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Guild Loyalty - Are You Loyal? (Poll)
healz4u
Member Posts: 1,065
Greetings!
In the past few years of gaming and forming and managing Guilds, I have come across what I believe is a change in the attitudes people have toward their Guilds. When I played Everquest full-time, it was common for a person who joined a Guild to remain in that one Guild for the person's lifetime of gaming. The only reason why some one would leave a Guild (typically but not always) was because the Guild merged with a Guild or because the individual stopped playing.
I would also be interested to know, if you would like to share, why do you join a Guild? What do you look for in a Guild when you join? What features are important to you as a gamer when selecting a Guild to join?
And furthermore, when the Guild is under pressure, or failing to achieve its goals, do you remain loyal? If you remain loyal do you undertake measures to contribute to the success of the Guild when it is struggling to accomplish its goals?
Thank you!
In the past few years of gaming and forming and managing Guilds, I have come across what I believe is a change in the attitudes people have toward their Guilds. When I played Everquest full-time, it was common for a person who joined a Guild to remain in that one Guild for the person's lifetime of gaming. The only reason why some one would leave a Guild (typically but not always) was because the Guild merged with a Guild or because the individual stopped playing.
I would also be interested to know, if you would like to share, why do you join a Guild? What do you look for in a Guild when you join? What features are important to you as a gamer when selecting a Guild to join?
And furthermore, when the Guild is under pressure, or failing to achieve its goals, do you remain loyal? If you remain loyal do you undertake measures to contribute to the success of the Guild when it is struggling to accomplish its goals?
Thank you!
Comments
I constantly face the fact that I am gimping myself because I am with a guild that doesn't have enough people online to play, but at the same time I worry that other guilds would try and force me to play when I cant. (work schedule fluctuates)
I have remained loyal, but many many others do not share this loyalty. I also played EQ and stayed in a guild from level 5 until I quit. I understand exactly what you're say, and i believe it stems from the game itself. EQ players could actually lose their reputation with the whole server.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Do you have an opinion on whether you think it is a good or bad thing that some games, by their design, do not encourage (or force) loyalty to one's Guild?
Do you have an opinion on whether you think it is a good or bad thing that some games, by their design, do not encourage (or force) loyalty to one's Guild?
Well, the amount of players has a negative effect on guild loyalty. If you have 3000 guilds to choose from you feel no real commitment. I think that it would be very difficult for a game like WoW to make guilds more of a requirement. Right now at level 70 I can progress to a certain point without a guild (pre-kara and heroics). Most players who aren't loyal to a guild are going to remain at this level, or only stick with a guild long enough to get epics.
In my opinion, DKP helps a lot. Even if a player only sticks around long enough to get some epics and leave, he or she has helped the guild enough to get everyone else epics. So the loss of one dps or healer isn't going to ruin your kara groups. You just have to be a good enough leader to deal with that kind of attitude.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Very interesting points, my Friend.
So you think DKP is one measure that encourages (some would say force) Guild loyalty? In other words, people "stick" with a Guild because there is DKP and not necessarily because they are loyal?
Do you have an opinion as well on voluntarily joining Guilds based on criteria such as a mission statement, value system, and perhaps even structure? That is, do you think Guilds would be stronger (or less so) if they joined not to "get epics" but because they were drawn to the Guild itself?
What other ways does a game play a role in encouraging or discouraging people from joining a Guild?
Very interesting points, my Friend.
So you think DKP is one measure that encourages (some would say force) Guild loyalty? In other words, people "stick" with a Guild because there is DKP and not necessarily because they want to?
Do you have an opinion as well on voluntarily joining Guilds based on criteria such as a mission statement, value system, and perhaps even structure? That is, do you think Guilds would be stronger (or less so) if they joined not to "get epics" because they were drawn to the Guild itself?
What other ways does a game play a role in encouraging or discouraging people from joining a Guild?
DKP is totally a guild loyalty management system. Without DKP every raid would consist of a lot of people saying "Well, I could use that for my "dps, heal, tank" set. I'm rolling need!" People stick with a guild because switching puts you back at 0 DKP and waste the person's time.
In my experience having guild policies and value systems are pointless until you can give your guildies a reason to follow them. If you are a casual guild you don't have a chance at making people follow rules. If you kick them you just lose a member.
I don't think anyone joins a guild for lively conversation and ethics. People want to progress in MMORPGs and guilds help players get together to progress. The only guild i've ever been in that was based around personality was one of gamers in my town. We raided with another guild, but kept our own name. Otherwise guilds like that never last/improve.
