Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
actually, you cant take a definition of a genre by its literal meaning. My guess is you are just assuming its so rather than knowning for a fact. The RPG is a name given to classify a certain genre of game that meets a number of requirements. Remember genres are used for claffication. There can be mixed genres but no genre itself would be considered another genre, or else the point of classification is moot.
So for game developers, they usually have to meet set expectations if they are aiming for a specific genre and or subgenre.
The rpg is not just a role playing game. Thats just what the letters stand for, but abreviations are not limited or defined by literal meaning, they can be, but usually theres more too it. Nice try though.
WORST RPG : Oblivion... I swear, I want my money back from Todd Howard himself, until then, I don't want to go near anymore Bethesda products. Not even Fallout 3....
Best RPG? Ha - hands on - Lands of Lore 2 : Guardians of Destiny...accidentally clicking during a conversation and hitting the Huline Savage Shaman....Biiiiiggg mistake...
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
actually, you cant take a definition of a genre by its literal meaning. My guess is you are just assuming its so rather than knowning for a fact. The RPG is a name given to classify a certain genre of game that meets a number of requirements. Remember genres are used for claffication. There can be mixed genres but no genre itself would be considered another genre, or else the point of classification is moot.
So for game developers, they usually have to meet set expectations if they are aiming for a specific genre and or subgenre.
The rpg is not just a role playing game. Thats just what the letters stand for, but abreviations are not limited or defined by literal meaning, they can be, but usually theres more too it. Nice try though.
Any game that you undertake a role, follow a story, and the point is to undertake a series of adventures and quests, is an rpg. These are the basics in making an rpg, depth, immsersivness, and story. Look at any rpg these features are in there, it's just that people won't name frogger an rpg even though your roleplaying a frog trying to cross a highway, simply cause it isn't the right genre.
Baldurs Gate followed immediately by Planescape: Torment.
Sadly, my new uberfast PC with the great graphical games like Dark Messiah and Oblivion just doesn't give me the RPG feeling anywhere near BG or Planescape.
I loved Ultima Underworld when it came out. It was way ahead of its time.
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
actually, you cant take a definition of a genre by its literal meaning. My guess is you are just assuming its so rather than knowning for a fact. The RPG is a name given to classify a certain genre of game that meets a number of requirements. Remember genres are used for claffication. There can be mixed genres but no genre itself would be considered another genre, or else the point of classification is moot.
So for game developers, they usually have to meet set expectations if they are aiming for a specific genre and or subgenre.
The rpg is not just a role playing game. Thats just what the letters stand for, but abreviations are not limited or defined by literal meaning, they can be, but usually theres more too it. Nice try though.
Any game that you undertake a role, follow a story, and the point is to undertake a series of adventures and quests, is an rpg. These are the basics in making an rpg, depth, immsersivness, and story. Look at any rpg these features are in there, it's just that people won't name frogger an rpg even though your roleplaying a frog trying to cross a highway, simply cause it isn't the right genre.
But you are WRONG. That is the ignorant response many like to give when they "think" they know what an RPG is. You clearly do not. I dont want to be rude about it, but if you are going to be as dumb as a plank of wood theres no point in this discussion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you are only being temporarily ignorant and therefore explain it to you.
The rpg is a what? Genre. A genre is a what? way to classify and organize by definition. Ok, now lets look at the RPG (from what numerous game developers past and present have defined the rpg as (when it was first created).
It's not about a story. All games can have story. Its not about immersiveness, all games can be immersive. Most games have you play a role. These are not defining of an RPG. Duh. So what is the key requirements of an rpg? Simple:
Warren Spector offers:
RPG is a game in which character development and character interaction take precedence over other factors and where each player's experience of the story is determined by individual choice rather than designer fiat . . . Of greatest importance, this definition eliminates adventure games, which share with the RPG an emphasis on story and character. What adventure games lack - and this is a critical point - is the capability for players to grow and develop their characters, and to affect, if not the outcome of the story, than the way in which the story unfolds. Without both character development and genuine choices placed within a player's control, a game cannot be called a role-playing game, as I choose to define the genre (Remodeling 1).
Key features found in an RPG. Not all are always included, but relying only on one or two would not make an rpg.
*a form of resource management
*Character(s) growth and advancement. (items, personal abilities..ect)
*statistic based. ( stems back to the wonderful days of the 20 sided dice)
*choice (choice of story direction) (an idea of cause and effect)
*possible emotional attachment to the world and or character(s) (you might call this a precursor to immersion)
You have to remember, the rpg was created way back in the 70s when old games showing up in the 80s were not reliant on story at all.
I suggest possibly educating yourself by reading some great articles about this subject as i wish not to write out a damn essay for your enlightenment.
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
actually, you cant take a definition of a genre by its literal meaning. My guess is you are just assuming its so rather than knowning for a fact. The RPG is a name given to classify a certain genre of game that meets a number of requirements. Remember genres are used for claffication. There can be mixed genres but no genre itself would be considered another genre, or else the point of classification is moot.
So for game developers, they usually have to meet set expectations if they are aiming for a specific genre and or subgenre.
The rpg is not just a role playing game. Thats just what the letters stand for, but abreviations are not limited or defined by literal meaning, they can be, but usually theres more too it. Nice try though.
