I will not be swayed by any review or opinion just because you are a veteran.
This is all you had to post. This one sentence. Now change "veteran" to game critic. Same theme. Which is ok. You are speaking for yourself. If you want to buy each and every mmorpg without reading other people's opinions (pro and con) that is your decision.
Some people have been playing MMOs since UO and will tell me that LOTRO sucks....well I love it!
As long as they tell WHY they think whatever game is not good, point by point, prefereby (sp?) in numerical order, it can help one make a more informed choice what to spend their hard earned money on.
And you may think that by stating you have been playing these games forever will give your statements some credit and get people to agree with you then you are wrong, no matter how many games you play it all comes down to the fact that you are playing those games because they appeal to YOUR personal preference, not anybody elses.
IF someone says "I've played every mmorpg ever". and leaves it at that, then yes, it's a useless statement, game review, game critque. BUT if someone says "I've played every mmorpg ever, and here is why this current game [insert name of game] offers nothing new. Or here is where it got this idea from. Or here is why it's bad, and you should not waste your money.
Maybe I am overreacting...I am very tired atm and it is time for bed.
And here is the REAL reason for your post/rant. You are tired and want to let off steam. Tired from a days work, school, interacting with people, your dog, cleaning, etc.... Ah well, at least you are being very honest. Let off some steam I say! Most at this site are very understanding.
I am sorry If I offended anybody. I feel like an ass because I am actually about to click post message....but it must be done!
Let's clarify a bit. The main reason the majority of game vets let it be known they are vets (from posting, in their sigs, by having screenshots to prove it, etc....) is so the reader will know where they are coming from. A gamer vet giving a review will always have more weight than a newer player because a vet can point you to other games with a certain gameplay you may like. Do a search on my name. There was a recent thread I posted in, in which a newer gamer attempted to post about the "Worse MMORPGs Ever " It turned out he only played SWG. His not being a vet made it impossible for him to compare all the major mmorpgs to each other, all the major game features to each other, all the major game systems to each other.
Vets are also the main part of the populace who hold the game DEVs feet to the fire. "What? You claim your game is new and revolutionary?!? You CLONED that directly from so-and-so game!!". If the majority of game DEVs, and moneymen had their way, they would re-hash the same thing over and over, advertising it as brand new hoping no one would notice, or hold their feet to the fire.
Relax, game vets ARE ON YOUR SIDE. Heheh.
It is your choice to read their reviews, posts, and crtiques, or not. Just like you can choose to watch Siskel and Ebert the movie vets, or not. BTW, Spider-Man 3 is not worth the money.
I think you missed the point to this guys post and maybe he should clarify it but atleast from MY perspective of his post he's really just tired of the self righteous hater veterans who can never objectively give a review on anything, NOT real game reviewers. You know like the SWG vets who call everything SOE touches shit even though thats NOT true its only true in the case of SWG. Or the tin foil hat conspiracy vets who believe MMO's devs are out to get them.
Movie critics have some knowledge to films even if their review is more personal than anything they still know what they're talking about from a professional level, vets on the other hand only know things from a gamer's perspective which only goes so far.
Personally I don't go around bragging about what games I've played or what level all my chars got to (because eventually I forget those things since they're not really that important to me) and I probably wouldn't be caught dead trying to amatuerishly write a review. I take another vet's word cautiously if they've gone through the trouble to show off their epeens and I usually only glance over something written by an obvious noob but then I usually take no review even professional ones as serious since I'd rather play the game and if it sucks then well it sucks.
And lets face it those self righteous hater vets are only on one person's side their own.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I can handle reviews listing their "credentials" when talking about a game - that isn't really a big deal. It just points out that they have some kind of long term perspective of the genre. It does not mean that they have the right to tell people whether or not they are having fun or enjoying the game they choose to play. That is just plain dickish... Among other things. But dickish sums it up pretty well.
