Ya, there was just a tad of sarcasm in there The point is valid though. We get accusations like this DAILY and referencing a different company every time. "You took money for this review" or "SOE paid you to delete my post" or "your looking through my window at night while I sleep, aren't you!" - so if all these are true then pretty much every game company and us included are corrupt.
It's so much easier to dissmiss the actual comments with sarcasm isn't it? That is, rather than addressing the actual underlying issue with the community. OK, granted, the OP seems to have forgotten to take his "special pill" for the day. That whole business with the Trojans and what not is so inane to the point of wanting to hit your head on a brick wall... repeatidly. BUT still, as wildly innacurate as the post may be, the essence of the point within the post hits a marker for many community members here who wonder about the true neutrality of this site now days. I don't think any rational member of this community wants complete transperency, as a matter of fact, I don't think it's any of our business what happens in the background. IMO that would even include the people at Sigil asking as a favor not to review the game just yet. BUT (again) having said that, a little bit community management would go a LONG way to alleviating concerns over suspecious bannings, post deletions, cynical comments. You can cack wise (yeah I used it ) all you want but the truth is, if this is comming up on almost daily basis and you don't feel it's at the very least a small sign that it's a problem, can you really blame the community for this sort of behavior. In effect you yourself are helping to fuel the flames of fire here and yet you are so quick to judge and crucify with sarcasm those who point out the facts, even in their most extreme versions. Whilst, as you yourself pointed out, you've no need for the income anymore (must be nice ) one would wonder if MMORPG.com has reached this level of popularity with advertisers mostly on the backs of it's community, then why are we treated to secrecy and almost a type resentment. Well anyways, I guess I'll be dissmissed just as easily, or ignored or made fun of... all of which sounds like a good time . Just my point of view I suppose.
i mean look at all the posts they are locking or deleting from these vsoh forums. not a word on why they are deleted nor any real reason to other then it is possibly lowering the chances that sigil will get new customers unaware of all the crap the goes on with this game. its obvious whos taking it up the poop shoot here now. first mmorpg.com with their trojans and now this. good job guys.
think the players should know everything possible about this dark and light remake. this site used to be the best but now with your gold seller ads using your site to launch key loggers and what not is disturbing.
The great thing about all the conspiracy theorists logic (that any half way intelligent person understands) is that they are presenting a argument that there is no real way to dis-prove, and because it can not be dis-proven they take it as truth. The ironic part is that this type of argument works the other way as well. Because you can't prove your argument it is also invalid but when presented with this logic they tend to ignore the fact that they can't prove their argument and stick to the idea that their argument can not be dis-proven so it must be true.
Case in point. SOE/Sigil pays MMORPG to moderate negative posts to make the game look better. There is nothing MMORPG can do to disprove this. They can deny it but that isn't disproving. So instead they laugh it off which in reality is the only thing they can really do. You people don't need a tin foil hat, You need to go to school and take a couple logic classes and learn how to formulate a argument that will hold water in something other then a bar room debate.. Intelligent people don't take topics like this seriously because they understand that your argument is flawed and invalid from the start. This would be the reason the massive number of "Time to get out the tin foil hat" comments recently.
The great thing about all the conspiracy theorists logic (that any half way intelligent person understands) is that they are presenting a argument that there is no real way to dis-prove, and because it can not be dis-proven they take it as truth.
I think that is an excellent point. My integrity has been attacked by these same Vanguard-haters/trolls and it effectively is a distraction from any important point being made. I have found that these people, when they find a position/opinion/idea that is contrary to their own, immediately attack the individual's integrity. When they being to flame a person, it is no longer about the issue but about the person. Therefore, the issue/idea cannot be explored and the mudslinging and vitriol starts launching both ways. The simple method of attacking an individual's integrity has a profound impact on the quality, standards, and thoughtfulness of discussion in the Vanguard section here.
The Vanguard-haters/trolls aim in doing this is to stifle any real discussion. I believe (at least I know I do) people visit these public forums for the opportunity to engage in meaningful discussion. People seek information, the sharing of ideas, and a sense of community. However, individuals cannot be confident in posting in the Vanguard section without fear they will be flamed, ridiculed and their integrity attacked.
I think it is shameful what these individuals have done to the quality of public discussion in the Vanguard section in MMORPG.
Ya, there was just a tad of sarcasm in there The point is valid though. We get accusations like this DAILY and referencing a different company every time. "You took money for this review" or "SOE paid you to delete my post" or "your looking through my window at night while I sleep, aren't you!" - so if all these are true then pretty much every game company and us included are corrupt.
It's so much easier to dissmiss the actual comments with sarcasm isn't it? That is, rather than addressing the actual underlying issue with the community. OK, granted, the OP seems to have forgotten to take his "special pill" for the day. That whole business with the Trojans and what not is so inane to the point of wanting to hit your head on a brick wall... repeatidly. BUT still, as wildly innacurate as the post may be, the essence of the point within the post hits a marker for many community members here who wonder about the true neutrality of this site now days. I don't think any rational member of this community wants complete transperency, as a matter of fact, I don't think it's any of our business what happens in the background. IMO that would even include the people at Sigil asking as a favor not to review the game just yet. BUT (again) having said that, a little bit community management would go a LONG way to alleviating concerns over suspecious bannings, post deletions, cynical comments. You can cack wise (yeah I used it ) all you want but the truth is, if this is comming up on almost daily basis and you don't feel it's at the very least a small sign that it's a problem, can you really blame the community for this sort of behavior. In effect you yourself are helping to fuel the flames of fire here and yet you are so quick to judge and crucify with sarcasm those who point out the facts, even in their most extreme versions. Whilst, as you yourself pointed out, you've no need for the income anymore (must be nice ) one would wonder if MMORPG.com has reached this level of popularity with advertisers mostly on the backs of it's community, then why are we treated to secrecy and almost a type resentment. Well anyways, I guess I'll be dissmissed just as easily, or ignored or made fun of... all of which sounds like a good time . Just my point of view I suppose.
