A game such as CoV falls into a "class" game, however, it has the main advantage of both systems!
You have a choice of primary, a choice of secondaries and these limit you as in a class, however, the combination you can make allow for great diversity. Also, it has alternatives power, so everyone can "taunt", or "Rez", or "TP a friend". Granted, taunt from the alternatives power will always be weaker then the taunt of a primary or secondary, the Rez effect is weaker then most rez in the game and so on (there is 1 rez which is weaker in a secondary that I can think of, yet, you can pick right away, no prime requirement, it is a filling power IMO for that line), however, it allow some diversity, best of both world IMO. Anyone can heal...but if you want to be a good healer, it take a real dedication to it, which is extremely close to Real Life in the sense that very few peoples get past a point without "becoming member of a class".
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What a great article. Alot of great feedback too. From where i sit and from what i've read here, this means that SWG pre-CU days was what everyone is looking for. A few mentioned grinding was forced in SWG. Wrong. It was the preferred method but there was tons to do to earn XP and get your skills up. I understand the delema that SOE had with the game. Too many professions to develope. Its seems they were consantly getting bombarded to fix different professions, and with 32, that was no small task. Imagine trying to add content to 32 different profs. Thats just crazy. Hands down SWG had the best balance and combination of skill and class based game play i've ever seen. Nothing i have played has come close to it.
Obviously SWG pre-CU was a game ahead of its time.
Don't get me wrong, I hate that SOE and LA didn't have the balls to see it though and sold out. I do believe that if the original SWG had remained in place and content was added and minor buggs fixed, SWG's community would be huge by now. Way more than the 300k or so that played the original pre-CU.
Every game on the market today, and every one that follows will be a niche game. Think about it.
Originally posted by Boaz9 PvP in a skills based game is usually quite different. It usually becomes just a free for all, with the more organized team that focus fires coming out on top. There is no "preferred" target usually. Everyone is equally threatening, and equally proportionate part of the group. In a class based game, if you take out the enemies healer, and your healer is still up, unless you are just completely retarded its game over. In a skills based game if one person is taken out its not so much of a big deal. I absolutely loved SWG because you didn't need healers. Everyone could "heal" if they took some points in medic, you could have a designated healer, and it sometimes helped, but it was not necessary nor preferred. When you did PvE, you still had a tank, but any melee class would suffice and tanks could be swapped back and forth. As well, everyone could throw a heal on the tank, as well as the tank healing himself. Though he would usually run out of mind, which prevented soloing high end content. Anyway, as you can see I'm obviously biased towards SWG, but I really feel that Pre-CU had the best platform for an MMO, if they hadn't messed up with the whole jedi thing (btw i did have a ranked jedi, they were overpowered) and just fixed some balance issues, while adding story arcs and assisting player created content more, I would have played SWG till the servers went down, and I know most of the vets would have too. Well I'll stop babbling.
Excellent post I hope we will see a good "open" pvp system like this one day again.
I like hybrid systems, but I like when they lean more heavily towards skills than class. Makes PvP more interesting when you're not sure what to expect until you're already in it and gives a much better sense of individualism. Balance for smaller groups and raids if you think it'll make grouping more difficult and many seemingly unrelated problems will also suddenly solve themselves.
People complain that skillbased systems are harder to balance. This is true, but then again, is perfect balance really what we strive for? I mean, if that is what we want, why not just put everyone in a room and give them a knife and ten hitpoints? Naturally that would get boring, you want diversity and choice. At the same time, you do not want your game to become too complicated, or new players get confused and give up. Most gamers have short attention spans, they expect to be blown away in the first 5 minutes of playing or they give up. So that is what the business caters to. In order to make the skillbased system easy to understand for the gaming plebs, you put the skills into groups and give the groups names like Warrior, Mage and Priest, so that it is completely clear what you are getting. We would not want to confuse anyone, now would we?
So, basically, what is strived for is as much diversity as possible cast into an as simple mold as possible. This is a funky paradox that mmo developers have been fighting with for years now.
