I want to have weapons, armor, and items that other people don't. That is honestly one of the biggest drives for a lot of MMO players.
you are kidding, right? how pathetic of a person do you have to be to sit there and type this with a straight face.
Most skilled people I meet, I mean really skilled, actually wish that gear and lvls were fairly static for all characters. That the main feature of an MMO wasn't ever spiraling "progression" or bigger numbers, but rather differentiating you character by making choices with consequences. That rather then grinding so that you won by having the l33t armor, you won because you made better strategic choices. When I enter a PvP situation I want to face opponents with the same strength level as me. I want to win based on skill, not raw power. I guess I'm just a Blizzard RTS veteran that views MMOs as a different king of competition, and I keep expecting to join games where we all start with the same resources. Even in PvE, I would prefer to zone into a raid instance with the resources necessary to defeat it, if I employ the right strategy and execute well. Farming mats for FR didn't enhance my Ragnaros experience at all, it just wasted my time.
Thats exactly how i felt, I'd much rather be geared the same in PVP & have skill decide not armor & weapons which sometimes i guess u can say skill was the case, since there have been tier 2 guilds that lost to dungeon set .5 or whatever that was. The raids were fun....after the farming to get there, though i was lucky enough to get the FR stuff when i was lvling still.
& for those who want weapns & armor that others don't have, well i never ever saw that in WoW, every major city i was in, there were 30 warriors with tier 2, 50 hunters in tier 2, 20 pallys tier 1, & so on & then when Naxx came, well, those ppl in tier 1 & 2, started all getting the tier 3 armor, I never saw just a few ppl with 1 weapon where i couldnt go & turn the corner & see 10 others with it.
I never thought WoW was for the "hardcore" gamers. None of those raids were ever so hard that 20+ guilds weren't doing it all the time. The only problem i found with them was that a lot of the raiding guilds wanted me or others to raid 7 days a week, well, I like to go out with friends or watch hockey or something, & not spend all night looking at a computer screen
games should be fun & not filled with so much hate & drama.... but that will never be.
I just felt like sharing my opinion, its a boring day today, no ones around /sigh
I didn't realize there were so many WoW clones...seeing WoW was the first MMO ever made..oh wait, wasn't there something before WoW, another MMO or 2 or 3 or ....
The trend is not toward casual gaming but dumb gaming.
Look at wow its anythign but casual , people hated when toa in daoc came out it took too long too much effort. WoWs endgame has been basicly that giant very long raids that no REAL CASUAL gamer could participate in.
IE WoW is not casual gaming, its dumb gaming. Everything is easy to do does not take much thought. And while soem people may define this as casual gaming, its not you can play chess casually ... it still takes skill and thought. Basicly casual = amount of time and how serious you are about the game. you can level in WoW casually but not play its end game. (Bc fixed this to soem degree, until they just release large raids agian .. wtf).
Now if i was asked is dumb gaming hurting the market, yes yes yes yes. look at WAR mythic totally sold out for the dumb gamer in that game. Everything has to be equal everything has to be fair. Now at least they didn't make all side use the same classes dumb gamers love this because they don't have to learn about the abilities of other classes to deal with them.
i often go back and play the oldies of mmos , i am suprized on the level of content they have , so much differing experince ... more than the new mmos why becuase differing experience mean player need to learn to deal with it.
Basicly the trend in mmos is to make games for lazy unthinking people, basicly interactive TV no wonder its popular people love to be lazy and hate thinking ... well it seems most peoples do (i sure as hell see it in the US).
Maybe i am wrong , but mmos today are being made DUMB so that Dumb people will play them and the rest of us who would liek a challenge would like content missout.
Doubt me go if you have never played daoc , go play it rvr and reguardless of your equipment youll get your butt kicked ... why skill not just caster or melee skill (which are very different) a good player can attack one target watch 3 other, heal interupt and dps , use items and abilities all at the same time.
You never see this in wow why becuase the game is made much easier for people who don't want to use skill. in this regard wow is more casual , however to get the equip (which is the most important thing in wow) you must be a child , student , unemployed, or have no family. Becuase it simiply takes a ton of time beyond casual gaming.
Still in daoc if your not eleet and have the skills .. no biggy grouping is pvp and you WORK together in them or die fast, this way group members watch out foreach other .. if not you die and sometime you die anyway... you never know what goign to happen you might be 8 people vs 20 ... you may win you will proably lose ... but not always.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
The OP must be deluded or something. The BC endgame in Wow is far more challenging than previous content. If you really think Blizzard catered to the casual gamer with the release of BC, everyone is laughing at you.
Just go look at the dungeon progression chart to get to the end game instances. I have some friends that raid and their impression that the content is harder than Naxxramas and they have not even reached all of the end game content yet.
