Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
General: MMOWTF: The Tedium of Being Evil
Szark
News ManagerMember Posts: 4,420
This week, Dan Fortier uses his MMOWTF column to muse about the idea of playing a genuinely evil character in an MMORPG.
Ever get the feeling that game designers don't care if you want to play an evil character or not? I have yet to play an MMO that really lets players be evil, let alone do anything but change the name of the materials you need to get for the FedEx quests you receive from an evil faction. There are a few reasons I can think this is the case, but none of them are really good enough for me. They are either trying to avoid an M-rating, or they just don't want to do the work to create a satisfying bad-guy experience.
Read the whole column here.
Comments
Thi is funny, I often think about this. I would love some actual "evil" actiivty in an MMO. I generally end up comparing the deeds of the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion to the "evil"/good characters of MMOs. That would be, if I were comparing an Assasin type character.
Now, when I think of necromancy I think of much more harsh realism. Picking out the best canidate to kill and be my next undead servent.
EDIT: Had a game idea. a Necro could/should have the ability to asses a living man or creature to determine how well they would serve in the underworld. After assesing, they could kill and resurrect them in an evil summoning, misxed with the right evil components of course, such as the heart of a Dire worlf... you get the point.
Another game that has surprised me is City of Villains. Though I still prefer City of Heroes, CoV does have some missions that have surprised me as being quite evil. Like missions to kidnap homeless people so the forces of evil can run experiments on them, and a mission to deliver drugs to pushers in Paragon city to help spread a plague.
Evil game play still doesn't have all of the flavor of Good game play but the seeds have been planted.
Great game, one of the best evil based games there ever wasPlaying a Warg and ganking "Freeps" (Free Peoples), terrorizing Rat folk (Hobbits) and dismembering them for tasty quest turn-ins is defiantely more evil than what you will get out of ... well playing the Horde in warcraft.
I had high hopes for CoV...after all, you were going to be playing a VILLIAN, right?
It fell way, way short. Turned out they were aiming more for City of slightly badder vigilantes. Number one complaint in it's beta was "I don't feel (evil/villainous/devilish) enough.
Wasted opportunity right there.
And also right. Totally right.
You're wrong in saying games don't offer evil quests.
One of the first qeusts I got as a LotRO monster character was to poison a river.
In EQ2, the whole freeport way of life is full of evil. Evil dialogue, evil intentions, and yes, evil quests intended to do harm to good guys.
Using the examples of evil gameplay that you gave, you're just wrong in claiming there isn't any out there.
However, you're RIGHT if you were trying to say that there is not a game out there that really allows you to advance equally and flourish equally by playing an evil character.
There isn't a game yet that makes that part of the gameplay. I'm not entirely sure, even, what that would look like - other than some kind of realm vs realm or pvp that allowed you to , say, sack good-guy villages, and made it your DAILY GOAL to destroy the goodness in the in-game world.
I don't really know what that would look like - but the innovation in that area doesn't yet exist, true.
It's true that the evil roles in the MMORPG family is just not fully fleshed out yet. It would indeed be very interesting to see how you could out-vile your supposed comrades of your dreadfully uncouth faction with creativity. Without all the cheese and FedEx, that is.
However, this yet unexplored path has lots of ethical problems later on. I could almost hear it: Mother Condemns Online Game for Truly Evil Ways. Delusional Teen Reenacts Necromancy in Basement. It's the perfect food to feed our favourite video game jock Mr. Thompson, and all the parents' associations of et cetera.
Surely we'll say "we can control it", but that's just not how the highly sensitive bunch sees it. I'm not personally condemning it, but there has to be a way not to create potential bad press for the game that dares to innovate such.
What do you guys think?
I think a lot of you are confusing evil with ganker.
Evil is dabbling in the dark arts. Secretly plotting world domination. It's about deceiving and ruling others.
Ganking is mindlessly killing players in PvP for the pure reason of harassing them.
From what I understand from the article there's a need for in-game evil. Wich is the first variant.
Out of game evil is ganking. In game speaking it's merely bandits that do that, neutral. Gankers aren't really evil. They don't plot world domination. They don't do dark rituals. They don't stand against the good guys. They just rob you and take your stuff, wether you're good or evil.
In game evil would be abducting random_town_idiot_01 for an evil experiment. No PvP of any kind involved but you just feel evil doing it. Poisening the well of a small village and seeing various random villagers turn green. Stealing a guard outfit and asking money from local shops for 'protection'.
