Combat 'squishiness' question

markyturnip

Have been playing this game in beta for a few hours; as everyone says the graphics are very pleasant, performance is good, I also like the general atmosphere. It is hard to pin it down, but the taverns feel more medieval than Wow, to which everyone is comparing this game; the sounds are great, and the smells... (OK, not the smells).

Also, if the game continues with the kind of cut-scenes in th eitroductory instances this game will certainly be worth spending some time in. It may not be sand-box, but it is fun. (Then again, I loved Call of Duty 3, which is one of the most linear games on the market right now.)

One of my concerns however, is the 'squishiness' of the combat. A button lights up, I click it - sometimes it works immediately, and sometimes it takes a while to go off (perhaps because it is waiting for the auto-attack to complete?). Whatever it is, it just doesn't feel very responsive. So even more than wow, I eventually just find myself pressing all the buttons available in the hope that one of them will go off... and it seems fairly random which one.

Is this a common experience? I have played a lot of MMOs, FPS, RTS and any other kind of game you care to mention, and this has really struck me about this game. I have been playing a captain.

 

Kyleran

As you noted, there is a timing issue, and it seems to be related to the auto attack....here's what a guildmate of mine ) posted on how to maximize your DPS...



This mainly applies to melee classes but everyone can use the concept to increase thier DPS.



In LOTRO there are 2 ways to deliver damage to a target.



1) Use auto-attack. The weapon will attack based on its speed and will remain constant as long as you do not perform any power using attacks. Steady damage over time.



2) Power using abilities/attacks. You can use a power based attack at anytime, as long as the attacks individual cooldown is not active. You are only limited to your total powerpool in the number of power using moves that you can perform.



Now, to maximize DPS you will want to coordinate both of these types of attacks. To do this, you need to watch your character closely. When you are auto-attacking, you will perform a swing type animation. As soon as you see your character start to enter this swing, press a power attack button. This will allow for the auto-attack to complete its swing cycle, landing the auto-attack damage and instantly follow it up with your power using attacks damage.



If you do not use this method, you are actually cheating yourself out of quite a bit of damage potential. Whenever you press a button for the power using ability/skill, it actually resets/interupts your auto attack delay. So if you only spam power using attacks constantly you will hardly ever even attempt an autoattack swing, thus losing all that damage.



So basically, you will want a weapon that has a good attack speed. Too fast of a weapon will hurt your DPS a bit because it may attack so fast your power using abilities are all still on cooldown. Also a really fast weapon usually has lower max damage, which is less DPS on power based moves/attacks. (power moves often calculate by using weapon damage+ #).



At the same time, a huge damage weapon with a slow attack speed will hurt you as well. You will be waiting too long on those auto-attack animations to start up before you use a power based ability.



So in my finding, it is best to use a good middle ground weapon as far as speed/damage is concerned. Find a speed that compliments the number of power based attacks you wish to use during combat, while at the same time do not cause you to wait for cooldowns.



The perfect weapon situation would be something that always allows you to have a couple power attacks available at all times, while autoattacking fairly fast.

Decadentia

Well, it sounds to me like you haven't noticed the "queueing" feature in the game. Its definitely not as fast paced as most would want. If you end up pressing every button, what happens is, you will use one ability, and queue another. I don't know whether or not to go into specifics, because you may already know this.



Just in case though, try in game performing an attack and then pressing another button, you will notice a slight...glow/fadeness on that macro, indicating it is now queued.



I myself play a guardian, and I believe since Guardians have quite a few responsive abilities, I don't notice the slow combat as much.

Dulain

Your attack skills will go off depending on the speed of your weapon. Yes, it seems to wait for the auto-attack to go off between attack skills as well. The attacks also have animations associated with them that also slow this process down a bit. There are some attacks that are fast though. They usually say so in their description, but these attacks are instant when you hit them. For a Captain, Devastating Blow is an instant attack.

Hoobley_deleted

I found it to be like this too.



One explanation a friend proposed was that the 'sluggishness' may come into play more with fellowship abilities... I understand groups can put combos together.