As the previous poster noted - there is really nothing I could do other than spray a little sarcasm on the fire. I mean, daily we get accused of things that there are zero backing for.
To be honest - I am not aware of the "suspicous bannings, post deletions, etc" - I don't run our community anymore - our Community Manager - Laura Genender takes care of this and she reports to our Managing Editor - Jon Wood. I pretty much stick to selling advertising and I let Jon handle all the site content and the crew. As I tell every advertiser, for itegrity reasons, I do not get involved in reviews, previews, or any content on the site...and trust me, this dissapoints a few that thing a large ad buy will somehow lead to coverage at the site, etc.
I can say that I have reviewed many complaints from members about bannings in the past few months and 95% of the time I can see a rule that has been broken, plain and simple. If you don't want your posts deleted and/or account banned - take a good look at the rules and make sure you follow them, without exception. I also know that Laura has reversed a lot of bans and deletions from mods that made mistakes (I know because we have to manually reverse them for her). From what I have reviewed I have not seen anything unfair going on around here.
However, Shae - you have been a valued member of this community for a long time. I respect your comments, and the professional manner in which you deliver them. If you have a case to make about the way our community is being handled I welcome you to email me with what you see happening (admin@mmorpg.com) - I never disregard emails from any member - I will look over your message and review your concerns and suggestions in our next staff meeting if it is warranted.
As for the Vanguard review, I honestly don't know what the delay is with it...I think Jon is really close to releasing it and I know the reviewer has been playing the game for over a month because we spoke about this at our last teleconference. It is not uncommon for MMORPG.com to release reviews months after a game is released - I have never liked the idea of rushing a MMORPG review. The recent early "review" of LOTRO was a mistake - no getting around that one...it was more or less a beta preview and offered little in respect to being a opinion piece. But we are not perfect, and mistakes will happen and we will learn from them.
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
i mean look at all the posts they are locking or deleting from these vsoh forums. not a word on why they are deleted nor any real reason to other then it is possibly lowering the chances that sigil will get new customers unaware of all the crap the goes on with this game. its obvious whos taking it up the poop shoot here now. first mmorpg.com with their trojans and now this. good job guys.
think the players should know everything possible about this dark and light remake. this site used to be the best but now with your gold seller ads using your site to launch key loggers and what not is disturbing.
Yes, that is correct. We are taking bribe money from SOE, Turbine, Sigil, CCP Games, NCSoft any many other companies according to so many of our tinfoil hat wearing members. But shhh...because we cannot let each of these companies know about the other's deals or we will be in big trouble!
Now...if I could only find those keys to my yacht!!!
Do I detect a note of sarcasm here, or was that an entire symphony of sarcasm. Good answer LOL
Ya, there was just a tad of sarcasm in there
The point is valid though. We get accusations like this DAILY and referencing a different company every time. "You took money for this review" or "SOE paid you to delete my post" or "your looking through my window at night while I sleep, aren't you!" - so if all these are true then pretty much every game company and us included are corrupt.
Ask yourself. Would these companies actually risk their reputation to extend such a bribe? I mean the truth is we would expose them as crooks, if for no other reason it would be the story of the century - and we are a media site looking for loads of traffic. Or, would I actually tell a site volunteer moderator "hey, delete all bad posts about SOE games, and don't ask me why" - these people are volunteers - I highly doubt they would keep such a thing under wraps. One of the great thing about conspiracy theories is they fail to look at the blatantly obvious fact that people cannot keep their mouths shut...you can't have these major secrets that supposedly many people know about without some kind of leak. It is easy to just accuse someone or a business of some crooked deed with zero evidence and of course many jump on the bandwagon because it is fun and everyone loves a good witch hunt.
We make a decent businessselling ad space here, and the demand for it is far exceeding our supply of it - we don't need to take bribe money - not that we would ever do such a sick thing.
I mean - really, if we did not allow free speech here (within our rules) would I not have deleted this very topic?
Some other facts for the OP:
1) We have not had a goldseller ad on this site for over 5 months. However, we still have no policy against them...they are just not interested anymore in paying our "surcharge" for such ads.
2) We had nothing to do with the trojan attack on our site...it was planted in our servers by some group based out of China. Dear god man, do you actually thing we would do such a thing? We shut this site down after the final attack for THREE DAYS to move all of our servers behind a firewall and completely re-designed our network - to the tune of thousands of dollars in hardware and lost operating revenue.
Actually theres been some shady review practices regarding pre-built computer systems from some of the bigger companies. I want to say Alienware but I'm not sure. Basically whatever company it was threatened to or did remove their advertising money from the reviewing site/magazine because they're latetest system didn't get the review they wanted. So saying that gaming sites never take money or aren't presured into giving positive reviews might not be true. Not saying its the case here, but to dismiss people by saying they're "wearing tinfoil hats" may not entirely warranted.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
The Vanguard-haters/trolls aim in doing this is to stifle any real discussion. I believe (at least I know I do) people visit these public forums for the opportunity to engage in meaningful discussion. People seek information, the sharing of ideas, and a sense of community. However, individuals cannot be confident in posting in the Vanguard section without fear they will be flamed, ridiculed and their integrity attacked.
If the majority of what you type is nothing more than blanket labeling people who disagree with your opinion as haters and just revolves around their motives of posting, then you really aren't doing much to further discussion yourself are you? The same hold true of the original poster, you know the old saying about two wrongs not making a right.
I must admit it is very strange this site has not done a review of this game, being that it is a pretty major title in the marketplace. Did I miss it maybe or is there a reason there was no review?