Basically BC was a joke on the casual gamer, they just added more 5 man instances, the chances of a casual gamer getting to the end game content in BC is quite low, while even a casual gamer could enter all the previous raid instances by completing simple quest chains.
I want to have weapons, armor, and items that other people don't. That is honestly one of the biggest drives for a lot of MMO players.
you are kidding, right? how pathetic of a person do you have to be to sit there and type this with a straight face.Alright, then tell me, what drives you to play?
A community to share your time with? If that's all you want, then go out and find friends in real life. A place where you can take on an alter ego in a fantasy setting? Go play a solo RPG. At some level, no matter how much you may try to deny it, no matter who you are, you will always look at someone and go "man, his gear is horrible" or "wow, this noob has such crappy armor", and, if you're playing a game that posts a notification of when someone checks your gear, you always think at one point or another "yeah, that's right, check out what I have that you don't", or, Heaven forbid, you get that random tell/whisper/whatever from someone going "OMG that sword is awesome, where'd you get it?" and you sit there all smug while you respond. EVERY person who has ever played a game online thinks those things at least once, and usually far more than once, during their online career. Nobody can truly deny that on some level, that is a driving goal for them. If you even try to, you're lying to yourself and everyone else. The sooner you can come out and admit it, the better off you and the rest of the MMO community will be. You can try do dance around the issue all you want, but in the end, we all know the truth, even the others who deny it or try to cover up saying they just wanna RP or they like the community know it, the difference just happens to be that I am willing to come out and say it while so many others won't or are too afraid. And to be honest, after seeing all the responses and people lying through their teeth about their opinions and experiences, I suppose forums really aren't the place for me, because the single underlying problem that has come about through this experience is my discovery that, when all is said and done, I really don't care what the opinions of a bunch of people who are too scared, self-righteous, or immature to admit what their true feelings on an issue are, simply because they are too worried about what the other people on the forums might think of them.
As far as the casual gaming topic goes, I suppose I'll just reiterate my feelings on it, but in less vague terms. I think it is a huge problem for the market, but I think the people it will impact most are too blind to realize that fact. In five or ten years, when you're all sitting around wishing you had a good MMO to play, I hope you remember this post, because when that time comes, I'll be waiting for people to make posts about how all the MMOs out there are way too boring and don't have enough content and are designed for little kids, and when it happens, I'll be laughing about it.
In any case, I'm done with this post. Nobody wants to take it seriously and give any real thought to it, which I can't say really surprises me. Nobody ever wants to acknowlege problems until it's too late to do anything about it. Just don't say you didn't see it coming, because I've presented it all right here in black and white.
Lastly, to the select few of you who did think your responses through and contribute to the topic in a meaningful manner, I appreciate it, regardless of your opinion on the issue. It was interesting to see the reasoning and ideas that you had and has given me a few things to consider on the issue. Overall though, there were few who truly fit into this category, but I trust those who do know who they are.
I agree that having gear or level to show your accomplishments can be fun, but I fail to see why this requires “hardcore” material (if one describes it based on raid dungeons and time sinks).
All that is needed is a random loot system (random in stats, not only what is dropped). Looking at a game like WoW, they employ a set based system. This by no means creates uniqueness. In fact, I felt just as much a replica as I did in FFXI. It comes to a point, with this system employed, that nobody really cares what you have (though, they might care what you do not have).
I prefer having a weapon or armor piece that is unlike any other out there. I remember in Asheron’s Call when a friend gave me a fire sword that had phenomenal stats in comparison to what most people had. It was great in everything. It was a mere drop item, not a quest item. I showed it off to a friend and he said he would even pay me to allow him to tinker it. I only heard of two swords that were equal or better and they were not even on my server. It made me feel special and unique. Though I did play a lot, it required no greater amount of time or willingness to play a particular type of content.
I want to have weapons, armor, and items that other people don't. That is honestly one of the biggest drives for a lot of MMO players.
you are kidding, right? how pathetic of a person do you have to be to sit there and type this with a straight face. Alright, then tell me, what drives you to play?
What drives me to play? very good question. i play online games to form a tight group of friends that i can rely on that play the same hours that i do being 1-2 hours tops a night. we play togethor in a group lvl up togethor pvp togethor, you name it. ive been playing with the same people for 10 years now in mmo's. we are all very aware of what eachother are capable of doing in pvp. i play games to pvp because it brings a very competative edge that i find very enjoyable when i play games. my group depending on the game will spend days forming stategies that work against different classes in class based games and go over different aspects of pvp so when we fight people in the field we demolish them.