There doesn't have to be any PvP involved. Just evil quests. And quests that are more then " well you basically do the same thing as that good guy over there but I will tell you how to do it in an evil voice! " Real evil. Not ganking. Not good quests told bad.
Killing the arch-paladin instead of receiving quests from him. Stuff like that.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Evil is one of those words that is really subjective. Most people use the word evil innappropriately.
Developers would not put real evil into a game because even though it was protected by first amendment rights, no one would distribute it, stores wouldn't sell it, etc.
The starter Chaos quests in WAR has you attack a village, kill the villagers, take their bodies and load them into a deamon-cannon, fire cannon at a wizard-tower.
Sounds evil to me
Well being evil may very well be taken as what we determine today in normal RL society. Good example, you ransack a village, kill all the villagers, take their worldly possessions then move on to the next town. Now you are considered a bad guy so what does this do to your character? Well for starters your character is now limited as to where it can go and what can it do. Your character will be limited to outlaw towns where everything is much higher priced, You will probably be hunted by all the other PC's on the server so they can get the nice fat reward for your head. If you goto a regular "good" town you will not be able to talk to any of the NPC's for anything and you will probably be harassed by the town guards , not to mention all the "good" PC's that exist in this town that want the fat reward hanging on your head.
Most people think it is great fun to become a bad guy, but do you really want to limit your character and make yourself wanted 24 hours a day. Sure for a little while you may think you are a god with your evil sensibility, but time will catch up with you and you will be hunted by every single PC, and NPC on the server. So you hit endgame at say half way to the real endgame and now you can no longer play.
I really don't see how this can be fun? Unlike books, pen and paper games, and other media, in an MMORPG the only place for you to hide after becoming evil is offline. The only way that I can see this truly working is to make an entire server evil only. With a good and evil concept on the same server the good will always prevail against evil.
I think you nailed it with your first sentence. We aren't playing evil because in fact, evil is subjective.
Are you good when you're killing trash mobs to fight Onyxia?
Are you good when you're chopping trees for wood?
The real issue that you're talking about is the lack of an alignment system in our MMO's today. Sure we have reputation in several, and different things such as that, but in MMO's there is no actual concept of Good and Evil, It's you and other players against neutral mobs and other competing players for gold (or Plat) and equipment to kill harder monsters.
.... COme to think of it though, you can be a necro in Everquest and you're pretty evil, you're also outcasted and you have to gain a bunch of rep to go to zones. I dunno.
What do you guys think? Is an alignment system in our modern MMO's feasible? Would we need more sandbox MMo's for this to work?
Or... with the coming of games like WAR and AOC do you think it's already in the process of coming to fruition? I know that in the Conan universe It's sort of a everybody for themselves real world environment, there really isn't a good vs. evil struggle. Conan definitely isn't the epitome of good, but he's definitely the hero(or anti-hero?).
anyways, hopefully I added a few useful nuggets to this discussion.
I think you nailed it with your first sentence. We aren't playing evil because in fact, evil is subjective.
Are you good when you're killing trash mobs to fight Onyxia?
Are you good when you're chopping trees for wood?
The real issue that you're talking about is the lack of an alignment system in our MMO's today. Sure we have reputation in several, and different things such as that, but in MMO's there is no actual concept of Good and Evil, It's you and other players against neutral mobs and other competing players for gold (or Plat) and equipment to kill harder monsters.
.... COme to think of it though, you can be a necro in Everquest and you're pretty evil, you're also outcasted and you have to gain a bunch of rep to go to zones. I dunno.
What do you guys think? Is an alignment system in our modern MMO's feasible? Would we need more sandbox MMo's for this to work?
Or... with the coming of games like WAR and AOC do you think it's already in the process of coming to fruition? I know that in the Conan universe It's sort of a everybody for themselves real world environment, there really isn't a good vs. evil struggle. Conan definitely isn't the epitome of good, but he's definitely the hero(or anti-hero?).
anyways, hopefully I added a few useful nuggets to this discussion.
Maybe not just an alignment system, but a reputation system as well. I remember seeing titles in the early days of UO that denoted good or eveil actions. .EQ had (has?)a system for classes that meant that certain professions wouldn't be treated well. I remember being a Necromancer and walking up to an outpost only to be cut down by the guards because they didn't like 'my kind'Now if we could only have something that could keep track of fell deeds with 'repercussions'.