As the previous poster noted - there is really nothing I could do other than spray a little sarcasm on the fire. I mean, daily we get accused of things that there are zero backing for. To be honest - I am not aware of the "suspicous bannings, post deletions, etc" - I don't run our community anymore - our Community Manager - Laura Genender takes care of this and she reports to our Managing Editor - Jon Wood. I pretty much stick to selling advertising and I let Jon handle all the site content and the crew. As I tell every advertiser, for itegrity reasons, I do not get involved in reviews, previews, or any content on the site...and trust me, this dissapoints a few that thing a large ad buy will somehow lead to coverage at the site, etc. I can say that I have reviewed many complaints from members about bannings in the past few months and 95% of the time I can see a rule that has been broken, plain and simple. If you don't want your posts deleted and/or account banned - take a good look at the rules and make sure you follow them, without exception. I also know that Laura has reversed a lot of bans and deletions from mods that made mistakes (I know because we have to manually reverse them for her). From what I have reviewed I have not seen anything unfair going on around here. However, Shae - you have been a valued member of this community for a long time. I respect your comments, and the professional manner in which you deliver them. If you have a case to make about the way our community is being handled I welcome you to email me with what you see happening (admin@mmorpg.com) - I never disregard emails from any member - I will look over your message and review your concerns and suggestions in our next staff meeting if it is warranted. As for the Vanguard review, I honestly don't know what the delay is with it...I think Jon is really close to releasing it and I know the reviewer has been playing the game for over a month because we spoke about this at our last teleconference. It is not uncommon for MMORPG.com to release reviews months after a game is released - I have never liked the idea of rushing a MMORPG review. The recent early "review" of LOTRO was a mistake - no getting around that one...it was more or less a beta preview and offered little in respect to being a opinion piece. But we are not perfect, and mistakes will happen and we will learn from them.
I do appreciate your comments and think it's important to note that if more communication along EXACTLY these lines was done with the community on a semi-to-regular basis (I know you all have a job to do so it's not always possible) it would go a very long way to improving things with the community, espeically with the older members that have become somewhat cynical and dissenchanted with the way things have been heading with mmorpg.com.
To be clear though, I don't think anyone wants perfection, just communication and some clearity as to why and what happens sometimes.
There's alot of us older community members that have more or less left and would love a chance to collectively write a letter to present to you, an open letter that explains why we've left and what we feel has been hurting the community. Not a bitch fest mind you, we know this is a business for you and you need to treat it that way but at the very least an open dialogue so you would know where some of your community (past and present) stand.
They did a preview of the game towards the end of beta, if I remember.
As for why no review post release?
Either A) SOE/Sigil didn't or hasn't provided them with a review account yet, or None of the normal reviewers, who happen to be volunteers as far as I am aware, want to do a review of the game because they're tired of having people trash not only their review, but themselves as individuals as well.
Edit: Or they're just taking their sweet arse time with the review...
They did a preview of the game towards the end of beta, if I remember. As for why no review post release? Either A) SOE/Sigil didn't or hasn't provided them with a review account yet, or None of the normal reviewers, who happen to be volunteers as far as I am aware, want to do a review of the game because they're tired of having people trash not only their review, but themselves as individuals as well. Edit: Or they're just taking their sweet arse time with the review...
Well if we read Craig's post correctly, someone is in fact working on the review but he has no idea what point it's at now or what the delay is.
Which I feel further compounds my thoughts. If there was at least some sort of regular/honest contact with the community or at least a community manager actively seeking and responding to the community's questions then it wouldn't have to be a guessing game.
Guessing and wondering begats rumor mongering and thus creates these plain out silly accusations that as Craig said, happen every single day. There is a tear between actually and fabrication on the forums but no one is actively going about telling us the difference between the two so how it can it be expected to stop?
I think its obvious that this site is not on the take. This is the best MMO site on the web, and not just because they have a good domain name. This is probably the least moderated site I have seen, and that is probably a huge factor behind the success of these forums. I laughed at loud at our Admin for having a sense of humor That being said, you should try visiting some other sites with forums. You would get moderated for saying anything negative on some games and it was glaring obvious that they were absolutely bought and paid for. Go take a look at the other post here about the Vanguard affiliate site revolting because Brad was trying to pressure their mods. It is an extremely revealing post about the true nature of spin.
I think its obvious that this site is not on the take. This is the best MMO site on the web, and not just because they have a good domain name. This is probably the least moderated site I have seen, and that is probably a huge factor behind the success of these forums. I laughed at loud at our Admin for having a sense of humor That being said, you should try visiting some other sites with forums. You would get moderated for saying anything negative on some games and it was glaring obvious that they were absolutely bought and paid for. Go take a look at the other post here about the Vanguard affiliate site revolting because Brad was trying to pressure their mods. It is an extremely revealing post about the true nature of spin.
But even the poster KAT is saying that that would you now said is not the case so why are you saying that it is so?
Because you recon others won't go and read the thread made on that site?
The Vanguard-haters/trolls aim in doing this is to stifle any real discussion. I believe (at least I know I do) people visit these public forums for the opportunity to engage in meaningful discussion. People seek information, the sharing of ideas, and a sense of community. However, individuals cannot be confident in posting in the Vanguard section without fear they will be flamed, ridiculed and their integrity attacked.
If the majority of what you type is nothing more than blanket labeling people who disagree with your opinion as haters and just revolves around their motives of posting, then you really aren't doing much to further discussion yourself are you? The same hold true of the original poster, you know the old saying about two wrongs not making a right.
I must admit it is very strange this site has not done a review of this game, being that it is a pretty major title in the marketplace. Did I miss it maybe or is there a reason there was no review?
I agree completely Daff.... it works both ways.... which some folks tend to forget it seems.
Besides..these are internet gaming forums... not the Oslo Summits.... don't take things so personally, who cares if someone flames your views.... flame them back... or ignore them completely... you are free to do what you like.
But no need to bemoan a lack of civility on the forums here... people are free to have the views they want..and deliver them in the manner they choose..... we are not playing by Marquess of Queensberry rules here you know.
Back to the OP's point..I don't believe MMORPG.com is on SOE's payroll...they let me freely "critique" VG or any other game whenever I want... as long as I stay within the rules of the site.
