Vaporware or Not? That is the question.

Enforcer71

First off let me say that I have not been following this game for as long as a lot of you have been but I have read a lot of the posts.

I fell for this game when I seen the newest videos stating what their game was about..FREEDOM!! So many of the things in this game, if it makes it, remind me of a lot of things I loved about the original star wars galaxies. I mean hell if they can make this game the way the video introduces it I think it will be a huge hit even if it has taken so long to make.

I have seen many posts of people from both sides giving their opinion's about if this game will ever make it to the stores but it has always been here or there in different subjects so i would like to get everyones opinion's here in one topic.

Like I said, I havent been following it as long as others but this is my take on the situation. Yes, this game has been in production a while..someone said 7 years but others have corrected this and said its only been 4 or 5 because the game was taken over from someone else. Some have also said this is a small team around 30 peeps with so called private funding and honestly with only 30 peeps I can see why it is taking so long.

I think it will come out.. eventually.  I dont buy into the fact the graphics will be far behind the newest games out because to me its the gameplay not the graphics that make a good game. Dont get me wrong I love graphics but as World of Warcraft has shown us, you do not need top of the line graphics to succeed. I believe when they do finally release this game it will be very popular IF they stay on course with the original ideas, because there are no games out there to date that would give you the type of gameplay this game wants to deliver.

This is of course my opinion, could I be wrong? Well duh, anyone can be wrong but I am just going off what I have read. I hope I am right and this game does make it to the stores, especially if it stays true to its ideas.

 

daarco

I agree.

There is no other MMO as DF will be. So its the only hope we have. And if its turn out to be vaporware....bummer Not much we can do but wait.

 

Enforcer71

Yes it would definately suck if it turns out to be vaporware because if they are actually making a game like they describe in their video's then they will have a very popular game.

Unfortunately, its still a business and no telling what will happen but if they actually spent this long working on it and have private funding then I just dont see them pulling the plug.

daarco

I have full understanding for the long development. You know Pirares of the Burning Sea. They worked for years to get the ship combat to work, and thats their main feature. The ship combat in DF is just one of many main features.

 

I will play PotBS untill DF is released, i want ships

taxesdue

It seems that countless people have grown quite weary hearing about the Darkfall mmorpg project year after year that touts innovative features and gameplay that is supposed to accompany its launch. The problem seems to be that the project in question does not appear to have produced anything much of actual significance over a span of some 7 odd years to back up any of the claims it makes but yet seems to expect the general public and possible future consumers to accept what some might consider to be string-along tactics coupled with suppressive like control practices all in a effort to seemingly keep the following strong and the questions to a minimum.



I enjoy good player vs player titles as much as the next avid gamer does but no amount of lust for good player vs player action will make the developers of this darkfall project look like anything other than something comical at this point after 6 plus years of -development- and nothing to show for it other than the same monotonous "We have the Holy Grail of Player vs Player MMOG" promises.



Do the forthcoming titles within the same genre such as Age of Conan and Warhammer Online with their multi million dollar development budgets and large professional teams shake in their proverbial boots over the greatness that this Darkfall project continuously touts, or do they simply poke fun at it behind closed doors?



http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=1466



Unfortunately (??or fortunately??) sometimes those doors swing open showing what others really think.



And so without further ado some 10 red flag reasons will be listed as to why I feel darkfall is nothing more than an ill conceived project that never had (and probably never will have) the proper resources to be successfully pulled off and is caught in a slow downward spiral brought on by many different factors.





Red Flag 1. Development cycles?



Most people understand that creating something as complex as a MMORPG title requires massive amounts of resources in the form of both money and man power , as well as past experience or you simply end up in a seemingly never-ending development cycle of which this darkfall project has been caught in for the last 6-7 years. A tell tale sign to some of improper management , insufficient manpower , insufficient monetary support and insufficient experience and planning.



Red Flag 2. Intended features vs man power?



The features list of this project seems to be on par with something that you would expect to see coming out of a studio such as Blizzard and World of Warcraft which had a budget that was in the tens of millions of dollars and the support of some of the most talented and experienced developers in the industry. Even with the proper tools and experience at their disposal, it still took Blizzard some 4 years to complete. Yet a small group of amateurs who seemingly have never produced anything even remotely near the scale of a world of warcraft type project seem to be attempting to pull off the same.



Red Flag 3. Missed deadlines and broken promises?