To be quite honest, I do not think that the choice of skill or class is biggest problem in the mmo industry today. I think it is the fact that devs end up listening to people who incessantly whine because they got killed twice and it made them cry and SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE CHAIN LIGHTNING OF DHOOM POISON-SNEAK COMBO!!! The sad fact that the people that whine are the ones that are listened to, because they shout the loudest, and are simultanously the worst players (and thus get killed a lot). Games get ruined this way, as any experienced gamer can tell you (and not just the mmos *cough*cs*cough*).
So, again, here's to hoping DFO comes out, and doesn't get carebeared by whiners.
I'm sure I had something else to say when I started writing this post. Oh well.
I've had an epiphany! People want simplicity, as I mentioned earlier, they do not want to wrap their tiny minds around huge skill systems the first thing they do when they start playing. That is why classes exist, so that it may seem simple at first, but in the end you still have to make more advanced choices (talents, specialisations etc).
So, here is my suggestion for a system that works both ways: Make a huge open-ended skill system, but then have your starting skills depend on the "Class" you pick, naming them appropriately i e "Warrior, Priest" and so on. See how easy that was? Now people think they are playing a classbased game, but after a while they realise they can increase any skill they want, making for lots of different combinations. By that time, they have a basic grasp on the game system, and are ready to make more advanced choises. Fooled you into thinking!
Level systems are way to vanilla and boring..Your stuck when you max out your chosen profession unless your start all over..And its been used to the point of needing put in retirement..I also find level based games overly easy way too easy..There is a fine line between too easy and too hard.SWG had the right mix just bad devs as an example..Level systems are to restrictive for my gaming taste i love options and freedom..
Skill systems offer the player to be whatever they choose and gives you choice..For me the ability to mix and match how i see fit is a plus.It adds content, and a sense of freedom.It also helps when you find your chosen build isnt to your liking or weak ect..You can changed without starting over, for those of us with busy lives a huge plus..
I also read were all the devs worry about balance.Well balance is a dream and someting i find boring..If im the same as everyone else no matter what i do whats the point to playing? I think when you put in strengths and weaknesses to a skill system you have great unbalance but in a good way..Ive seen many so called weak templates beat the supposed alpha ones..Its pointless to balance when no Dev team in the world can balance the person behind the keyboard..Give players plenty of options and the ablities to be better than everyone else within reason..A good risk reward system, and each profession having pluses and minuses works best IMO..Then you have a great system..See SWG before the crap downgrade....it had potential to be better than it became..
Originally posted by Mcgreag I am talking much older games than that, I started with PnP RPGs around 20 years ago. The d20 systems is a new system (2000, by then I had almost stopped playing PnP RPGS) that was released after the initial MMORPG wave. I would even go so far to say the the modern d20 systems are inspired by MMORPGs and not the other way around.
So you were playing PnP RPG's when you were seven?
Well D&D was out using the d20 in the 1970's, so before you were born. BUt that said I preferred Runequest and Call of Cthulu (both percentile skill systems) to d&d.
To the person who would play a MMORPG if it was based on d20 - that would be D&D Online.
That's not new at all EQ2, Rappelz, and FFF have that. Asian MMOs been doing that for a long time now. It doesnt solve any of the problems class based MMOs have as a matter of fact it actually exponentially compounds the problem. At each juncture players can possibly make a mistake they reget forever (pick the wrong specialization). Additonally, it adds a lot more grind because system like that, like I just mentioned, usually dont let you 'respec'. So, if you screw yourself with the wrong specilization guess what you have to reroll and work your way back up. It's just a fancy coating for extreme grind (which is why many Asian MMOs use this feature). The key thing to look for is determine if they let you redistribute your points at anytime (like switch from one specilization to another w/o penalty like guild wars).
Well i havent played any of the games you mentioned so I cant comment on that. However Tabula Rasa will let you clone your character so if you decide you totally stuffed up - you can always go back to an earlier clone. It also means you can take one of the other classes without redoing all the content in the game.
If you think of classes as professions then its not to different from real-life. I certainly dont change job every day. And yes I could learn new skills - but to be really proficient takes a lot of time or money. So most people in real life specialise.