I want to have weapons, armor, and items that other people don't. That is honestly one of the biggest drives for a lot of MMO players.
you are kidding, right? how pathetic of a person do you have to be to sit there and type this with a straight face. Alright, then tell me, what drives you to play?
What drives me to play? very good question. i play online games to form a tight group of friends that i can rely on that play the same hours that i do being 1-2 hours tops a night. we play togethor in a group lvl up togethor pvp togethor, you name it. ive been playing with the same people for 10 years now in mmo's. we are all very aware of what eachother are capable of doing in pvp. i play games to pvp because it brings a very competative edge that i find very enjoyable when i play games. my group depending on the game will spend days forming stategies that work against different classes in class based games and go over different aspects of pvp so when we fight people in the field we demolish them. Quote this sh*t, for the truth. Play daoc or even l2 (not as bad as many say) bit in cox . and understand what it is to be playing an mmo not just some instances chat room. good post Dbknn
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Originally posted by MMoMoney Originally posted by lomillerIn actual fact casual/hardcore is about the intensity with witch you play a game and that mostly comes down to your scheduled and how much time you are willing to invest. There is no connection whatsoever between casual and simple.
Ok, you're right, then by that definition being casual is only a characteristic of the kind of player I have a problem with. Should I replace all instances of "casual" with "noob"? Would that be any better?
You know what I was trying to say so why argue over semantics instead of arguing the point? Is it because you have no argument?
MMOs are focusing on "casual" playstyle because of the type of players I've described (mmo noobs).
There have always been players who can't put in as much time as the next guy. But MMOs continued in the previous style of requiring more time investment. It wasn't until WoW had become wildly successful amongst non MMO players that this newfound focus on games with less playtime, and therefore less content, happened.
A game being aimed at an audience with less playtime means developers can cut costs on developing content before release, because they know they have enough time to develop new content post-release before their intended audience will exhaust the original content.
A game being targeted at "MMO noobs" does not require sophisticatication, because "noobs" don't have enough experience with game mechanics to understand the greater potential that advanced tools can give to expression of their avatar.
"MMO noobs" are the cause of the switch to focus on "casual" gaming, and therefore are the cause of oversimplistic and substance-lacking MMOs.
Thank you professor, may I leave class now?
Give every one the top armour and top gear with equal potions, and we'll see who the noob is. In my opinion this is the way to go if developers want to cater the casuals. Most of MMOs are fun until you cannot reach anywhere because of leveling differences between the hardcore and the casual. As you say, it's different to be casual than noob. You can go at your own pace, but what for? Just a time sink.
When you realize you'll *never* be able to reach somewhere in a game because you cannot invest enough time (not in quantity, but time spans) then frustation comes. And I do not mean not being able to win a match against that powerful uber player who (very wrongly) two shots you. I mean to reach content of the game.
But without going into content, and just between players, it's not about simple or complicated, it just that your Sword-of-Doom crits me for 4000 and I die, while you have 2x life and resistance than me. Complicated, yeah, for the casual! Along with that line, the rewards for the powerful players are just more powerful items, which just imbalances the game even more.
WoW tried to arrange this problem (and met failure in my opinion) with the expansion trying to level a bit the playing field of the equipment. But you'll still find people with 2x your hit points or damage and with that Sword-of-Owness. When the expansion went out, all the warriors were crying on forums how gimped they were, because they're wearing greens of blues from the quests and 5 men instances. After a few months most of them have their gladiator suit and epic axe, and will literally rape you whatever your class with their eyes closed.
Even with that, all the "hardcore" players are crying on forums that the new items "aren't worth the effort" lol because, even with these epics, the "noobs" give them a hard time (yes, before the expansion the situation was even more xtreme).
All in all, PvP in an mmorpg is greatly flawed. Equipment and levels are just the carrot on the stick to make players stay in the game. But I see shot'em ups without levels or equipment, and they've stayed aroud for longer time.
Originally posted by lomiller In actual fact casual/hardcore is about the intensity with witch you play a game and that mostly comes down to your scheduled and how much time you are willing to invest. There is no connection whatsoever between casual and simple.
Ok, you're right, then by that definition being casual is only a characteristic of the kind of player I have a problem with. Should I replace all instances of "casual" with "noob"? Would that be any better?
You know what I was trying to say so why argue over semantics instead of arguing the point? Is it because you have no argument?
MMOs are focusing on "casual" playstyle because of the type of players I've described (mmo noobs).
There have always been players who can't put in as much time as the next guy. But MMOs continued in the previous style of requiring more time investment. It wasn't until WoW had become wildly successful amongst non MMO players that this newfound focus on games with less playtime, and therefore less content, happened.
