I think the issue came about because of the market rush. Its 2004 and WoW is released, the popularity of it being so under-predicted that the games were impossible to buy for weeks. Every other game company suddenly see's this massive market they are missing out and and decides they need to get into it with the need to get in there quickly, rather than get in there well. like the ".com collapse" everyone saw it as the next big thing and jumped on the bandwagon as fast as they could for fear of being left behind and it collapsed.
The problem is from 2004 - 2006 companies were trying to rival WoW but fighting on WoW terms. When you want to defeat someone, you need to try and get the fight going on your terms, using your strengths. Blizzard have massive strength in terms of accessability, a fanbase that they have been building for over a decade, even the storyline for the game has been going on for over a decade. Then smart companies emerged, companies that realised WoW was too strong to fight head on, so they began making different games, PvP orientated games, skill based games instead of fighting what WoW has, they are using what WoW doesn't have. They are going to take WoW's hardcore PvP fanbase, their casual fanbase and build that way.
All that said, im still glad WoW was released because it was the massive kick up the arse this industry needed. Many people now don't remember this industry before WoW either because WoW brought them here, or because WoW is their new focal point for dislike. Before WoW this market saw a new Korean FTP game released every month with the same art style, interface and skill style as Lineage2 every damn game was trying to copy Lineage2 and failing. When WoW came it finally dawned on western publishers that the money doesn't lie in poorly translating and porting Asian games across and relying on an item shop, but in developing unique games for Westerners.
I do agree that many MMOG feels too much same. Just because the visual and story is different, doesn't make the game it self be different.
I think EQ2 was nice game, but it was just too simple and linear for my taste. DDO was also nice, but development team forgot the roots what the game was all about and ceated soemthing general MMOG. Also I don't think Innovation is the major requirement, but rater make well what You gonna do. That doesn't mean the game has to be something for everyone, what usually makes the game dull and doesn't fit anyones taste. Many MMOG's are also relesed way to early, before they are ready.
Haven't played LoTR, because I did heard the character development is very limited and linear. The same reason why I don't play EQ2.
Maybe it's because so many MMOGS are build the idea grid for levels.
I'm also waiting game worth of playing. Game what is well done and has design for certain players, without so many compromize and what isn't too simple and linear.
No matter what quality and polish-level these recent games come, it's using the familiar model of MMO that some of us are already sick of. AoC and WAR will not be bringing anything new to the table, IMO. Tabula Rasa and Pirates of the Burning Sea on the other hand will most likely offer something different. The future is not bleak, but we are definitely down in the dumps within the MMO timeline.
/Agree
I'm so tired of the word polish being thrown around , every game that's released at bare minimum should be polished. Have our standards been so dumbed down we're willing to award 9 & 10's to titles that actualy run?!?
Yea..yea we know...Blizzard, Turbine and company know have mastered the release polished titles. Ok now show us some sort of innovation in gameplay, character building, AI..anything!!
IMO, Innovation is over-rated. Give me a game that I find fun. I don't care if it is a complete remake of an older game. Innovation doesn't equal fun in my eyes. Innovation is the new catch phrase of the MMO "vet" who is bored of whats out there because he has played it all. As you can see in my sig, I have played pretty much every western P2P MMO ever made. Do I get bored of some? Sure. I think a lot of them are not very fun. I don't think it's do to a lack of innovation though. Some of the games people do equate with innovation I found the worst of all the MMOs such as EvE and SWG when if first came out.
Pretty much I think people are using innovation as the new catch phrase, now that sandbox has lost some of it's appeal. (especially with Vanguard being a sandbox game and totally bombing).
It goes without saying that every GAME developer will try to put out something fun. Whether or not they accomplish it.
And yes, Innovation doesn't equal fun... but launching a new title that offers something fresh and innovative gives you the prospect of finding something fun. Something that doesn't match up to all the things you've done before.
Part of the excitement of games for many people is (1) trying something new and (2) finding that it is well-done (high quality) and FUN.
And possibly (3), telling all your friends about it.
IMO, Innovation is over-rated. Give me a game that I find fun. I don't care if it is a complete remake of an older game. Innovation doesn't equal fun in my eyes. Innovation is the new catch phrase of the MMO "vet" who is bored of whats out there because he has played it all. As you can see in my sig, I have played pretty much every western P2P MMO ever made. Do I get bored of some? Sure. I think a lot of them are not very fun. I don't think it's do to a lack of innovation though. Some of the games people do equate with innovation I found the worst of all the MMOs such as EvE and SWG when if first came out.
