Won't matter anyway, by the time SoE does their thing, AoC and War will be out, at which time Vanguard will be a footnote in MMORPG's past anyway.
Kind of have to agree on that one. I liked where the patching in Vanguard was headed, they have been making some good changes, but it does feel like a beta still. SOE seem entirely likely to make crafting progression in particular faster, so that may lose them most of the remaining "hard core" players, but unless they make the game somehow instantly less buggy and more accessible to a younger audience (think "NGE" or "psuedo-WoW" - bye bye remaining hard-core players) then they will be caught between their own improved EQ2 and the wardrums of new and enticing games on the horizon such as AoC and WAR, remembering of course that LoTRO is also out there on the shelf with WoW BC to woo people new to the genre.
I really do hope SOE can pull it off and make Vanguard into the game it deserved to be. But based on past experience I doubt it; I expect that I will never see a GM onscreen again either, they probably fired them all. Much more likely that they will effectively finish the beta process, consolidate servers, then leave it gasping on the shelf until the day they want to use the IP for a new game. Or, that Sony (the real Sony) will eventually decide that SOE is tarnishing its corporate brand too much and press the cancel button on SOE and just keep on working in with people who are better at making popular software products that make their platforms shine.
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
I hate to burst your bubble but SOE will only put in limited resources after this initial fix period to get the game to a real production standard. Due to the low number of Subscribers they will not allocate a lot of people to work on VG. The people they keep from Sigil will go to work on more successful products.
While anything will be better than Sigil, VG has no future other than a 3rd rate MMO with a couple of servers. VG will make The Matrix Online look like a success.
How can they justify spending money on VG when the return will be so low? VG has no future and no hope. Just be glad they don't just turn off the servers.
So what? Even limited resources is going to be more than Sigil was capable of putting into it. This SOE hating and bashing is, in my opinion, idiotic. The same people bashing SOE for SWG are the same people begging for a 'classic' SWG server. If SOE relented and made a classic preCU server, does that mean that all of a sudden all the hate and bashing go away? Does it mean that SOE is any less evil. Seems to me these haters are like little kids throwing a temper tantrum for not getting their way. We look upon these games as entertainment but for SOE, Blizzard etc. it's a business. Everything they do is motivated by money. Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool. Why shouldn't it be that way? Nobody goes into business to lose money.
I am not bashing SOE. I think they have made quite a nice game with EQ2. I am just saying that VG is dead. VG has no potential. All is lost, etc.
As you said this is a business, therefore SOE will make the business decision to put 1 or 2 Devs on it. VG is a waste of development resources. It has nothing to do with being a hater. Do you realize that the company that built the game just went under?
The only reason they did not shut down the servers is because SOE saved it. Otherwise it would be another Dark and Light.
From your phony address and low post count, I must say you look like a SOE staffer doing some viral marketing.
So iam wrong about them turning EQ2 into a great game?
Mmm, no denial of the viral marketing thing. Looks like an admission to me.
And really, SOE ^*$#ed up Vanguard so badly just by forcing a release when the game was so clearly not ready.
I got into the open beta. I was appalled by the poor performance, numerous bugs, and certain poorly designed gameplay aspects. In and of themselves seeing these things in beta shouldn't be bad - unless they were planning to release in a manner of weeks. And sure enough they released an unfinished product.
Vanguard had the potential to wipe the floor with every other MMO currently on the market. There were some really clever design elements. But they released early AND CHARGED PLAYERS MONEY for a game that still needed a significant amount of work to be enjoyable.
Someone takes my money and don't deliver the goods... they don't get my money again.
Not only did SOE's forcing Vanguard's premature release harm this game, but it has cemented in my mind how poorly they manage MMOs.
Not only did SOE's forcing Vanguard's premature release harm this game, but it has cemented in my mind how poorly they manage MMOs.
VG needs 2-3 years of further development. Would you have SOE wait that long? It has been almost 4 months and VG is still in pitiful shape.
They knew that they could release and get a big influx of cash that they needed. They even have a few misguided souls still playing it and paying to develop a game that has no future. It was (and is) a huge scam that even the Mafia would be proud of.
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
From your phony address and low post count, I must say you look like a SOE staffer doing some viral marketing.
So iam wrong about them turning EQ2 into a great game?