To the best of my knowledge this Darkfall project has missed almost every publically announced development milestone to date. For example making announcements of "beta testing" than continuously pushing it back or not delivering or simply waving it off.



Red Flag 4. Uncertainties and lack of precise information



It would appear that some years back the announcement was made that this Darkfall project had secured a publisher by the name of "Aventurine" in Greece but unfortunately there does not seem to be any information about this company anywhere. Many believe that Aventurine = Razorwax = Aventurine and that there is no seperate publishing entity or fundee pumping the money and support that would be needed to bring a project like this to fruition. A recent 2007 update has stated that they are displaying the title to various parties in an attempt to secure publishing support "etc" etc" at this point in time.

What than is the purpose of this Aventurine company that they are supposadely supported and published by? Why do they need to look at other options now?



Red Flag 5. Sporatic updates



There are periods when nothing new is reported for months on end and when finally something new is provided - it really is nothing more than the same information released months back. A perfect example of this would be the Jan 2007 video displaying some basic combat. This video brings with it absolutely nothing new and what is displayed in it can have easily been seen in still screenshots released months beforehand.



Red Flag 6. Gestapo-like run official forums & poor PR



To the best of my knowledge this project does not have any official PR person who handles the release of new information and community activities. This is essentially left up to "volunteers" or "fans" who, for the most part, are allowed to moderate forums with a Gestapo-like mentality , effectively rubbing out anyone who brings up any valid questions or concerns surrounding the project.



Red Flag 7. misc lose ends and problems?



It appears that back in 2003 the term "Darkfall" was requested to be trademarked. Some concerns were brought up that there might be issues with it which were than effectively squashed with a general "That was taken care of already".



http://www.geocities.com/myth0rreality/app.jpg

Unfortunately if you check the latest status on this - it doesn't appear to have been taken care of at all.



Red Flag 8. little to no concrete information even after many years in production



While a general understanding exists of the intended gameplay, for the most part , the bulk of its features remain shrouded in mystery which may point to a lack of direction and understanding of goals.

Many of the touted features such as siege systems , city building , hundreds of skills and spells , quests and bulk of the general gameplay has yet to be explained or seen in any type of functioning manner. To date, all that has been shown is that there is in fact a quite basic and rudimentary looking combat system after 6-7 years of production.



Red Flag 9. Unproven code and technology



To the best of my knowledge this project does not use any proven , licensed technology behind it and is built upon completely proprietary and yet-to-be-proven code. One of the touted features is the ability for this technology to support up to 10,000 or so people in massive battles online at the same time which has never been successfully implemented anywhere else to date nor even attempted by some of the most experienced development studios out there for the problems it would cause associated with internet connectivity and latency issues.



Red Flag 10. launch dates vs current reality?



The project had an official launch date of 2003 making it essentially 4 years overdue and possibly showing that the developers had no clear understanding of what they were getting into and could now very likely be floundering with the unexpected loads or unforseen developmental problems.

An update posted in Jan of 2007 had suggested that they have in fact reached a "beta" status with the project but in the same breath stated that they do not have any ETA on when beta would actually be available and that the current build was being shown to potential partners , publishers "etc". This announcement lead many who read between the lines to believe that the project was looking for ways out or seeking a typical "exit strategy".





It would appear that at this point in time from a logical business point of view that this darkfall project has most likely missed any window of opportunity for success it may have had by some 2-3 years. It is visually outdated compared to similar upcoming titles and still does not appear to be anywhere near completion or have the support structure in place for a 2007 launch which might have been its last hope and which many of its competitors such as Warhammer Online and Age of Conan will achieve with almost certainty.



The success of any project includes having the understanding that you cannot develop forever and that deadlines , or the act of sticking to them, are in fact very important things in achieving success and when they are missed by years than the odds of ever reaching that success becomes slim to none.

------

sorry you lose

Hochete

4-5 years development time, for a game promising so much revolutionary content, really isn't much. People don't realise that MMO's often take that long to perfect before release, especially if the makers want to make sure it's perfect (unlike Vanguard etc). I don't think it's Vaporware.

ddev

its not 4 or 5 years. Actually its more than 6-7.

daarco

They made the script in 1996 for DF.

And there are many redflags in this matter

But i will keep my hope up from these two reasons: the DF devs have not said much themselves, its the community that have hyped it up. And second: they have said they are a small company with one purpose....making a MMO. They wont hire anyone to handle PR. They just want to be left alone and get the game done.