BTW, a good article. One of the better ones.
D
The limit you describe is not in the concept but in the design of the game. You are mixing PVP and the evil versus good discussion. There are already multipple pvp game that handles the mecanism for killing each other.
As for the "outcast" concept, EQ2 has a "good" and "evil" town. It is just a matter of scaling.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
That's Bandits.
Not evil.
The evil being referred to is worshipping demons instead of gods. It's killing priests instead of cultists. It's raising the dead instead of resurrecting them. It's turning your comrades into bloodthirsty monsters instead of healing them.
This doesn't mean that evil equals ransacking every village. Currently it's designed that way. The whole article is about how that design is boring. The evil wanted is organised evil. Where being evil doesn't mean you're just a lowly bandit. It's where evil means you're in another faction.
Your evil: 2 capitals. Evil guy sacks them both and is then hated by the whole server and all NPCs
Evil referred to: 2 capitals. 1 evil. 1 good. They're in war. Evil guys get evil quests ( putting poison in a well ) good guys get good quests ( curing that poison. )
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Evil Guys get evil Quests (slaughtering helpless Villagers, collecting their Bodies, throw them in Giant Demon-Powered Cannons and shoot the Innards against a Wizards Tower to keep him busy...
Going out in the Field, searching Hurt Dwarfs, rip their Beards off and let them suffer there until they're dead),
Good guys get good Quests (Going out in the Field, giving Beer to the hurt Dwarfs so they can stand up and fight again).
WAR has everything set up and ready to go once it releases. Heck, it is centered around the perpetual, eternal War, the struggle for life. Not some werid AoC-Single Player stuff which you have to go through until you're lvl 20 or whatnot
PvP since lvl 1, yeeehaw!
So yeah, earlier MMORPGs had such issues, but WAR's on the best way to change that. (Warhammer Dark Elves are bloodthirsty sado-maso freaks who torture and sacrifice for their evil Gods and for personal Fun! Daily!)
That's Bandits.
Not evil.
The evil being referred to is worshipping demons instead of gods. It's killing priests instead of cultists. It's raising the dead instead of resurrecting them. It's turning your comrades into bloodthirsty monsters instead of healing them.
This doesn't mean that evil equals ransacking every village. Currently it's designed that way. The whole article is about how that design is boring. The evil wanted is organised evil. Where being evil doesn't mean you're just a lowly bandit. It's where evil means you're in another faction.
Your evil: 2 capitals. Evil guy sacks them both and is then hated by the whole server and all NPCs
Evil referred to: 2 capitals. 1 evil. 1 good. They're in war. Evil guys get evil quests ( putting poison in a well ) good guys get good quests ( curing that poison. )
ok so how do you expect the designers to give you a poisoning a well quest in an MMORPG. Sure you may be able to get past the NPC's because they could write the code that way, but how do you get past every single PC between the gate and the well. Sure, the NPC can give you a disguise to make yourself look "good" and then you an walk all the way to the well w/o being noticed, but what fun is that?
I am not saying that you should not have an "evil" faction in the game, but because of the element of adding humans to the game that can make decisions instead of a pre-palnned coding, the concept is pretty far fetched. I mean even if you add a quest for evil guy to go kidnap such and such princess, then have the good guy go out and rescue her from the evil guy you still have the element of PVP. In an MMORPG PVP is the element of the game, unless you make a non-PVP server. Your talking hours and hours of coding, thought processing and decision making on the part of the designers and programmers. BTW, don't forget most of the MMO's are under a timetable for content, and a budget constraint.
I could say:
It is evil of the people in this thread to attempt to influence the MMO market in unnatural ways by posting irrelevant opinions.
I could say:
Anyone who bears children in todays society is obviously evil because modern society is so horrible. Anyone who brings children into it is obviously a BAD PERSON.
Anyone could turn any activity into 'evil' or 'good' if they want to. I could say:
All MMO's are blatantly evil because they force you to support demonic and witching societies in order to progress.
If you don't think MMO's have enough support for evil play styles, it just means the things you do doesn't fit your personal definition of evil.
The other day I learned that the makers of Corn Flakes and various other cereals originally created their product to create a very bland breakfast. Why create a bland breakfast? Well, eating food in the morning with to much flavor caused sexual arousal. And sexual arousal is evil. Therefore, breakfast foods with a good, rich flavor is clearly EVIL!