As to the trojan story..not buying it...know too many people that Blizzard has recovered their accounts (3 in fact) when they lost them to keyloggers.... got all their gear restored as well as their gold.... I know, there's stories about other results..but I've not experienced them myself....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sucking up to them to get into their good graces... absolutely.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I think its obvious that this site is not on the take. This is the best MMO site on the web, and not just because they have a good domain name. This is probably the least moderated site I have seen, and that is probably a huge factor behind the success of these forums. I laughed at loud at our Admin for having a sense of humor That being said, you should try visiting some other sites with forums. You would get moderated for saying anything negative on some games and it was glaring obvious that they were absolutely bought and paid for. Go take a look at the other post here about the Vanguard affiliate site revolting because Brad was trying to pressure their mods. It is an extremely revealing post about the true nature of spin.
I agree with this guy. This is probably one of the top, if not the top, open conversational board about this genre.
I'm sure they do, do favors for gaming companies. I would guess it is more along the lines of cutting slack on ad space. These guys are not stupid that run this site and they realize this is what makes their site what it is. I'd guess the reasons they started it was because they were fed up with all the bs and because it got them closer to the developers of the games they enjoy(the bs meaning, heavy handed moderation).
I think because more and more ppl is playing mmo now, as compare to last time, thats why we see more and more bashing, trolling etc basically on most of the forums (not only here)... which is sad.
to the OP, no, i dont believe that this forum will do what you say. Have really seen many players bash not only VG but other games as well but their post is not deleted. Maybe you shld look at the words that you use when posting (if yours are being deleted everytime)
For what it's worth these particular forums have been a shambles for months and its appreciated to see some actual moderation being done around here; it was sorely needed.
Most VG fans are happy to discuss negative issues with anyone - we are not in denial, we do not want to stop people from "knowing the truth" - heck, I reposted the "Will VG run on your PC" post from the official forums for people who come here for information re system specs.
Someone starts a screenshot thread - a nice comparison, if you want to see actual game shots from different gaming rigs - and trolls still fled to that thread with their "don't bother it sux" stock reply, forcing it to be locked. Some members really need to learn the meaning of subjectivity.
And now it appears that people are getting antsy that the VG review when it comes may actually be positive. Lol, positive or not, at least the reviewer is actually spending some time playing the game if the Admin post is accurate. How many times have you read an MMO review and got miffed cus it was obvious the reviewer didnt play enough to have a clue? Reminds me of some posters on this forum infact.
Brad will tells you that MMORPG.com is the devil and to stay far from it, because the site support golds ADS and such lowly sites. Yet, Brad is afraid to alienate any potential customers, so he would never mention anything against MMORPG.com, directly or indirectly.
I was able to blast Vanguard as much as I felt it deserve it, and got no problem, no delete, no control from the staff here. Yet, when I point at a flaw in Vanguard, I don't go like; V sucks. Nope, that made non-sense and deserve to be deleted.
Vanguard could be better if:
- It has raid free servers with full loot enabled on them. (raiding loot could be sold at merchant if you don't figure another way)
- A friendlier, happier and overall more mature community then the l33t community it has atm, a MMO is defined by it players, so Vanguard is define by who play it...
- More honesty from the staff, less double edges talk.
- SoE would take over completely, these devs at SoE have many flaws, they even did the NGE and all, yet, they are good devs and usually more attuned to the player based then Sigil staff which think of a way to make a game so they, themselves, shines and excell in a game, no matter if that game is or not successfull. (Silly that despite making such a game, they still don,t shine but have usually to settle for honorary titles in uber guilds...lol) See, SoE devs want to be loved and liked, they want to be appreciated, like a puppy who pretend to bite you so you play with him, while Sigil devs they want the alpha position with their customers...not the same mentality at all.
- If the Vanbois would stop putting s**t in the devs heads. FoH, Silkyvenom and a few other sites should be banned from Sigil offices, so they don't deter or destroy their game.
- If the game was tuned to be more "computer-illetrates" friendly.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Sorry, but the funny sarcams on boths sides aside.
There is a very simple basic truth here that some people simply dont want to admit.
MMORPG is paid by ALL the mmo companies that advertise here.Their source of income is ALL those companies.Their purpose and route to that money is ADVERTISING/PROMOTING.
Thinking that this does NOT color how they handle/cover the disasters that MMOs are more frequently being turned out as, is just naive as heck.
Its not like the evidence is hard to see either.
Just look at how the rating system works .Just look at the scores given in reviews overall, and in customer service specifically in each.
Just look at how the major corporation backed games get much more attention in news articles,interviews, "special" features, etc....Heck just look at the lame hype only, no content answers, they settle for in those oh so "fact finding" "player informing" interviews.
MMORPG operates under a HUGE conflict of interest.And theres NO way they dont realize this.They know they are best served by putting the best face possible on each MMO companies porduct they are PAID to advertise.
If MMORPG had a real intent to serve the MMO community OVER the MMO corporations,theyed cut all direct revenue ties to the MMO corporations and do honest interviews that really had the intent to get REAL answers,instead of just another set of lines of generic hype.
BUT thats unlikely to happen, becuase that would bring MMORPG.com less money.AND they like the MMO corporations are a business whos very first concern is money.
NOW, all that said.MMORPG does have a place that it shines, at least compared to many other sites.Thats it forums.MMORPG as far as i can tell, does not bend over completely backwards in how it runs it forums , to the will of those MMO corporations.
And so when they (the hypers of these corps products)come to these forums to spout out the latest hype, the community is allowed to call them on it.Which is something thats getting rarer and rarer in the MMO forums , as these corporations seek to stop communications they cant control.Which is of course why so many MMOs are embracing the "no offical forum" stand.
So yes, MMORPG has a HUGE credibilty problem that they try VERY hard to dismiss when brought up, but they also stil manage to serve the MMO community in a way thats both needed and getting very rare(open forums).
Have you ever read this forum before OP? This place is filled with hatred for the game i find it hard to find pro vanguard posts here. If vanguard is paying off mmorpg they surely are getting ripped off...
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
Have you ever read this forum before OP? This place is filled with hatred for the game i find it hard to find pro vanguard posts here. If vanguard is paying off mmorpg they surely are getting ripped off...
That is the irony of this topic. Let's pretend this site DID take money from all these companies for 1 minute. Both the Admin and the community know that the truth will find its way to these forums. They could take the money from Sigil, and sit back and laugh as we run wild all over them for producing the Saga of Poo.
