank a newb over and over, then retire that toon when there are to many penalties on it. Then they'll powerlevel another, gank the same newb since they will level much faster than that player, and eventually get bored and quit. How do your penalties help this newb getting ganked over and over again? Answer is , they don't, not in the least.
Penalties work the same in the real world. They never really compensate the victim. Let's say a criminal kills your parents, and your brothers and sisters. What penalty can that criminal suffer that will make you whole and happy again? The answer is that no matter what penalties you apply to the criminal, you will not be happy because your family is dead. That's the nature of punishment. It helps society, not the victim.
I'd much rather see Tiers of player levels. You change nothing for PvE, and level like always. However in PvP, each 10 levels is a Tier. So 1-10 is Tier 1, 11-20 is Tier 2, and so on.
Players of the same Tier are equal in hit points and damage dealing. That means you have an even chance of killing anyone the same Tier as you, and two Tier 1's would be an even match for one Tier 2 player (just add up the total Tiers), but not one Tier 3 player, and so on.
Absinthe LOvers
Level based games are an impediment to fun open PvP. Period.
So is anything that minimizes player input as a factor in battles- auto-combat, dice rolls, macros. Why have PvP in the first place?
MMORPGs and the narrow mindedness of it's fans and developers suck. MMORPGs are a shitty host environment for PvP. PvP itself does not suck. Mankind has been getting thrills for ages fighting and killing one another; pretending to fight and kill one another; and reformatting the concept of fighting and killing one another into a more playful means of battle known as SPORTS.
When the mold is broken- open PvP games will far surpass everything we've seen out of this genre in the past 10 years; specifically in terms of fan base... because pretty much the rest of the entire world loves to declare victory over another human being; and go "ha ha im better than you."
So a few million of you are satisifed with defeating the same AI monster you've killed the same way a 100 times before... so what. Just enjoy these early days of MMORPG while you can- (to the carebears) because they will be going away very shortly- as soon as the genre hits it's rebellious teenage phase, it's a just a cutesey wootsey leetle 10 year old after all.
1. Bounties do not work. The player with a bounty on his head will just let his guildmate kill him and they will split the bounty. Abusing ftw.
2. If killing a low level is bad and gives you penalties, what would you do if 10 low levels attack you? Let them beat you to death ? Something like this will be abused.
3. Giving the victims a compensation is bad as well. Will be abused by people killing a low level alt for whatever you get.
I think the main problem is that most victims or non-PvPers simply do not know about the nature of open-pvp games and how to defend themselves. They do not understand that a pvp game is like being thrown into a cage with hungry tigers. If they knew how to defend themselves or how to stay alive, they wouldn't be whining day and night about griefers. Open pvp is like a chess game with 10k players at the same time. You play to win, you play to have fun through competition. Most people do not understand this. People that get griefed again and again are not even trying to overcome the hurdles.
In an open pvp game griefing will always happen. PvP without boundaries is by its very nature unfair. Being succesfull in PvP means that you make it more unfair for the others
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I gotta quote the great Professor Farnsworth on this one. "Perfectly symetrical violence never solved anything."
The context under which that was said was funny, but the statement is completely true. While an engagement might start out completely even, as in chess, there has to come a point where the balance shifts to one side or the other. The problem with MMOs is that they give the handicap to the less experienced players which kind of defeats the purpose of having a handicap in the first place. The Catch 22 is that people won't play these games if they don't feel as though they are advancing so straighting out the advancement curve actually cuts into the profits made on subscriptions.
Figure out a way to keep the playing field relatively level while still keeping the subscriptions rolling in and you'll have a winner.
if ye find any open pvp games tell me
UO had a karma like system. You kill innocent civilians randomly, you turn grey and can be attacked by everyone. Kill a few more and you go red, allowing you to attack and be attacked by every player. You're unable to enter town, and don't go "blue" again for a long time.
Obviously, people did this on purpose, and guilds of murderers began forming. However, there were enough players on the good side that would hunt the reds, it made it a lot more balanced. I seem to remember a bounty system in place, you could place a bounty on the head of someone who killed you... though I dunno if it did anything...
I think the only way open PVP would work now is if those who become random murderers are forced to live very difficult lives as they had to in UO, no real safe places, many, many people hunting them. They need to offer substantial reward for good players to track down and kill the murderers. The motivation to hunt and defeat murderers needs to be greater reward then being a murderer. Crime doesn't pay. Obviously, people will still play murderous character simply for the thrill and freedom associated with being an Outlaw. Actually, their was one Outlaw town.. Skara Brea I think it was called for Reds to do some of the "neccessary" tasks.
To this day, no one has been able to beat the UO pvp system. Order vs Chaos, "red's" vs the rest, and the Factions.... truely great.. throw in Arena's and battlegrounds, boom, you've got a winning formula.
At the same time, it was much, much different then today's games. Mages had the ultimate advantage, as did those who mastered unarmed combat. You could rez with nothing but your death robe and still own on people. People didn't waste the time looting peoples corpses because all they'd get was a stack of death robes lol. Today's games are FAR too gear dependant for that... it'd have to be 100% player skill/character skill and 0% gear to work in a modern MMO. Otherwise you just can't make people's stuff lootable.
And still, there was no true point to capturing all of the towns for your Faction, just to say that you did. I think that's the real big problem, back then, we did things because it was fun to do them. It was cool to help your faction win control of a town. It was cool to hunt down and kill a Red.... Now? People are far too concerned with gear and loot... You can blame Everquest for that.
Create a game where gear/loot doesn't mean anything, it's all about player skill and your characters abilities, it's going to be really hard to be successful in a post EQ world. People would rather show off their phat loot, stroking their ego, then be a silent killer... nothing too special looking, just an average looking toon... then wham! Their true potential is shown, and people remember your name.
Gillvane, I don't think players would go to PvP servers without knowing the danger for low leveled players. In my idea, I am offering a way to fight back through the bounty pool that one can support. The idea is to help those that are aware of the dangers but hate being unable to influence anything due to their level (of course, once they get higher they can take matters into their own hands).
1. Yes, this would indeed be a problem. Of course, guildmates could not collect the bounty, but what about friends in another guild. I will have to come up with a solution for that, if there is one at all LOL.
2. I would imagine that you could fight back as long as they assaulted you first. If you did happen to kill someone you did not intend to kill, there are always ways to regain the lost reputation from the event.
3. Not really toward me, but I agree compensating the victim could easily be abused. That is why I suggest the ability to influence vice getting compensated. Just to make sure the bounty system doesn't become abused, it would be easy enough to make their bad karma reflect the limit of bounty that is able to be put on their head.