Sorry, but i dont see any "independant" dev teams breaking the pidgeon hole mold either.
See, unlike what many people and almost ALL devs currently think, a new IP ,even with a new idea or two slapped over the same old
crap is really not new.Its really just the same old crap with a different wrapper.
You want to see the next MMO that gets 2 mil or more players happy enough to stay with that game,look for the one that removes the pidgeon holes.
Raid only content -GONE
Guild only content- GONE
Group only content- GONE
PvP only content - GONE
PvE only content - GONE
Item centric carrot design- GONE
Class system- GONE
Single world experience- GONE (this probably needs some explaining.So here it is.A MMO needs to have parts of its lands that apply different rules of behavior than other parts:
-by player and npcs
and
-environment :like artic regions that require players to generate warmth in some way OR desolate deserts that require a player to carry the required water just to survive -IE make the environment actually count for something other than eye candy.
AND those different exps need to be alterable.So players can create wells or water storage spots in the deserts-etc....
You want to see the next game that shows just how sad the current games have done subscription wise, find the one that breaks the above mentioned molded features.
At that point , you may just find out, youve also found the MMO that really brings something new to the industry.
Sorry, but i dont see any "independant" dev teams breaking the pidgeon hole mold either.
See, unlike what many people and almost ALL devs currently think, a new IP ,even with a new idea or two slapped over the same old
crap is really not new.Its really just the same old crap with a different wrapper.
You want to see the next MMO that gets 2 mil or more players happy enough to stay with that game,look for the one that removes the pidgeon holes.
Raid only content -GONE
Guild only content- GONE
Group only content- GONE
PvP only content - GONE
PvE only content - GONE
Item centric carrot design- GONE
Class system- GONE
Single world experience- GONE (this probably needs some explaining.So here it is.A MMO needs to have parts of its lands that apply different rules of behavior than other parts:
-by player and npcs
and
-environment :like artic regions that require players to generate warmth in some way OR desolate deserts that require a player to carry the required water just to survive -IE make the environment actually count for something other than eye candy.
AND those different exps need to be alterable.So players can create wells or water storage spots in the deserts-etc....
You want to see the next game that shows just how sad the current games have done subscription wise, find the one that breaks the above mentioned molded features.
At that point , you may just find out, youve also found the MMO that really brings something new to the industry.
Just my opinion of course, but I think you'll also have one more thing GONE. All your players.
It's true, there haven't been many good MMORPGs released lately. Auto Assault was boring ( I don't really want to play a car), same trouble with EVE (I dont' want to play a spaceship) and Vanguard is, well we could spend pages on why Vanguard sucks.
However, oftentimes I don't think players understand what an MMORPG is, and they really want to play something else. That's fine, just go play it already. You want more action, more player "skillz" than character skills, no levels? It's a called an FPS. Go buy one. I suggest Call of Duty 2 or Battlefield 2142, both very fun games.
An RPG is about building a character, using character skills (not your reflexes), and it doesn't matter whether you're building a character with levels or skills, either way it's a game of progression. You add to that an end game, either PvP, or Raiding, or both. That's an MMORPG and it can be done poorly, or done well. If you want to argue that an MMORPG is done poorly, and you want one that's done well, I'm with you. If you're actually looking for an FPS game, don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS.
I could say the next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units, you don't take over territory, and you don't kill the enemy. But then it wouldn't really be an RTS anymore, would it?
hello every one, i have been thinking about this topic alot recently becuase IMO there isnt a "good" mmo out there atm(remeber this is just my opion). The only MMO that can probaly counter my complaint is....yes the ever popular 'WOW" now i know half of you at this point are saying "OMG..WOW thats for Total n00bs...blizz sucksx" w/e w/e. The other half of you are probaly the fan boys that are saying "YAAAHH DOOD WOW ROX IT OWNS EVER THING". HOWEVER, the truth is weather you are like the game or not...its a WELL MADE game. Easy to start, very social, VERY addicting, and of course very advertised. Yes people blizzard did a good job advertising there game (thats one of the reasons so many people play it). These features of the game make it hard for other companies to make origanal ideas. So with this whole WOW craze many of the games seem kind of dull, take lotro for instance i the game can pretty much put you to sleep...its just that un origanal! ( the only thing new is monster play and making music...wait didnt they get monster play from a older game?). Now i can go on and on about all these lame mmos on the market right now but i rather not . Although! there might be some hope for games like WAR or AoC pushing the game tword very ingaging pvp insted of just GRIND FEST-NESS. Just my 2 cents PS: voice YOUR opionion ...No flames .....and yes i did play WOW for 2 years along as many other mmos(check the profile) Oh and sorry for spelling errors
In war you will level from pvp, get coainage , and lootz. Good enough for me ... along with area quests, and everythign else i hope Mythic will end up putting into the game.
I was very sad to hear it will only be a 2 sided fight tho. for shame
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Though noted a few times, I thaught I might give a bit more info. Personaly my freinds and I are greatly looking forward to a game with all those things we've been missing since Ultima Online. While I KNOW every time a new game comes along that hope that it won't be another EQ or WoW clone with waterd down gameplay to make it easy and "accessable" to the unwashed of the MMOG market, I think this one really may have some possiblities.
I posted this link in the actual Pirates of the Burning Sea section, but for those of you who might have missed it, I suggest taking a read of this ~~> www.whitewolfclan.net/pobs/review.htm It's a very very well done review of the upcomming game by a prominent member of the PoBS community. Also if you perfer to find information on your own, MMORPG.com has a nice section itself as well as the main page for the game, located here www.burningsea.com
Personaly I don't think it's the lack of idea or skill. It's become more an issue of preasure to make money as soon as possible to cover the massive cost of game production on the main stage. I belive that we can trust in small indi corp's to still try and bring new and innovative things to the table. Look at UO, it was an extreamly crazy idea for it's time. A game where people are going to have to PAY to play it. Who on earth would have thaught that was going to work. But as the past 12 years of MMOG market has shown, it wasn't so much nuts as visionary. Just remember, sometimes someone makes the right mistake and things fall into place.
There are plenty of good MMO ideas, but unfortunatly, people are to busy drooling over Lotro and WAR.
From the person who is siding with Sword of the New World ... Dam if you think LotRO is lame, it might be better than i thought it would be.
Ehh one more for ya, Asian MMORPGs all suck . they are like Yahoo games to the 2nd power. Of course lots of people play yahoo games for mindless wasting of time, so maybe your on to something.
Tho i know your looking into Aion and that looks ok , rofl i love this quote
"
Q.
There was a lot of talk (in Korea) about the character design.
A.
Since the show at E3, there were some complaints that the characters looked too westernized.
"
So the problem is the characters are not 3 feet tall and colored using primary colors only.
Rofl ok thast a joke i have played quite a few asian mmos and well a few have been some of the best appering ... of course i looked liek 200 other peopel in the game , but i looked bad ass.
OK im sorry about this little hate speach , but whenever anyoen says ther are peanty of good MMO ideas but....
YOU LOSE why becuase you didn't list any , well i would gather you think Aion is a great idea etc and it does look good, but i have not seen an orginal idea in it yet.
Personally i think im goign to drop my plans to AOC some and take up PotBS becuase its pretty fresh.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Im sorry Gillvane, but as far i can see you'd have trouble being more wrong.
Pidgeon holes reduce the potential amount of players who might possibly be happy playing a game.
Removing pidgeon holes increase said potential.
Ill explian it using made up figures.Now remember these figures are arbitrary and only exist in this post to give reference.
Pidgeon holes:
Raiding content- lets say 10% of the potential game population likes this pidgoen hole.(aagain remember arbitrary number)With this pidgeon hole, you now can make 10% of the potential population happy.WHAT about the other 90%? Well the simple truth is, by putting this pidgeon hole in your game , youev just given the other pottential 90% a reason to dislike your game.
Group only content- lets say 40% of the potential game population likes this pidgeon hole.(again remember arbitary number).So youve just given 60% of the potential game population a reason to not like your game.
PvP primary endgame- lets say 40% of the potential game population likes this pidgeon hole.(again remember arbitrary number)So youve just given 60% of the potential game population a reason to not like your game.
So there we have 3 pidgeon holes commonly embraced by the devs and their tunnel vision approach.
NOW that make up another number and see how this all plays out.Again this numbe ris abritary and onyl serves as a refernce point to help you to understand the concept they are being used in.
Lets say this otehr number is Potential customer base and it equals 8 million players.