What I really can't stand are the obstinate elitist bastards who believe that Everquest I and Ultima Online are the epitome of everything that the MMO genre ever was and should be! Basically, fossilized fanboys of outdated and poorly designed games that are hanging on by a thread purely because of nostalgia. It doesn’t bother me that they still enjoy their games, it bothers me that they inflict themselves on anyone who doesn’t worship their opinions… In many ways these two groups of people are the same – old timers who believe their opinions are worth more then everyone else’s because they played those archaic pieces of shit.
The worst part, though? They seem to believe that people who actually play games for fun (imagine that!) are somehow inferior because they don’t enjoy being punished for pouring countless hours into an unrewarding game because they aren’t “hardcore” enough.
I've played many mmos, in ways im a vet, but I don't expect ppl to play what I say they should or should not play, I'll give my opinions, listen to others opinions (vets or noobs) but in the end, I'd much rather try the game out for myself, I'm not like everyone else, I may find a game fun that not many others liked at all,
I think ppl should try the games out for themselves before they make a decision, I love those trails they give out but some games don't have them sadly
I didn't realize there were so many WoW clones...seeing WoW was the first MMO ever made..oh wait, wasn't there something before WoW, another MMO or 2 or 3 or ....
Nonetheless, being a Vet gives you perspective but it in no way means you're an expert on all things MMO..
Nonesense, I am a Vet and I am an expert on all things MMO
But seriously, I do like to know what sort of games a person has played in the past so I can understand where his opinion on a game is coming from. If I see someone who has heavy experience in UO, AC, SWG slam a game like LotRO... I understand why, they prefer sandbox type games with a stronger emphasis on player freedom and perhaps more open ended PvP.
Or if they've played every fantasy MMORPG ever made and state that LotRO is just more of the same, it makes sense, for them it really is.
Seeing that someone is a Vet doesn't mean I will like or dislike a game any more or less, just means I can try to read the opinions of players who might have experienced games that I have and give me some possible insight as to whether I'll like it or not.
Someone says.... "I really hated DAOC but I just know I'm going to love WAR"..... I'm going to be suspect of their reasoning.....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm a MMO vet and I don't like LOTRO for whatever reason, but I've also said that people all have differnt likes and dislikes. If someone else like the game then thats a good thing because they are having fun. On the flip side I wont listen to those who will try to sway me in it's favor as I'm not going to play a game I'm not getting any enjoyment out of. To sum up peoples reviews, even proffesional reviews, mean very little as we all have differnt likes and dislikes. You have to actually try the games yourself to truly find if you will like them or not.
I know I'm probably asking for a lot of crap here but my anger has just built up and it has to be released.
It is soooo frustrating when all I see is "review from an mmo vet" or "why this game sucks from an mmo vet" or "I'm a vet of so and so game and I think this or that about it." Seriously guys....it dosent matter! No matter how long you have been playing MMOs or a certain MMO for it dosent change the opinion of other people playing it. Each persons opinions differ and it I will not be swayed by any review or opinion just because you are a veteran. Some people have been playing MMOs since UO and will tell me that LOTRO sucks....well I love it! And you may think that by stating you have been playing these games forever will give your statements some credit and get people to agree with you then you are wrong, no matter how many games you play it all comes down to the fact that you are playing those games because they appeal to YOUR personal preference, not anybody elses. And if you are looking for OOs and AHs from people here by bragging about how youve been playing games your whole life then I think you need a new hobby. Seriously im not the type to post things like this and really Ive never posted much negative on these forums. I really use this account just to scope things out and drop my two cents here and there.
Maybe I am overreacting...I am very tired atm and it is time for bed. I am sorry If I offended anybody. I feel like an ass because I am actually about to click post message....but it must be done!
Great post Tegan,
I enjoy reading well written reviews from anyone: good or bad, and newb or vet. And as long as they give pretty valid reasons why they like or dislike a game, then that's great. By "pretty valid reasons" I mean a proper explaination of what they are basing their opinion on, not just "it's boring" or "it's perfect", or their entire game experience crammed into a single sentence. Their past experience of MMOs can also help get their point across. I've read a couple of vet reviews for LOTRO in particular where the reviewer didn't like it, but listed bloody good reasons why they felt that way, and it generally boiled down to the fact that it wasn't the game for them.