Yep, they did turn EQ2 into a great game. So why would they turn Vanguard into a great game to compete with their flagship game??
It isn't to compete. It is to add variety. One with zones and one without. GOD I HATE ZONES.
PLEASE WAIT WHILE WE LOAD THE AREA THAT IS 5 MILES AWAY. EVENTHOUGH YOU JUST RANG THE DOCK BELL "DING DING" IMAGINE YOU ARE ON A SHIP TRAVELING FAR AWAY.
Or also I love the running down a path to have to stop and wait because developers like to treat areas like they are FPS levels. I am surprised I don't see a wall and switch appear so I can load the next area. ZONES SUCK AND SEEMLESS LANDS RULE
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
From your phony address and low post count, I must say you look like a SOE staffer doing some viral marketing.
So iam wrong about them turning EQ2 into a great game?
You mean the one they released 6-12 months before it was ready then spent that time collecting subsribers money to bring it up to speed?
All this after declaring for over a year how eq2 wouldnt be released untill it was ready.
I agree with the OP SOE will most likely improve Vanguard.
Yeah! Any day now SOE will make Vanguard more Star Warsy and Iconic! Hopefully there will be less reading, too.
DUHHHH, Maybe they will put girls with large breasts and Duhhh had dwarves that walk around saying stuff like Duhhh, Oppps I'm having a Wardrobe malfunction...BOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah theres me hammer!!!
Maybe on top of that they will have ahhhhhh, female elves that dance at a table , Yey and we can all pretend we are at a titty bar and stuff chuckle chuckle chuckle"
Wwwweeeeeee, yyyyyeeeeyyyyy .wooohooo everything is fun and dandy. I feel like my ADD is going away.... weeeeeee...
I hate trying to understand complex thoughts, I forget after the first sentence and words bore me if they become serious or dramatic.... Unless they are about MEEEE and how GREAT I AM WEEEEEE. Thank god for games like WoW now everything is sooo funny and I feel so high like a kite. Oh my, I am starting to feel dizzy and stuff.... Weee Wow is so fun. Everything is all about happy and friends and funny looking characters that are so innocent and joyfully glee....
YEY WOW, YEY NO READING, YEY FUN EQUALS NO THINKING.....CAN I GO POOP NOW?
Not only did SOE's forcing Vanguard's premature release harm this game, but it has cemented in my mind how poorly they manage MMOs.
VG needs 2-3 years of further development. Would you have SOE wait that long? It has been almost 4 months and VG is still in pitiful shape.
They knew that they could release and get a big influx of cash that they needed. They even have a few misguided souls still playing it and paying to develop a game that has no future. It was (and is) a huge scam that even the Mafia would be proud of.
This guy has hit the nail on the head pretty hard.
If VG is to be more than just another mmo AND have performance issues fixed. It will need a fair decent amount of development time WHILE the game is LIVE (I doubt they will take it down, they will want to milk it for all it's worth). By the time the game hits a stage of unique or even playable for some, future mmos will be released and the game will be out-dated.
VG will trot along holding whatever subscribers it can much like MxO, being milked.
That is what I think anyway. I would like to hope that the game is going to become something, since I do have the box 3 feet away from me acting like a big paperweight. I just don't see it happening.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
Let me point out some simple truths for you and maybe you can relate to why some people aren't buying the hype.
You clearly state Sigil wasn't doing squat for the game. I would argue that they were making some improvements since launch, but generally you are right that not enough was happening and it was to slow.
Sigil had roughly 100 people working on Vanguard.
SOE effectively cut the staff by over half, by only rehiring 50 or so people from Sigil. (not blaming SOE for the cut mind you)
Some of those people are moving to new projects.
EQ2 is SOEs flagship with a much larger dev team, support and larger playerbase. It took how many years and overhauls until people finally say it is a good game?
Combine all that and people are saying SOE will fix vangaurd into something great with less than half of what it has now, new management to report to, new ownership making decisions, restructuring all over and most likely new design directions.
This isn't SOE hate, nor is it the blind faith in SOE is somehow a miracle worker with MMOs.
Simply put, the math of the aquistion DOES NOT ADD UP to things getting better, let alone at a faster pace. You simply cannot do more with less.
vanguard didn't even sell as many boxes as EQ2 once had subscibers. No way it is going to get as much support as EQ2 did. It just doesn't mathematically make for realistic predictions.