So we start out with 8 million players.The first pidgeon hole here can give 7.2 million of that total, a reason to dislike your game.You know have a resaonable potential of 800k.
Now we apply the next pidgeon hole.now weve given another 60% a reason to feel alienated and dislike the game.So the potential customer base takes a hit yet again.Becoming say 480k that have not yet been given a design reason to dislike your product.
Now we apply the third pidgeon hole.another 60% have reason to dislike your game out o fthe 480k, which leaves circa 200k.
See how this works.
You have to remember that the total possible subcriber base is a finite number that acts as a base. And that everytime you add into your game a reason to seperate this base into sub-groups, you risk lowering the overall posible base by alienating one or more of the sub-groups.
Each pidgeon hole mentioned in my posts has the ability to do so.Risking alienating and removing potential customers from that starting base.
If i dont like PvP im sure as heck NOT gonna pay to play a game that slowly removes the option of playing the game in anyway other than PvP.
The same for group content,class limitation, etc....
Now as for the arbitrary numbers, keep in mind that even if in every % case it was only 10% of potential customers disliked, with 8 pidgeon holes could well have reached over 80% of your potential customer base that has a reason to dislike your product.
now removing the pidgoen holes is easy, and many examples have been given over the last circa 9 years on how.BUT the devs are tunnel visioned, inept at design , inept when it comes to creativity and inbred restricted as far as accepting new concepts(ones put forth by other than the "family" of current devs)
There are plenty of good MMO ideas, but unfortunatly, people are to busy drooling over Lotro and WAR.
From the person who is siding with Sword of the New World ... Dam if you think LotRO is lame, it might be better than i thought it would be.
Ehh one more for ya, Asian MMORPGs all suck . they are like Yahoo games to the 2nd power. Of course lots of people play yahoo games for mindless wasting of time, so maybe your on to something.
Tho i know your looking into Aion and that looks ok , rofl i love this quote
"
Q.
There was a lot of talk (in Korea) about the character design.
A.
Since the show at E3, there were some complaints that the characters looked too westernized.
"
So the problem is the characters are not 3 feet tall and colored using primary colors only.
Rofl ok thast a joke i have played quite a few asian mmos and well a few have been some of the best appering ... of course i looked liek 200 other peopel in the game , but i looked bad ass.
OK im sorry about this little hate speach , but whenever anyoen says ther are peanty of good MMO ideas but....
YOU LOSE why becuase you didn't list any , well i would gather you think Aion is a great idea etc and it does look good, but i have not seen an orginal idea in it yet.
Personally i think im goign to drop my plans to AOC some and take up PotBS becuase its pretty fresh.
Really? and where did I say Lotro was lame? Oh that right, I didn't say that.
About your stereotype, I'm going to use your way of thinking.
I look at your post, and from that, I conclude that ALL americans are stupid and do little more then stereotyping without doing any kind of research whatsoever.
Rediculous you say? well your doing the same thing.
tkobo, IMO your pigeon holes don't work like what you describe. For example, lets say you have raiding content, that's mostly end game stuff. You're right that some players might hate raiding. But they'll still play the game from 1-60, even if they don't stick around for the raiding part of the game. Getting rid of raiding doesn't add any more players, it just gets rid fo the ones that like that activity.
Wrong, because you get rid of raiding in a way that makes in not a pidgeon hole.
The whole sub catagories of content disappear.People CAN still experience content in the game in a raid manner, BUT and this is soooooo important, they can also experience that content in a NON-raid manner.
So people who want to "raid" still can, BUT NOW ALSO, people who want to experience that content without doing so thru the raid pidgeon hole, can now also .
The closest place you can find it explained is in this thread.
However, oftentimes I don't think players understand what an MMORPG is, and they really want to play something else. That's fine, just go play it already. You want more action, more player "skillz" than character skills, no levels? It's a called an FPS. Go buy one. I suggest Call of Duty 2 or Battlefield 2142, both very fun games.
An RPG is about building a character, using character skills (not your reflexes), and it doesn't matter whether you're building a character with levels or skills, either way it's a game of progression. You add to that an end game, either PvP, or Raiding, or both. That's an MMORPG and it can be done poorly, or done well. If you want to argue that an MMORPG is done poorly, and you want one that's done well, I'm with you. If you're actually looking for an FPS game, don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS.
I could say the next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units, you don't take over territory, and you don't kill the enemy. But then it wouldn't really be an RTS anymore, would it?
What is a role playing game? A mmofps can still be a rpg. These words were once created to hype games in the past and now mmorpg have become pigeon holed into the character skill ideals. I think alot of ppl think fps and rpg are opposites. There not.. Rpg is a game with roles, where as a fps is a twitch based game.
I agree with your idea that the 'next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units'. I think for devs to create a successful mmorts dev have to question what a rts is. This also works with mmog.
"don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS. " I agree but the problem is there are no good mmofps out. I play bf2142 and it's not a mmo as we know them. It's just a online fps with 64 players. I never played planet side cos when i first heard about it, it was old and didnt sound too good. I don't think i've missed much tho.
Huxley looks good as a online fps but i fear it will be just like doom but with lots of ppl. I want a mmofps to have concepts from rainbow 6, spinter cell, bf2142, hitman, a economy stratagy game and freedom to create conflict like in eve. I've been wishing for a game like this for 10 years since i played the original rainbow 6. Hopefully I don't have to wait enoughier 10 year to see my wish come true.
Simply put they either need to make more quality games that aim at a certain audience instead of trying to satisfy evrybody or they give a game all the possibilities altho without forcing anyone to anything, but then again can a single game realy provide all the options in a satisfying way? I think not.
Devs out there please collect your testicles and make something new.
Sorry, but i dont see any "independant" dev teams breaking the pidgeon hole mold either.
See, unlike what many people and almost ALL devs currently think, a new IP ,even with a new idea or two slapped over the same old
crap is really not new.Its really just the same old crap with a different wrapper.
You want to see the next MMO that gets 2 mil or more players happy enough to stay with that game,look for the one that removes the pidgeon holes.
Raid only content -GONE
Guild only content- GONE
Group only content- GONE
PvP only content - GONE
PvE only content - GONE
Item centric carrot design- GONE
Class system- GONE
Single world experience- GONE (this probably needs some explaining.So here it is.A MMO needs to have parts of its lands that apply different rules of behavior than other parts:
-by player and npcs
and
-environment :like artic regions that require players to generate warmth in some way OR desolate deserts that require a player to carry the required water just to survive -IE make the environment actually count for something other than eye candy.
AND those different exps need to be alterable.So players can create wells or water storage spots in the deserts-etc....
You want to see the next game that shows just how sad the current games have done subscription wise, find the one that breaks the above mentioned molded features.
At that point , you may just find out, youve also found the MMO that really brings something new to the industry.
Just my opinion of course, but I think you'll also have one more thing GONE. All your players.
It's true, there haven't been many good MMORPGs released lately. Auto Assault was boring ( I don't really want to play a car), same trouble with EVE (I dont' want to play a spaceship) and Vanguard is, well we could spend pages on why Vanguard sucks.
However, oftentimes I don't think players understand what an MMORPG is, and they really want to play something else. That's fine, just go play it already. You want more action, more player "skillz" than character skills, no levels? It's a called an FPS. Go buy one. I suggest Call of Duty 2 or Battlefield 2142, both very fun games.
An RPG is about building a character, using character skills (not your reflexes), and it doesn't matter whether you're building a character with levels or skills, either way it's a game of progression. You add to that an end game, either PvP, or Raiding, or both. That's an MMORPG and it can be done poorly, or done well. If you want to argue that an MMORPG is done poorly, and you want one that's done well, I'm with you. If you're actually looking for an FPS game, don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS.
I could say the next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units, you don't take over territory, and you don't kill the enemy. But then it wouldn't really be an RTS anymore, would it?
I have to agree with Tkobo on this one. He's thinking out of the box and knows what would make a fun mmo. Wow has alot of subs because they took out all the unenjoyable stuff from eq. Tkobo has taken out the boring stuff in wow and would now creater a brilliant game if he had $50 million.
Everything tkobo listed isn't needed in mmorpgs. Why should a game be pigeon holed into having raid, group, solo only content. It's a bit like a child born into a cult. You tell someone a lie enough times they will believe it forever. Someone plays a rpg long enough they will beleive there is no other way.
Really? and where did I say Lotro was lame? Oh that right, I didn't say that.
About your stereotype, I'm going to use your way of thinking.
I look at your post, and from that, I conclude that ALL americans are stupid and do little more then stereotyping without doing any kind of research whatsoever.