A game being aimed at an audience with less playtime means developers can cut costs on developing content before release, because they know they have enough time to develop new content post-release before their intended audience will exhaust the original content.
A game being targeted at "MMO noobs" does not require sophisticatication, because "noobs" don't have enough experience with game mechanics to understand the greater potential that advanced tools can give to expression of their avatar.
"MMO noobs" are the cause of the switch to focus on "casual" gaming, and therefore are the cause of oversimplistic and substance-lacking MMOs.
Thank you professor, may I leave class now?
Give every one the top armour and top gear with equal potions, and we'll see who the noob is. In my opinion this is the way to go if developers want to cater the casuals. Most of MMOs are fun until you cannot reach anywhere because of leveling differences between the hardcore and the casual. As you say, it's different to be casual than noob. You can go at your own pace, but what for? Just a time sink.
When you realize you'll *never* be able to reach somewhere in a game because you cannot invest enough time (not in quantity, but time spans) then frustation comes. And I do not mean not being able to win a match against that powerful uber player who (very wrongly) two shots you. I mean to reach content of the game.
But without going into content, and just between players, it's not about simple or complicated, it just that your Sword-of-Doom crits me for 4000 and I die, while you have 2x life and resistance than me. Complicated, yeah, for the casual! Along with that line, the rewards for the powerful players are just more powerful items, which just imbalances the game even more.
WoW tried to arrange this problem (and met failure in my opinion) with the expansion trying to level a bit the playing field of the equipment. But you'll still find people with 2x your hit points or damage and with that Sword-of-Owness. When the expansion went out, all the warriors were crying on forums how gimped they were, because they're wearing greens of blues from the quests and 5 men instances. After a few months most of them have their gladiator suit and epic axe, and will literally rape you whatever your class with their eyes closed.
Even with that, all the "hardcore" players are crying on forums that the new items "aren't worth the effort" lol because, even with these epics, the "noobs" give them a hard time (yes, before the expansion the situation was even more xtreme).
All in all, PvP in an mmorpg is greatly flawed. Equipment and levels are just the carrot on the stick to make players stay in the game. But I see shot'em ups without levels or equipment, and they've stayed aroud for longer time.
This never will happen in daoc unless you dience that all armor and equipment should be banned.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Believe it or not, as a casual WOW gamer who just returned to the game after a year off, I sympathize with the OP. The expansion completely negated months of work on the part of hardcore players. What's the point of racing to get the best gear only to find those hard-won epics were about as powerful as a green quest item in Outland?
That being said, Blizzard did the right thing in balancing gameplay so finally casual players could get some reward for their gameplay investment, which is not insignificant. If you spend 20 hours a week playing multiplayer shooters like Battlefield 2142, you will eventually get good weapons and reach the lower officer ranks. Let's not even compare what you could accomplish in offline RPGs - in the time it takes to level from 1-70, you could have finished almost every side-quest in both Oblivion and the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaigns, and probably have beaten Titan Quest to boot.
Under the old raid-or-die system of WOW, putting in a "mere" 20 hours a week meant you would remain a mostly green-item chump who sometimes gets invited to 40-man raids when everyone else is on vacation/down with the flu/etc. When I got the rare chance to join an uber-guild as a backup stringer in MC, I felt like a homeless bum who can't believe his luck that there's actually a bed available at the shelter. The barrier to PVP success was even higher, with the top gear only available to those who put in 80+ hours a week grinding battlegrounds. At least the new WOW ensures that casual players can steadily build up honor points for good gear, or at least gain access to decent blues and a few purples without having to take a second full-time job as a raider.
In other words, Blizzard finally recognizes that "casual" gamers in MMORPGs are actually quite committed to their hobby. Most marketing surveys I've seen show that the average console or FPS gamer spends between 8-13 hours playing a week, so a casual WOW player who puts in 15-20 hours a week is actually hardcore in comparison to every other genre. These players may not deserve the best weapons and gear, but they do deserve more than trash scraps left from the hardcore table.
Its kinda funny, I actually thought WoW endgame was too hardcore for my tastes.
I didn't like how it took 6 months to get to max level just so you can spend countless hours trying to get gear or grinding for rep. I think I would be perfectly happy playing a MMORPG with no gear grinding and none or next to no level/skill/rep grinding, cause to me that is the worst part of the game, I play to go on adventures with people, and fight in epic battles all while playing with my own character in a persistent world so I am not bothered by more casual games, rather pleased actually.
However it does seem that when games are more casual they also leave out more of the options of a hardcore game. It is a shame really, I would like to see a game with options of UO and/or SWG and the intuitive faster paced gameplay of WoW, yet most companies see it as an either or situation. Cause it would be WAY too hard to combine the concepts of fast and simple gameplay with deep customization options.