But someone swinging the vet sword to try and lend weight to a poorly-written review filled with minsinformation and inaccuracies really annoys me too. Also people who try to insult the player base, or make generalisations about X game's players to try and support their "review", are quite bad as well. Sadly, we seem to be getting more and more of that these days. I guess some people like to bash things just to get their jollies, and maybe even go so far as to create a new MMORPG.com account to do so whilst protecting their forum "main"... heheh... sad really.
An important rule in writing a review is to write what you have personally experienced not what you have heard from others. Putting that aside you want credibility in your writing by providing proofs (if available) and stick with your convictions. Instead of saying "this game sucks" you want to write "this game sucks because...". State your opinion clearly with the correct spelling, punctuation marks and in excruciating detail. Most (self proclaimed) veteran gamers (like me) that hang around here have seen how this tiny industry has grown from it's infancy since the early 1990s where the first commercial graphical MUDS sprouted it's wings which started this whole mmogaming thing that has now grown into a multi million dollar industry and we're proud of being part of history.
To some degree I'm one of those crusty old vets the op refers to, and some of the venom laced posts further Illustrate the lack of perspective some have...
I've said it before but it bears repeating, timesinks aside UO, EQI, AC & DAOC at their core STILL represent the best and brightest this genre has to offer. I've seen nothing and I mean NOTHING released since that isn't inspired by or a cumulative of the above titles.
However unlike some vets I vividly remember the mistakes the fab four made nor am I married to the grind, timesinks, or raid only loot philosophies many an old school title employed. Still the amount of skill and thought required to be considered good in these titles still exceeds anything released since.
While were at it let's put another myth to rest. Demanding challenging encounters, character customization & AI actually from THIS millennium isn't being an elitist vet. In fact it's the BARE minimum of what every player (vet or otherwise) should expect from their favorite MMO. Don't you find it odd that there's been 10 times the advances in graphics yet AI has seen only moderate advances in 9 years?
Seriously if you wanted an "I win button" the average platform single player fragfest provides that on easy mode.
Some forget that with every windfall there's both blessing and curse. Sure those Millions of new fans are great for business but they also bring a platform mindset to MMO's that didn't exist prior. Don't get me wrong, I no longer have 3 hours to sit in front of a CPU either, however I expect at least the same level challenge/skill requirement that existed 7 years ago.
I see posts all the time referring to Devs/publishers lacking creativity. As long as mediocrity nets publishers top money with minimal effort why should they change it. It's good business from their standpoint.
While perhaps a bit unfair some of us are harder on newer titles because we fail to see the growth that should have happened by now.
Some forget that with every windfall there's both blessing and curse. Sure those Millions of new fans are great for business but they also bring a platform mindset to MMO's that didn't exist prior. Don't get me wrong, I no longer have 3 hours to sit in front of a CPU either, however I expect at least the same level challenge/skill requirement that existed 7 years ago.
I see posts all the time referring to Devs/publishers lacking creativity. As long as mediocrity nets publishers top money with minimal effort why should they change it. It's good business from their standpoint.
While perhaps a bit unfair some of us are harder on newer titles because we fail to see the growth that should have happened by now.
Almost all games 7-12 years ago were significantly harder than the current crop of games, but the sales numbers have been inversely related. As games got easier, they sold more. When games (on average) were harder or less intuitive, they sold less.
Interestingly, a lot of recent studies reveal that even a good portion of "casual games" (4-5 hours tops) never get completed by players. The SiN episode(s) and Half-Life Episode 1 completions are actually quite interesting to note.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
I know I'm probably asking for a lot of crap here but my anger has just built up and it has to be released.
It is soooo frustrating when all I see is "review from an mmo vet" or "why this game sucks from an mmo vet" or "I'm a vet of so and so game and I think this or that about it." Seriously guys....it dosent matter! No matter how long you have been playing MMOs or a certain MMO for it dosent change the opinion of other people playing it. Each persons opinions differ and it I will not be swayed by any review or opinion just because you are a veteran. Some people have been playing MMOs since UO and will tell me that LOTRO sucks....well I love it! And you may think that by stating you have been playing these games forever will give your statements some credit and get people to agree with you then you are wrong, no matter how many games you play it all comes down to the fact that you are playing those games because they appeal to YOUR personal preference, not anybody elses. And if you are looking for OOs and AHs from people here by bragging about how youve been playing games your whole life then I think you need a new hobby. Seriously im not the type to post things like this and really Ive never posted much negative on these forums. I really use this account just to scope things out and drop my two cents here and there.