Rediculous you say? well your doing the same thing.
"There are plenty of good MMO ideas, but unfortunatly, people are to busy drooling over Lotro and WAR." ~ YOU
"
About your stereotype, I'm going to use your way of thinking.
I look at your post, and from that, I conclude that ALL americans are stupid and do little more then stereotyping without doing any kind of research whatsoever.
"
This was funny , because i obviously did research your positions and the games you were looking at to see if they offered anything the games you bashed and other mmorpgs don't offer...
Humm thats odd i know toy favor Sword of the New World and you look forward to Aion. I also know just about everything about AION as you do, unless you have an inside source. Why don't you enlighten me to these other ideas or what mmorpg offers them. Also , if you look at many of the games that have offered new ideas, they have failed. Not because of the new ideas but more so because they were not refine enough. I could be wrong but i gather you believe Aion to be a mmo that has original ideas , why don't you list them so i can tell you what mmorpgs had them before. Flight is not original, CoX , in fact the in Aion you can't even fly every where you go. Two sided pvp not original.
Aion classes do not look too original in themes, however, i am please with the variety they offer.
A power gauge for limited moves is not original
I am however, not attacking fans of Aion it looks pretty good. If you think well you said all asian mmorpg suck what about aion. Well if aion is good ill say, all asain mmorpg sux minus aion. I like Nc's Cox just fine but thast US-develponed - its not an asian mmo. However, Aion is being develpoed by NCsoft (Studio 5), a korean mmo. Still i think it looks good .
Looking at your response maybe i should conclude that all people from Nieuwegein, Netherlands don't have to use logic and may make baseless accusations and that is perfectly acceptable. The reason why i could say this, is becuase you actually did this. However, i believe people are inhertently equal and for them most part similar. So i would not assume anything of a group of people, you however do.
"stereotype" - oh i did stereotype , but then i said that it was not true... did you read that far it was only like 6 lines down.
I still say all Asian mmos sux, not because of stereotypes , but because they really do, i have played quite a few. My fav . so far was RF Online.
You on the other hand did really stereotype -
"There are plenty of good MMO ideas, but unfortunately, people are to busy drooling over LotRO and WAR." So let me see according to your stereotype people interested in WAr and LotRO , are not interested in innovation? Also, people looking at them are what drooling over them. That is a negative image and attribution of people interested in the game.
So you did hate of both WAr and LotRO , by saying the people interested in them are so infatuated with them they they are "drooling" and thus can not see what other games have to offer.
From here if there was a reason to look at other games this would mean that the other games are better , or have more to offer. Thus in comparison LotRO would be less then these other games , ie LAME.
Sure you never said it but it was insinuated.
PS last post of this nature for this thread , becuase i have said my peace.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Sorry, but i dont see any "independant" dev teams breaking the pidgeon hole mold either.
See, unlike what many people and almost ALL devs currently think, a new IP ,even with a new idea or two slapped over the same old
crap is really not new.Its really just the same old crap with a different wrapper.
You want to see the next MMO that gets 2 mil or more players happy enough to stay with that game,look for the one that removes the pidgeon holes.
Raid only content -GONE
Guild only content- GONE
Group only content- GONE
PvP only content - GONE
PvE only content - GONE
Item centric carrot design- GONE
Class system- GONE
Single world experience- GONE (this probably needs some explaining.So here it is.A MMO needs to have parts of its lands that apply different rules of behavior than other parts:
-by player and npcs
and
-environment :like artic regions that require players to generate warmth in some way OR desolate deserts that require a player to carry the required water just to survive -IE make the environment actually count for something other than eye candy.
AND those different exps need to be alterable.So players can create wells or water storage spots in the deserts-etc....
You want to see the next game that shows just how sad the current games have done subscription wise, find the one that breaks the above mentioned molded features.
At that point , you may just find out, youve also found the MMO that really brings something new to the industry.
You have interesting ideas about the pidgeon holes and "common modern MMORPG elements". Though it alienates the current players, they are indeed solutions to removing level grinding, equipment rat race, the whole raiding thing. There is only one game I know that comes close to this reality, and it's A Tale in the Desert.
Beyond that, if you look towards metaverse/virtual worlds, those are the grounds where the more creative things can happen. MMOs for now are still stuck in its old shell, as exciting as AoC and Granado Espada are. I envision an MMO-storytelling-and-survival virtual world as a future hit.
I still believe in indie developers because they will be the first ones to change, faster and easier than the standard industry would dare a financial risk. We don't see them doing it now doesn't mean there won't be indie devs who would later on.
I agree with alot of the things you said in the above post.
A "survival" element addded to a MMO if done right, would be a very good thing for the industry.
Change when it comes, will most likely come from an independant developer.
And yes, if the changes i list were implemented, they would themselves alienate a small section of the potential base.Sadly there are players out there that have a "I come first" attitude and actually dont want others to have eqaul access to content .They feel they are special or "elite" in some way and deserve more than other people.
I firmly believe however that this is a small sub group mostly made up of those from the raider subgroup.AND i beleive that a large group of this sub group, is that way becuase of learned behavior.
In other words, the dev teams have told them they are special and deserve more than other players so many times, and made it so in so many games, that they now believe it.
BUT i do feel that in time, a large section of this sub group will unlearn that belief, when they see that equal access to content really doesnt do them harm.AND that in fact,it helps them in many ways.
Lastly i have to say, these are not my ideas.The things i say here have been said on forums for circa 10 years now, going all the way back to The Realm forums.Its just that theyve been ignored for the most part, and i am one of the few who continually brings them back up from time to time.
Like the solution to the perm death situation, the solutions have been put forth many times on many forums, but theyve been ignored.
I forget which dinosaur said it, but one said once "When you answer a posters question, or address something hes said, you give that poster "power"".Qoute isnt exact, but the message is .
And hence if true, when they (meaning a dev) ignore issues or posters, they weaken them.This is one of the reasons why so many MMOs are moving away from having their own dedicated forums.Theyve tried the "belittle" strategy, where they in a supposed "friendly" tone put down the posters and posts of ideas they dont want to embrace, and found the public reacted badly to that strategy on their part.
And so know they are moving more firmly onto the ignore strategy.This way they can turn out the same old MMO crap, and avoid having to deal with alot of the fallout.And ideas ignored by a dev, will soon fade from a games forum and be forgotten.Which is exaclty whats happening.
Oh, and i loved you mammal reference, in your other post.Lets hope you and i arent in our graves before that small independant mammal developer comes along.
However, oftentimes I don't think players understand what an MMORPG is, and they really want to play something else. That's fine, just go play it already. You want more action, more player "skillz" than character skills, no levels? It's a called an FPS. Go buy one. I suggest Call of Duty 2 or Battlefield 2142, both very fun games.
An RPG is about building a character, using character skills (not your reflexes), and it doesn't matter whether you're building a character with levels or skills, either way it's a game of progression. You add to that an end game, either PvP, or Raiding, or both. That's an MMORPG and it can be done poorly, or done well. If you want to argue that an MMORPG is done poorly, and you want one that's done well, I'm with you. If you're actually looking for an FPS game, don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS.
I could say the next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units, you don't take over territory, and you don't kill the enemy. But then it wouldn't really be an RTS anymore, would it?
What is a role playing game? A mmofps can still be a rpg. These words were once created to hype games in the past and now mmorpg have become pigeon holed into the character skill ideals. I think alot of ppl think fps and rpg are opposites. There not.. Rpg is a game with roles, where as a fps is a twitch based game.
I agree with your idea that the 'next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units'. I think for devs to create a successful mmorts dev have to question what a rts is. This also works with mmog.
"don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS. " I agree but the problem is there are no good mmofps out. I play bf2142 and it's not a mmo as we know them. It's just a online fps with 64 players. I never played planet side cos when i first heard about it, it was old and didnt sound too good. I don't think i've missed much tho.
Huxley looks good as a online fps but i fear it will be just like doom but with lots of ppl. I want a mmofps to have concepts from rainbow 6, spinter cell, bf2142, hitman, a economy stratagy game and freedom to create conflict like in eve. I've been wishing for a game like this for 10 years since i played the original rainbow 6. Hopefully I don't have to wait enoughier 10 year to see my wish come true.
MMOers have a different view on what RPG's are. Notice in this attached definition of RPG there is no real mention of anything the above poster list. "endgames, reflex vs math based skills, raiding. These are all terms created by the mmo industry. "Character building" is just a game mechanic, it does not make it a complete rpg.