I agree with the OP SOE will most likely improve Vanguard.
Yeah! Any day now SOE will make Vanguard more Star Warsy and Iconic! Hopefully there will be less reading, too.
DUHHHH, Maybe they will put girls with large breasts and Duhhh had dwarves that walk around saying stuff like Duhhh, Oppps I'm having a Wardrobe malfunction...BOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah theres me hammer!!!
Maybe on top of that they will have ahhhhhh, female elves that dance at a table , Yey and we can all pretend we are at a titty bar and stuff chuckle chuckle chuckle"
Wwwweeeeeee, yyyyyeeeeyyyyy .wooohooo everything is fun and dandy. I feel like my ADD is going away.... weeeeeee...
I hate trying to understand complex thoughts, I forget after the first sentence and words bore me if they become serious or dramatic.... Unless they are about MEEEE and how GREAT I AM WEEEEEE. Thank god for games like WoW now everything is sooo funny and I feel so high like a kite. Oh my, I am starting to feel dizzy and stuff.... Weee Wow is so fun. Everything is all about happy and friends and funny looking characters that are so innocent and joyfully glee....
YEY WOW, YEY NO READING, YEY FUN EQUALS NO THINKING.....CAN I GO POOP NOW?
By all means. Be sure to change the diaper as soon as possible to avoid getting a rash
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
Let me point out some simple truths for you and maybe you can relate to why some people aren't buying the hype.
You clearly state Sigil wasn't doing squat for the game. I would argue that they were making some improvements since launch, but generally you are right that not enough was happening and it was to slow.
Sigil had roughly 100 people working on Vanguard.
SOE effectively cut the staff by over half, by only rehiring 50 or so people from Sigil. (not blaming SOE for the cut mind you)
Some of those people are moving to new projects.
EQ2 is SOEs flagship with a much larger dev team, support and larger playerbase. It took how many years and overhauls until people finally say it is a good game?
Combine all that and people are saying SOE will fix vangaurd into something great with less than half of what it has now, new management to report to, new ownership making decisions, restructuring all over and most likely new design directions.
This isn't SOE hate, nor is it the blind faith in SOE is somehow a miracle worker with MMOs.
Simply put, the math of the aquistion DOES NOT ADD UP to things getting better, let alone at a faster pace. You simply cannot do more with less.
vanguard didn't even sell as many boxes as EQ2 once had subscibers. No way it is going to get as much support as EQ2 did. It just doesn't mathematically make for realistic predictions.
According to what I've read and heard most of those whom were cut from Sigil were art staff. Art staff doesn't put out patches, focus on class re-balancing or debug code. In the software world having more people working on a project does not always mean you'll have a better end product. In fact more often then not having a small development group is usually better because it's easier to coordinate and ensure quality control when it comes to coding software.
As for the devs that are going to be pulled to work on other projects. Well from what I've heard it only amounts to about 5 people I believe. As someone else stated though by the time SOE manages to turn things around other MMO's will be out. The best thing they can do is do a relaunch of Vangaurd with a new ad campaign. Then they can hope to garner enough new players and maintain enough old players to turn a profit on this game. Granted it's easier said then done. Yet if anyone can turn a game around and make money off it well it is SOE. In the end a game worth playing is a game worth paying for and VG has to be fixed so that it's worth both playing and paying. I believe SOE fully realizes the situation they are in and they have a better plan to fix it then Brad ever had IMHO.
I also don't believe SOE considers the idea of throwing all their eggs into one basket ( EQ2 ) to be a wise business choice. Hence the reason why they own so many profitable yet lackluster MMO's. Improving VG so that it can sustain itself and generate further revenue seems to line up with their current "Modus Operandi".
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
What you fail to realize my self-deluded friend, or maybe you do but your "excitement" is getting the best of you, is that SOE has left most of the same people from Sigil IN CHARGE of this games management/developement.
Did you read the interview from the ex-sigil employee? The SAME people that made such a steaming pile of crap out of Vanguard are STILL IN CHARGE! Get it? SOE oversite or not you can't expect the same dumbshits to improve this game. Perhaps if ALL of the Sigil management had been fired then this game MIGHT see a chance to realize it's potential.
Yes SOE did improve EQ2....however let's not forget that SOE is also the same one that made EQ2 and fucked up it's release.