The only way games can force guild loyalty is to make progress guild based. If a game made you start over with no epics every time you switched guilds you would stick. A game could never accomplish this though.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Interesting point.
Do you think that people would prefer to join Guilds based on values and the mission of the Guild whether than joining to get epics or engage in raiding? That is, would gamers prefer to join the Guild for community?
I would like to point out that there is a major difference between leaving a guild when it is struggling and could use your help, and leaving a guild when those in a position of power are uncaring or unable to help reverse whatever situation is plaguing it. The first is disloyalty in my opinion, the second is simply being smart enough to not waste one's time fighting an impossible battle.
I for one loathe the need for a DKP system. I also am apparently among a dying breed of gamers that joins a guild primarily for the sake of camraderie. I don't give a shit whether or not the guild does well in terms of raiding, and in fact have yet to play any game where such is needed in a dedicated manner. The primary thing I look for in a guild is whether or not the people in it A.) Respect each other and B.) Know how to have fun in a game. Unfortunately, as reasonable as these two requirements seem to me personally, its left me guildless in a lot of games. Heh, thank god I managed to be in a position to help build such a guild from the ground up this time for AoC.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Absolutely!
When I played World of Warcraft, for more or less 8 months, I actually left my first WoW Guild (I was an Officer) and formed what would become the second most effective raiding-guild on our server. I felt terrible about leaving, but I understood it was necessary. Many individuals left with me and we formed our new Guild on the ashes of our old Guild.
I think it might be important to state that, although we left the Guild, we remained loyal to each other as a community. Do you think that people remain loyal to each other as a community (and I am not referring to cliques in a Guild or a group of friends)?
I for one loathe the need for a DKP system. I also am apparently among a dying breed of gamers that joins a guild primarily for the sake of camraderie. I don't give a shit whether or not the guild does well in terms of raiding, and in fact have yet to play any game where such is needed in a dedicated manner. The primary thing I look for in a guild is whether or not the people in it A.) Respect each other and B.) Know how to have fun in a game. Unfortunately, as reasonable as these two requirements seem to me personally, its left me guildless in a lot of games. Heh, thank god I managed to be in a position to help build such a guild from the ground up this time for AoC.
I hate DKP as well. The only time I've ever had to submit to it was in EQ. I have never been an avid raider.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
the problem with WoW was it was too easy to create a guild and you had about a thousand guilds looking for players. Not only did that split people up but would establish people leaving guilds often when they discover the guilds they've joined just doesn't have people.
That all sounds really "holier than thou," but I assure you I think myself better than no one else. All things considered I can objectively sit back and assess myself and my environment. What I have noticed through it all is that the path of absolute loyalty (assuming the guild doesn't violate individual morals) can often lead to unhappiness in the gaming world.
As an example - for the two years that I played WoW, I was with one guild. The guild started off small and was extremely laid back. Me being the addict I was at the time; leveled to 60 really quickly. Raiding Onyxia was really big back then but my guild held me back simply because of or size and playstyle. It was a small "casual" guild. I think the real problem was that the people in the guild were really really good people. They believed as I did and we only really differed as it pertained to guild progression speed. So I bit the bullet and did things to bide my time. To save some time I'll do a quick summary: Guild slowly grew, I finished leveling my thrid 60, council voted to have me lead guild as previous guild leader got busy, I reorganized things to focus on raiding but still allow the casual aspect, we grew somemore, put in a DKP system, and were coming along. The thing about the guild that ended up draining myself and a lot of the "core" council members was that the guild was based on conflicting ideals. Some wanted casual play to be at the forefront, while others wanted raiding to be of max importance. Again, the problem was we all liked each other so much that each side ended up swallowing their concerns and settling for an uncomfortable compromise. Raiders had to settle for lack luster unprepared raiders, while casuals had to make allowances for 3 days of raiding for 2-3 hours each week.
I know I've said it many times throughout the post but the problem for me was that at its core the guild was made up of really genuin level-headed people. (I know...ironic that that'd be the problem) I should also pause and say that my goal was not to be "the best" in raid content progression, but to just bring 100% throughout the week; meaning a steady roster of people who came prepared with potions etc.
Skip ahead to the present and I've long since quit WoW. The day came where the guild just shrugged off going after the last boss in AQ 40 (I've forgotten his name) when we had cleared to him the previous day. Those of you who know about the clear from Twin-Emps to C-thun (his name just came to me) will understand my disappointment ESPECIALLY when you're new at it and wiped damn near every pull. That was the final straw for me. I couldn't stomach joining another guild and breaking the trust I had built with my guild so.... I just quit WoW altogether. The same people who had given me some degree of enjoyment and actually made me stay with WoW ended up causing me to quit.