If anything, MMO devs use levels and character developement excuse as a block or stall to portions of the game until you put in a predetermined amount of time doing shallow grind task because the game isn't strong enough to keep a players attention without the time sinks.
The problem with mmorpg's is they are completely hung up and dependant on math to keep the players entertained rather then depth of the world, story and choices.
There are many different definitions of what an RPG is and most of them say the same thing, basically they need a STORY and the players need to be able to make CHOICES that have impact, in other words freedom...which is what most MMO's are missing. There is a difference in how crpg's are defined, mainly being they are more concerned with mechanics then choice or story. Hence the misconception that rpg's are about levels and abilities or item rewards.
A role-playing game (RPG, often roleplaying game) is a type of game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create or follow stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
A role-playing game rarely has winners or losers. That makes role-playing games fundamentally different from board games, card games, sports and most other types of games. Role-playing games are typically more collaborative and social than competitive.[1] A typical role-playing game unifies its participants into a single team, known as a "party", that plays as a group. Like serials or novel sequences, these episodic games are often played in weekly sessions over a period of months or even years, although some gamers prefer playing one session games.
Role-playing games are a form of interactive and collaborative storytelling. Like novels or films, role-playing games appeal because they engage the imagination. Interactivity is the crucial difference between role-playing games and traditional fiction. Whereas a viewer of a television show is a passive observer, a player at a roleplaying game makes choices that propel the action. Such role-playing games extend an older tradition of storytelling games where a small party of friends collaborate to create a story.
While simple forms of roleplaying exist in traditional children's games such as "cops and robbers", "cowboys and Indians" and "playing house", role-playing games add a level of sophistication and persistence to this basic idea. Instead, participants in a roleplaying game will generate specific characters and an ongoing plot. A consistent system of rules and a more or less realistic campaign setting in games aids suspension of disbelief. The level of realism in games ranges from just enough internal consistency to set up a believable story or credible challenge to full-blown simulations of real-world processes.
Video games incorporating settings and game mechanics found in roleplaying games are referred to as computer role-playing games, or CRPGs. Due to the popularity of CRPGs, the terms "role-playing game" and "RPG" have both to some degree been co-opted by the video gaming industry; as a result, traditional non-digital pastimes of this sort are increasingly being referred to as "pen and paper" or "tabletop" role-playing games, though neither pen and paper nor a table are strictly necessary.
However, oftentimes I don't think players understand what an MMORPG is, and they really want to play something else. That's fine, just go play it already. You want more action, more player "skillz" than character skills, no levels? It's a called an FPS. Go buy one. I suggest Call of Duty 2 or Battlefield 2142, both very fun games.
An RPG is about building a character, using character skills (not your reflexes), and it doesn't matter whether you're building a character with levels or skills, either way it's a game of progression. You add to that an end game, either PvP, or Raiding, or both. That's an MMORPG and it can be done poorly, or done well. If you want to argue that an MMORPG is done poorly, and you want one that's done well, I'm with you. If you're actually looking for an FPS game, don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS.
I could say the next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units, you don't take over territory, and you don't kill the enemy. But then it wouldn't really be an RTS anymore, would it?
What is a role playing game? A mmofps can still be a rpg. These words were once created to hype games in the past and now mmorpg have become pigeon holed into the character skill ideals. I think alot of ppl think fps and rpg are opposites. There not.. Rpg is a game with roles, where as a fps is a twitch based game.
I agree with your idea that the 'next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units'. I think for devs to create a successful mmorts dev have to question what a rts is. This also works with mmog.
"don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS. " I agree but the problem is there are no good mmofps out. I play bf2142 and it's not a mmo as we know them. It's just a online fps with 64 players. I never played planet side cos when i first heard about it, it was old and didnt sound too good. I don't think i've missed much tho.
Huxley looks good as a online fps but i fear it will be just like doom but with lots of ppl. I want a mmofps to have concepts from rainbow 6, spinter cell, bf2142, hitman, a economy stratagy game and freedom to create conflict like in eve. I've been wishing for a game like this for 10 years since i played the original rainbow 6. Hopefully I don't have to wait enoughier 10 year to see my wish come true.
MMOers have a different view on what RPG's are. Notice in this attached definition of RPG there is no real mention of anything the above poster list. "endgames, reflex vs math based skills, raiding. These are all terms created by the mmo industry. "Character building" is just a game mechanic, it does not make it a complete rpg.
If anything, MMO devs use levels and character developement excuse as a block or stall to portions of the game until you put in a predetermined amount of time doing shallow grind task because the game isn't strong enough to keep a players attention without the time sinks.
The problem with mmorpg's is they are completely hung up and dependant on math to keep the players entertained rather then depth of the world, story and choices.
There are many different definitions of what an RPG is and most of them say the same thing, basically they need a STORY and the players need to be able to make CHOICES that have impact, in other words freedom...which is what most MMO's are missing. There is a difference in how crpg's are defined, mainly being they are more concerned with mechanics then choice or story. Hence the misconception that rpg's are about levels and abilities or item rewards.
A role-playing game (RPG, often roleplaying game) is a type of game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create or follow stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
A role-playing game rarely has winners or losers. That makes role-playing games fundamentally different from board games, card games, sports and most other types of games. Role-playing games are typically more collaborative and social than competitive.[1] A typical role-playing game unifies its participants into a single team, known as a "party", that plays as a group. Like serials or novel sequences, these episodic games are often played in weekly sessions over a period of months or even years, although some gamers prefer playing one session games.
Role-playing games are a form of interactive and collaborative storytelling. Like novels or films, role-playing games appeal because they engage the imagination. Interactivity is the crucial difference between role-playing games and traditional fiction. Whereas a viewer of a television show is a passive observer, a player at a roleplaying game makes choices that propel the action. Such role-playing games extend an older tradition of storytelling games where a small party of friends collaborate to create a story.
While simple forms of roleplaying exist in traditional children's games such as "cops and robbers", "cowboys and Indians" and "playing house", role-playing games add a level of sophistication and persistence to this basic idea. Instead, participants in a roleplaying game will generate specific characters and an ongoing plot. A consistent system of rules and a more or less realistic campaign setting in games aids suspension of disbelief. The level of realism in games ranges from just enough internal consistency to set up a believable story or credible challenge to full-blown simulations of real-world processes.
Video games incorporating settings and game mechanics found in roleplaying games are referred to as computer role-playing games, or CRPGs. Due to the popularity of CRPGs, the terms "role-playing game" and "RPG" have both to some degree been co-opted by the video gaming industry; as a result, traditional non-digital pastimes of this sort are increasingly being referred to as "pen and paper" or "tabletop" role-playing games, though neither pen and paper nor a table are strictly necessary.
Nothing you referenced disputes what I said. Table top roleplaying games, like D&D, are about player choices and stories. COMPUTER roleplaying games, like MMORPGs, are about game mechanics and character progression. The article you posted correctly mentions at the end that people now use terms like Paper n Pencil to describe a game about playing a role, stories, and character choices, and they use CRPG or MMORPG to describe a different game, one that is about character progression.
That MMORPGs use math in the combat system isn't a flaw, that's what makes them fun. Otherwise I'd just go play Battlefield 2142, which I also like. The very definition of a COMPUTER roleplaying game is that it uses math in the combat system. Anything else is called "twitch" or a first person shooter. Table top games are different, and some table top games don't even use combat at all, but are just an interactive story with each person playing a part. You can see this in forum roleplaying threads as well. Everyone posts a part of the story, playing as a character, but no dice are rolled, no one clicks on a mouse to shoot on anyone, it's just a story. That is NOT a COMPUTER roleplaying game, but it is a table top sort of roleplaying game.
I used to wish for, and advocate for, a computer game that emulates the table top roleplayng experience, but on a massive scale. IN essence, a Table Top MMORPG, not just a COMPUTER MMORPG. However, after playing many MMORPGs, and engaging in countless discussions about the mechanics for such a game, I now no longer believe it is possible to capture the table top game with a computer code. The biggest missing link being the Dungeon Master, which makes the whole table top setting work, as well as the fact that table top games are played by small groups of people that meet regularly, not strangers from across the globe.
I used to wish for, and advocate for, a computer game that emulates the table top roleplayng experience, but on a massive scale. IN essence, a Table Top MMORPG, not just a COMPUTER MMORPG. However, after playing many MMORPGs, and engaging in countless discussions about the mechanics for such a game, I now no longer believe it is possible to capture the table top game with a computer code. The biggest missing link being the Dungeon Master, which makes the whole table top setting work, as well as the fact that table top games are played by small groups of people that meet regularly, not strangers from across the globe.