Any game that you undertake a role, follow a story, and the point is to undertake a series of adventures and quests, is an rpg. These are the basics in making an rpg, depth, immsersivness, and story. Look at any rpg these features are in there, it's just that people won't name frogger an rpg even though your roleplaying a frog trying to cross a highway, simply cause it isn't the right genre.
But you are WRONG. That is the ignorant response many like to give when they "think" they know what an RPG is. You clearly do not. I dont want to be rude about it, but if you are going to be as dumb as a plank of wood theres no point in this discussion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you are only being temporarily ignorant and therefore explain it to you.
The rpg is a what? Genre. A genre is a what? way to classify and organize by definition. Ok, now lets look at the RPG (from what numerous game developers past and present have defined the rpg as (when it was first created).
It's not about a story. All games can have story. Its not about immersiveness, all games can be immersive. Most games have you play a role. These are not defining of an RPG. Duh. So what is the key requirements of an rpg? Simple:
Warren Spector offers:
RPG is a game in which character development and character interaction take precedence over other factors and where each player's experience of the story is determined by individual choice rather than designer fiat . . . Of greatest importance, this definition eliminates adventure games, which share with the RPG an emphasis on story and character. What adventure games lack - and this is a critical point - is the capability for players to grow and develop their characters, and to affect, if not the outcome of the story, than the way in which the story unfolds. Without both character development and genuine choices placed within a player's control, a game cannot be called a role-playing game, as I choose to define the genre (Remodeling 1).
Key features found in an RPG. Not all are always included, but relying only on one or two would not make an rpg.
*a form of resource management
*Character(s) growth and advancement. (items, personal abilities..ect)
*statistic based. ( stems back to the wonderful days of the 20 sided dice)
*choice (choice of story direction) (an idea of cause and effect)
*possible emotional attachment to the world and or character(s) (you might call this a precursor to immersion)
You have to remember, the rpg was created way back in the 70s when old games showing up in the 80s were not reliant on story at all.
I suggest possibly educating yourself by reading some great articles about this subject as i wish not to write out a damn essay for your enlightenment.
Listen, I don't know why your trying to start an argument over this, but let me explain a few things, simple games like I mentioned (diablo for example) has all your "key features" that are supposed to be in an rpg. You level up, you choose your class, you choose your equipment, you choose which quests to do and not do (sidequests only, obviously quests to progress the story need to be done), immerssivness is PURELY on the player, since some people CAN be fully immersed in a simple dialogue game like diablo, or it might take huge amount of stories like the final fantasy series.
NOW, if I follow your rpg "definition", then even FF7 wouldn't be completely an RPG, due to the fact that the story (again not the side quests or mini games) is a one way track. RPGS started as text based and PnP and choices were vast since you created all these new choices and stories changed on a dime, but video games changed the rpg genre, due to the fact that you can't have 30 different endings, or you can't skip crucial game events. IF every single RPG HAD to be able to change due to our decisions as a gamer, well the RPG world would consist of VERY FEW titles.
Look, I don't know why you got angry and why you questioned my intelligence and poked fun at it, just cause your trying to prove a point, that obviously isn't 100% factual. Just read over this post and think for a minute before you type a response, cause I don't want you starting a flamewar just cause you didn't comprehend what I wrote.
P.S Please don't correct me on spelling and judge my writing skills, if I wanted to prove my writing skills, it would not be on a message board, I am just trying to join a conversation.
Originally posted by Leonidus0 Final Fantasy 7, hands down.. no competition. If you're a RPG fan and you haven't played FF7, then you are not really a RPG fan now are you?
This is the only truth that can be considered truth, in this thread.
Some great opinions here, but FFVII is the ultimate RPG, and it takes everything down. Even the Elderscrolls, which is crazy hard to do.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by JPR1985 Listen, I don't know why your trying to start an argument over this, but let me explain a few things, simple games like I mentioned (diablo for example) has all your "key features" that are supposed to be in an rpg. You level up, you choose your class, you choose your equipment, you choose which quests to do and not do (sidequests only, obviously quests to progress the story need to be done), immerssivness is PURELY on the player, since some people CAN be fully immersed in a simple dialogue game like diablo, or it might take huge amount of stories like the final fantasy series. NOW, if I follow your rpg "definition", then even FF7 wouldn't be completely an RPG, due to the fact that the story (again not the side quests or mini games) is a one way track. RPGS started as text based and PnP and choices were vast since you created all these new choices and stories changed on a dime, but video games changed the rpg genre, due to the fact that you can't have 30 different endings, or you can't skip crucial game events. IF every single RPG HAD to be able to change due to our decisions as a gamer, well the RPG world would consist of VERY FEW titles. Look, I don't know why you got angry and why you questioned my intelligence and poked fun at it, just cause your trying to prove a point, that obviously isn't 100% factual. Just read over this post and think for a minute before you type a response, cause I don't want you starting a flamewar just cause you didn't comprehend what I wrote.P.S Please don't correct me on spelling and judge my writing skills, if I wanted to prove my writing skills, it would not be on a message board, I am just trying to join a conversation.
He's starting an argument because for some people, seeing mistaken definitions is a painful thing. I am one of these people. Without classifications, nothing would have meaning. Sometimes it is hard to put things into categories, but unless we do so, we will be unable to discuss things easily.