Maybe I am overreacting...I am very tired atm and it is time for bed. I am sorry If I offended anybody. I feel like an ass because I am actually about to click post message....but it must be done!
Until that person has played the game for 5+ months and many go omfg what have i been doign this game suxs... MMO vets often understand the long term appeal of mmos better than noobs... and this is true for anything. CARS , Houses, electronics , etc.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Generally no one cares to begin with... Morons came up with the noob syndrome that exploded after WOW, which is where most of this non-game experience related crap came from.
'DUDE... I'm level 45 because I've played for 4.5 years and your LEVEL ten because like... you've played for a year. Are seriously jealous of my extra 35 xp points? Because they're like birthdays you can't catch up by not sleeping...'
So, you hate earning experience so much that you have to hate people who have played longer than you?
I have learned to simply discount any "blah blah game sucks" posts. I think it's a instinctively developed filter, kinda like how you squint or close your eyes by reflex when there is bright sunlight. If they want to write a good or bad review of a game they need to write the HOW and WHY. Too many kiddies here just write "XXX game sucks" without any specific detail and call it their "review" and that kinda sucks.
You either like it, hate it or simply don't feel anything.
Judging a game's worthiness or lack there of is just as retarded as trying to say a piece of fine art sucks.
The game/art doesn't suck... you are not reacting to it the way you would like to.
I work in an experimental art gallery and we get pieces in that I don't like or don't trigger any thoughts or emotions at times... and then we get pieces that are just amazing. I may like them and the next person may think it's hideous... Everything is relative to ones perception.
Comments
Vets are also the main part of the populace who hold the game DEVs feet to the fire. "What? You claim your game is new and revolutionary?!? You CLONED that directly from so-and-so game!!". If the majority of game DEVs, and moneymen had their way, they would re-hash the same thing over and over, advertising it as brand new hoping no one would notice, or hold their feet to the fire.
Relax, game vets ARE ON YOUR SIDE. Heheh.
It is your choice to read their reviews, posts, and crtiques, or not. Just like you can choose to watch Siskel and Ebert the movie vets, or not. BTW, Spider-Man 3 is not worth the money.
I think you missed the point to this guys post and maybe he should clarify it but atleast from MY perspective of his post he's really just tired of the self righteous hater veterans who can never objectively give a review on anything, NOT real game reviewers. You know like the SWG vets who call everything SOE touches shit even though thats NOT true its only true in the case of SWG. Or the tin foil hat conspiracy vets who believe MMO's devs are out to get them.
Movie critics have some knowledge to films even if their review is more personal than anything they still know what they're talking about from a professional level, vets on the other hand only know things from a gamer's perspective which only goes so far.
Personally I don't go around bragging about what games I've played or what level all my chars got to (because eventually I forget those things since they're not really that important to me) and I probably wouldn't be caught dead trying to amatuerishly write a review. I take another vet's word cautiously if they've gone through the trouble to show off their epeens and I usually only glance over something written by an obvious noob but then I usually take no review even professional ones as serious since I'd rather play the game and if it sucks then well it sucks.
And lets face it those self righteous hater vets are only on one person's side their own.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I can handle reviews listing their "credentials" when talking about a game - that isn't really a big deal. It just points out that they have some kind of long term perspective of the genre. It does not mean that they have the right to tell people whether or not they are having fun or enjoying the game they choose to play. That is just plain dickish... Among other things. But dickish sums it up pretty well.