It seems like there isnt much to update about as Tasos have said many times....."we just sit infront of our screen and programs all day long". So if we are quit.....thats because we are working

 

But still many red flags...

Aethios

---

Originally posted by daarco
But still many red flags...

---

Most of these "red flags" are pure opinion, old information taken out of context, or just made-up nonsense. I really have to question your intelligence if you're so willing to drop hope for this game just because of some troll with a half-dozen posts.

daarco

 

Originally posted by Aethios


 

Originally posted by daarco

But still many red flags...

 

Most of these "red flags" are pure opinion, old information taken out of context, or just made-up nonsense. I really have to question your intelligence if you're so willing to drop hope for this game just because of some troll with a half-dozen posts.

Dont worry. I will never drop my hope for DF

But i can think those "red flags" make it hard for some newer fans to understand.

TristamIzumi

Originally posted by taxesdue

*snip*

Hello whitedelight... I see you decided to make a new forum name. Copypasta rarely, if ever, helps one's cause.

Kyleran

Originally posted by TristamIzumi

Originally posted by taxesdue

*snip*

Hello whitedelight... I see you decided to make a new forum name. Copypasta rarely, if ever, helps one's cause. LOL, whats up with that?

alyndale

Pardon me, folks.  How long has Darkfall been in development?  Did I see somewhere that it's been in planning and development for over 6 years? 



If this is true and Darkfall has even made it to alpha beta..then maybe it's time to get on another band wagon..don;t you think?

Manmadegod

By the time this game comes out I'll be playing another MMORPG in Virtual Reality, matrix style.



Time to give it up 6 years plus with little progress to show, vaporware.. I first followed this game for a bit because it was supposed to be close to Utlima Online... meh, it aint coming.

ddev

blockquote Originally posted by Enforcer71

;Yes it would definately suck if it turns out to be vaporware because if they are actually making a game like they describe in their video's then they will have a very popular game.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, its still a business and no telling what will happen but if they actually spent this long working on it and have private funding then I just dont see them pulling the plug.

What's this game has to do with DF?
this is just about to be released, and btw there is no resemblance. One is entitled the "Game" title, the other is pure original Vaporware

ddev

augustgrace

Originally posted by taxesdue

It seems that countless people have grown quite weary hearing about the Darkfall mmorpg project year after year that touts innovative features and gameplay that is supposed to accompany its launch. The problem seems to be that the project in question does not appear to have produced anything much of actual significance over a span of some 7 odd years to back up any of the claims it makes but yet seems to expect the general public and possible future consumers to accept what some might consider to be string-along tactics coupled with suppressive like control practices all in a effort to seemingly keep the following strong and the questions to a minimum.



I enjoy good player vs player titles as much as the next avid gamer does but no amount of lust for good player vs player action will make the developers of this darkfall project look like anything other than something comical at this point after 6 plus years of -development- and nothing to show for it other than the same monotonous "We have the Holy Grail of Player vs Player MMOG" promises.



Do the forthcoming titles within the same genre such as Age of Conan and Warhammer Online with their multi million dollar development budgets and large professional teams shake in their proverbial boots over the greatness that this Darkfall project continuously touts, or do they simply poke fun at it behind closed doors?



http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=1466



Unfortunately (??or fortunately??) sometimes those doors swing open showing what others really think.



And so without further ado some 10 red flag reasons will be listed as to why I feel darkfall is nothing more than an ill conceived project that never had (and probably never will have) the proper resources to be successfully pulled off and is caught in a slow downward spiral brought on by many different factors.





Red Flag 1. Development cycles?



Most people understand that creating something as complex as a MMORPG title requires massive amounts of resources in the form of both money and man power , as well as past experience or you simply end up in a seemingly never-ending development cycle of which this darkfall project has been caught in for the last 6-7 years. A tell tale sign to some of improper management , insufficient manpower , insufficient monetary support and insufficient experience and planning.



Red Flag 2. Intended features vs man power?



The features list of this project seems to be on par with something that you would expect to see coming out of a studio such as Blizzard and World of Warcraft which had a budget that was in the tens of millions of dollars and the support of some of the most talented and experienced developers in the industry. Even with the proper tools and experience at their disposal, it still took Blizzard some 4 years to complete. Yet a small group of amateurs who seemingly have never produced anything even remotely near the scale of a world of warcraft type project seem to be attempting to pull off the same.



Red Flag 3. Missed deadlines and broken promises?