Now that that's out of the way, let's get into this. Roleplaying Game has a spcific denotation, it's true: a game in which you play a role. Obviously. But like Rabenwolf said, the denotation is not the only thing to look at when thinking about this. And, again like Rabenwolf has said, RPG is a genre acronym, and usually we don't even worry about the words themselves. I think wolf posted some great qualities for what a RPG, but I think failed to mentioned how important some of them are. Remember that the most important is probably that your character(s) in some increases in power as you go along, usually by leveling up skills or character levels.
FFVII is THE RPG. Now, I know that you can't change what happens at the end. You fight Sephiroth. It's true, but most RPGs have you fight a final boos at the very end. However, throughout the game, you are required to make choices about what to do, and it makes little changes in how the story unfolds, and which characters stay with Cloud. I don't know what else you might think FFVII doesn't have, but trust me when I say that it does have it. It is the benchmark by which I judge all RPGs I have played after it. Most don't even come close.
But you can't count games like Half-Life as a RPG. Yes, you take on a role, a specific role, and it's very immersive if you let it be, and a well-crafted story is told, but it is NOT a RPG. It just isn't.
This is a delicate thing, but you can't just lump any game that has you play a role as a roleplaying game. That's not how this works. Seriously.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Listen, I don't know why your trying to start an argument over this, but let me explain a few things, simple games like I mentioned (diablo for example) has all your "key features" that are supposed to be in an rpg. You level up, you choose your class, you choose your equipment, you choose which quests to do and not do (sidequests only, obviously quests to progress the story need to be done), immerssivness is PURELY on the player, since some people CAN be fully immersed in a simple dialogue game like diablo, or it might take huge amount of stories like the final fantasy series.
NOW, if I follow your rpg "definition", then even FF7 wouldn't be completely an RPG, due to the fact that the story (again not the side quests or mini games) is a one way track. RPGS started as text based and PnP and choices were vast since you created all these new choices and stories changed on a dime, but video games changed the rpg genre, due to the fact that you can't have 30 different endings, or you can't skip crucial game events. IF every single RPG HAD to be able to change due to our decisions as a gamer, well the RPG world would consist of VERY FEW titles.
Look, I don't know why you got angry and why you questioned my intelligence and poked fun at it, just cause your trying to prove a point, that obviously isn't 100% factual. Just read over this post and think for a minute before you type a response, cause I don't want you starting a flamewar just cause you didn't comprehend what I wrote. P.S Please don't correct me on spelling and judge my writing skills, if I wanted to prove my writing skills, it would not be on a message board, I am just trying to join a conversation.
He's starting an argument because for some people, seeing mistaken definitions is a painful thing. I am one of these people. Without classifications, nothing would have meaning. Sometimes it is hard to put things into categories, but unless we do so, we will be unable to discuss things easily.
Now that that's out of the way, let's get into this. Roleplaying Game has a spcific denotation, it's true: a game in which you play a role. Obviously. But like Rabenwolf said, the denotation is not the only thing to look at when thinking about this. And, again like Rabenwolf has said, RPG is a genre acronym, and usually we don't even worry about the words themselves. I think wolf posted some great qualities for what a RPG, but I think failed to mentioned how important some of them are. Remember that the most important is probably that your character(s) in some increases in power as you go along, usually by leveling up skills or character levels.
FFVII is THE RPG. Now, I know that you can't change what happens at the end. You fight Sephiroth. It's true, but most RPGs have you fight a final boos at the very end. However, throughout the game, you are required to make choices about what to do, and it makes little changes in how the story unfolds, and which characters stay with Cloud. I don't know what else you might think FFVII doesn't have, but trust me when I say that it does have it. It is the benchmark by which I judge all RPGs I have played after it. Most don't even come close.
But you can't count games like Half-Life as a RPG. Yes, you take on a role, a specific role, and it's very immersive if you let it be, and a well-crafted story is told, but it is NOT a RPG. It just isn't.
This is a delicate thing, but you can't just lump any game that has you play a role as a roleplaying game. That's not how this works. Seriously.
I put FF7 in the rpg list, and it is and always will be my favorite rpg ever. But if I used his definition, it would not categorize ff7 as an rpg. The problem is that now we have actionrpgs, strategyrpgs, adventurerpgs, etc. RPG IS a genre, I never disagreed, but it has to be futherly sub-categorized by their style of play like action,strat, etc.
And I never said ff7 is missing anything, it has everything, I only stated once again that using his definition the fact that you must kill the bad guy would remove ff7 from the rpg list, even though it clearly is one.
Also, I never tried to put every game in rpg category, I was just defending my choices as my fav rpgs, which ARE RPGS, even if the rpg elements arn't as clear as others.
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
You don't get to say that and then act like you know what you are talking about with genres. And when you start mixing genres you get more specific, not less so. Just because people hone the art doesn't mean that you broaden the original genre to become all-encompassing. Please, stop asserting without any logic or evidence to back up what you are saying. At least Rabenwolf had evidence to back up the argument.
But then, Rabenwolf is right, and as such, there is better evidence to prove that side of the debate.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by kwai Best RPG i've played imo was Vampire the Masqurade - Bloodlines, that game was seriously good :)Storyline that went with every race you could play was loveable, its a couple of years old now, but i'd recommend it to anyone
Very, very good game, and a great example of different paths that you can take within the same plot.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
You don't get to say that and then act like you know what you are talking about with genres. And when you start mixing genres you get more specific, not less so. Just because people hone the art doesn't mean that you broaden the original genre to become all-encompassing. Please, stop asserting without any logic or evidence to back up what you are saying. At least Rabenwolf had evidence to back up the argument.