Originally posted by Mcgreag I am talking much older games than that, I started with PnP RPGs around 20 years ago. The d20 systems is a new system (2000, by then I had almost stopped playing PnP RPGS) that was released after the initial MMORPG wave. I would even go so far to say the the modern d20 systems are inspired by MMORPGs and not the other way around.
So you were playing PnP RPG's when you were seven?
Well D&D was out using the d20 in the 1970's, so before you were born. BUt that said I preferred Runequest and Call of Cthulu (both percentile skill systems) to d&d.
To the person who would play a MMORPG if it was based on d20 - that would be D&D Online.
Correct I started playing PnP RPGs when I was seven, the first was a Swedish RPG called "Drakar och Demoner" (Dragons and Demons) it was skill based and held much of the same position in Sweden as D&D did in the US. Almost everyone started out with it and it also lived on in different versions thru the years.
Your statement about D&D being d20 based from the start brings me back to the question in my original post. Where D&D/AD&D the only PnP RPG played in the US? If the answer is yes then you can use the argument that MMORPGs are class/level based because of PnP RPGS, if the answer is no then you can't use that argument.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
When I was young playing RPGs, I played games like Runequest, Pendragon, Mechwarrior and others, most of them mods. I never understood the popularity of a game where you could not climb a tree or open a door unless you had a certain job description, it sounded so stupid and somehting only really small children could find fun or even in contact with an alternate reality.
Now... the whole MMO scene is built around a system where you cant climb a tree, open a door, or swing a club but not a sword if you are called this.. swing two axes skillfully but not even a single dagger if you are called this and so on and so forth.
It is really pushing MMOs down into some juvenile swamp where they never can find respect among mature people or people with a logical mindset, but clearly be built for the pewpew mentality of people that dont give a rats behind about logic or mimicing a real character in a real alternate universe. Simplified to the extreme, and maybe that is what most people want? Maybe... I just wish they would one day make some games for the people that can think as well and want some challenge in their games, and not only for those that think "brain activity" is an exotic sport that hasn't reached their part of the world yet.
I pity the masses... and they dont even understand why.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
When I was young playing RPGs, I played games like Runequest, Pendragon, Mechwarrior and others, most of them mods. I never understood the popularity of a game where you could not climb a tree or open a door unless you had a certain job description, it sounded so stupid and somehting only really small children could find fun or even in contact with an alternate reality. Now... the whole MMO scene is built around a system where you cant climb a tree, open a door, or swing a club but not a sword if you are called this.. swing two axes skillfully but not even a single dagger if you are called this and so on and so forth. It is really pushing MMOs down into some juvenile swamp where they never can find respect among mature people or people with a logical mindset, but clearly be built for the pewpew mentality of people that dont give a rats behind about logic or mimicing a real character in a real alternate universe. Simplified to the extreme, and maybe that is what most people want? Maybe... I just wish they would one day make some games for the people that can think as well and want some challenge in their games, and not only for those that think "brain activity" is an exotic sport that hasn't reached their part of the world yet. I pity the masses... and they dont even understand why.
Nice Mechwarrior reference. Anyone remember Mechwarrior 3? Probably the absolute best mech customization. Down to every last heat sink.. then came Mechwarrior 4, which had 10% of the customization of MW 3 but prettier graphics... Step in the wrong direction.
Problem is that MMO's have become too popular of a genre, so they need to be made easier to understand, hence, cookie-cutter classes and templates etc.
The real winner will be a game that lets you pick a starting "class" if you want to, like someone said before, yet be able to change every skill / attribute once you learn more about the game if you want to, or stick to those provided by your pre-made "class."
Hide a deep, customizable skill based system inside an easy to access class system. Wouldn't be hard at all. Heck, original UO did it.
Skills for me. Nothing to date compares to my experiences and customization with the skills system in Asheron's Call. There is a lot of thought, planning, and testing in a skills based system but the reward is that you can really customize your character to the way you want it.
Skills for me. Nothing to date compares to my experiences and customization with the skills system in Asheron's Call. There is a lot of thought, planning, and testing in a skills based system but the reward is that you can really customize your character to the way you want it.