Sorry, but the funny sarcams on boths sides aside. There is a very simple basic truth here that some people simply dont want to admit. MMORPG is paid by ALL the mmo companies that advertise here.Their source of income is ALL those companies.Their purpose and route to that money is ADVERTISING/PROMOTING. Thinking that this does NOT color how they handle/cover the disasters that MMOs are more frequently being turned out as, is just naive as heck. Its not like the evidence is hard to see either. Just look at how the rating system works .Just look at the scores given in reviews overall, and in customer service specifically in each. Just look at how the major corporation backed games get much more attention in news articles,interviews, "special" features, etc....Heck just look at the lame hype only, no content answers, they settle for in those oh so "fact finding" "player informing" interviews. MMORPG operates under a HUGE conflict of interest.And theres NO way they dont realize this.They know they are best served by putting the best face possible on each MMO companies porduct they are PAID to advertise. If MMORPG had a real intent to serve the MMO community OVER the MMO corporations,theyed cut all direct revenue ties to the MMO corporations and do honest interviews that really had the intent to get REAL answers,instead of just another set of lines of generic hype. BUT thats unlikely to happen, becuase that would bring MMORPG.com less money.AND they like the MMO corporations are a business whos very first concern is money.
NOW, all that said.MMORPG does have a place that it shines, at least compared to many other sites.Thats it forums.MMORPG as far as i can tell, does not bend over completely backwards in how it runs it forums , to the will of those MMO corporations. And so when they (the hypers of these corps products)come to these forums to spout out the latest hype, the community is allowed to call them on it.Which is something thats getting rarer and rarer in the MMO forums , as these corporations seek to stop communications they cant control.Which is of course why so many MMOs are embracing the "no offical forum" stand. So yes, MMORPG has a HUGE credibilty problem that they try VERY hard to dismiss when brought up, but they also stil manage to serve the MMO community in a way thats both needed and getting very rare(open forums).
I am sorry but I find your reasoning quite flawed. The truth is that the business side of our website (thats me) and the editorial/forum moderation sides are completely seperate...as well as geographically seperate (I am in Hawaii, Laura the Comm. Mgr is in Virginia, USA and our Editor - Jon Wood lives in Nova Scotia Canada). We might have a phone chat once per month but topics like "hey Laura, ban users that talk bad about SOE" just don't happen, no matter how much you may want to think things are so cynical. I let everyone run their own department as long as I feel the represent our company well. Jon covers the stories he wants to without any influence from me..., I will take a step back and look at the big picture from time to time and say "we really are not covering enough sci-fi type games", or "let's focus on getting more videos", or "the forums are out of control, crack down harder on the rule breakers", etc - but it is unconnected to the advertising sales.
I mentioned this before I think, we don't have a hard time selling ad space - there is no need to kiss any butt to sell it or compromise our integrity and reputation. I have to reject half of the ad proposals because we just don't have enough traffic to sell to the demand. If SOE or whoever does not buy ads because we reviewed their game bad (but in all honesty, I have never heard a company say something like this) I don't care because I have 2 other clients ready for a phone call. The plain logistics of this all is that even if we DID favor company X it would only alienate us from company Y - which is foolish, especially when compounded with jeapordizing our image and reputation. If we did shady things like this I ASSURE you it would leak out at some point - people just don't takejuicy secrets like this to their grave, at least not for MMORPG.com - LOL.
As someone mentioned earler, people like yourself state these things because you don't have to present any evidence and it is something that no matter what, I could not present evidence to prove otherwise...however, that does not make your accusations true - not by any stretch.
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
Originally posted by Admin I think we don't have integrity. I reject people like yourself because you don't have any evidence.
[sarcasm]
ZOMG!! PROOF, PROOF I TELL YOU!!! PROOF THAT MMORPG.COM IS ON TEH DOLE(PINEAPPLE, MMM) FROM TEH COMPANIEZZZZZZZ!!!111
Edit: Also, if you add the number of words in Admins post times the square root of pi, plus a random number less than 666, you get 666. Thus proving that not only are they in bed with the companies, they are also the Great Satanz.
[/sarcasm]
Oh, and selective reading, quoting, whatever, ftw.
Originally posted by KariTR And now it appears that people are getting antsy that the VG review when it comes may actually be positive. Lol, positive or not, at least the reviewer is actually spending some time playing the game if the Admin post is accurate.
Absolutely, KariTR. I think some serious intervention from the Administration is necessary in these forums. You cannot shout "FIRE!" in a movie theatre, and you are notsupposed to flame, troll, and just spout hatred on these forums. Flaming and trolling is attracting more flames and trolls but dissuading reasonable people from using MMORPG, sharing information, and participating in the community.
Nevertheless, based on my experience in the game, whether positive or negative, Vanguard is such an enormous and complex game that an honest review would require a significant amount of time. Further, the game is considerably different today from the game I played at release in terms of bugs, performance, the addition of solo and group content, etc. (If you state this, the flames/trolls think this is a lie, you are a van boi, work for SIGIL).
I look forward to the review, actually. I think MMORPG is an excellent source for information.
Comments
It's so much easier to dissmiss the actual comments with sarcasm isn't it? That is, rather than addressing the actual underlying issue with the community.
OK, granted, the OP seems to have forgotten to take his "special pill" for the day. That whole business with the Trojans and what not is so inane to the point of wanting to hit your head on a brick wall... repeatidly. BUT still, as wildly innacurate as the post may be, the essence of the point within the post hits a marker for many community members here who wonder about the true neutrality of this site now days.
I don't think any rational member of this community wants complete transperency, as a matter of fact, I don't think it's any of our business what happens in the background. IMO that would even include the people at Sigil asking as a favor not to review the game just yet. BUT (again) having said that, a little bit community management would go a LONG way to alleviating concerns over suspecious bannings, post deletions, cynical comments.
You can cack wise (yeah I used it ) all you want but the truth is, if this is comming up on almost daily basis and you don't feel it's at the very least a small sign that it's a problem, can you really blame the community for this sort of behavior. In effect you yourself are helping to fuel the flames of fire here and yet you are so quick to judge and crucify with sarcasm those who point out the facts, even in their most extreme versions.