Pretty much I think people are using innovation as the new catch phrase, now that sandbox has lost some of it's appeal. (especially with Vanguard being a sandbox game and totally bombing).
It goes without saying that every GAME developer will try to put out something fun. Whether or not they accomplish it.
And yes, Innovation doesn't equal fun... but launching a new title that offers something fresh and innovative gives you the prospect of finding something fun. Something that doesn't match up to all the things you've done before.
Part of the excitement of games for many people is (1) trying something new and (2) finding that it is well-done (high quality) and FUN.
And possibly (3), telling all your friends about it.
Yes but innovation is all in the eyes of the player. I find LOTRO to be innovative, yet a lot of posters here call it a clone. So that is why planning you game to be innovative is so overated. I would rather work on a high quality game and stick with what works, then try to go out huge limb and hope that people like it. Especially in the NA market where the players are so fickle.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I agree with an earlier poster that we might have to wait for some of the WoW clones to flop, and for WoW to finally wind down before devs get money to try something new.
What I'd like to see is a flood of niche games for different segments of the market. Games geared towards just solo players, or just group players, or just FFA PvP players, or players that like skill systems instead of levels, or players that want more twitch, players that only like quests, players that like to grind, players that are mostly interested in Roleplay, players that just want to have the coolest gear, players that like to Raid, players that DON"t like to raid, players that just want to craft, etc., etc.
I think you can go for some more extreme gameplay options if you really target just one segment of the MMORPG community, and dont try to make a game that everyone wants to play, with a little something for everybody, but nothing really good for anybody.
Current MMORPGs seem like if you were designing a car, and you said "Ok, we want to make a car that's good for street racing, off road, looks really cool to both Moms and single men in the 18-25 range, and carrying a lot of kids and groceries." You'd end up with a piece of junk.
Ive noticed in the last year that there has been a flood in the mmo market of less then quality games. Of course in this post these are only my opinions and thoughts and I totally expect to have rebutals posted here.
Now I have been playing mmo's since Ultima Online was released, I enjoyed this game very much. I have also played DDO, FFXI, L2, WoW, EvE, Vanguard, LoTR Beta, MxO, RF Online, and Guild Wars so I consider myself an MMO "vet" even though the term vet has come under some fire recently. Now I admit not all of the games that I listed above are very quality games, but I tried them out to see how it would go. But recently Ive noticed that there has been a big surge of less then good quality games. In my mind I justify this by saying maybe the developers need more money to finish the game so they release it early relying on hype to skyrocket sales. After said skyrocket their mindframe probably being "promise the consumer that in coming weeks or months that the patches will flesh the game out nicely and please be patient." One great example of this being Vanguard SOH, this game had alot of great potential when it was released and I had high hopes. After awhile I just gave up because it was like all other games, which brings me to my next point.
Innovation
I believe that games have become stagnant in recent times because we or I, I should say, crave something amazingly innovative that will just amaze us and say "Thank god, its about time the devs finally got IT!" Innovation is the key IMO to any great game. Now I believe that EvE was the pinnacle of innovation in the MMO genre. This game broke alot of rules by just having one server, no avatars that walk around from town to town completing a series of quests for a sword that will be obsolete in 2 hours. Also the skill levelling is amazing. WHat other game can you set a skill to train and go on vacation for a week just to come back and find that you only have an hour left for that skill to complete training. Player owned space is another great innovation, where else can you hold a piece of the vast universe or worl for yourself and your mates. Another great innovation in the MMO genre was brought about by blizzard when they decided to implement reputation and the rewards that come with it, and also the different battle grounds.
Now Im hoping what we are waiting for is just around the corner with upcoming hopefulls like Warhammer Online, Richard Garriots Tabula Rasa and the Age of Conan. My eye is on Tabula Rasa but I will be playing the others as well.