Well, being that way back in the 80s i attended a few PnP conventions, and the groups there were composed of strangers, i dont think thats an issue.
As for the DM/GM whatever you want to call the person running the game,thats the computer in a crpg.
And i dont think we can say, someone cant make a good computer DM simply because people have failed to do so this far.Especailly in the MMO industry where the people making the product have failed in just about everyway they could.
We just need the "wright brothers" of the MMO industry to come and save us from the endless dreck called products we face now,put forth by the dinosaurs that currently make said products.
Really? and where did I say Lotro was lame? Oh that right, I didn't say that.
About your stereotype, I'm going to use your way of thinking.
I look at your post, and from that, I conclude that ALL americans are stupid and do little more then stereotyping without doing any kind of research whatsoever.
Rediculous you say? well your doing the same thing.
"There are plenty of good MMO ideas, but unfortunatly, people are to busy drooling over Lotro and WAR." ~ YOU
I'll ask you again, where did I say Lotro was lame? I didn't, so maybe you should stop putting words in my mouth.
"
About your stereotype, I'm going to use your way of thinking.
I look at your post, and from that, I conclude that ALL americans are stupid and do little more then stereotyping without doing any kind of research whatsoever.
"
This was funny , because i obviously did research your positions and the games you were looking at to see if they offered anything the games you bashed and other mmorpgs don't offer...
Humm thats odd i know toy favor Sword of the New World and you look forward to Aion. I also know just about everything about AION as you do, unless you have an inside source. Why don't you enlighten me to these other ideas or what mmorpg offers them. Also , if you look at many of the games that have offered new ideas, they have failed. Not because of the new ideas but more so because they were not refine enough. I could be wrong but i gather you believe Aion to be a mmo that has original ideas , why don't you list them so i can tell you what mmorpgs had them before. Flight is not original, CoX , in fact the in Aion you can't even fly every where you go. Two sided pvp not original.
Really? You DO know that the aerial combat in Aion is very different from CoX, right? Aerial combat in CoX is exactly the same as on the ground. Also, be sure to inform me when you find another MMORPG that has a PVE enviroment that actually changes as much as Aion does, which totally depends on the actions of the players.
And if we can believe NCsofts own words:
"the leveling-up system will be different from what you would normally expect."
There are even very few MMO's where weather actually has an effect on the gameplay.
There you go, enough for you?
Aion classes do not look too original in themes, however, i am please with the variety they offer.
A power gauge for limited moves is not original
I am however, not attacking fans of Aion it looks pretty good. If you think well you said all asian mmorpg suck what about aion. Well if aion is good ill say, all asain mmorpg sux minus aion. I like Nc's Cox just fine but thast US-develponed - its not an asian mmo. However, Aion is being develpoed by NCsoft (Studio 5), a korean mmo. Still i think it looks good .
Looking at your response maybe i should conclude that all people from Nieuwegein, Netherlands don't have to use logic and may make baseless accusations and that is perfectly acceptable. The reason why i could say this, is becuase you actually did this. However, i believe people are inhertently equal and for them most part similar. So i would not assume anything of a group of people, you however do.
"stereotype" - oh i did stereotype , but then i said that it was not true... did you read that far it was only like 6 lines down.
I still say all Asian mmos sux, not because of stereotypes , but because they really do, i have played quite a few. My fav . so far was RF Online.
I see you missed my point entirely, so I'll clear it up for you. When I say "All Americans are stupid" I base that entirely of your post. Common sense would have you say that I didn't meet every american and that its silly to stereotype like that. There are over 200 Asian MMORPG's, over 200. Unless you played even 1/4th of them (Thats 50 asian MMO's, Not even the amount of asian MMO's that actually came to the west), your just plain making assumptions and your just stereotyping.
You on the other hand did really stereotype -
"There are plenty of good MMO ideas, but unfortunately, people are to busy drooling over LotRO and WAR." So let me see according to your stereotype people interested in WAr and LotRO , are not interested in innovation? Also, people looking at them are what drooling over them. That is a negative image and attribution of people interested in the game.
So you did hate of both WAr and LotRO , by saying the people interested in them are so infatuated with them they they are "drooling" and thus can not see what other games have to offer.
From here if there was a reason to look at other games this would mean that the other games are better , or have more to offer. Thus in comparison LotRO would be less then these other games , ie LAME.
Sure you never said it but it was insinuated.
My good sir, please go back to school and learn to read. Your puttings words in my mouth and make silly assumptions. I "Hate" of WAR and Lotro? please, don't make me laugh.
PS last post of this nature for this thread , becuase i have said my peace.
Yeah, and I can sum up your posts in 2 words. "Assumptions" and "Stereotype".
Comments
See, unlike what many people and almost ALL devs currently think, a new IP ,even with a new idea or two slapped over the same old
crap is really not new.Its really just the same old crap with a different wrapper.
You want to see the next MMO that gets 2 mil or more players happy enough to stay with that game,look for the one that removes the pidgeon holes.
Raid only content -GONE
Guild only content- GONE
Group only content- GONE
PvP only content - GONE
PvE only content - GONE
Item centric carrot design- GONE
Class system- GONE
Single world experience- GONE (this probably needs some explaining.So here it is.A MMO needs to have parts of its lands that apply different rules of behavior than other parts:
-by player and npcs
and
-environment :like artic regions that require players to generate warmth in some way OR desolate deserts that require a player to carry the required water just to survive -IE make the environment actually count for something other than eye candy.
AND those different exps need to be alterable.So players can create wells or water storage spots in the deserts-etc....
ETC........
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You want to see the next game that shows just how sad the current games have done subscription wise, find the one that breaks the above mentioned molded features.
At that point , you may just find out, youve also found the MMO that really brings something new to the industry.
Just my opinion of course, but I think you'll also have one more thing GONE. All your players.
It's true, there haven't been many good MMORPGs released lately. Auto Assault was boring ( I don't really want to play a car), same trouble with EVE (I dont' want to play a spaceship) and Vanguard is, well we could spend pages on why Vanguard sucks.
However, oftentimes I don't think players understand what an MMORPG is, and they really want to play something else. That's fine, just go play it already. You want more action, more player "skillz" than character skills, no levels? It's a called an FPS. Go buy one. I suggest Call of Duty 2 or Battlefield 2142, both very fun games.
An RPG is about building a character, using character skills (not your reflexes), and it doesn't matter whether you're building a character with levels or skills, either way it's a game of progression. You add to that an end game, either PvP, or Raiding, or both. That's an MMORPG and it can be done poorly, or done well. If you want to argue that an MMORPG is done poorly, and you want one that's done well, I'm with you. If you're actually looking for an FPS game, don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS.
I could say the next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units, you don't take over territory, and you don't kill the enemy. But then it wouldn't really be an RTS anymore, would it?
MMORPG Maker
And original games like Granado Espada and Aion are simply ignored.
The only innovative idea that is supported so far is Age of Conan, but even AoC stands in the shadow of WAR.
I was very sad to hear it will only be a 2 sided fight tho. for shame
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I posted this link in the actual Pirates of the Burning Sea section, but for those of you who might have missed it, I suggest taking a read of this ~~> www.whitewolfclan.net/pobs/review.htm It's a very very well done review of the upcomming game by a prominent member of the PoBS community. Also if you perfer to find information on your own, MMORPG.com has a nice section itself as well as the main page for the game, located here www.burningsea.com
Personaly I don't think it's the lack of idea or skill. It's become more an issue of preasure to make money as soon as possible to cover the massive cost of game production on the main stage. I belive that we can trust in small indi corp's to still try and bring new and innovative things to the table. Look at UO, it was an extreamly crazy idea for it's time. A game where people are going to have to PAY to play it. Who on earth would have thaught that was going to work. But as the past 12 years of MMOG market has shown, it wasn't so much nuts as visionary. Just remember, sometimes someone makes the right mistake and things fall into place.
Pyros (Officer Absolution [sYn] MMO PvP guild)
Ehh one more for ya, Asian MMORPGs all suck . they are like Yahoo games to the 2nd power. Of course lots of people play yahoo games for mindless wasting of time, so maybe your on to something.
Tho i know your looking into Aion and that looks ok , rofl i love this quote
"
So the problem is the characters are not 3 feet tall and colored using primary colors only.
Rofl ok thast a joke i have played quite a few asian mmos and well a few have been some of the best appering ... of course i looked liek 200 other peopel in the game , but i looked bad ass.