Whilst, as you yourself pointed out, you've no need for the income anymore (must be nice
Well anyways, I guess I'll be dissmissed just as easily, or ignored or made fun of... all of which sounds like a good time
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Case in point. SOE/Sigil pays MMORPG to moderate negative posts to make the game look better. There is nothing MMORPG can do to disprove this. They can deny it but that isn't disproving. So instead they laugh it off which in reality is the only thing they can really do. You people don't need a tin foil hat, You need to go to school and take a couple logic classes and learn how to formulate a argument that will hold water in something other then a bar room debate.. Intelligent people don't take topics like this seriously because they understand that your argument is flawed and invalid from the start. This would be the reason the massive number of "Time to get out the tin foil hat" comments recently.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
I think that is an excellent point. My integrity has been attacked by these same Vanguard-haters/trolls and it effectively is a distraction from any important point being made. I have found that these people, when they find a position/opinion/idea that is contrary to their own, immediately attack the individual's integrity. When they being to flame a person, it is no longer about the issue but about the person. Therefore, the issue/idea cannot be explored and the mudslinging and vitriol starts launching both ways. The simple method of attacking an individual's integrity has a profound impact on the quality, standards, and thoughtfulness of discussion in the Vanguard section here.
The Vanguard-haters/trolls aim in doing this is to stifle any real discussion. I believe (at least I know I do) people visit these public forums for the opportunity to engage in meaningful discussion. People seek information, the sharing of ideas, and a sense of community. However, individuals cannot be confident in posting in the Vanguard section without fear they will be flamed, ridiculed and their integrity attacked.
I think it is shameful what these individuals have done to the quality of public discussion in the Vanguard section in MMORPG.
It's so much easier to dissmiss the actual comments with sarcasm isn't it? That is, rather than addressing the actual underlying issue with the community.
OK, granted, the OP seems to have forgotten to take his "special pill" for the day. That whole business with the Trojans and what not is so inane to the point of wanting to hit your head on a brick wall... repeatidly. BUT still, as wildly innacurate as the post may be, the essence of the point within the post hits a marker for many community members here who wonder about the true neutrality of this site now days.
I don't think any rational member of this community wants complete transperency, as a matter of fact, I don't think it's any of our business what happens in the background. IMO that would even include the people at Sigil asking as a favor not to review the game just yet. BUT (again) having said that, a little bit community management would go a LONG way to alleviating concerns over suspecious bannings, post deletions, cynical comments.
You can cack wise (yeah I used it ) all you want but the truth is, if this is comming up on almost daily basis and you don't feel it's at the very least a small sign that it's a problem, can you really blame the community for this sort of behavior. In effect you yourself are helping to fuel the flames of fire here and yet you are so quick to judge and crucify with sarcasm those who point out the facts, even in their most extreme versions.
Whilst, as you yourself pointed out, you've no need for the income anymore (must be nice
Well anyways, I guess I'll be dissmissed just as easily, or ignored or made fun of... all of which sounds like a good time
As the previous poster noted - there is really nothing I could do other than spray a little sarcasm on the fire. I mean, daily we get accused of things that there are zero backing for.
To be honest - I am not aware of the "suspicous bannings, post deletions, etc" - I don't run our community anymore - our Community Manager - Laura Genender takes care of this and she reports to our Managing Editor - Jon Wood. I pretty much stick to selling advertising and I let Jon handle all the site content and the crew. As I tell every advertiser, for itegrity reasons, I do not get involved in reviews, previews, or any content on the site...and trust me, this dissapoints a few that thing a large ad buy will somehow lead to coverage at the site, etc.
I can say that I have reviewed many complaints from members about bannings in the past few months and 95% of the time I can see a rule that has been broken, plain and simple. If you don't want your posts deleted and/or account banned - take a good look at the rules and make sure you follow them, without exception. I also know that Laura has reversed a lot of bans and deletions from mods that made mistakes (I know because we have to manually reverse them for her). From what I have reviewed I have not seen anything unfair going on around here.
However, Shae - you have been a valued member of this community for a long time. I respect your comments, and the professional manner in which you deliver them. If you have a case to make about the way our community is being handled I welcome you to email me with what you see happening (admin@mmorpg.com) - I never disregard emails from any member - I will look over your message and review your concerns and suggestions in our next staff meeting if it is warranted.
As for the Vanguard review, I honestly don't know what the delay is with it...I think Jon is really close to releasing it and I know the reviewer has been playing the game for over a month because we spoke about this at our last teleconference. It is not uncommon for MMORPG.com to release reviews months after a game is released - I have never liked the idea of rushing a MMORPG review. The recent early "review" of LOTRO was a mistake - no getting around that one...it was more or less a beta preview and offered little in respect to being a opinion piece. But we are not perfect, and mistakes will happen and we will learn from them.
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
Yes, that is correct. We are taking bribe money from SOE, Turbine, Sigil, CCP Games, NCSoft any many other companies according to so many of our tinfoil hat wearing members. But shhh...because we cannot let each of these companies know about the other's deals or we will be in big trouble!
Now...if I could only find those keys to my yacht!!!
Ya, there was just a tad of sarcasm in there
The point is valid though. We get accusations like this DAILY and referencing a different company every time. "You took money for this review" or "SOE paid you to delete my post" or "your looking through my window at night while I sleep, aren't you!" - so if all these are true then pretty much every game company and us included are corrupt.
Ask yourself. Would these companies actually risk their reputation to extend such a bribe? I mean the truth is we would expose them as crooks, if for no other reason it would be the story of the century - and we are a media site looking for loads of traffic. Or, would I actually tell a site volunteer moderator "hey, delete all bad posts about SOE games, and don't ask me why" - these people are volunteers - I highly doubt they would keep such a thing under wraps. One of the great thing about conspiracy theories is they fail to look at the blatantly obvious fact that people cannot keep their mouths shut...you can't have these major secrets that supposedly many people know about without some kind of leak. It is easy to just accuse someone or a business of some crooked deed with zero evidence and of course many jump on the bandwagon because it is fun and everyone loves a good witch hunt.