What I really can't stand are the obstinate elitist bastards who believe that Everquest I and Ultima Online are the epitome of everything that the MMO genre ever was and should be! Basically, fossilized fanboys of outdated and poorly designed games that are hanging on by a thread purely because of nostalgia. It doesn’t bother me that they still enjoy their games, it bothers me that they inflict themselves on anyone who doesn’t worship their opinions… In many ways these two groups of people are the same – old timers who believe their opinions are worth more then everyone else’s because they played those archaic pieces of shit.
The worst part, though? They seem to believe that people who actually play games for fun (imagine that!) are somehow inferior because they don’t enjoy being punished for pouring countless hours into an unrewarding game because they aren’t “hardcore” enough.
THOSE people can piss off!
How do you kill that which has no life?
I think ppl should try the games out for themselves before they make a decision, I love those trails they give out
I didn't realize there were so many WoW clones...seeing WoW was the first MMO ever made..oh wait, wasn't there something before WoW, another MMO or 2 or 3 or ....
But seriously, I do like to know what sort of games a person has played in the past so I can understand where his opinion on a game is coming from. If I see someone who has heavy experience in UO, AC, SWG slam a game like LotRO... I understand why, they prefer sandbox type games with a stronger emphasis on player freedom and perhaps more open ended PvP.
Or if they've played every fantasy MMORPG ever made and state that LotRO is just more of the same, it makes sense, for them it really is.
Seeing that someone is a Vet doesn't mean I will like or dislike a game any more or less, just means I can try to read the opinions of players who might have experienced games that I have and give me some possible insight as to whether I'll like it or not.
Someone says.... "I really hated DAOC but I just know I'm going to love WAR"..... I'm going to be suspect of their reasoning.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Great post Tegan,
I enjoy reading well written reviews from anyone: good or bad, and newb or vet. And as long as they give pretty valid reasons why they like or dislike a game, then that's great. By "pretty valid reasons" I mean a proper explaination of what they are basing their opinion on, not just "it's boring" or "it's perfect", or their entire game experience crammed into a single sentence. Their past experience of MMOs can also help get their point across. I've read a couple of vet reviews for LOTRO in particular where the reviewer didn't like it, but listed bloody good reasons why they felt that way, and it generally boiled down to the fact that it wasn't the game for them.
But someone swinging the vet sword to try and lend weight to a poorly-written review filled with minsinformation and inaccuracies really annoys me too. Also people who try to insult the player base, or make generalisations about X game's players to try and support their "review", are quite bad as well. Sadly, we seem to be getting more and more of that these days. I guess some people like to bash things just to get their jollies, and maybe even go so far as to create a new MMORPG.com account to do so whilst protecting their forum "main"... heheh... sad really.
An important rule in writing a review is to write what you have personally experienced not what you have heard from others. Putting that aside you want credibility in your writing by providing proofs (if available) and stick with your convictions. Instead of saying "this game sucks" you want to write "this game sucks because...". State your opinion clearly with the correct spelling, punctuation marks and in excruciating detail. Most (self proclaimed) veteran gamers (like me) that hang around here have seen how this tiny industry has grown from it's infancy since the early 1990s where the first commercial graphical MUDS sprouted it's wings which started this whole mmogaming thing that has now grown into a multi million dollar industry and we're proud of being part of history.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Interestingly, a lot of recent studies reveal that even a good portion of "casual games" (4-5 hours tops) never get completed by players. The SiN episode(s) and Half-Life Episode 1 completions are actually quite interesting to note.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
People like easy to play, simple games. Why do you think that games like Pac-man and Tetris are still selling even now.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
'DUDE... I'm level 45 because I've played for 4.5 years and your LEVEL ten because like... you've played for a year. Are seriously jealous of my extra 35 xp points? Because they're like birthdays you can't catch up by not sleeping...'
So, you hate earning experience so much that you have to hate people who have played longer than you?
Wanker.
You either like it, hate it or simply don't feel anything.
Judging a game's worthiness or lack there of is just as retarded as trying to say a piece of fine art sucks.
The game/art doesn't suck... you are not reacting to it the way you would like to.
I work in an experimental art gallery and we get pieces in that I don't like or don't trigger any thoughts or emotions at times... and then we get pieces that are just amazing. I may like them and the next person may think it's hideous... Everything is relative to ones perception.