OK im sorry about this little hate speach , but whenever anyoen says ther are peanty of good MMO ideas but....
YOU LOSE why becuase you didn't list any , well i would gather you think Aion is a great idea etc and it does look good, but i have not seen an orginal idea in it yet.
Personally i think im goign to drop my plans to AOC some and take up PotBS becuase its pretty fresh.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Pidgeon holes reduce the potential amount of players who might possibly be happy playing a game.
Removing pidgeon holes increase said potential.
Ill explian it using made up figures.Now remember these figures are arbitrary and only exist in this post to give reference.
Pidgeon holes:
Raiding content- lets say 10% of the potential game population likes this pidgoen hole.(aagain remember arbitrary number)With this pidgeon hole, you now can make 10% of the potential population happy.WHAT about the other 90%? Well the simple truth is, by putting this pidgeon hole in your game , youev just given the other pottential 90% a reason to dislike your game.
Group only content- lets say 40% of the potential game population likes this pidgeon hole.(again remember arbitary number).So youve just given 60% of the potential game population a reason to not like your game.
PvP primary endgame- lets say 40% of the potential game population likes this pidgeon hole.(again remember arbitrary number)So youve just given 60% of the potential game population a reason to not like your game.
So there we have 3 pidgeon holes commonly embraced by the devs and their tunnel vision approach.
NOW that make up another number and see how this all plays out.Again this numbe ris abritary and onyl serves as a refernce point to help you to understand the concept they are being used in.
Lets say this otehr number is Potential customer base and it equals 8 million players.
So we start out with 8 million players.The first pidgeon hole here can give 7.2 million of that total, a reason to dislike your game.You know have a resaonable potential of 800k.
Now we apply the next pidgeon hole.now weve given another 60% a reason to feel alienated and dislike the game.So the potential customer base takes a hit yet again.Becoming say 480k that have not yet been given a design reason to dislike your product.
Now we apply the third pidgeon hole.another 60% have reason to dislike your game out o fthe 480k, which leaves circa 200k.
See how this works.
You have to remember that the total possible subcriber base is a finite number that acts as a base. And that everytime you add into your game a reason to seperate this base into sub-groups, you risk lowering the overall posible base by alienating one or more of the sub-groups.
Each pidgeon hole mentioned in my posts has the ability to do so.Risking alienating and removing potential customers from that starting base.
If i dont like PvP im sure as heck NOT gonna pay to play a game that slowly removes the option of playing the game in anyway other than PvP.
The same for group content,class limitation, etc....
Now as for the arbitrary numbers, keep in mind that even if in every % case it was only 10% of potential customers disliked, with 8 pidgeon holes could well have reached over 80% of your potential customer base that has a reason to dislike your product.
now removing the pidgoen holes is easy, and many examples have been given over the last circa 9 years on how.BUT the devs are tunnel visioned, inept at design , inept when it comes to creativity and inbred restricted as far as accepting new concepts(ones put forth by other than the "family" of current devs)
Ehh one more for ya, Asian MMORPGs all suck . they are like Yahoo games to the 2nd power. Of course lots of people play yahoo games for mindless wasting of time, so maybe your on to something.
Tho i know your looking into Aion and that looks ok , rofl i love this quote
"
So the problem is the characters are not 3 feet tall and colored using primary colors only.
Rofl ok thast a joke i have played quite a few asian mmos and well a few have been some of the best appering ... of course i looked liek 200 other peopel in the game , but i looked bad ass.
OK im sorry about this little hate speach , but whenever anyoen says ther are peanty of good MMO ideas but....
YOU LOSE why becuase you didn't list any , well i would gather you think Aion is a great idea etc and it does look good, but i have not seen an orginal idea in it yet.
Personally i think im goign to drop my plans to AOC some and take up PotBS becuase its pretty fresh.
Really? and where did I say Lotro was lame? Oh that right, I didn't say that.
About your stereotype, I'm going to use your way of thinking.
I look at your post, and from that, I conclude that ALL americans are stupid and do little more then stereotyping without doing any kind of research whatsoever.
Rediculous you say? well your doing the same thing.
Wrong, because you get rid of raiding in a way that makes in not a pidgeon hole.
The whole sub catagories of content disappear.People CAN still experience content in the game in a raid manner, BUT and this is soooooo important, they can also experience that content in a NON-raid manner.
So people who want to "raid" still can, BUT NOW ALSO, people who want to experience that content without doing so thru the raid pidgeon hole, can now also .
The closest place you can find it explained is in this thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/123579
What is a role playing game? A mmofps can still be a rpg. These words were once created to hype games in the past and now mmorpg have become pigeon holed into the character skill ideals. I think alot of ppl think fps and rpg are opposites. There not.. Rpg is a game with roles, where as a fps is a twitch based game.
I agree with your idea that the 'next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units'. I think for devs to create a successful mmorts dev have to question what a rts is. This also works with mmog.
"don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS. " I agree but the problem is there are no good mmofps out. I play bf2142 and it's not a mmo as we know them. It's just a online fps with 64 players. I never played planet side cos when i first heard about it, it was old and didnt sound too good. I don't think i've missed much tho.
Huxley looks good as a online fps but i fear it will be just like doom but with lots of ppl. I want a mmofps to have concepts from rainbow 6, spinter cell, bf2142, hitman, a economy stratagy game and freedom to create conflict like in eve. I've been wishing for a game like this for 10 years since i played the original rainbow 6. Hopefully I don't have to wait enoughier 10 year to see my wish come true.
Devs out there please collect your testicles and make something new.
Just my opinion of course, but I think you'll also have one more thing GONE. All your players.
It's true, there haven't been many good MMORPGs released lately. Auto Assault was boring ( I don't really want to play a car), same trouble with EVE (I dont' want to play a spaceship) and Vanguard is, well we could spend pages on why Vanguard sucks.
However, oftentimes I don't think players understand what an MMORPG is, and they really want to play something else. That's fine, just go play it already. You want more action, more player "skillz" than character skills, no levels? It's a called an FPS. Go buy one. I suggest Call of Duty 2 or Battlefield 2142, both very fun games.
An RPG is about building a character, using character skills (not your reflexes), and it doesn't matter whether you're building a character with levels or skills, either way it's a game of progression. You add to that an end game, either PvP, or Raiding, or both. That's an MMORPG and it can be done poorly, or done well. If you want to argue that an MMORPG is done poorly, and you want one that's done well, I'm with you. If you're actually looking for an FPS game, don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS.
I could say the next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units, you don't take over territory, and you don't kill the enemy. But then it wouldn't really be an RTS anymore, would it?
MMORPG Maker
I have to agree with Tkobo on this one. He's thinking out of the box and knows what would make a fun mmo. Wow has alot of subs because they took out all the unenjoyable stuff from eq. Tkobo has taken out the boring stuff in wow and would now creater a brilliant game if he had $50 million.
Everything tkobo listed isn't needed in mmorpgs. Why should a game be pigeon holed into having raid, group, solo only content. It's a bit like a child born into a cult. You tell someone a lie enough times they will believe it forever. Someone plays a rpg long enough they will beleive there is no other way.
LAWZIOWN3dYAINTEHFAACE
"
About your stereotype, I'm going to use your way of thinking.
I look at your post, and from that, I conclude that ALL americans are stupid and do little more then stereotyping without doing any kind of research whatsoever.
"
This was funny , because i obviously did research your positions and the games you were looking at to see if they offered anything the games you bashed and other mmorpgs don't offer...
Humm thats odd i know toy favor Sword of the New World and you look forward to Aion. I also know just about everything about AION as you do, unless you have an inside source. Why don't you enlighten me to these other ideas or what mmorpg offers them. Also , if you look at many of the games that have offered new ideas, they have failed. Not because of the new ideas but more so because they were not refine enough. I could be wrong but i gather you believe Aion to be a mmo that has original ideas , why don't you list them so i can tell you what mmorpgs had them before. Flight is not original, CoX , in fact the in Aion you can't even fly every where you go. Two sided pvp not original.
Aion classes do not look too original in themes, however, i am please with the variety they offer.
A power gauge for limited moves is not original
I am however, not attacking fans of Aion it looks pretty good. If you think well you said all asian mmorpg suck what about aion. Well if aion is good ill say, all asain mmorpg sux minus aion. I like Nc's Cox just fine but thast US-develponed - its not an asian mmo. However, Aion is being develpoed by NCsoft (Studio 5), a korean mmo. Still i think it looks good .