I second that. Asheron's Call is still the one that calls. . .but I've been there done that. . .time for the next Asheron's Call. Been plenty of the next Everquest, but no Asheron's Call.
That's not new at all EQ2, Rappelz, and FFF have that. Asian MMOs been doing that for a long time now. It doesnt solve any of the problems class based MMOs have as a matter of fact it actually exponentially compounds the problem. At each juncture players can possibly make a mistake they reget forever (pick the wrong specialization). Additonally, it adds a lot more grind because system like that, like I just mentioned, usually dont let you 'respec'. So, if you screw yourself with the wrong specilization guess what you have to reroll and work your way back up. It's just a fancy coating for extreme grind (which is why many Asian MMOs use this feature). The key thing to look for is determine if they let you redistribute your points at anytime (like switch from one specilization to another w/o penalty like guild wars).
Well i havent played any of the games you mentioned so I cant comment on that. However Tabula Rasa will let you clone your character so if you decide you totally stuffed up - you can always go back to an earlier clone. It also means you can take one of the other classes without redoing all the content in the game.
If you think of classes as professions then its not to different from real-life. I certainly dont change job every day. And yes I could learn new skills - but to be really proficient takes a lot of time or money. So most people in real life specialise.
Making a "clone" of your toon somewhere along his progression still does not fix the issue actually. Put it this way, I "clone" my toon at Tier 2, then I proceed to Tier 4. I still have to progress to 2 tiers to get my clone to Tier 4. It's only a sleight improvement to the Asian MMO tier systems. ITs really just a concept we've always had in single player games. I save my toon before I make a difficult choice. That way, if I screw myself, I can always revert to a safe state. I will of course follow their game as it progresses but from what I've been reading I'm not seeing much innovation at all in character progression. Its still forcing me along the 'developers' vision of how I should play and its restricting my choices to a small subset. It limits player creativity, freedom, and replay value. However, from a financial standpoint, they stand to gain a lot because a person that reverts to an old capture will surely have to replay through content. The gamer is still being penalized for doing something we all do naturally as human beings- experiment and explore various combinations.
Now, if I revert to a Tier 2 clone from Tier 4 and I get to "keep" my experience points and apply it to my clone, that would be flexible at least. It would still restrict my freedom and not be any different from the Class based system we have all seen before but it would be more flexible then EQ2, Rappelz, etc
And btw in real life normally a person can do several different jobs and switch to a different specialization at will. But what Class based games have done is "trap" us into a defined role. Think social caste system (like ancient Sparta)- at birth you are told you are a soldier and you cannot switch professions. That's what Class based games do. In Tabula Rasa, what they have done is tell you- you can only be good at this one specialization at a time. You cannot cross train and be capable of handling multiple different types of jobs well. Maybe you are not as good as a specilist but still a soldier can be a medic. That is real life, Tabula Rasa is nothing like real life. Humans are not the one dimensional beings these Class Based games try to confine us too.
Dont get me wrong- I loved being Class Based in games like Marvel Ultimate Alliance. Its good role playing when my powers resemble what spiderman is like in the comics. But in MMOs I am not spiderman, I should have the freedom to dictate what path my avatar should take. Why should I be confined to what the Developer think my Warrior should be?
I am talking much older games than that, I started with PnP RPGs around 20 years ago. The d20 systems is a new system (2000, by then I had almost stopped playing PnP RPGS) that was released after the initial MMORPG wave. I would even go so far to say the the modern d20 systems are inspired by MMORPGs and not the other way around.
So you were playing PnP RPG's when you were seven?
Well D&D was out using the d20 in the 1970's, so before you were born. BUt that said I preferred Runequest and Call of Cthulu (both percentile skill systems) to d&d.
To the person who would play a MMORPG if it was based on d20 - that would be D&D Online.
I believe Mcgreag was referring to the "d20" system, which is the abstract form of TSR/Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro's third edition D&D ruleset... not the use of a 20 sided die, which is almost as old as I am.
I think many people played PnP RPG's at a young age. As a child, you enjoy the game for the fantasy. As a teenager, you refuse to enjoy the game because you're trying to become old. As an adult, you enjoy the game again for the company... a few seem to enjoy it for the rule lawyering.