Please post your thoughts, concerns and gripes
How are you a mmo vet and didnt mention playing everquest or DAoC. Two big mmos or Asherons call for that matter. Those were the top MMOs before WoW won all the people who don't want challenging gameplay in there MMOs. WoW is like the Pokemon Trading card game while Everquest or Ultima online even are compared to Magic the gathering the trading card game. The new gamers of today want easy games where they can accomplish somthing big with little or no effort. Cheating without cheating i would call it. but to the point the market isnt being flooded with MMOs. there just releasing MMO's like any other stagnet Single player games. People today just want to play with numerous people so you get the games that support numerous people. game developers want a piece of that pie so they make the game. when people only could play pong everyone got pong when people wanted mario they got mario when people wanted sonic they got sonic. all these games have spinoffs with spinoffs to those games so just realize the market isnt becoming stagnet they just want you money like the next guy.
I think this thread has a misleading name, it should be "which next MMO do you think will change the genre".
But anyway first i'd like to say that tabula rasa does look very good from the little i've seen. and WAR also looks very good, and pherhaps will be better than WoW but realistically even if it is it will never do anything radical for the genre. Whereas if you watch footage of the gameplay in AoC and read the slightly lengthy FAQ i'm sure you'd agree this is where its at. I never knew conan was more than a kiddy tv cartoon till recently so my bias has nothing to do with the fact thats its conan. But they are doing so many unique things with this game that i have wanted for a long time. they'res nothing bad or missing in this game, its gona do everthing previous mmo's does only a heck of a lot more. I really am so hyped about this game, once I read/saw all the info on it. I don't think tabula rasa will stand a chance much vs AoC simply because of firing guns out of FPS mode which AoC has for range. also AoC will be the best graphiced MMO until others come out.
I reckon hardcore gamesworkshop fans will be on WAR, sci-fi fans will be on tabula rasa, people addicted to WoW still on WoW and virtually everybody else on AoC in the future. If AoC has the addiction factor WoW has i'm sure it can beat thier 8Mil player base, also since 360 players will be on it also. We need to wait for the AoC comunity to develope first, it hopefully should be more mature. i'm gona go and contain my excitement.
this video is abit long and not the best made. But still its like 20 minutes going through gameplay in AoC which shows some really awesoem features which you cannot understand well when somebody types them. Shame it doesn't cover any of the large amount fo magic in the game.
Blizzard will release the next "*innovative"game that will be successfull. Really look at their history. It may take a while they are notorious for taking years to produce a game, I mean I'm sure i have my WC2 disc that has a quick teaser for WoW. (innovative games by blizzard have mostly been taking a format from another game and actually making it work)
Man, every single one of blizzards games are a sucess. They take long to produce well designed and structured games, unlike alot of the crap games that are listed on this site. So please get of your high horse
I was actually stating that they would have the next innovative game. Take some time to read the post carefully and keep your trigger happy fingers and insults to yourself please.
Comments
The problem is from 2004 - 2006 companies were trying to rival WoW but fighting on WoW terms. When you want to defeat someone, you need to try and get the fight going on your terms, using your strengths. Blizzard have massive strength in terms of accessability, a fanbase that they have been building for over a decade, even the storyline for the game has been going on for over a decade. Then smart companies emerged, companies that realised WoW was too strong to fight head on, so they began making different games, PvP orientated games, skill based games instead of fighting what WoW has, they are using what WoW doesn't have. They are going to take WoW's hardcore PvP fanbase, their casual fanbase and build that way.
All that said, im still glad WoW was released because it was the massive kick up the arse this industry needed. Many people now don't remember this industry before WoW either because WoW brought them here, or because WoW is their new focal point for dislike. Before WoW this market saw a new Korean FTP game released every month with the same art style, interface and skill style as Lineage2 every damn game was trying to copy Lineage2 and failing. When WoW came it finally dawned on western publishers that the money doesn't lie in poorly translating and porting Asian games across and relying on an item shop, but in developing unique games for Westerners.
I do agree that many MMOG feels too much same. Just because the visual and story is different, doesn't make the game it self be different.
I think EQ2 was nice game, but it was just too simple and linear for my taste. DDO was also nice, but development team forgot the roots what the game was all about and ceated soemthing general MMOG. Also I don't think Innovation is the major requirement, but rater make well what You gonna do. That doesn't mean the game has to be something for everyone, what usually makes the game dull and doesn't fit anyones taste. Many MMOG's are also relesed way to early, before they are ready.
Haven't played LoTR, because I did heard the character development is very limited and linear. The same reason why I don't play EQ2.