I don't really want games to be hardcore but I don't nessasarly want them to be softcore(casual), lets just call my idea game al dente.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
i can see where the op is coming from but i think the trend your gonna have is the truly hardcore mmorpgs such as ffxi will stay unchanged and aimed at serious players and games like wow have become a victim of there own success in that they have so many people now that they want to keep all the casuals so push the more hardcore out because they number maybes 5% of the total mass of wow players and the other casuals say 10 hours a week make up the bulk.
i think they need to find a balance but i cant see it happening anytime soon
Comments
Take out purely time based rewards.
Stop monthly payments.
Bring on mmorpg's for everyone to enjoy!
(yes this will be a blow for the heavy grind lovers)
Most skilled people I meet, I mean really skilled, actually wish that gear and lvls were fairly static for all characters. That the main feature of an MMO wasn't ever spiraling "progression" or bigger numbers, but rather differentiating you character by making choices with consequences. That rather then grinding so that you won by having the l33t armor, you won because you made better strategic choices. When I enter a PvP situation I want to face opponents with the same strength level as me. I want to win based on skill, not raw power. I guess I'm just a Blizzard RTS veteran that views MMOs as a different king of competition, and I keep expecting to join games where we all start with the same resources. Even in PvE, I would prefer to zone into a raid instance with the resources necessary to defeat it, if I employ the right strategy and execute well. Farming mats for FR didn't enhance my Ragnaros experience at all, it just wasted my time.
Thats exactly how i felt, I'd much rather be geared the same in PVP & have skill decide not armor & weapons which sometimes i guess u can say skill was the case, since there have been tier 2 guilds that lost to dungeon set .5 or whatever that was. The raids were fun....after the farming to get there, though i was lucky enough to get the FR stuff when i was lvling still.
& for those who want weapns & armor that others don't have, well i never ever saw that in WoW, every major city i was in, there were 30 warriors with tier 2, 50 hunters in tier 2, 20 pallys tier 1, & so on & then when Naxx came, well, those ppl in tier 1 & 2, started all getting the tier 3 armor, I never saw just a few ppl with 1 weapon where i couldnt go & turn the corner & see 10 others with it.
I never thought WoW was for the "hardcore" gamers. None of those raids were ever so hard that 20+ guilds weren't doing it all the time. The only problem i found with them was that a lot of the raiding guilds wanted me or others to raid 7 days a week, well, I like to go out with friends or watch hockey or something, & not spend all night looking at a computer screen
games should be fun & not filled with so much hate & drama.... but that will never be.
I just felt like sharing my opinion, its a boring day today, no ones around /sigh
I didn't realize there were so many WoW clones...seeing WoW was the first MMO ever made..oh wait, wasn't there something before WoW, another MMO or 2 or 3 or ....
The trend is not toward casual gaming but dumb gaming.
Look at wow its anythign but casual , people hated when toa in daoc came out it took too long too much effort. WoWs endgame has been basicly that giant very long raids that no REAL CASUAL gamer could participate in.
IE WoW is not casual gaming, its dumb gaming. Everything is easy to do does not take much thought. And while soem people may define this as casual gaming, its not you can play chess casually ... it still takes skill and thought. Basicly casual = amount of time and how serious you are about the game. you can level in WoW casually but not play its end game. (Bc fixed this to soem degree, until they just release large raids agian .. wtf).
Now if i was asked is dumb gaming hurting the market, yes yes yes yes. look at WAR mythic totally sold out for the dumb gamer in that game. Everything has to be equal everything has to be fair. Now at least they didn't make all side use the same classes dumb gamers love this because they don't have to learn about the abilities of other classes to deal with them.
i often go back and play the oldies of mmos , i am suprized on the level of content they have , so much differing experince ... more than the new mmos why becuase differing experience mean player need to learn to deal with it.
Basicly the trend in mmos is to make games for lazy unthinking people, basicly interactive TV no wonder its popular people love to be lazy and hate thinking ... well it seems most peoples do (i sure as hell see it in the US).
Maybe i am wrong , but mmos today are being made DUMB so that Dumb people will play them and the rest of us who would liek a challenge would like content missout.
Doubt me go if you have never played daoc , go play it rvr and reguardless of your equipment youll get your butt kicked ... why skill not just caster or melee skill (which are very different) a good player can attack one target watch 3 other, heal interupt and dps , use items and abilities all at the same time.
You never see this in wow why becuase the game is made much easier for people who don't want to use skill. in this regard wow is more casual , however to get the equip (which is the most important thing in wow) you must be a child , student , unemployed, or have no family. Becuase it simiply takes a ton of time beyond casual gaming.