I typed all that to say that maybe true loyalty isn't always a good thing in MMOs. In the end I came to the conclusion that one only needs to do what makes them happy - loyalties and relationships be damned. Inevitably a gaming experience will peak and its at that point where people will reflect and attempt to rationalize the time they've spent in the game. If one finds himself like me, with regret; then I'd pose the question - Is loyalty necessarily a good thing in an MMO?
By the way, can anyone provide better alternatives to using DKP in forced-guilding (zerg-raiding) games?
The biggest problem guilds face is player turnover. Real life happens. People become inactive in games. So sometimes guilds die through inactivity, the wrong people being online, and not being able to recruit replacements.
I think the future of online gaming is a guildless and groupless structure. If the player considered the entire population of the game his group or his guild then you wouldn't have the heavy impact of player turnover making some people not be able to do some content in games.
WAR has something called a public quest system. In this area or zone everyone can contribute to completing some series of events to complete the "Public Quest". Everyone is rewarded individually based on the amount they contributed to the completion of the task. That is how I wish an entire game was designed. I want to be able to heal anyone, I want to be able to buff anyone, I want to be able to help anyone achieve their task. I do not want to be limited by an imaginary 6 man group limit. I want to feel like the entire population is my group instead of competition.
Sure, people will always form groups and work together. I know this. Friends have their teamspeak and vent servers and they talk on those instead of in game. There is nothing wrong with that. Let people hang out with whoever they want to. But do not put mechanisms in the game that divide the playerbase and force players to make decisions of who they want to hang out with and who they wont hang out with. The current implementation of groups and guilds in most games is destructive and anti-social. 10 friends want to hang out and play with each other but the game only allows 6 man groups. The game is forcing players to leave 4 people out of the group of friends.
Eliminate guild and group mechanisms from the game and design the game where the entire population is your group or guild. If players want to make their own social cliques that is fine. But the game should not facilitate in the segregation of players.
But if you want a loot focused game... how about a treasure room type of deal. Instead of a monster dropping set loot. Each member of the raid was able to raid the treasure room of the foe and pick an item from the treasure room.
It is up to the developers to solve the ingame problems and in game mechanics. Either that or play a game that does not have these loot problems.
"Loyalty" is frequently used as a bludgeon to keep people doing things they no longer wish to do. If people feel they want to move on to different experiences there is no reason "loyalty" should be the reason they are denied that opportunity.
The raiding aspect of a MMOG compounds this a great deal. If a guild cannot achieve success at a certain tier of raiding, and a player wants to be involved in the content that the guild cannot reach, what choice does the player have? Either move on to another guild that can achieve that success or simply be denied the opportunity.
A person who wishes to move on should always be given the freedom to choose. Loyalty is not an override against enjoying one's experience in a hobby.
I think that is an excellent suggestion!
I also think that "end-game" loot should be obtainable through alternative means other than zerg-raiding. Therefore, if people enjoy zerg-raiding they could elect to join a Guild and do that. Individuals who prefer to solo, craft, or group could obtain comparable gear but would not be required (*forced) to join a Guild to achieve that.
I think that is a great suggestion, gpett.
Edit: By the way, I think you are right that the direction of MMORPGs is toward a "groupless and guildless" power structure. I think it is moving toward a more optional framework in which grouping and guilding are not (forced) required to experience and enjoy the game.
Great points.
Good point.
Therefore, when the Guild impedes your ability to experience and enjoy the game and limits your access to content, a Guild Member does not owe a duty to remain in that Guild?
Short of making promises to never leave, or some similar manner of oath, the answer is a definite "no".
Also, all guilds which have fallen on hard times have had numerous members leave. It's a natural phenomena in games which require great dedication to excel in.
Personally when I look for a guild I look for a group of people who think like I do. That the REAL WORLD is far more important than the game and they will respect it if you suddenly have to leave, or can't stay on for any great length of time regularly because of kids, job, wife, girlfriend, etc. I look for a mature group of people who don't overuse shortcut speach (leetspeak) or foul language. And, of course, I look for an organized group of people who work together and work efficiently and as a team. While I don't always have lots of time to be on when I AM on I expect people who are playing with me to either know what they're doing or be willing to learn. Being new is ok... refusing to listen to those who've been around isn't. Basically I look for:
Maturity
Effectiveness
Friendliness
Fun-seeking
People who realize that, at the end of the day: It's just a game.