But then, Rabenwolf is right, and as such, there is better evidence to prove that side of the debate.
I wrote that not thinking that I would start a debate. If I knew that, I would have gone specific, but for that point I just made a short statement. Also that statment I made, I didn't say I agreed with it, I just mentioned how everyone puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg. Please don't become to hasty with your statements.
Originally posted by JPR1985 Originally posted by Leodious
Originally posted by JPR1985RPG = Roleplaying game
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
You don't get to say that and then act like you know what you are talking about with genres. And when you start mixing genres you get more specific, not less so. Just because people hone the art doesn't mean that you broaden the original genre to become all-encompassing. Please, stop asserting without any logic or evidence to back up what you are saying. At least Rabenwolf had evidence to back up the argument. But then, Rabenwolf is right, and as such, there is better evidence to prove that side of the debate.
I wrote that not thinking that I would start a debate. If I knew that, I would have gone specific, but for that point I just made a short statement. Also that statment I made, I didn't say I agreed with it, I just mentioned how everyone puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg. Please don't become to hasty with your statements.
My point is that you are the person making it sound like anything can be a RPG. Other people aren't saying that. You said that. It is extremely rare to see anyone say that, because it's preposterous. No one "puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg." You did. You said that any game could be a RPG. But even now, knowing that you irked people with that statment, you can't "go specific." Denotation and real genre meaning are not the same.
Please, this is starting to get silly, and while I am glad you are evidently changing your mind, it is okay to admit that you made a mistake, and no one will hold it against you, but I will hold it against you if you try to act like you didn't assert what it is obvious you asserted.
I am sorry if I seem...rabid, about this, but syntactical debates are wonderful fun for me. I am not out to make you look stupid, nor do I in fact think that you are, but arguing over meaning is great fun, I think.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
You don't get to say that and then act like you know what you are talking about with genres. And when you start mixing genres you get more specific, not less so. Just because people hone the art doesn't mean that you broaden the original genre to become all-encompassing. Please, stop asserting without any logic or evidence to back up what you are saying. At least Rabenwolf had evidence to back up the argument.
But then, Rabenwolf is right, and as such, there is better evidence to prove that side of the debate.
I wrote that not thinking that I would start a debate. If I knew that, I would have gone specific, but for that point I just made a short statement. Also that statment I made, I didn't say I agreed with it, I just mentioned how everyone puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg. Please don't become to hasty with your statements.
My point is that you are the person making it sound like anything can be a RPG. Other people aren't saying that. You said that. It is extremely rare to see anyone say that, because it's preposterous. No one "puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg." You did. You said that any game could be a RPG. But even now, knowing that you irked people with that statment, you can't "go specific." Denotation and real genre meaning are not the same.
Please, this is starting to get silly, and while I am glad you are evidently changing your mind, it is okay to admit that you made a mistake, and no one will hold it against you, but I will hold it against you if you try to act like you didn't assert what it is obvious you asserted.
I am sorry if I seem...rabid, about this, but syntactical debates are wonderful fun for me. I am not out to make you look stupid, nor do I in fact think that you are, but arguing over meaning is great fun, I think.
I am not changing my arguments, my statement that everything with a story is put as an rpg is true, the genre is extremely inflated with low quality, crappy rpg elements that shouldn't even be in that genre. The problem that you guys have is that you didn't read my other posts that were defending MY choices for favorite rpg. The other poster said that d2 was a hack and slash game, when as a sorce or amazon your dnot hacking or slashing at all, and the game remains an rpg. Please reread my posts starting from where I list y favorite games, and you'll understand that you are arguing over nothing.
Cant you guys decide what you like without having to have a major debate on the subject.? I am sure everyone that reads posts here have some favorites that are alike and many that are different. You should leave it at that. As a gamer we all come in different shapes, sizes, ages, and different places. So I expect favorites I liked to not necessarily the favorites others like. Why debate it?
Gaming is fun, it is not meant to be a hassle. I think that happened just only in the past couple of years. Or perhaps it is more noticed since there seems to be many more gamers than when I was young. I think everyone should take a deep breath ands relax and enjoy the games you enjoy. There really should not be a debate.
When SSI released games from 1985-1993 they were not released due to hassling each other. They were released because those of us who made them had fun along the way. Which is the main reason a gamer is a gamer. So have FUN!
Cant you guys decide what you like without having to have a major debate on the subject.? I am sure everyone that reads posts here have some favorites that are alike and many that are different. You should leave it at that. As a gamer we all come in different shapes, sizes, ages, and different places. So I expect favorites I liked to not necessarily the favorites others like. Why debate it?
Gaming is fun, it is not meant to be a hassle. I think that happened just only in the past couple of years. Or perhaps it is more noticed since there seems to be many more gamers than when I was young. I think everyone should take a deep breath ands relax and enjoy the games you enjoy. There really should not be a debate.
When SSI released games from 1985-1993 they were not released due to hassling each other. They were released because those of us who made them had fun along the way. Which is the main reason a gamer is a gamer. So have FUN!
Thats the thing about some people, they pick something and create a huge debate to try to prove a point, yet they think they are right, but the other person think's hes right as well since he wrote it in the first place. I try to limit my postings to giving either advice, or defending my opinions. Some people think of themselves higher than others and just have to point of stuff, even though they may be wrong. It's best to try ot ignore them but sometimes they start flaming and that gets annoying.