We make a decent businessselling ad space here, and the demand for it is far exceeding our supply of it - we don't need to take bribe money - not that we would ever do such a sick thing.
I mean - really, if we did not allow free speech here (within our rules) would I not have deleted this very topic?
Some other facts for the OP:
1) We have not had a goldseller ad on this site for over 5 months. However, we still have no policy against them...they are just not interested anymore in paying our "surcharge" for such ads.
2) We had nothing to do with the trojan attack on our site...it was planted in our servers by some group based out of China. Dear god man, do you actually thing we would do such a thing? We shut this site down after the final attack for THREE DAYS to move all of our servers behind a firewall and completely re-designed our network - to the tune of thousands of dollars in hardware and lost operating revenue.
Actually theres been some shady review practices regarding pre-built computer systems from some of the bigger companies. I want to say Alienware but I'm not sure. Basically whatever company it was threatened to or did remove their advertising money from the reviewing site/magazine because they're latetest system didn't get the review they wanted. So saying that gaming sites never take money or aren't presured into giving positive reviews might not be true. Not saying its the case here, but to dismiss people by saying they're "wearing tinfoil hats" may not entirely warranted.Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
I must admit it is very strange this site has not done a review of this game, being that it is a pretty major title in the marketplace. Did I miss it maybe or is there a reason there was no review?
I do appreciate your comments and think it's important to note that if more communication along EXACTLY these lines was done with the community on a semi-to-regular basis (I know you all have a job to do so it's not always possible) it would go a very long way to improving things with the community, espeically with the older members that have become somewhat cynical and dissenchanted with the way things have been heading with mmorpg.com.
To be clear though, I don't think anyone wants perfection, just communication and some clearity as to why and what happens sometimes.
There's alot of us older community members that have more or less left and would love a chance to collectively write a letter to present to you, an open letter that explains why we've left and what we feel has been hurting the community. Not a bitch fest mind you, we know this is a business for you and you need to treat it that way but at the very least an open dialogue so you would know where some of your community (past and present) stand.
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They did a preview of the game towards the end of beta, if I remember.
As for why no review post release?
Either A) SOE/Sigil didn't or hasn't provided them with a review account yet, or
None of the normal reviewers, who happen to be volunteers as far as I am aware, want to do a review of the game because they're tired of having people trash not only their review, but themselves as individuals as well.
Edit: Or they're just taking their sweet arse time with the review...
Well if we read Craig's post correctly, someone is in fact working on the review but he has no idea what point it's at now or what the delay is.
Which I feel further compounds my thoughts. If there was at least some sort of regular/honest contact with the community or at least a community manager actively seeking and responding to the community's questions then it wouldn't have to be a guessing game.
Guessing and wondering begats rumor mongering and thus creates these plain out silly accusations that as Craig said, happen every single day. There is a tear between actually and fabrication on the forums but no one is actively going about telling us the difference between the two so how it can it be expected to stop?
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Because you recon others won't go and read the thread made on that site?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
I must admit it is very strange this site has not done a review of this game, being that it is a pretty major title in the marketplace. Did I miss it maybe or is there a reason there was no review?
I agree completely Daff.... it works both ways.... which some folks tend to forget it seems.
Besides..these are internet gaming forums... not the Oslo Summits.... don't take things so personally, who cares if someone flames your views.... flame them back... or ignore them completely... you are free to do what you like.
But no need to bemoan a lack of civility on the forums here... people are free to have the views they want..and deliver them in the manner they choose..... we are not playing by Marquess of Queensberry rules here you know.
Back to the OP's point..I don't believe MMORPG.com is on SOE's payroll...they let me freely "critique" VG or any other game whenever I want... as long as I stay within the rules of the site.
As to the trojan story..not buying it...know too many people that Blizzard has recovered their accounts (3 in fact) when they lost them to keyloggers.... got all their gear restored as well as their gold.... I know, there's stories about other results..but I've not experienced them myself....
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sucking up to them to get into their good graces... absolutely.
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Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
nub OP, gtfo.
WTB Shadowbane 2
I'm sure they do, do favors for gaming companies. I would guess it is more along the lines of cutting slack on ad space. These guys are not stupid that run this site and they realize this is what makes their site what it is. I'd guess the reasons they started it was because they were fed up with all the bs and because it got them closer to the developers of the games they enjoy(the bs meaning, heavy handed moderation).
to the OP, no, i dont believe that this forum will do what you say. Have really seen many players bash not only VG but other games as well but their post is not deleted. Maybe you shld look at the words that you use when posting (if yours are being deleted everytime)
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For what it's worth these particular forums have been a shambles for months and its appreciated to see some actual moderation being done around here; it was sorely needed.
Most VG fans are happy to discuss negative issues with anyone - we are not in denial, we do not want to stop people from "knowing the truth" - heck, I reposted the "Will VG run on your PC" post from the official forums for people who come here for information re system specs.
Someone starts a screenshot thread - a nice comparison, if you want to see actual game shots from different gaming rigs - and trolls still fled to that thread with their "don't bother it sux" stock reply, forcing it to be locked. Some members really need to learn the meaning of subjectivity.
And now it appears that people are getting antsy that the VG review when it comes may actually be positive. Lol, positive or not, at least the reviewer is actually spending some time playing the game if the Admin post is accurate. How many times have you read an MMO review and got miffed cus it was obvious the reviewer didnt play enough to have a clue? Reminds me of some posters on this forum infact.
LOL.
Brad will tells you that MMORPG.com is the devil and to stay far from it, because the site support golds ADS and such lowly sites. Yet, Brad is afraid to alienate any potential customers, so he would never mention anything against MMORPG.com, directly or indirectly.
I was able to blast Vanguard as much as I felt it deserve it, and got no problem, no delete, no control from the staff here. Yet, when I point at a flaw in Vanguard, I don't go like; V sucks. Nope, that made non-sense and deserve to be deleted.