All-in-all SOE is'nt going to help anything. This game is over..finite...finished and should be given the good buriel it deserves. Then held up to inspection so that future MMORPG developers go..."Hmmm. Hope we did good so we don't have a "Vanguard" on our hands."
Never be afraid of choices. More choices are always good things.
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
Lol you joking right ? I'd like to put you in a room with 100 SWG Vets and see how long your argument lasts !!
So what? Even limited resources is going to be more than Sigil was capable of putting into it. This SOE hating and bashing is, in my opinion, idiotic. The same people bashing SOE for SWG are the same people begging for a 'classic' SWG server. If SOE relented and made a classic preCU server, does that mean that all of a sudden all the hate and bashing go away? Does it mean that SOE is any less evil. Seems to me these haters are like little kids throwing a temper tantrum for not getting their way. We look upon these games as entertainment but for SOE, Blizzard etc. it's a business. Everything they do is motivated by money. Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool. Why shouldn't it be that way? Nobody goes into business to lose money.
I am not bashing SOE. I think they have made quite a nice game with EQ2. I am just saying that VG is dead. VG has no potential. All is lost, etc.
As you said this is a business, therefore SOE will make the business decision to put 1 or 2 Devs on it. VG is a waste of development resources. It has nothing to do with being a hater. Do you realize that the company that built the game just went under?
The only reason they did not shut down the servers is because SOE saved it. Otherwise it would be another Dark and Light.
I disagree. There's no way that SOE bought out Sigil and Vanguard to only give it minimal support by only a handful of developers. That just wouldn't make much business sense. SOE started this venture with Sigil with only a minimal investment -- publishing, servers and tech support. Now they own it which is an even bigger investment. They could have cut their losses and severed their ties with Sigil but instead they bought the game. The only possible reason for doing that is they think they can turn it around and make money on it. No business I know of is actually in business to lose money. So I think SOE will probably at the outset give this game full developer support. If it proves that they can't turn it around and make money then my guess is they'll shut it down or give it minimal support.
I personally think it is a good thing, it seems as though soe will not let the devs change the game like nge type changes. Lets hope they develop the game like they have with eq2 in the right direction.
This game tanked just admit it....it sucks i know, but it is done for now....
Everyone do themselves a favor and cancel your subscription and save 6-12 months of subscription fees. Check back in those 6-12 months and see if it is worth it then.
I wanted this game to rock, but it just failed big time.....they just fired everyone...there will be a turn around time IF they can even get it back running.....I for one am not going to pay to help them re-beta and re-release this game - they owe me lol. This is a serious job which I am not saying isn't possible....I am saying if it works it is going to take a couple months minimum. Go play something else and have fun til then
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
From your phony address and low post count, I must say you look like a SOE staffer doing some viral marketing.
So iam wrong about them turning EQ2 into a great game? Yes you are. Its not a great game, and its lack of players online prove that.
According to what I've read and heard most of those whom were cut from Sigil were art staff. Art staff doesn't put out patches, focus on class re-balancing or debug code. In the software world having more people working on a project does not always mean you'll have a better end product. In fact more often then not having a small development group is usually better because it's easier to coordinate and ensure quality control when it comes to coding software. .... Improving VG so that it can sustain itself and generate further revenue seems to line up with their current "Modus Operandi".
First I will agree with you that SOE has a high chance of finding some way to make this game profitable. They have lots of experience making games with poor launches turn a buck. That isn't a dig, just some reality.
However, let me restate some of the simple truths of why the SOE buyout isn't a good thing.
The Sigil team consisted of (according to their website): 104 people (not including Keith Parkinson, Cindy Bowens and Smed)
6 Upper management
28 artists
4 marketing and PR
6 Customer support
12 Gm's
29 game designers
1 office admin
6 various IT related positions
12 programmers
That leaves the roughly 50 people rehired by SOE. Subtract the 5 developers moving to a new project and the math still DOES NOT ADD up to when you figure out how many people are cut. Assuming they fired most of the 28 artists (and somehow never need new animations, graphics or zones AKA raids) there are still deep cuts to important areas. (for example, the one game designer I knew who was in my EQ guild lost his job so it isn't just art or fluff getting cut)
I don't see how anyone can spin that to come to the conclusion that somehow more will get done with less people now that SOE is in charge. Also keep in mind this is the same team that was already struggling to fix the game, but now with 43% of the staff (or less). If they couldn't do it with 104, how is cutting down to 45 or less going to be more efficient.