Still in daoc if your not eleet and have the skills .. no biggy grouping is pvp and you WORK together in them or die fast, this way group members watch out foreach other .. if not you die and sometime you die anyway... you never know what goign to happen you might be 8 people vs 20 ... you may win you will proably lose ... but not always.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
The OP must be deluded or something. The BC endgame in Wow is far more challenging than previous content. If you really think Blizzard catered to the casual gamer with the release of BC, everyone is laughing at you.
Just go look at the dungeon progression chart to get to the end game instances. I have some friends that raid and their impression that the content is harder than Naxxramas and they have not even reached all of the end game content yet.
Basically BC was a joke on the casual gamer, they just added more 5 man instances, the chances of a casual gamer getting to the end game content in BC is quite low, while even a casual gamer could enter all the previous raid instances by completing simple quest chains.
A community to share your time with? If that's all you want, then go out and find friends in real life. A place where you can take on an alter ego in a fantasy setting? Go play a solo RPG. At some level, no matter how much you may try to deny it, no matter who you are, you will always look at someone and go "man, his gear is horrible" or "wow, this noob has such crappy armor", and, if you're playing a game that posts a notification of when someone checks your gear, you always think at one point or another "yeah, that's right, check out what I have that you don't", or, Heaven forbid, you get that random tell/whisper/whatever from someone going "OMG that sword is awesome, where'd you get it?" and you sit there all smug while you respond. EVERY person who has ever played a game online thinks those things at least once, and usually far more than once, during their online career. Nobody can truly deny that on some level, that is a driving goal for them. If you even try to, you're lying to yourself and everyone else. The sooner you can come out and admit it, the better off you and the rest of the MMO community will be. You can try do dance around the issue all you want, but in the end, we all know the truth, even the others who deny it or try to cover up saying they just wanna RP or they like the community know it, the difference just happens to be that I am willing to come out and say it while so many others won't or are too afraid. And to be honest, after seeing all the responses and people lying through their teeth about their opinions and experiences, I suppose forums really aren't the place for me, because the single underlying problem that has come about through this experience is my discovery that, when all is said and done, I really don't care what the opinions of a bunch of people who are too scared, self-righteous, or immature to admit what their true feelings on an issue are, simply because they are too worried about what the other people on the forums might think of them.
As far as the casual gaming topic goes, I suppose I'll just reiterate my feelings on it, but in less vague terms. I think it is a huge problem for the market, but I think the people it will impact most are too blind to realize that fact. In five or ten years, when you're all sitting around wishing you had a good MMO to play, I hope you remember this post, because when that time comes, I'll be waiting for people to make posts about how all the MMOs out there are way too boring and don't have enough content and are designed for little kids, and when it happens, I'll be laughing about it.
In any case, I'm done with this post. Nobody wants to take it seriously and give any real thought to it, which I can't say really surprises me. Nobody ever wants to acknowlege problems until it's too late to do anything about it. Just don't say you didn't see it coming, because I've presented it all right here in black and white.
Lastly, to the select few of you who did think your responses through and contribute to the topic in a meaningful manner, I appreciate it, regardless of your opinion on the issue. It was interesting to see the reasoning and ideas that you had and has given me a few things to consider on the issue. Overall though, there were few who truly fit into this category, but I trust those who do know who they are.
I agree that having gear or level to show your accomplishments can be fun, but I fail to see why this requires “hardcore” material (if one describes it based on raid dungeons and time sinks).
All that is needed is a random loot system (random in stats, not only what is dropped). Looking at a game like WoW, they employ a set based system. This by no means creates uniqueness. In fact, I felt just as much a replica as I did in FFXI. It comes to a point, with this system employed, that nobody really cares what you have (though, they might care what you do not have).
I prefer having a weapon or armor piece that is unlike any other out there. I remember in Asheron’s Call when a friend gave me a fire sword that had phenomenal stats in comparison to what most people had. It was great in everything. It was a mere drop item, not a quest item. I showed it off to a friend and he said he would even pay me to allow him to tinker it. I only heard of two swords that were equal or better and they were not even on my server. It made me feel special and unique. Though I did play a lot, it required no greater amount of time or willingness to play a particular type of content.
What drives me to play? very good question. i play online games to form a tight group of friends that i can rely on that play the same hours that i do being 1-2 hours tops a night. we play togethor in a group lvl up togethor pvp togethor, you name it. ive been playing with the same people for 10 years now in mmo's. we are all very aware of what eachother are capable of doing in pvp. i play games to pvp because it brings a very competative edge that i find very enjoyable when i play games. my group depending on the game will spend days forming stategies that work against different classes in class based games and go over different aspects of pvp so when we fight people in the field we demolish them.