Originally posted by JPR1985 Originally posted by xpowderx Cant you guys decide what you like without having to have a major debate on the subject.? I am sure everyone that reads posts here have some favorites that are alike and many that are different. You should leave it at that. As a gamer we all come in different shapes, sizes, ages, and different places. So I expect favorites I liked to not necessarily the favorites others like. Why debate it?Gaming is fun, it is not meant to be a hassle. I think that happened just only in the past couple of years. Or perhaps it is more noticed since there seems to be many more gamers than when I was young. I think everyone should take a deep breath ands relax and enjoy the games you enjoy. There really should not be a debate.When SSI released games from 1985-1993 they were not released due to hassling each other. They were released because those of us who made them had fun along the way. Which is the main reason a gamer is a gamer. So have FUN!
Thats the thing about some people, they pick something and create a huge debate to try to prove a point, yet they think they are right, but the other person think's hes right as well since he wrote it in the first place. I try to limit my postings to giving either advice, or defending my opinions. Some people think of themselves higher than others and just have to point of stuff, even though they may be wrong. It's best to try ot ignore them but sometimes they start flaming and that gets annoying.
I think you may be talking about me, but it was not my intention to flame. I just wanted to put in my opinion about a debate already going on. I do this because I love debate. People seem to shy away from argument, but I don't do it for reasons of trying to upset people. If well agreed on everything, we would stagnate, and then all the games would be boring. If everyone agreed, no social change would ever happen. I love to debate because I feel that no matter what, we all get something out of it afterwards. We are learn about the topic we are discussing, and we come out more informed and involved. I had never even considered the idea that so many games could be seen as RPGs, but looking into it, many people say just that.
Besides, what the hell is the point of having forums if we all are supposed to think the same thing?! Also, I want to reiterate my love for FFVII, in case anyone missed it. FFVI is the RPG of kings. Nothing has even come close. I am not sure anything ever will.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Comments
Final Fantasy 7 (for favorite jrpg)
Final Fantasy Tactics (strategy rpg)
Bulders Gate 1-2 (best crpg)
Fallout 1-2 (because its legendary)
Gothic 1-2 (sandbox rpg)
TES: Morrowind (sandbox rpg)
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines (fps-action rpg)
As of yet, no MMORPG has really amazed me to the extent of being mentioned... maybe UO or EQ. But im still waiting on that one.
RPG = Roleplaying game
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
actually, you cant take a definition of a genre by its literal meaning. My guess is you are just assuming its so rather than knowning for a fact. The RPG is a name given to classify a certain genre of game that meets a number of requirements. Remember genres are used for claffication. There can be mixed genres but no genre itself would be considered another genre, or else the point of classification is moot.
So for game developers, they usually have to meet set expectations if they are aiming for a specific genre and or subgenre.
The rpg is not just a role playing game. Thats just what the letters stand for, but abreviations are not limited or defined by literal meaning, they can be, but usually theres more too it. Nice try though.
WORST RPG : Oblivion... I swear, I want my money back from Todd Howard himself, until then, I don't want to go near anymore Bethesda products. Not even Fallout 3....
Best RPG? Ha - hands on - Lands of Lore 2 : Guardians of Destiny...accidentally clicking during a conversation and hitting the Huline Savage Shaman....Biiiiiggg mistake...
RPG = Roleplaying game
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
actually, you cant take a definition of a genre by its literal meaning. My guess is you are just assuming its so rather than knowning for a fact. The RPG is a name given to classify a certain genre of game that meets a number of requirements. Remember genres are used for claffication. There can be mixed genres but no genre itself would be considered another genre, or else the point of classification is moot.
So for game developers, they usually have to meet set expectations if they are aiming for a specific genre and or subgenre.
The rpg is not just a role playing game. Thats just what the letters stand for, but abreviations are not limited or defined by literal meaning, they can be, but usually theres more too it. Nice try though.
Any game that you undertake a role, follow a story, and the point is to undertake a series of adventures and quests, is an rpg. These are the basics in making an rpg, depth, immsersivness, and story. Look at any rpg these features are in there, it's just that people won't name frogger an rpg even though your roleplaying a frog trying to cross a highway, simply cause it isn't the right genre.
Sadly, my new uberfast PC with the great graphical games like Dark Messiah and Oblivion just doesn't give me the RPG feeling anywhere near BG or Planescape.
I loved Ultima Underworld when it came out. It was way ahead of its time.
Most recent RPG that I've enjoyed a lot out of modern stuff is KOTOR II. I've tried NW2 and Oblivion and few others but its all crap.
WTB Shadowbane 2
RPG = Roleplaying game
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
actually, you cant take a definition of a genre by its literal meaning. My guess is you are just assuming its so rather than knowning for a fact. The RPG is a name given to classify a certain genre of game that meets a number of requirements. Remember genres are used for claffication. There can be mixed genres but no genre itself would be considered another genre, or else the point of classification is moot.
So for game developers, they usually have to meet set expectations if they are aiming for a specific genre and or subgenre.
The rpg is not just a role playing game. Thats just what the letters stand for, but abreviations are not limited or defined by literal meaning, they can be, but usually theres more too it. Nice try though.