Originally posted by quixadhal I believe Mcgreag was referring to the "d20" system, which is the abstract form of TSR/Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro's third edition D&D ruleset... not the use of a 20 sided die, which is almost as old as I am. :)I think many people played PnP RPG's at a young age. As a child, you enjoy the game for the fantasy. As a teenager, you refuse to enjoy the game because you're trying to become old. As an adult, you enjoy the game again for the company... a few seem to enjoy it for the rule lawyering.
Hehe, I continued through my teens, I more or less stopped when I was 20. Found I where more interested in board and table top games. Advanced Civilization and Settlers of Catan and stuff like that.
Only play short adventures at cons these day.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
I know a lot of people hate the game but have we considered Anarchy Online as a skill vs class system? I mean the graphics aren't the best and it's launch was fatal. Recently on a whim my roomate and I tried it out. They've added some new things to specialize your character. If you can get around the anamation and graphics. the sould of the game is very RPG friendly.
Your statement about D&D being d20 based from the start brings me back to the question in my original post. Where D&D/AD&D the only PnP RPG played in the US? If the answer is yes then you can use the argument that MMORPGs are class/level based because of PnP RPGS, if the answer is no then you can't use that argument.
Well I cant speak for the U.S as I am in Australia - but given we follow U.S trends fairly closely I would have to say yes - D&D/AD&D was the most popular PnP RPG played in the U.S as it was in Australia. School kids would play it on the train on the way to school.
On clones in Tabula Rasa - the idea of clones is to minimise the amount of content you have to play through if you want to try a different class - thus hopefully extending the life of the game by letting people play multiple classes without having to repeat all the content. The further down the tree you are - the more content you can skip. Unlike say Guild Wars - loved the game and I loved experimenting with different builds - but boy did I get sick of playing through the same content over and over again.
I liked the PnP Runequest system - where you started with a profession - which gave you the basic skills you had learnt upto that point in your life - then you just did whatever you wanted - so you learnt to fight with a sword by picking it up and using it. I dislike the D&D type system where a warrior picks up any weapon and is equally good with it.
I am more likely to be interested in a pure skill-based game than a pure class-based game, all other things being equal. Classes are simply predetermined boxes. I deal too much already with people putting other people in boxes. I'd like to try something else.
I'm sure the boxes will emerge in skill-based games in the form of templates. People are incapabable of not thinking in boxes. It's just that I'd like to be able to create some new boxes rather than putting up with what someone has already created for me.
The problem of active players maximizing every set of skills can be dealt with quite easily. First, make skills degrade somewhat if not practiced frequently. Second, make maximization operate on something like an asymptotic basis. Pure asymptotes are not popular, because players want to be the best that is possible, and that is what many players pay for, never mind that such a thing is not possible in real life. A hidden asymptote is more palatable, particularly if the "unusable" experience drains into some cool attribute that does not affect basic player effectiveness in the same way as skill level does.
I tend to favour the idea of a Skill based system. I seems to me that there should be an element of keeping your hand in with all the skills. ie if you don't use a skill for a period of time you lose practice in that skill. You should never completely forget a skill, but on the other hand, you should never be able to level a skill up to max then ignore it and start on the next skill without getting out of practice and becoming less effective at the ignored skill. That way you become good at the skills you are using regularly and average or bad at any skill you haven't used for a while.
For the sake of this argument.. i wonder how a game like www.darkfallonline sounds to you all. No. .not what it HAS done or what IS complete..i'm talknig about the concepts behind it (as it's not even i nbeta yet). IS this a game that you'd say yay or nay to based on the system in place. I could write it all out for you... but i wonder what impressinos are. You may have to go through the news section for more detailed views of the game.
Comments
A game such as CoV falls into a "class" game, however, it has the main advantage of both systems!