Anyway it is sliced, losing over half of your team is going to seriously hurt production capabilities. It isn't like the troubles at Vanguard was that they had to many people and not enough work to be done.
Everything points to a slower longer more painful retooling process.
Personally I wager they try to force out an expansion to try to recoup some of their investment long before the base game is done.
Sigil was doing jack squat for the game. SOE improved EQ2 ALOT EQ2 was never playable, the preformanced sucked big time. Now look at the game, in the mmorpg.com review it says EQ2 has become one of the best mmorpgs out there. SMED realizes now he screwed up with NGE. It all looks good from here
This time i have faith in SOE and i was hoping they would finnally take over.
I think it will take a little time for everyone to pull out the hymn books and kick up the gospel music just yet. If the numbers drop considerally during this whole fiasco with Brad going "Brian Wilson" and employees giving tell-all's of the Shirt Factory -like tactics at Sigil then Smed will probably put a programmer and an art guy on it and forget about it all together.
Either way I have a new respect for Smed. He wins either way. Eliminate competition for EQ2 or add more subscribers with VG if it is successful. I always thought he was an idiot but in reality he just isn't a gamer.
Anyway like I said the internet is still enjoying the trainwreck. We can talk about getting the train running again later
First I will agree with you that SOE has a high chance of finding some way to make this game profitable. They have lots of experience making games with poor launches turn a buck. That isn't a dig, just some reality.
That leaves the roughly 50 people rehired by SOE. Subtract the 5 developers moving to a new project and the math still DOES NOT ADD up to when you figure out how many people are cut. Assuming they fired most of the 28 artists (and somehow never need new animations, graphics or zones AKA raids) there are still deep cuts to important areas. (for example, the one game designer I knew who was in my EQ guild lost his job so it isn't just art or fluff getting cut)
I don't see how anyone can spin that to come to the conclusion that somehow more will get done with less people now that SOE is in charge. Also keep in mind this is the same team that was already struggling to fix the game, but now with 43% of the staff (or less). If they couldn't do it with 104, how is cutting down to 45 or less going to be more efficient.
Anyway it is sliced, losing over half of your team is going to seriously hurt production capabilities. It isn't like the troubles at Vanguard was that they had to many people and not enough work to be done.
Everything points to a slower longer more painful retooling process.
Personally I wager they try to force out an expansion to try to recoup some of their investment long before the base game is done.
Makes sense that they'd cut staff if the sub numbers being tossed around (90K) are accurate. Their first move is to cut costs to be more in line with the revenue being generated. Sure, it will slow down the fixes and updates, but that's not their long-term concern...they want to make money off the game first and foremost.
Also, they may decide to add a few existing SOE employees to the team to provide support and guidance.
Every team has its star performers and its dogs...lets hope they got rid of only the underperformers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would hazard to guess they took the star performers and put them on the "undisclosed project", Nino for example.
I am in line with them cutting staff also as it makes sense. My point though is that people are cheering that SOE is now in control and proclaiming that somehow things will get fixed now despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Sony wants to make money, the game will get fixed slower (if at all) and the only people that suffer will be subscribers. Smed and company can blow all the smoke they want about good intentions for the game, but the reality is that it doesn't make financial sense to invest to heavily into it. Heck SWG has around the same number of subscribers (or more, depending on views) and they just cut staff to 20 developers.
Comments
Kind of have to agree on that one. I liked where the patching in Vanguard was headed, they have been making some good changes, but it does feel like a beta still. SOE seem entirely likely to make crafting progression in particular faster, so that may lose them most of the remaining "hard core" players, but unless they make the game somehow instantly less buggy and more accessible to a younger audience (think "NGE" or "psuedo-WoW" - bye bye remaining hard-core players) then they will be caught between their own improved EQ2 and the wardrums of new and enticing games on the horizon such as AoC and WAR, remembering of course that LoTRO is also out there on the shelf with WoW BC to woo people new to the genre.