To the best of my knowledge this Darkfall project has missed almost every publically announced development milestone to date. For example making announcements of "beta testing" than continuously pushing it back or not delivering or simply waving it off.



Red Flag 4. Uncertainties and lack of precise information



It would appear that some years back the announcement was made that this Darkfall project had secured a publisher by the name of "Aventurine" in Greece but unfortunately there does not seem to be any information about this company anywhere. Many believe that Aventurine = Razorwax = Aventurine and that there is no seperate publishing entity or fundee pumping the money and support that would be needed to bring a project like this to fruition. A recent 2007 update has stated that they are displaying the title to various parties in an attempt to secure publishing support "etc" etc" at this point in time.

What than is the purpose of this Aventurine company that they are supposadely supported and published by? Why do they need to look at other options now?



Red Flag 5. Sporatic updates



There are periods when nothing new is reported for months on end and when finally something new is provided - it really is nothing more than the same information released months back. A perfect example of this would be the Jan 2007 video displaying some basic combat. This video brings with it absolutely nothing new and what is displayed in it can have easily been seen in still screenshots released months beforehand.



Red Flag 6. Gestapo-like run official forums & poor PR



To the best of my knowledge this project does not have any official PR person who handles the release of new information and community activities. This is essentially left up to "volunteers" or "fans" who, for the most part, are allowed to moderate forums with a Gestapo-like mentality , effectively rubbing out anyone who brings up any valid questions or concerns surrounding the project.



Red Flag 7. misc lose ends and problems?



It appears that back in 2003 the term "Darkfall" was requested to be trademarked. Some concerns were brought up that there might be issues with it which were than effectively squashed with a general "That was taken care of already".



http://www.geocities.com/myth0rreality/app.jpg

Unfortunately if you check the latest status on this - it doesn't appear to have been taken care of at all.



Red Flag 8. little to no concrete information even after many years in production



While a general understanding exists of the intended gameplay, for the most part , the bulk of its features remain shrouded in mystery which may point to a lack of direction and understanding of goals.

Many of the touted features such as siege systems , city building , hundreds of skills and spells , quests and bulk of the general gameplay has yet to be explained or seen in any type of functioning manner. To date, all that has been shown is that there is in fact a quite basic and rudimentary looking combat system after 6-7 years of production.



Red Flag 9. Unproven code and technology



To the best of my knowledge this project does not use any proven , licensed technology behind it and is built upon completely proprietary and yet-to-be-proven code. One of the touted features is the ability for this technology to support up to 10,000 or so people in massive battles online at the same time which has never been successfully implemented anywhere else to date nor even attempted by some of the most experienced development studios out there for the problems it would cause associated with internet connectivity and latency issues.



Red Flag 10. launch dates vs current reality?



The project had an official launch date of 2003 making it essentially 4 years overdue and possibly showing that the developers had no clear understanding of what they were getting into and could now very likely be floundering with the unexpected loads or unforseen developmental problems.

An update posted in Jan of 2007 had suggested that they have in fact reached a "beta" status with the project but in the same breath stated that they do not have any ETA on when beta would actually be available and that the current build was being shown to potential partners , publishers "etc". This announcement lead many who read between the lines to believe that the project was looking for ways out or seeking a typical "exit strategy".





It would appear that at this point in time from a logical business point of view that this darkfall project has most likely missed any window of opportunity for success it may have had by some 2-3 years. It is visually outdated compared to similar upcoming titles and still does not appear to be anywhere near completion or have the support structure in place for a 2007 launch which might have been its last hope and which many of its competitors such as Warhammer Online and Age of Conan will achieve with almost certainty.



The success of any project includes having the understanding that you cannot develop forever and that deadlines , or the act of sticking to them, are in fact very important things in achieving success and when they are missed by years than the odds of ever reaching that success becomes slim to none.

------

sorry you lose

 

You hit it right on the head!!  I have the alpha video from 2003, and I really don't understand how they've made so little progress since then.  I remember people getting excited this January when they announced beta was close, until someone posted a compiled list of their beta is close announcements going back four years. 

strongaxe

DF started serious develop ment in 03, 4 years isnt that long for a mmo.  Of course its not vaperware go look at the DF site, its more active than games that are closer to release haha.