You have a choice of primary, a choice of secondaries and these limit you as in a class, however, the combination you can make allow for great diversity. Also, it has alternatives power, so everyone can "taunt", or "Rez", or "TP a friend". Granted, taunt from the alternatives power will always be weaker then the taunt of a primary or secondary, the Rez effect is weaker then most rez in the game and so on (there is 1 rez which is weaker in a secondary that I can think of, yet, you can pick right away, no prime requirement, it is a filling power IMO for that line), however, it allow some diversity, best of both world IMO. Anyone can heal...but if you want to be a good healer, it take a real dedication to it, which is extremely close to Real Life in the sense that very few peoples get past a point without "becoming member of a class".
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What a great article. Alot of great feedback too. From where i sit and from what i've read here, this means that SWG pre-CU days was what everyone is looking for. A few mentioned grinding was forced in SWG. Wrong. It was the preferred method but there was tons to do to earn XP and get your skills up. I understand the delema that SOE had with the game. Too many professions to develope. Its seems they were consantly getting bombarded to fix different professions, and with 32, that was no small task. Imagine trying to add content to 32 different profs. Thats just crazy. Hands down SWG had the best balance and combination of skill and class based game play i've ever seen. Nothing i have played has come close to it.
Obviously SWG pre-CU was a game ahead of its time.
Don't get me wrong, I hate that SOE and LA didn't have the balls to see it though and sold out. I do believe that if the original SWG had remained in place and content was added and minor buggs fixed, SWG's community would be huge by now. Way more than the 300k or so that played the original pre-CU.
Every game on the market today, and every one that follows will be a niche game. Think about it.
Excellent post I hope we will see a good "open" pvp system like this one day again.
People complain that skillbased systems are harder to balance. This is true, but then again, is perfect balance really what we strive for? I mean, if that is what we want, why not just put everyone in a room and give them a knife and ten hitpoints? Naturally that would get boring, you want diversity and choice. At the same time, you do not want your game to become too complicated, or new players get confused and give up. Most gamers have short attention spans, they expect to be blown away in the first 5 minutes of playing or they give up. So that is what the business caters to. In order to make the skillbased system easy to understand for the gaming plebs, you put the skills into groups and give the groups names like Warrior, Mage and Priest, so that it is completely clear what you are getting. We would not want to confuse anyone, now would we?
So, basically, what is strived for is as much diversity as possible cast into an as simple mold as possible. This is a funky paradox that mmo developers have been fighting with for years now.
To be quite honest, I do not think that the choice of skill or class is biggest problem in the mmo industry today. I think it is the fact that devs end up listening to people who incessantly whine because they got killed twice and it made them cry and SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE CHAIN LIGHTNING OF DHOOM POISON-SNEAK COMBO!!! The sad fact that the people that whine are the ones that are listened to, because they shout the loudest, and are simultanously the worst players (and thus get killed a lot). Games get ruined this way, as any experienced gamer can tell you (and not just the mmos *cough*cs*cough*).
So, again, here's to hoping DFO comes out, and doesn't get carebeared by whiners.
I'm sure I had something else to say when I started writing this post. Oh well.
[DTE]
So, here is my suggestion for a system that works both ways: Make a huge open-ended skill system, but then have your starting skills depend on the "Class" you pick, naming them appropriately i e "Warrior, Priest" and so on. See how easy that was? Now people think they are playing a classbased game, but after a while they realise they can increase any skill they want, making for lots of different combinations. By that time, they have a basic grasp on the game system, and are ready to make more advanced choises. Fooled you into thinking!
[DTE]
so i make it short
i do not want to be locked up in a class
https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/Bleakmage
Level systems are way to vanilla and boring..Your stuck when you max out your chosen profession unless your start all over..And its been used to the point of needing put in retirement..I also find level based games overly easy way too easy..There is a fine line between too easy and too hard.SWG had the right mix just bad devs as an example..Level systems are to restrictive for my gaming taste i love options and freedom..
Skill systems offer the player to be whatever they choose and gives you choice..For me the ability to mix and match how i see fit is a plus.It adds content, and a sense of freedom.It also helps when you find your chosen build isnt to your liking or weak ect..You can changed without starting over, for those of us with busy lives a huge plus..