Any game that you undertake a role, follow a story, and the point is to undertake a series of adventures and quests, is an rpg. These are the basics in making an rpg, depth, immsersivness, and story. Look at any rpg these features are in there, it's just that people won't name frogger an rpg even though your roleplaying a frog trying to cross a highway, simply cause it isn't the right genre.
But you are WRONG. That is the ignorant response many like to give when they "think" they know what an RPG is. You clearly do not. I dont want to be rude about it, but if you are going to be as dumb as a plank of wood theres no point in this discussion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you are only being temporarily ignorant and therefore explain it to you.
The rpg is a what? Genre. A genre is a what? way to classify and organize by definition. Ok, now lets look at the RPG (from what numerous game developers past and present have defined the rpg as (when it was first created).
It's not about a story. All games can have story. Its not about immersiveness, all games can be immersive. Most games have you play a role. These are not defining of an RPG. Duh. So what is the key requirements of an rpg? Simple:
Warren Spector offers: Key features found in an RPG. Not all are always included, but relying only on one or two would not make an rpg.
*a form of resource management
*Character(s) growth and advancement. (items, personal abilities..ect)
*statistic based. ( stems back to the wonderful days of the 20 sided dice)
*choice (choice of story direction) (an idea of cause and effect)
*possible emotional attachment to the world and or character(s) (you might call this a precursor to immersion)
You have to remember, the rpg was created way back in the 70s when old games showing up in the 80s were not reliant on story at all.
I suggest possibly educating yourself by reading some great articles about this subject as i wish not to write out a damn essay for your enlightenment.
http://www.gamesfirst.com/articles/jluther/rpg_narrative/rpg_narrative.htm
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070411/barton_01.shtml
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19990115/spector_01.htm
in no particular order,
Ogre Battle
Fallout 1 and 2
Final Fantasy 3 and 7
Phantasy Star 4
Baldurs Gate
Septerra Core
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Oh my got!!!
i neber see a graphic of this before,
i neber p2p any game before, but this game i must!
________________________________
RPG = Roleplaying game
Almost any game that has a story and you must undertake a role becomes classified as an RPG. Some just has more depth than others.
actually, you cant take a definition of a genre by its literal meaning. My guess is you are just assuming its so rather than knowning for a fact. The RPG is a name given to classify a certain genre of game that meets a number of requirements. Remember genres are used for claffication. There can be mixed genres but no genre itself would be considered another genre, or else the point of classification is moot.
So for game developers, they usually have to meet set expectations if they are aiming for a specific genre and or subgenre.
The rpg is not just a role playing game. Thats just what the letters stand for, but abreviations are not limited or defined by literal meaning, they can be, but usually theres more too it. Nice try though.
Any game that you undertake a role, follow a story, and the point is to undertake a series of adventures and quests, is an rpg. These are the basics in making an rpg, depth, immsersivness, and story. Look at any rpg these features are in there, it's just that people won't name frogger an rpg even though your roleplaying a frog trying to cross a highway, simply cause it isn't the right genre.
But you are WRONG. That is the ignorant response many like to give when they "think" they know what an RPG is. You clearly do not. I dont want to be rude about it, but if you are going to be as dumb as a plank of wood theres no point in this discussion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you are only being temporarily ignorant and therefore explain it to you.
The rpg is a what? Genre. A genre is a what? way to classify and organize by definition. Ok, now lets look at the RPG (from what numerous game developers past and present have defined the rpg as (when it was first created).
It's not about a story. All games can have story. Its not about immersiveness, all games can be immersive. Most games have you play a role. These are not defining of an RPG. Duh. So what is the key requirements of an rpg? Simple:
Warren Spector offers: Key features found in an RPG. Not all are always included, but relying only on one or two would not make an rpg.
*a form of resource management
*Character(s) growth and advancement. (items, personal abilities..ect)
*statistic based. ( stems back to the wonderful days of the 20 sided dice)
*choice (choice of story direction) (an idea of cause and effect)
*possible emotional attachment to the world and or character(s) (you might call this a precursor to immersion)
You have to remember, the rpg was created way back in the 70s when old games showing up in the 80s were not reliant on story at all.
I suggest possibly educating yourself by reading some great articles about this subject as i wish not to write out a damn essay for your enlightenment.
http://www.gamesfirst.com/articles/jluther/rpg_narrative/rpg_narrative.htm
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070411/barton_01.shtml
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19990115/spector_01.htm
Listen, I don't know why your trying to start an argument over this, but let me explain a few things, simple games like I mentioned (diablo for example) has all your "key features" that are supposed to be in an rpg. You level up, you choose your class, you choose your equipment, you choose which quests to do and not do (sidequests only, obviously quests to progress the story need to be done), immerssivness is PURELY on the player, since some people CAN be fully immersed in a simple dialogue game like diablo, or it might take huge amount of stories like the final fantasy series.
NOW, if I follow your rpg "definition", then even FF7 wouldn't be completely an RPG, due to the fact that the story (again not the side quests or mini games) is a one way track. RPGS started as text based and PnP and choices were vast since you created all these new choices and stories changed on a dime, but video games changed the rpg genre, due to the fact that you can't have 30 different endings, or you can't skip crucial game events. IF every single RPG HAD to be able to change due to our decisions as a gamer, well the RPG world would consist of VERY FEW titles.
Look, I don't know why you got angry and why you questioned my intelligence and poked fun at it, just cause your trying to prove a point, that obviously isn't 100% factual. Just read over this post and think for a minute before you type a response, cause I don't want you starting a flamewar just cause you didn't comprehend what I wrote.