Unfortunately this is the most common reason people leave guilds that they joined unless they have personal friends within the guild or have formed lasting bonds with the members of the guild. This has been true with every gaming guild, both MMO, online, offline, tabletop, etc. When the going gets tough the fair-weather members get going. Personally it depends on whether I feel there's a realistic chance of turning things around when this happens. In some cases there just isn't. In others there is.
You're welcome
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
...
Even Ultima Online had a form of loot which players could eventually accomplish. Houses and rares were the carrot in that respect.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
I helped build the guild I was in in Everquest. We changed names a couple times, and went through a lot of changes over the years, but it was basically the same group of people that were all friends and liked to play together. One of the major changes, and last change I experienced before leaving the game, was when we were at 200+ members. We were so big and had so many mini cliques within the guild. Not everybody agreed all the time and we had different factions going different ways a lot. We raided successfully, but it was hard to get everyone on the same page, especially nearing the 250-300 members mark.
Finally, we cut it down to 100-120 members and started gearing up for heavy raiding. Once dkp was sorted out, and we honed the guild down to a workable number of people, we worked our way to the top of the server and were getting server and world firsts. Yay, good for us.
Now that I play Everquest 2, the raids are a bit smaller. I first belonged to a great friends guild with people I played with and got along with. We kept the membership around the 100 mark and didn't really look for members past that, although we didn't refuse someone we liked and wanted to join. You have to really watch who you let in your guild nowadays as there are people that will join guidls, gain your trust, then clean out the guild bank and leave. That happened twice. The first time it hurt, as we weren't ready for it and the bank was wide open. We were all friends, why should we lock up the bank? The second time they didn't get much. A bunch of common crap and stuff that wasn't worth much because we locked people out of the rares and spells banks.
The leader quit the game, and they were looking for a new leader. They asked me, but I refused as I wanted to be in a heavy raiding guild again. I missed the hustle and bustle of being in an active raiding guild that always kept things moving and you always got to figure out new content before everybody else. I left that guild, still keep in touch (they're still good friends of mine), and joined a heavy raiding guild. The new guild keeps its numbers small, around 50, and use dkp, and demand high playtimes and you must show up for raids and events if you're online. I love this guild, they're all great people, and they are all good friends and I get to keep at the top of my game, which is what I like.
All of that to say:
Guilds, just like games, are different things for different people. Some people just want friendships and help killing badboss4, or just a group to talk to and trade secrets and group with. Some use guilds to get free stuff. Some people don't like guilds at all and just run around friendless.
Some join a guild to get what they want. They want to play endgame and want to hit high profile targets. Some just wanna be the best of the best. Everyone wants something different out of their game experience. And being MMO's what they are, MOST people look to (friends, groups, guilds) to do it with. Someone looking for the same experience to share with.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
My loyalty isn't something I grant lightly.
You can invite me if I am guildless and I will join. However, earning my loyalty is something the guild has to do. I don't work the other way around. When a guild try to invite me, then they say I must do X or Y, I laugh and decline. When I see them change their policy for me, because I am l33t and uber, I start laughing even harder.
If the guild is not worthy of my presence, I would quit them with no remorse. I have "high morales", I expect the same from my guild. I try to be an example to every player when I play, and I do all I can in order to be. Blind obedience is a weakness I spit on. f the guild KS, train, abuse noobs in anyway, you can be sure I would not only quit them, but I will harm them when I do.
If the guild is a paragon of virtue, I would do everything I can to defend, promote and help it.
This is not negociable, nor open for debate. I must admire my guild leader, not envy him. I must respect my guild. The fact I am the most skilled (often the case) or a noob in the guild is irrelevant to me. I would lead or follow them anywhere, if they are up to it. If they harm 1 innocent noob, they would have to explain themselves.
My guild doesn't have to help any player, but the golden rule is...they must have a positive impact on each and every other player unless they prove themselves as jerks and deserve to be punished for the greater good of the server (FoH would definitely qualify as deserving of eternal punishments).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Play to see a new area in the game you have not seen before. Joke with online friends. Try new tactics. PvP. Do all of the quests. Figure out puzzles in the game. Oh, and I think games used to be fun to play. Lets bring that back too.
Excellent post, Elnator.
However, you had this experience with Everquest 1 in which people would, the term is, "Guild-hop?" I am not sure if "guild-hopping" is a fair term or not, but I found that to not be the case in all the games I have played in Everquest. However, what was your experience like?