I also read were all the devs worry about balance.Well balance is a dream and someting i find boring..If im the same as everyone else no matter what i do whats the point to playing? I think when you put in strengths and weaknesses to a skill system you have great unbalance but in a good way..Ive seen many so called weak templates beat the supposed alpha ones..Its pointless to balance when no Dev team in the world can balance the person behind the keyboard..Give players plenty of options and the ablities to be better than everyone else within reason..A good risk reward system, and each profession having pluses and minuses works best IMO..Then you have a great system..See SWG before the crap downgrade....it had potential to be better than it became..
So you were playing PnP RPG's when you were seven?
Well D&D was out using the d20 in the 1970's, so before you were born. BUt that said I preferred Runequest and Call of Cthulu (both percentile skill systems) to d&d.
To the person who would play a MMORPG if it was based on d20 - that would be D&D Online.
Well i havent played any of the games you mentioned so I cant comment on that. However Tabula Rasa will let you clone your character so if you decide you totally stuffed up - you can always go back to an earlier clone. It also means you can take one of the other classes without redoing all the content in the game.
If you think of classes as professions then its not to different from real-life. I certainly dont change job every day. And yes I could learn new skills - but to be really proficient takes a lot of time or money. So most people in real life specialise.
[DTE]
Your statement about D&D being d20 based from the start brings me back to the question in my original post. Where D&D/AD&D the only PnP RPG played in the US? If the answer is yes then you can use the argument that MMORPGs are class/level based because of PnP RPGS, if the answer is no then you can't use that argument.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
When I was young playing RPGs, I played games like Runequest, Pendragon, Mechwarrior and others, most of them mods. I never understood the popularity of a game where you could not climb a tree or open a door unless you had a certain job description, it sounded so stupid and somehting only really small children could find fun or even in contact with an alternate reality.
Now... the whole MMO scene is built around a system where you cant climb a tree, open a door, or swing a club but not a sword if you are called this.. swing two axes skillfully but not even a single dagger if you are called this and so on and so forth.
It is really pushing MMOs down into some juvenile swamp where they never can find respect among mature people or people with a logical mindset, but clearly be built for the pewpew mentality of people that dont give a rats behind about logic or mimicing a real character in a real alternate universe. Simplified to the extreme, and maybe that is what most people want? Maybe... I just wish they would one day make some games for the people that can think as well and want some challenge in their games, and not only for those that think "brain activity" is an exotic sport that hasn't reached their part of the world yet.
I pity the masses... and they dont even understand why.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Nice Mechwarrior reference. Anyone remember Mechwarrior 3? Probably the absolute best mech customization. Down to every last heat sink.. then came Mechwarrior 4, which had 10% of the customization of MW 3 but prettier graphics... Step in the wrong direction.
Problem is that MMO's have become too popular of a genre, so they need to be made easier to understand, hence, cookie-cutter classes and templates etc.
The real winner will be a game that lets you pick a starting "class" if you want to, like someone said before, yet be able to change every skill / attribute once you learn more about the game if you want to, or stick to those provided by your pre-made "class."
Hide a deep, customizable skill based system inside an easy to access class system. Wouldn't be hard at all. Heck, original UO did it.
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Well i havent played any of the games you mentioned so I cant comment on that. However Tabula Rasa will let you clone your character so if you decide you totally stuffed up - you can always go back to an earlier clone. It also means you can take one of the other classes without redoing all the content in the game.
If you think of classes as professions then its not to different from real-life. I certainly dont change job every day. And yes I could learn new skills - but to be really proficient takes a lot of time or money. So most people in real life specialise.
Making a "clone" of your toon somewhere along his progression still does not fix the issue actually. Put it this way, I "clone" my toon at Tier 2, then I proceed to Tier 4. I still have to progress to 2 tiers to get my clone to Tier 4. It's only a sleight improvement to the Asian MMO tier systems. ITs really just a concept we've always had in single player games. I save my toon before I make a difficult choice. That way, if I screw myself, I can always revert to a safe state. I will of course follow their game as it progresses but from what I've been reading I'm not seeing much innovation at all in character progression. Its still forcing me along the 'developers' vision of how I should play and its restricting my choices to a small subset. It limits player creativity, freedom, and replay value. However, from a financial standpoint, they stand to gain a lot because a person that reverts to an old capture will surely have to replay through content. The gamer is still being penalized for doing something we all do naturally as human beings- experiment and explore various combinations.