Looking at your response maybe i should conclude that all people from Nieuwegein, Netherlands don't have to use logic and may make baseless accusations and that is perfectly acceptable. The reason why i could say this, is becuase you actually did this. However, i believe people are inhertently equal and for them most part similar. So i would not assume anything of a group of people, you however do.
"stereotype" - oh i did stereotype , but then i said that it was not true... did you read that far it was only like 6 lines down.
I still say all Asian mmos sux, not because of stereotypes , but because they really do, i have played quite a few. My fav . so far was RF Online.
You on the other hand did really stereotype -
"There are plenty of good MMO ideas, but unfortunately, people are to busy drooling over LotRO and WAR." So let me see according to your stereotype people interested in WAr and LotRO , are not interested in innovation? Also, people looking at them are what drooling over them. That is a negative image and attribution of people interested in the game.
So you did hate of both WAr and LotRO , by saying the people interested in them are so infatuated with them they they are "drooling" and thus can not see what other games have to offer.
From here if there was a reason to look at other games this would mean that the other games are better , or have more to offer. Thus in comparison LotRO would be less then these other games , ie LAME.
Sure you never said it but it was insinuated.
PS last post of this nature for this thread , becuase i have said my peace.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Beyond that, if you look towards metaverse/virtual worlds, those are the grounds where the more creative things can happen. MMOs for now are still stuck in its old shell, as exciting as AoC and Granado Espada are. I envision an MMO-storytelling-and-survival virtual world as a future hit.
I still believe in indie developers because they will be the first ones to change, faster and easier than the standard industry would dare a financial risk. We don't see them doing it now doesn't mean there won't be indie devs who would later on.
I agree with alot of the things you said in the above post.
A "survival" element addded to a MMO if done right, would be a very good thing for the industry.
Change when it comes, will most likely come from an independant developer.
And yes, if the changes i list were implemented, they would themselves alienate a small section of the potential base.Sadly there are players out there that have a "I come first" attitude and actually dont want others to have eqaul access to content .They feel they are special or "elite" in some way and deserve more than other people.
I firmly believe however that this is a small sub group mostly made up of those from the raider subgroup.AND i beleive that a large group of this sub group, is that way becuase of learned behavior.
In other words, the dev teams have told them they are special and deserve more than other players so many times, and made it so in so many games, that they now believe it.
BUT i do feel that in time, a large section of this sub group will unlearn that belief, when they see that equal access to content really doesnt do them harm.AND that in fact,it helps them in many ways.
Lastly i have to say, these are not my ideas.The things i say here have been said on forums for circa 10 years now, going all the way back to The Realm forums.Its just that theyve been ignored for the most part, and i am one of the few who continually brings them back up from time to time.
Like the solution to the perm death situation, the solutions have been put forth many times on many forums, but theyve been ignored.
I forget which dinosaur said it, but one said once "When you answer a posters question, or address something hes said, you give that poster "power"".Qoute isnt exact, but the message is .
And hence if true, when they (meaning a dev) ignore issues or posters, they weaken them.This is one of the reasons why so many MMOs are moving away from having their own dedicated forums.Theyve tried the "belittle" strategy, where they in a supposed "friendly" tone put down the posters and posts of ideas they dont want to embrace, and found the public reacted badly to that strategy on their part.
And so know they are moving more firmly onto the ignore strategy.This way they can turn out the same old MMO crap, and avoid having to deal with alot of the fallout.And ideas ignored by a dev, will soon fade from a games forum and be forgotten.Which is exaclty whats happening.
Oh, and i loved you mammal reference, in your other post.Lets hope you and i arent in our graves before that small independant mammal developer comes along.
What is a role playing game? A mmofps can still be a rpg. These words were once created to hype games in the past and now mmorpg have become pigeon holed into the character skill ideals. I think alot of ppl think fps and rpg are opposites. There not.. Rpg is a game with roles, where as a fps is a twitch based game.
I agree with your idea that the 'next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units'. I think for devs to create a successful mmorts dev have to question what a rts is. This also works with mmog.
"don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS. " I agree but the problem is there are no good mmofps out. I play bf2142 and it's not a mmo as we know them. It's just a online fps with 64 players. I never played planet side cos when i first heard about it, it was old and didnt sound too good. I don't think i've missed much tho.
Huxley looks good as a online fps but i fear it will be just like doom but with lots of ppl. I want a mmofps to have concepts from rainbow 6, spinter cell, bf2142, hitman, a economy stratagy game and freedom to create conflict like in eve. I've been wishing for a game like this for 10 years since i played the original rainbow 6. Hopefully I don't have to wait enoughier 10 year to see my wish come true.
MMOers have a different view on what RPG's are. Notice in this attached definition of RPG there is no real mention of anything the above poster list. "endgames, reflex vs math based skills, raiding. These are all terms created by the mmo industry. "Character building" is just a game mechanic, it does not make it a complete rpg.
If anything, MMO devs use levels and character developement excuse as a block or stall to portions of the game until you put in a predetermined amount of time doing shallow grind task because the game isn't strong enough to keep a players attention without the time sinks.
The problem with mmorpg's is they are completely hung up and dependant on math to keep the players entertained rather then depth of the world, story and choices.
There are many different definitions of what an RPG is and most of them say the same thing, basically they need a STORY and the players need to be able to make CHOICES that have impact, in other words freedom...which is what most MMO's are missing. There is a difference in how crpg's are defined, mainly being they are more concerned with mechanics then choice or story. Hence the misconception that rpg's are about levels and abilities or item rewards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role%2Dplaying%5Fgame
A role-playing game (RPG, often roleplaying game) is a type of game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create or follow stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
A role-playing game rarely has winners or losers. That makes role-playing games fundamentally different from board games, card games, sports and most other types of games. Role-playing games are typically more collaborative and social than competitive.[1] A typical role-playing game unifies its participants into a single team, known as a "party", that plays as a group. Like serials or novel sequences, these episodic games are often played in weekly sessions over a period of months or even years, although some gamers prefer playing one session games.
Role-playing games are a form of interactive and collaborative storytelling. Like novels or films, role-playing games appeal because they engage the imagination. Interactivity is the crucial difference between role-playing games and traditional fiction. Whereas a viewer of a television show is a passive observer, a player at a roleplaying game makes choices that propel the action. Such role-playing games extend an older tradition of storytelling games where a small party of friends collaborate to create a story.
While simple forms of roleplaying exist in traditional children's games such as "cops and robbers", "cowboys and Indians" and "playing house", role-playing games add a level of sophistication and persistence to this basic idea. Instead, participants in a roleplaying game will generate specific characters and an ongoing plot. A consistent system of rules and a more or less realistic campaign setting in games aids suspension of disbelief. The level of realism in games ranges from just enough internal consistency to set up a believable story or credible challenge to full-blown simulations of real-world processes.
Video games incorporating settings and game mechanics found in roleplaying games are referred to as computer role-playing games, or CRPGs. Due to the popularity of CRPGs, the terms "role-playing game" and "RPG" have both to some degree been co-opted by the video gaming industry; as a result, traditional non-digital pastimes of this sort are increasingly being referred to as "pen and paper" or "tabletop" role-playing games, though neither pen and paper nor a table are strictly necessary.
What is a role playing game? A mmofps can still be a rpg. These words were once created to hype games in the past and now mmorpg have become pigeon holed into the character skill ideals. I think alot of ppl think fps and rpg are opposites. There not.. Rpg is a game with roles, where as a fps is a twitch based game.
I agree with your idea that the 'next great Real Time Strategy game will be one where you don't build units'. I think for devs to create a successful mmorts dev have to question what a rts is. This also works with mmog.
"don't blame that on an MMORPG, just go get an FPS. " I agree but the problem is there are no good mmofps out. I play bf2142 and it's not a mmo as we know them. It's just a online fps with 64 players. I never played planet side cos when i first heard about it, it was old and didnt sound too good. I don't think i've missed much tho.
Huxley looks good as a online fps but i fear it will be just like doom but with lots of ppl. I want a mmofps to have concepts from rainbow 6, spinter cell, bf2142, hitman, a economy stratagy game and freedom to create conflict like in eve. I've been wishing for a game like this for 10 years since i played the original rainbow 6. Hopefully I don't have to wait enoughier 10 year to see my wish come true.
MMOers have a different view on what RPG's are. Notice in this attached definition of RPG there is no real mention of anything the above poster list. "endgames, reflex vs math based skills, raiding. These are all terms created by the mmo industry. "Character building" is just a game mechanic, it does not make it a complete rpg.