P.S Please don't correct me on spelling and judge my writing skills, if I wanted to prove my writing skills, it would not be on a message board, I am just trying to join a conversation.
This is the only truth that can be considered truth, in this thread.
Some great opinions here, but FFVII is the ultimate RPG, and it takes everything down. Even the Elderscrolls, which is crazy hard to do.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
He's starting an argument because for some people, seeing mistaken definitions is a painful thing. I am one of these people. Without classifications, nothing would have meaning. Sometimes it is hard to put things into categories, but unless we do so, we will be unable to discuss things easily.
Now that that's out of the way, let's get into this. Roleplaying Game has a spcific denotation, it's true: a game in which you play a role. Obviously. But like Rabenwolf said, the denotation is not the only thing to look at when thinking about this. And, again like Rabenwolf has said, RPG is a genre acronym, and usually we don't even worry about the words themselves. I think wolf posted some great qualities for what a RPG, but I think failed to mentioned how important some of them are. Remember that the most important is probably that your character(s) in some increases in power as you go along, usually by leveling up skills or character levels.
FFVII is THE RPG. Now, I know that you can't change what happens at the end. You fight Sephiroth. It's true, but most RPGs have you fight a final boos at the very end. However, throughout the game, you are required to make choices about what to do, and it makes little changes in how the story unfolds, and which characters stay with Cloud. I don't know what else you might think FFVII doesn't have, but trust me when I say that it does have it. It is the benchmark by which I judge all RPGs I have played after it. Most don't even come close.
But you can't count games like Half-Life as a RPG. Yes, you take on a role, a specific role, and it's very immersive if you let it be, and a well-crafted story is told, but it is NOT a RPG. It just isn't.
This is a delicate thing, but you can't just lump any game that has you play a role as a roleplaying game. That's not how this works. Seriously.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
He's starting an argument because for some people, seeing mistaken definitions is a painful thing. I am one of these people. Without classifications, nothing would have meaning. Sometimes it is hard to put things into categories, but unless we do so, we will be unable to discuss things easily.
Now that that's out of the way, let's get into this. Roleplaying Game has a spcific denotation, it's true: a game in which you play a role. Obviously. But like Rabenwolf said, the denotation is not the only thing to look at when thinking about this. And, again like Rabenwolf has said, RPG is a genre acronym, and usually we don't even worry about the words themselves. I think wolf posted some great qualities for what a RPG, but I think failed to mentioned how important some of them are. Remember that the most important is probably that your character(s) in some increases in power as you go along, usually by leveling up skills or character levels.
FFVII is THE RPG. Now, I know that you can't change what happens at the end. You fight Sephiroth. It's true, but most RPGs have you fight a final boos at the very end. However, throughout the game, you are required to make choices about what to do, and it makes little changes in how the story unfolds, and which characters stay with Cloud. I don't know what else you might think FFVII doesn't have, but trust me when I say that it does have it. It is the benchmark by which I judge all RPGs I have played after it. Most don't even come close.
But you can't count games like Half-Life as a RPG. Yes, you take on a role, a specific role, and it's very immersive if you let it be, and a well-crafted story is told, but it is NOT a RPG. It just isn't.
This is a delicate thing, but you can't just lump any game that has you play a role as a roleplaying game. That's not how this works. Seriously.
I put FF7 in the rpg list, and it is and always will be my favorite rpg ever. But if I used his definition, it would not categorize ff7 as an rpg. The problem is that now we have actionrpgs, strategyrpgs, adventurerpgs, etc. RPG IS a genre, I never disagreed, but it has to be futherly sub-categorized by their style of play like action,strat, etc.
And I never said ff7 is missing anything, it has everything, I only stated once again that using his definition the fact that you must kill the bad guy would remove ff7 from the rpg list, even though it clearly is one.
Also, I never tried to put every game in rpg category, I was just defending my choices as my fav rpgs, which ARE RPGS, even if the rpg elements arn't as clear as others.
Storyline that went with every race you could play was loveable, its a couple of years old now, but i'd recommend it to anyone
List of SOE lies
Starflight 1 and 2 sci-fi CRPG
Phantasy star 2 and 3,
the original Might and Magic series upto Mandate of Heaven,
Kings Bounty,
Fallout,
Nethack
Cant decide which order hahah
You don't get to say that and then act like you know what you are talking about with genres. And when you start mixing genres you get more specific, not less so. Just because people hone the art doesn't mean that you broaden the original genre to become all-encompassing. Please, stop asserting without any logic or evidence to back up what you are saying. At least Rabenwolf had evidence to back up the argument.
But then, Rabenwolf is right, and as such, there is better evidence to prove that side of the debate.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Very, very good game, and a great example of different paths that you can take within the same plot.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
You don't get to say that and then act like you know what you are talking about with genres. And when you start mixing genres you get more specific, not less so. Just because people hone the art doesn't mean that you broaden the original genre to become all-encompassing. Please, stop asserting without any logic or evidence to back up what you are saying. At least Rabenwolf had evidence to back up the argument.
But then, Rabenwolf is right, and as such, there is better evidence to prove that side of the debate.
I wrote that not thinking that I would start a debate. If I knew that, I would have gone specific, but for that point I just made a short statement. Also that statment I made, I didn't say I agreed with it, I just mentioned how everyone puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg. Please don't become to hasty with your statements.