Now, if I revert to a Tier 2 clone from Tier 4 and I get to "keep" my experience points and apply it to my clone, that would be flexible at least. It would still restrict my freedom and not be any different from the Class based system we have all seen before but it would be more flexible then EQ2, Rappelz, etc
And btw in real life normally a person can do several different jobs and switch to a different specialization at will. But what Class based games have done is "trap" us into a defined role. Think social caste system (like ancient Sparta)- at birth you are told you are a soldier and you cannot switch professions. That's what Class based games do. In Tabula Rasa, what they have done is tell you- you can only be good at this one specialization at a time. You cannot cross train and be capable of handling multiple different types of jobs well. Maybe you are not as good as a specilist but still a soldier can be a medic. That is real life, Tabula Rasa is nothing like real life. Humans are not the one dimensional beings these Class Based games try to confine us too.
Dont get me wrong- I loved being Class Based in games like Marvel Ultimate Alliance. Its good role playing when my powers resemble what spiderman is like in the comics. But in MMOs I am not spiderman, I should have the freedom to dictate what path my avatar should take. Why should I be confined to what the Developer think my Warrior should be?
So you were playing PnP RPG's when you were seven?
Well D&D was out using the d20 in the 1970's, so before you were born. BUt that said I preferred Runequest and Call of Cthulu (both percentile skill systems) to d&d.
To the person who would play a MMORPG if it was based on d20 - that would be D&D Online.
I believe Mcgreag was referring to the "d20" system, which is the abstract form of TSR/Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro's third edition D&D ruleset... not the use of a 20 sided die, which is almost as old as I am.
I think many people played PnP RPG's at a young age. As a child, you enjoy the game for the fantasy. As a teenager, you refuse to enjoy the game because you're trying to become old. As an adult, you enjoy the game again for the company... a few seem to enjoy it for the rule lawyering.
Only play short adventures at cons these day.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
I know a lot of people hate the game but have we considered Anarchy Online as a skill vs class system? I mean the graphics aren't the best and it's launch was fatal. Recently on a whim my roomate and I tried it out. They've added some new things to specialize your character. If you can get around the anamation and graphics. the sould of the game is very RPG friendly.
Well I cant speak for the U.S as I am in Australia - but given we follow U.S trends fairly closely I would have to say yes - D&D/AD&D was the most popular PnP RPG played in the U.S as it was in Australia. School kids would play it on the train on the way to school.
On clones in Tabula Rasa - the idea of clones is to minimise the amount of content you have to play through if you want to try a different class - thus hopefully extending the life of the game by letting people play multiple classes without having to repeat all the content. The further down the tree you are - the more content you can skip. Unlike say Guild Wars - loved the game and I loved experimenting with different builds - but boy did I get sick of playing through the same content over and over again.
I liked the PnP Runequest system - where you started with a profession - which gave you the basic skills you had learnt upto that point in your life - then you just did whatever you wanted - so you learnt to fight with a sword by picking it up and using it. I dislike the D&D type system where a warrior picks up any weapon and is equally good with it.
I am more likely to be interested in a pure skill-based game than a pure class-based game, all other things being equal. Classes are simply predetermined boxes. I deal too much already with people putting other people in boxes. I'd like to try something else.
I'm sure the boxes will emerge in skill-based games in the form of templates. People are incapabable of not thinking in boxes. It's just that I'd like to be able to create some new boxes rather than putting up with what someone has already created for me.
The problem of active players maximizing every set of skills can be dealt with quite easily. First, make skills degrade somewhat if not practiced frequently. Second, make maximization operate on something like an asymptotic basis. Pure asymptotes are not popular, because players want to be the best that is possible, and that is what many players pay for, never mind that such a thing is not possible in real life. A hidden asymptote is more palatable, particularly if the "unusable" experience drains into some cool attribute that does not affect basic player effectiveness in the same way as skill level does.