Vanguard could be better if:
- It has raid free servers with full loot enabled on them. (raiding loot could be sold at merchant if you don't figure another way)
- A friendlier, happier and overall more mature community then the l33t community it has atm, a MMO is defined by it players, so Vanguard is define by who play it...
- More honesty from the staff, less double edges talk.
- SoE would take over completely, these devs at SoE have many flaws, they even did the NGE and all, yet, they are good devs and usually more attuned to the player based then Sigil staff which think of a way to make a game so they, themselves, shines and excell in a game, no matter if that game is or not successfull. (Silly that despite making such a game, they still don,t shine but have usually to settle for honorary titles in uber guilds...lol) See, SoE devs want to be loved and liked, they want to be appreciated, like a puppy who pretend to bite you so you play with him, while Sigil devs they want the alpha position with their customers...not the same mentality at all.
- If the Vanbois would stop putting s**t in the devs heads. FoH, Silkyvenom and a few other sites should be banned from Sigil offices, so they don't deter or destroy their game.
- If the game was tuned to be more "computer-illetrates" friendly.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Sorry, but the funny sarcams on boths sides aside.
There is a very simple basic truth here that some people simply dont want to admit.
MMORPG is paid by ALL the mmo companies that advertise here.Their source of income is ALL those companies.Their purpose and route to that money is ADVERTISING/PROMOTING.
Thinking that this does NOT color how they handle/cover the disasters that MMOs are more frequently being turned out as, is just naive as heck.
Its not like the evidence is hard to see either.
Just look at how the rating system works .Just look at the scores given in reviews overall, and in customer service specifically in each.
Just look at how the major corporation backed games get much more attention in news articles,interviews, "special" features, etc....Heck just look at the lame hype only, no content answers, they settle for in those oh so "fact finding" "player informing" interviews.
MMORPG operates under a HUGE conflict of interest.And theres NO way they dont realize this.They know they are best served by putting the best face possible on each MMO companies porduct they are PAID to advertise.
If MMORPG had a real intent to serve the MMO community OVER the MMO corporations,theyed cut all direct revenue ties to the MMO corporations and do honest interviews that really had the intent to get REAL answers,instead of just another set of lines of generic hype.
BUT thats unlikely to happen, becuase that would bring MMORPG.com less money.AND they like the MMO corporations are a business whos very first concern is money.
NOW, all that said.MMORPG does have a place that it shines, at least compared to many other sites.Thats it forums.MMORPG as far as i can tell, does not bend over completely backwards in how it runs it forums , to the will of those MMO corporations.
And so when they (the hypers of these corps products)come to these forums to spout out the latest hype, the community is allowed to call them on it.Which is something thats getting rarer and rarer in the MMO forums , as these corporations seek to stop communications they cant control.Which is of course why so many MMOs are embracing the "no offical forum" stand.
So yes, MMORPG has a HUGE credibilty problem that they try VERY hard to dismiss when brought up, but they also stil manage to serve the MMO community in a way thats both needed and getting very rare(open forums).
Have you ever read this forum before OP? This place is filled with hatred for the game i find it hard to find pro vanguard posts here. If vanguard is paying off mmorpg they surely are getting ripped off...
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
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I am sorry but I find your reasoning quite flawed. The truth is that the business side of our website (thats me) and the editorial/forum moderation sides are completely seperate...as well as geographically seperate (I am in Hawaii, Laura the Comm. Mgr is in Virginia, USA and our Editor - Jon Wood lives in Nova Scotia Canada). We might have a phone chat once per month but topics like "hey Laura, ban users that talk bad about SOE" just don't happen, no matter how much you may want to think things are so cynical. I let everyone run their own department as long as I feel the represent our company well. Jon covers the stories he wants to without any influence from me..., I will take a step back and look at the big picture from time to time and say "we really are not covering enough sci-fi type games", or "let's focus on getting more videos", or "the forums are out of control, crack down harder on the rule breakers", etc - but it is unconnected to the advertising sales.
I mentioned this before I think, we don't have a hard time selling ad space - there is no need to kiss any butt to sell it or compromise our integrity and reputation. I have to reject half of the ad proposals because we just don't have enough traffic to sell to the demand. If SOE or whoever does not buy ads because we reviewed their game bad (but in all honesty, I have never heard a company say something like this) I don't care because I have 2 other clients ready for a phone call. The plain logistics of this all is that even if we DID favor company X it would only alienate us from company Y - which is foolish, especially when compounded with jeapordizing our image and reputation. If we did shady things like this I ASSURE you it would leak out at some point - people just don't takejuicy secrets like this to their grave, at least not for MMORPG.com - LOL.
As someone mentioned earler, people like yourself state these things because you don't have to present any evidence and it is something that no matter what, I could not present evidence to prove otherwise...however, that does not make your accusations true - not by any stretch.
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
[sarcasm]
ZOMG!! PROOF, PROOF I TELL YOU!!! PROOF THAT MMORPG.COM IS ON TEH DOLE(PINEAPPLE, MMM) FROM TEH COMPANIEZZZZZZZ!!!111
Edit: Also, if you add the number of words in Admins post times the square root of pi, plus a random number less than 666, you get 666. Thus proving that not only are they in bed with the companies, they are also the Great Satanz.
[/sarcasm]
Oh, and selective reading, quoting, whatever, ftw.
Absolutely, KariTR. I think some serious intervention from the Administration is necessary in these forums. You cannot shout "FIRE!" in a movie theatre, and you are not supposed to flame, troll, and just spout hatred on these forums. Flaming and trolling is attracting more flames and trolls but dissuading reasonable people from using MMORPG, sharing information, and participating in the community.
Nevertheless, based on my experience in the game, whether positive or negative, Vanguard is such an enormous and complex game that an honest review would require a significant amount of time. Further, the game is considerably different today from the game I played at release in terms of bugs, performance, the addition of solo and group content, etc. (If you state this, the flames/trolls think this is a lie, you are a van boi, work for SIGIL).
I look forward to the review, actually. I think MMORPG is an excellent source for information.