Maybe it's because so many MMOGS are build the idea grid for levels.
I'm also waiting game worth of playing. Game what is well done and has design for certain players, without so many compromize and what isn't too simple and linear.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
/Agree
I'm so tired of the word polish being thrown around , every game that's released at bare minimum should be polished. Have our standards been so dumbed down we're willing to award 9 & 10's to titles that actualy run?!?
Yea..yea we know...Blizzard, Turbine and company know have mastered the release polished titles. Ok now show us some sort of innovation in gameplay, character building, AI..anything!!
Somebody...Anybody.....please!!
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
It goes without saying that every GAME developer will try to put out something fun. Whether or not they accomplish it.
And yes, Innovation doesn't equal fun... but launching a new title that offers something fresh and innovative gives you the prospect of finding something fun. Something that doesn't match up to all the things you've done before.
Part of the excitement of games for many people is (1) trying something new and (2) finding that it is well-done (high quality) and FUN.
And possibly (3), telling all your friends about it.
It goes without saying that every GAME developer will try to put out something fun. Whether or not they accomplish it.
And yes, Innovation doesn't equal fun... but launching a new title that offers something fresh and innovative gives you the prospect of finding something fun. Something that doesn't match up to all the things you've done before.
Part of the excitement of games for many people is (1) trying something new and (2) finding that it is well-done (high quality) and FUN.
And possibly (3), telling all your friends about it.
Yes but innovation is all in the eyes of the player. I find LOTRO to be innovative, yet a lot of posters here call it a clone. So that is why planning you game to be innovative is so overated. I would rather work on a high quality game and stick with what works, then try to go out huge limb and hope that people like it. Especially in the NA market where the players are so fickle.Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
What I'd like to see is a flood of niche games for different segments of the market. Games geared towards just solo players, or just group players, or just FFA PvP players, or players that like skill systems instead of levels, or players that want more twitch, players that only like quests, players that like to grind, players that are mostly interested in Roleplay, players that just want to have the coolest gear, players that like to Raid, players that DON"t like to raid, players that just want to craft, etc., etc.
I think you can go for some more extreme gameplay options if you really target just one segment of the MMORPG community, and dont try to make a game that everyone wants to play, with a little something for everybody, but nothing really good for anybody.
Current MMORPGs seem like if you were designing a car, and you said "Ok, we want to make a car that's good for street racing, off road, looks really cool to both Moms and single men in the 18-25 range, and carrying a lot of kids and groceries." You'd end up with a piece of junk.
Absinthe Lovers
I think this thread has a misleading name, it should be "which next MMO do you think will change the genre".
But anyway first i'd like to say that tabula rasa does look very good from the little i've seen. and WAR also looks very good, and pherhaps will be better than WoW but realistically even if it is it will never do anything radical for the genre. Whereas if you watch footage of the gameplay in AoC and read the slightly lengthy FAQ i'm sure you'd agree this is where its at
. I never knew conan was more than a kiddy tv cartoon till recently so my bias has nothing to do with the fact thats its conan. But they are doing so many unique things with this game that i have wanted for a long time. they'res nothing bad or missing in this game, its gona do everthing previous mmo's does only a heck of a lot more. I really am so hyped about this game, once I read/saw all the info on it. I don't think tabula rasa will stand a chance much vs AoC simply because of firing guns out of FPS mode which AoC has for range. also AoC will be the best graphiced MMO until others come out.
I reckon hardcore gamesworkshop fans will be on WAR, sci-fi fans will be on tabula rasa, people addicted to WoW still on WoW and virtually everybody else on AoC in the future. If AoC has the addiction factor WoW has i'm sure it can beat thier 8Mil player base, also since 360 players will be on it also. We need to wait for the AoC comunity to develope first, it hopefully should be more mature. i'm gona go and contain my excitement
.
WATCH THIS: http://uk.media.pc.ign.com/media/743/743392/vid_1513724.html
this video is abit long and not the best made. But still its like 20 minutes going through gameplay in AoC which shows some really awesoem features which you cannot understand well when somebody types them. Shame it doesn't cover any of the large amount fo magic in the game.
My blog:
I was actually stating that they would have the next innovative game. Take some time to read the post carefully and keep your trigger happy fingers and insults to yourself please.