What drives me to play? very good question. i play online games to form a tight group of friends that i can rely on that play the same hours that i do being 1-2 hours tops a night. we play togethor in a group lvl up togethor pvp togethor, you name it. ive been playing with the same people for 10 years now in mmo's. we are all very aware of what eachother are capable of doing in pvp. i play games to pvp because it brings a very competative edge that i find very enjoyable when i play games. my group depending on the game will spend days forming stategies that work against different classes in class based games and go over different aspects of pvp so when we fight people in the field we demolish them. Quote this sh*t, for the truth. Play daoc or even l2 (not as bad as many say) bit in cox . and understand what it is to be playing an mmo not just some instances chat room. good post Dbknn
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
You know what I was trying to say so why argue over semantics instead of arguing the point? Is it because you have no argument?
MMOs are focusing on "casual" playstyle because of the type of players I've described (mmo noobs).
There have always been players who can't put in as much time as the next guy. But MMOs continued in the previous style of requiring more time investment. It wasn't until WoW had become wildly successful amongst non MMO players that this newfound focus on games with less playtime, and therefore less content, happened.
A game being aimed at an audience with less playtime means developers can cut costs on developing content before release, because they know they have enough time to develop new content post-release before their intended audience will exhaust the original content.
A game being targeted at "MMO noobs" does not require sophisticatication, because "noobs" don't have enough experience with game mechanics to understand the greater potential that advanced tools can give to expression of their avatar.
"MMO noobs" are the cause of the switch to focus on "casual" gaming, and therefore are the cause of oversimplistic and substance-lacking MMOs.
Thank you professor, may I leave class now?
Give every one the top armour and top gear with equal potions, and we'll see who the noob is. In my opinion this is the way to go if developers want to cater the casuals. Most of MMOs are fun until you cannot reach anywhere because of leveling differences between the hardcore and the casual. As you say, it's different to be casual than noob. You can go at your own pace, but what for? Just a time sink.
When you realize you'll *never* be able to reach somewhere in a game because you cannot invest enough time (not in quantity, but time spans) then frustation comes. And I do not mean not being able to win a match against that powerful uber player who (very wrongly) two shots you. I mean to reach content of the game.
But without going into content, and just between players, it's not about simple or complicated, it just that your Sword-of-Doom crits me for 4000 and I die, while you have 2x life and resistance than me. Complicated, yeah, for the casual! Along with that line, the rewards for the powerful players are just more powerful items, which just imbalances the game even more.
WoW tried to arrange this problem (and met failure in my opinion) with the expansion trying to level a bit the playing field of the equipment. But you'll still find people with 2x your hit points or damage and with that Sword-of-Owness. When the expansion went out, all the warriors were crying on forums how gimped they were, because they're wearing greens of blues from the quests and 5 men instances. After a few months most of them have their gladiator suit and epic axe, and will literally rape you whatever your class with their eyes closed.
Even with that, all the "hardcore" players are crying on forums that the new items "aren't worth the effort" lol because, even with these epics, the "noobs" give them a hard time (yes, before the expansion the situation was even more xtreme).
All in all, PvP in an mmorpg is greatly flawed. Equipment and levels are just the carrot on the stick to make players stay in the game. But I see shot'em ups without levels or equipment, and they've stayed aroud for longer time.
Ok, you're right, then by that definition being casual is only a characteristic of the kind of player I have a problem with. Should I replace all instances of "casual" with "noob"? Would that be any better?
You know what I was trying to say so why argue over semantics instead of arguing the point? Is it because you have no argument?
MMOs are focusing on "casual" playstyle because of the type of players I've described (mmo noobs).
There have always been players who can't put in as much time as the next guy. But MMOs continued in the previous style of requiring more time investment. It wasn't until WoW had become wildly successful amongst non MMO players that this newfound focus on games with less playtime, and therefore less content, happened.
A game being aimed at an audience with less playtime means developers can cut costs on developing content before release, because they know they have enough time to develop new content post-release before their intended audience will exhaust the original content.
A game being targeted at "MMO noobs" does not require sophisticatication, because "noobs" don't have enough experience with game mechanics to understand the greater potential that advanced tools can give to expression of their avatar.
"MMO noobs" are the cause of the switch to focus on "casual" gaming, and therefore are the cause of oversimplistic and substance-lacking MMOs.
Thank you professor, may I leave class now?
Give every one the top armour and top gear with equal potions, and we'll see who the noob is. In my opinion this is the way to go if developers want to cater the casuals. Most of MMOs are fun until you cannot reach anywhere because of leveling differences between the hardcore and the casual. As you say, it's different to be casual than noob. You can go at your own pace, but what for? Just a time sink.