Ammon777

taxesdue, fortunately, you DIDNT hit anything on the mark, and anyone that thinks you are, is ignorant... I know everything about Darkfall that a fan can know at this point without having insider information. I have been following Darkfall since 2001-2002. Nearly everything you wrote was either 1) completely conjecture and ignorant opinion, or 2) out-of-date RUMORS that surfaced 2+ years ago and were dissipated and forgotten until you dug them back out of the graveyard. You stated the most ignorant drivelling diatribe I have ever read concerning Darkfall's development cycles and its current state. When beta starts, I expect your foot will go mouth-ward. Also, you have zero credibility with me because you joined this website April 26th, 2007 -- today, lol -- to post this one opinion bullcrap piece that is pieced together from more rumors than actual facts. Perhaps I suspect you are the Age of Mourning troll dev, still mourning his scamwork? If not, perhaps you are a lackey of his that posts falsehoods against Darkfall in a pathetic vendetta? In any case, its abundantly clear that you havent even read a recent interview taken with the Darkfall devs within at least 2 years from today. I knew about those same rumors long time ago, they had dissipated because they were considered resolved by the community. Also your opinion is not insurmountable fact and treating it as such just shows your overall ignorance. Darkfall has been in FULL team development ONLY THREE YEARS. Aventurine was formed to create Darkfall. Before that it was three guys in a basement doing design work on it. It was not 7 freaken years like you claim. I would like to know what archaic sources you get your line of bullshit from? Also, the recent videos, constant bi-weekly updates, and most noteably the most recent update shows that Darkfall is closer to beta than ever before. Seriously, stop talking. I am done, I am not going to waste any more time on this because youre just ignorant to the facts and no amount of discussion can change that reality.



Do some actual research into the game next time.

daarco

And there is no person believing DF is vapoware anyway. Some claim to believie it, to look cool. Thats all.

You have to consider them as children, just tap them on the head and say " yes, you are a nice person anyway" because they dont understand the big picture. 

Enforcer71

Thanks for all your opinions, and a good read.

I will stay with DF and hope it comes out soon. I really dont have anything convincing me that its vaporware. The website for DF is active, new video I mean hell it isnt costing me anything to watch a game in developement.

ddev

Originally posted by daarco

And there is no person believing DF is vapoware anyway. Some claim to believie it, to look cool. Thats all.
You have to consider them as children, just tap them on the head and say " yes, you are a nice person anyway" because they dont understand the big picture. 

DF IS vaporware, what can we do? It's a seven year old vapors. If you dont want to beileve what you witness, is obviously your own choice, but leave those who dont free to express their opinion as well

daarco

 

 

Originally posted by ddev

Originally posted by daarco


And there is no person believing DF is vapoware anyway. Some claim to believie it, to look cool. Thats all.
You have to consider them as children, just tap them on the head and say " yes, you are a nice person anyway" because they dont understand the big picture. 

DF IS vaporware, what can we do? It's a seven year old vapors. If you dont want to beileve what you witness, is obviously your own choice, but leave those who dont free to express their opinion as well

 

Yeah? So why do you hang here and dream as we do? You cant prove to me you think it is vaporware. You have to spend as much time here as im, reading updates and talking to people from all over the world. You wouldent be here if you really did believe in it

Since almost 4 years of real programming is not much time, we have to wait to see if its vaporware

 

And if it would be vaporware, just take it easy. There will be other MMO to play.

Nothing as good DF would have been....

ddev

I am not.
I came back here after what? couple months of total inactivity, just to see the same bull over and over again. It just amazes me how easily people can get deceived. These guys here are serving you bullshit, and you all try to convince yourselves with even more lie. DF really deserves a case study on people thatcan get deceived indefinitely in order to get what they want. Just listen to yourself Daarco, you stay here for how much time? 1,2,3 years? What would you say if you were here since 1999 when they first came with the idea of that game?Check for definition of Vaporware and you will realise that this game is a 7 years old vapor

daarco

Cool? I believed you would get angry when i posted that you couldent prove you believed DF were vapoware.

To get serious. When i did found out about DF i was in a real MMO coma. Nothing was fun. I had been writing my own MMO script.....just for fun.

And here is a MMO like no other, it have everything i want. When you see there is hope for the MMO future from all WoW clones, its hard to ignore it and stop thinking how it would be to play it. As im being from Europe, i cant stand level system, and thats how all of em them are made today. I have lesser MMO to play for every year

So the point for me is not about if its vapor or not.

It just keep me reminded how rotten the MMO developer menality is. It takes a small company from Greece to come up with something new?? It sure is a crazy world

ownedyou1

DF would only be vaporware if they didn't have anything to show for it, but there is, so it's not, get it right.





Quality > fast release.