If anything, MMO devs use levels and character developement excuse as a block or stall to portions of the game until you put in a predetermined amount of time doing shallow grind task because the game isn't strong enough to keep a players attention without the time sinks.
The problem with mmorpg's is they are completely hung up and dependant on math to keep the players entertained rather then depth of the world, story and choices.
There are many different definitions of what an RPG is and most of them say the same thing, basically they need a STORY and the players need to be able to make CHOICES that have impact, in other words freedom...which is what most MMO's are missing. There is a difference in how crpg's are defined, mainly being they are more concerned with mechanics then choice or story. Hence the misconception that rpg's are about levels and abilities or item rewards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role%2Dplaying%5Fgame
A role-playing game (RPG, often roleplaying game) is a type of game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create or follow stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
A role-playing game rarely has winners or losers. That makes role-playing games fundamentally different from board games, card games, sports and most other types of games. Role-playing games are typically more collaborative and social than competitive.[1] A typical role-playing game unifies its participants into a single team, known as a "party", that plays as a group. Like serials or novel sequences, these episodic games are often played in weekly sessions over a period of months or even years, although some gamers prefer playing one session games.
Role-playing games are a form of interactive and collaborative storytelling. Like novels or films, role-playing games appeal because they engage the imagination. Interactivity is the crucial difference between role-playing games and traditional fiction. Whereas a viewer of a television show is a passive observer, a player at a roleplaying game makes choices that propel the action. Such role-playing games extend an older tradition of storytelling games where a small party of friends collaborate to create a story.
While simple forms of roleplaying exist in traditional children's games such as "cops and robbers", "cowboys and Indians" and "playing house", role-playing games add a level of sophistication and persistence to this basic idea. Instead, participants in a roleplaying game will generate specific characters and an ongoing plot. A consistent system of rules and a more or less realistic campaign setting in games aids suspension of disbelief. The level of realism in games ranges from just enough internal consistency to set up a believable story or credible challenge to full-blown simulations of real-world processes.
Video games incorporating settings and game mechanics found in roleplaying games are referred to as computer role-playing games, or CRPGs. Due to the popularity of CRPGs, the terms "role-playing game" and "RPG" have both to some degree been co-opted by the video gaming industry; as a result, traditional non-digital pastimes of this sort are increasingly being referred to as "pen and paper" or "tabletop" role-playing games, though neither pen and paper nor a table are strictly necessary.
Nothing you referenced disputes what I said. Table top roleplaying games, like D&D, are about player choices and stories. COMPUTER roleplaying games, like MMORPGs, are about game mechanics and character progression. The article you posted correctly mentions at the end that people now use terms like Paper n Pencil to describe a game about playing a role, stories, and character choices, and they use CRPG or MMORPG to describe a different game, one that is about character progression.
That MMORPGs use math in the combat system isn't a flaw, that's what makes them fun. Otherwise I'd just go play Battlefield 2142, which I also like. The very definition of a COMPUTER roleplaying game is that it uses math in the combat system. Anything else is called "twitch" or a first person shooter. Table top games are different, and some table top games don't even use combat at all, but are just an interactive story with each person playing a part. You can see this in forum roleplaying threads as well. Everyone posts a part of the story, playing as a character, but no dice are rolled, no one clicks on a mouse to shoot on anyone, it's just a story. That is NOT a COMPUTER roleplaying game, but it is a table top sort of roleplaying game.
I used to wish for, and advocate for, a computer game that emulates the table top roleplayng experience, but on a massive scale. IN essence, a Table Top MMORPG, not just a COMPUTER MMORPG. However, after playing many MMORPGs, and engaging in countless discussions about the mechanics for such a game, I now no longer believe it is possible to capture the table top game with a computer code. The biggest missing link being the Dungeon Master, which makes the whole table top setting work, as well as the fact that table top games are played by small groups of people that meet regularly, not strangers from across the globe.
MMORPG Maker
I used to wish for, and advocate for, a computer game that emulates the table top roleplayng experience, but on a massive scale. IN essence, a Table Top MMORPG, not just a COMPUTER MMORPG. However, after playing many MMORPGs, and engaging in countless discussions about the mechanics for such a game, I now no longer believe it is possible to capture the table top game with a computer code. The biggest missing link being the Dungeon Master, which makes the whole table top setting work, as well as the fact that table top games are played by small groups of people that meet regularly, not strangers from across the globe.
MMORPG Maker
/agree with MMO's although NWN comes darn close
Well, being that way back in the 80s i attended a few PnP conventions, and the groups there were composed of strangers, i dont think thats an issue.
As for the DM/GM whatever you want to call the person running the game,thats the computer in a crpg.
And i dont think we can say, someone cant make a good computer DM simply because people have failed to do so this far.Especailly in the MMO industry where the people making the product have failed in just about everyway they could.
We just need the "wright brothers" of the MMO industry to come and save us from the endless dreck called products we face now,put forth by the dinosaurs that currently make said products.
I'll ask you again, where did I say Lotro was lame? I didn't, so maybe you should stop putting words in my mouth.
"
About your stereotype, I'm going to use your way of thinking.
I look at your post, and from that, I conclude that ALL americans are stupid and do little more then stereotyping without doing any kind of research whatsoever.
"
This was funny , because i obviously did research your positions and the games you were looking at to see if they offered anything the games you bashed and other mmorpgs don't offer...
Humm thats odd i know toy favor Sword of the New World and you look forward to Aion. I also know just about everything about AION as you do, unless you have an inside source. Why don't you enlighten me to these other ideas or what mmorpg offers them. Also , if you look at many of the games that have offered new ideas, they have failed. Not because of the new ideas but more so because they were not refine enough. I could be wrong but i gather you believe Aion to be a mmo that has original ideas , why don't you list them so i can tell you what mmorpgs had them before. Flight is not original, CoX , in fact the in Aion you can't even fly every where you go. Two sided pvp not original.
Really? You DO know that the aerial combat in Aion is very different from CoX, right? Aerial combat in CoX is exactly the same as on the ground. Also, be sure to inform me when you find another MMORPG that has a PVE enviroment that actually changes as much as Aion does, which totally depends on the actions of the players.
And if we can believe NCsofts own words:
"the leveling-up system will be different from what you would normally expect."
There are even very few MMO's where weather actually has an effect on the gameplay.
There you go, enough for you?
Aion classes do not look too original in themes, however, i am please with the variety they offer.
A power gauge for limited moves is not original
I am however, not attacking fans of Aion it looks pretty good. If you think well you said all asian mmorpg suck what about aion. Well if aion is good ill say, all asain mmorpg sux minus aion. I like Nc's Cox just fine but thast US-develponed - its not an asian mmo. However, Aion is being develpoed by NCsoft (Studio 5), a korean mmo. Still i think it looks good .
Looking at your response maybe i should conclude that all people from Nieuwegein, Netherlands don't have to use logic and may make baseless accusations and that is perfectly acceptable. The reason why i could say this, is becuase you actually did this. However, i believe people are inhertently equal and for them most part similar. So i would not assume anything of a group of people, you however do.
"stereotype" - oh i did stereotype , but then i said that it was not true... did you read that far it was only like 6 lines down.
I still say all Asian mmos sux, not because of stereotypes , but because they really do, i have played quite a few. My fav . so far was RF Online.
I see you missed my point entirely, so I'll clear it up for you. When I say "All Americans are stupid" I base that entirely of your post. Common sense would have you say that I didn't meet every american and that its silly to stereotype like that. There are over 200 Asian MMORPG's, over 200. Unless you played even 1/4th of them (Thats 50 asian MMO's, Not even the amount of asian MMO's that actually came to the west), your just plain making assumptions and your just stereotyping.
You on the other hand did really stereotype -
"There are plenty of good MMO ideas, but unfortunately, people are to busy drooling over LotRO and WAR." So let me see according to your stereotype people interested in WAr and LotRO , are not interested in innovation? Also, people looking at them are what drooling over them. That is a negative image and attribution of people interested in the game.
So you did hate of both WAr and LotRO , by saying the people interested in them are so infatuated with them they they are "drooling" and thus can not see what other games have to offer.
From here if there was a reason to look at other games this would mean that the other games are better , or have more to offer. Thus in comparison LotRO would be less then these other games , ie LAME.
Sure you never said it but it was insinuated.
My good sir, please go back to school and learn to read. Your puttings words in my mouth and make silly assumptions. I "Hate" of WAR and Lotro? please, don't make me laugh.
PS last post of this nature for this thread , becuase i have said my peace.
Yeah, and I can sum up your posts in 2 words. "Assumptions" and "Stereotype".