When you realize you'll *never* be able to reach somewhere in a game because you cannot invest enough time (not in quantity, but time spans) then frustation comes. And I do not mean not being able to win a match against that powerful uber player who (very wrongly) two shots you. I mean to reach content of the game.
But without going into content, and just between players, it's not about simple or complicated, it just that your Sword-of-Doom crits me for 4000 and I die, while you have 2x life and resistance than me. Complicated, yeah, for the casual! Along with that line, the rewards for the powerful players are just more powerful items, which just imbalances the game even more.
WoW tried to arrange this problem (and met failure in my opinion) with the expansion trying to level a bit the playing field of the equipment. But you'll still find people with 2x your hit points or damage and with that Sword-of-Owness. When the expansion went out, all the warriors were crying on forums how gimped they were, because they're wearing greens of blues from the quests and 5 men instances. After a few months most of them have their gladiator suit and epic axe, and will literally rape you whatever your class with their eyes closed.
Even with that, all the "hardcore" players are crying on forums that the new items "aren't worth the effort" lol because, even with these epics, the "noobs" give them a hard time (yes, before the expansion the situation was even more xtreme).
All in all, PvP in an mmorpg is greatly flawed. Equipment and levels are just the carrot on the stick to make players stay in the game. But I see shot'em ups without levels or equipment, and they've stayed aroud for longer time.
This never will happen in daoc unless you dience that all armor and equipment should be banned."Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Believe it or not, as a casual WOW gamer who just returned to the game after a year off, I sympathize with the OP. The expansion completely negated months of work on the part of hardcore players. What's the point of racing to get the best gear only to find those hard-won epics were about as powerful as a green quest item in Outland?
That being said, Blizzard did the right thing in balancing gameplay so finally casual players could get some reward for their gameplay investment, which is not insignificant. If you spend 20 hours a week playing multiplayer shooters like Battlefield 2142, you will eventually get good weapons and reach the lower officer ranks. Let's not even compare what you could accomplish in offline RPGs - in the time it takes to level from 1-70, you could have finished almost every side-quest in both Oblivion and the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaigns, and probably have beaten Titan Quest to boot.
Under the old raid-or-die system of WOW, putting in a "mere" 20 hours a week meant you would remain a mostly green-item chump who sometimes gets invited to 40-man raids when everyone else is on vacation/down with the flu/etc. When I got the rare chance to join an uber-guild as a backup stringer in MC, I felt like a homeless bum who can't believe his luck that there's actually a bed available at the shelter. The barrier to PVP success was even higher, with the top gear only available to those who put in 80+ hours a week grinding battlegrounds. At least the new WOW ensures that casual players can steadily build up honor points for good gear, or at least gain access to decent blues and a few purples without having to take a second full-time job as a raider.
In other words, Blizzard finally recognizes that "casual" gamers in MMORPGs are actually quite committed to their hobby. Most marketing surveys I've seen show that the average console or FPS gamer spends between 8-13 hours playing a week, so a casual WOW player who puts in 15-20 hours a week is actually hardcore in comparison to every other genre. These players may not deserve the best weapons and gear, but they do deserve more than trash scraps left from the hardcore table.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Its kinda funny, I actually thought WoW endgame was too hardcore for my tastes.
I didn't like how it took 6 months to get to max level just so you can spend countless hours trying to get gear or grinding for rep. I think I would be perfectly happy playing a MMORPG with no gear grinding and none or next to no level/skill/rep grinding, cause to me that is the worst part of the game, I play to go on adventures with people, and fight in epic battles all while playing with my own character in a persistent world so I am not bothered by more casual games, rather pleased actually.
However it does seem that when games are more casual they also leave out more of the options of a hardcore game. It is a shame really, I would like to see a game with options of UO and/or SWG and the intuitive faster paced gameplay of WoW, yet most companies see it as an either or situation. Cause it would be WAY too hard to combine the concepts of fast and simple gameplay with deep customization options.
I don't really want games to be hardcore but I don't nessasarly want them to be softcore(casual), lets just call my idea game al dente.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
i can see where the op is coming from but i think the trend your gonna have is the truly hardcore mmorpgs such as ffxi will stay unchanged and aimed at serious players and games like wow have become a victim of there own success in that they have so many people now that they want to keep all the casuals so push the more hardcore out because they number maybes 5% of the total mass of wow players and the other casuals say 10 hours a week make up the bulk.
i think they need to find a balance but i cant see it happening anytime soon
Newsflash: 90% of MMO players are "Casual Gamers"
MMOs don't require skill. Time Invested > Skill
http://www.TheGamersAssociation.com