Never experienced this much so it's just hearsay, perhaps someone else would be more qualified to give a suggestion as to if there is a reason for it or if it's just clunky.

fiontar

Originally posted by Kyleran

As you noted, there is a timing issue, and it seems to be related to the auto attack....here's what a guildmate of mine ) posted on how to maximize your DPS...



This mainly applies to melee classes but everyone can use the concept to increase thier DPS.



In LOTRO there are 2 ways to deliver damage to a target.



1) Use auto-attack. The weapon will attack based on its speed and will remain constant as long as you do not perform any power using attacks. Steady damage over time.



2) Power using abilities/attacks. You can use a power based attack at anytime, as long as the attacks individual cooldown is not active. You are only limited to your total powerpool in the number of power using moves that you can perform.



Now, to maximize DPS you will want to coordinate both of these types of attacks. To do this, you need to watch your character closely. When you are auto-attacking, you will perform a swing type animation. As soon as you see your character start to enter this swing, press a power attack button. This will allow for the auto-attack to complete its swing cycle, landing the auto-attack damage and instantly follow it up with your power using attacks damage.



If you do not use this method, you are actually cheating yourself out of quite a bit of damage potential. Whenever you press a button for the power using ability/skill, it actually resets/interupts your auto attack delay. So if you only spam power using attacks constantly you will hardly ever even attempt an autoattack swing, thus losing all that damage.



So basically, you will want a weapon that has a good attack speed. Too fast of a weapon will hurt your DPS a bit because it may attack so fast your power using abilities are all still on cooldown. Also a really fast weapon usually has lower max damage, which is less DPS on power based moves/attacks. (power moves often calculate by using weapon damage+ #).



At the same time, a huge damage weapon with a slow attack speed will hurt you as well. You will be waiting too long on those auto-attack animations to start up before you use a power based ability.



So in my finding, it is best to use a good middle ground weapon as far as speed/damage is concerned. Find a speed that compliments the number of power based attacks you wish to use during combat, while at the same time do not cause you to wait for cooldowns.



The perfect weapon situation would be something that always allows you to have a couple power attacks available at all times, while autoattacking fairly fast.

Thank your friend for writing this and I thank you for posting it. This is completely true and once you understand it makes combat a lot more enjoyable IMO. Not only does it relieve frustrations over the queue and delayed feel of combat, but it makes combat more active on the part of the player. Timing is necassary for the smoothest, most efficient combat, so paying attention and perfecting your timing makes combat more interactive.



Also, with every class I've played, as you get high enough in level to start having a number of skill choices, order of execution and situational adjustement to the order of execution, along with the addition of skills that are only usable in response to certain conditions, makes combat a lot more interesting if you actually take the time and effort to perfect your play. Sure, if you are lazy you can autoattack or just mash the same buttons over and over in a never ending queue, but combat is more effective and more enjoyable if you make the effort to get good at it.



I was a little iffy on the combat based on first impressions, but now I'm very impressed and look forward to the challanges new skills bring in shaking up my tactics as I progress.

killerwig

Originally posted by markyturnip


Have been playing this game in beta for a few hours; as everyone says the graphics are very pleasant, performance is good, I also like the general atmosphere. It is hard to pin it down, but the taverns feel more medieval than Wow, to which everyone is comparing this game; the sounds are great, and the smells... (OK, not the smells). 

You obviously don't have the LOTRO "scratch n' sniff" game pad. Just don't use it around Orcs or in the bogs.

Gandalf has a strange smell about him when he smokes though... kind of strong and almost flowery... reminds me of a coffee shop in Amsterdam for some reason.

markyturnip

This is helpful stuff; I did surmise there was a queueing system but I guess I did not fully realise the impact it would have on gameplay with my big two-handed sword. So the weapon speed comment is well taken...

I guess I just need to get used to a long swing time (coz I love playing a fiery red-headed captain babe with a two-hander... I am not ashamed to admit!).

Maybe when I get a herald going I won't notice it so much, as I will have a pet to be looking after as well.