You don't get to say that and then act like you know what you are talking about with genres. And when you start mixing genres you get more specific, not less so. Just because people hone the art doesn't mean that you broaden the original genre to become all-encompassing. Please, stop asserting without any logic or evidence to back up what you are saying. At least Rabenwolf had evidence to back up the argument.
But then, Rabenwolf is right, and as such, there is better evidence to prove that side of the debate.
I wrote that not thinking that I would start a debate. If I knew that, I would have gone specific, but for that point I just made a short statement. Also that statment I made, I didn't say I agreed with it, I just mentioned how everyone puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg. Please don't become to hasty with your statements.
My point is that you are the person making it sound like anything can be a RPG. Other people aren't saying that. You said that. It is extremely rare to see anyone say that, because it's preposterous. No one "puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg." You did. You said that any game could be a RPG. But even now, knowing that you irked people with that statment, you can't "go specific." Denotation and real genre meaning are not the same.
Please, this is starting to get silly, and while I am glad you are evidently changing your mind, it is okay to admit that you made a mistake, and no one will hold it against you, but I will hold it against you if you try to act like you didn't assert what it is obvious you asserted.
I am sorry if I seem...rabid, about this, but syntactical debates are wonderful fun for me. I am not out to make you look stupid, nor do I in fact think that you are, but arguing over meaning is great fun, I think.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
You don't get to say that and then act like you know what you are talking about with genres. And when you start mixing genres you get more specific, not less so. Just because people hone the art doesn't mean that you broaden the original genre to become all-encompassing. Please, stop asserting without any logic or evidence to back up what you are saying. At least Rabenwolf had evidence to back up the argument.
But then, Rabenwolf is right, and as such, there is better evidence to prove that side of the debate.
I wrote that not thinking that I would start a debate. If I knew that, I would have gone specific, but for that point I just made a short statement. Also that statment I made, I didn't say I agreed with it, I just mentioned how everyone puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg. Please don't become to hasty with your statements.
My point is that you are the person making it sound like anything can be a RPG. Other people aren't saying that. You said that. It is extremely rare to see anyone say that, because it's preposterous. No one "puts a game with a story and a determined role becomes an rpg." You did. You said that any game could be a RPG. But even now, knowing that you irked people with that statment, you can't "go specific." Denotation and real genre meaning are not the same.
Please, this is starting to get silly, and while I am glad you are evidently changing your mind, it is okay to admit that you made a mistake, and no one will hold it against you, but I will hold it against you if you try to act like you didn't assert what it is obvious you asserted.
I am sorry if I seem...rabid, about this, but syntactical debates are wonderful fun for me. I am not out to make you look stupid, nor do I in fact think that you are, but arguing over meaning is great fun, I think.
I am not changing my arguments, my statement that everything with a story is put as an rpg is true, the genre is extremely inflated with low quality, crappy rpg elements that shouldn't even be in that genre. The problem that you guys have is that you didn't read my other posts that were defending MY choices for favorite rpg. The other poster said that d2 was a hack and slash game, when as a sorce or amazon your dnot hacking or slashing at all, and the game remains an rpg. Please reread my posts starting from where I list y favorite games, and you'll understand that you are arguing over nothing.
Gaming is fun, it is not meant to be a hassle. I think that happened just only in the past couple of years. Or perhaps it is more noticed since there seems to be many more gamers than when I was young. I think everyone should take a deep breath ands relax and enjoy the games you enjoy. There really should not be a debate.
When SSI released games from 1985-1993 they were not released due to hassling each other. They were released because those of us who made them had fun along the way. Which is the main reason a gamer is a gamer. So have FUN!
Thats the thing about some people, they pick something and create a huge debate to try to prove a point, yet they think they are right, but the other person think's hes right as well since he wrote it in the first place. I try to limit my postings to giving either advice, or defending my opinions. Some people think of themselves higher than others and just have to point of stuff, even though they may be wrong. It's best to try ot ignore them but sometimes they start flaming and that gets annoying.
I played a nice bit of Baldur's Gate and NWN back in the day, but never really got into them all that much.
Thats the thing about some people, they pick something and create a huge debate to try to prove a point, yet they think they are right, but the other person think's hes right as well since he wrote it in the first place. I try to limit my postings to giving either advice, or defending my opinions. Some people think of themselves higher than others and just have to point of stuff, even though they may be wrong. It's best to try ot ignore them but sometimes they start flaming and that gets annoying.
I think you may be talking about me, but it was not my intention to flame. I just wanted to put in my opinion about a debate already going on. I do this because I love debate. People seem to shy away from argument, but I don't do it for reasons of trying to upset people. If well agreed on everything, we would stagnate, and then all the games would be boring. If everyone agreed, no social change would ever happen. I love to debate because I feel that no matter what, we all get something out of it afterwards. We are learn about the topic we are discussing, and we come out more informed and involved. I had never even considered the idea that so many games could be seen as RPGs, but looking into it, many people say just that.
Besides, what the hell is the point of having forums if we all are supposed to think the same thing?! Also, I want to reiterate my love for FFVII, in case anyone missed it. FFVI is the RPG of kings. Nothing has even come close. I am not sure anything ever will.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Just kidding....
Or am I?
Actually I really don't know which is the "best", but it probably wouldn't be a Final Fantasy for me. Would a Zelda count? Link to the Past maybe?