I really do hope SOE can pull it off and make Vanguard into the game it deserved to be. But based on past experience I doubt it; I expect that I will never see a GM onscreen again either, they probably fired them all. Much more likely that they will effectively finish the beta process, consolidate servers, then leave it gasping on the shelf until the day they want to use the IP for a new game. Or, that Sony (the real Sony) will eventually decide that SOE is tarnishing its corporate brand too much and press the cancel button on SOE and just keep on working in with people who are better at making popular software products that make their platforms shine.
Flute.
I hate to burst your bubble but SOE will only put in limited resources after this initial fix period to get the game to a real production standard. Due to the low number of Subscribers they will not allocate a lot of people to work on VG. The people they keep from Sigil will go to work on more successful products.
While anything will be better than Sigil, VG has no future other than a 3rd rate MMO with a couple of servers. VG will make The Matrix Online look like a success.
How can they justify spending money on VG when the return will be so low? VG has no future and no hope. Just be glad they don't just turn off the servers.
So what? Even limited resources is going to be more than Sigil was capable of putting into it. This SOE hating and bashing is, in my opinion, idiotic. The same people bashing SOE for SWG are the same people begging for a 'classic' SWG server. If SOE relented and made a classic preCU server, does that mean that all of a sudden all the hate and bashing go away? Does it mean that SOE is any less evil. Seems to me these haters are like little kids throwing a temper tantrum for not getting their way. We look upon these games as entertainment but for SOE, Blizzard etc. it's a business. Everything they do is motivated by money. Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool. Why shouldn't it be that way? Nobody goes into business to lose money.I am not bashing SOE. I think they have made quite a nice game with EQ2. I am just saying that VG is dead. VG has no potential. All is lost, etc.
As you said this is a business, therefore SOE will make the business decision to put 1 or 2 Devs on it. VG is a waste of development resources. It has nothing to do with being a hater. Do you realize that the company that built the game just went under?
The only reason they did not shut down the servers is because SOE saved it. Otherwise it would be another Dark and Light.
Mmm, no denial of the viral marketing thing. Looks like an admission to me.
And really, SOE ^*$#ed up Vanguard so badly just by forcing a release when the game was so clearly not ready.
I got into the open beta. I was appalled by the poor performance, numerous bugs, and certain poorly designed gameplay aspects. In and of themselves seeing these things in beta shouldn't be bad - unless they were planning to release in a manner of weeks. And sure enough they released an unfinished product.
Vanguard had the potential to wipe the floor with every other MMO currently on the market. There were some really clever design elements. But they released early AND CHARGED PLAYERS MONEY for a game that still needed a significant amount of work to be enjoyable.
Someone takes my money and don't deliver the goods... they don't get my money again.
Not only did SOE's forcing Vanguard's premature release harm this game, but it has cemented in my mind how poorly they manage MMOs.
VG needs 2-3 years of further development. Would you have SOE wait that long? It has been almost 4 months and VG is still in pitiful shape.
They knew that they could release and get a big influx of cash that they needed. They even have a few misguided souls still playing it and paying to develop a game that has no future. It was (and is) a huge scam that even the Mafia would be proud of.
So iam wrong about them turning EQ2 into a great game?
Yep, they did turn EQ2 into a great game. So why would they turn Vanguard into a great game to compete with their flagship game??
It isn't to compete. It is to add variety. One with zones and one without. GOD I HATE ZONES.
PLEASE WAIT WHILE WE LOAD THE AREA THAT IS 5 MILES AWAY. EVENTHOUGH YOU JUST RANG THE DOCK BELL "DING DING" IMAGINE YOU ARE ON A SHIP TRAVELING FAR AWAY.
Or also I love the running down a path to have to stop and wait because developers like to treat areas like they are FPS levels. I am surprised I don't see a wall and switch appear so I can load the next area. ZONES SUCK AND SEEMLESS LANDS RULE
So iam wrong about them turning EQ2 into a great game?
You mean the one they released 6-12 months before it was ready then spent that time collecting subsribers money to bring it up to speed?
All this after declaring for over a year how eq2 wouldnt be released untill it was ready.
Yeah! Any day now SOE will make Vanguard more Star Warsy and Iconic! Hopefully there will be less reading, too.
DUHHHH, Maybe they will put girls with large breasts and Duhhh had dwarves that walk around saying stuff like Duhhh, Oppps I'm having a Wardrobe malfunction...BOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah theres me hammer!!!
Maybe on top of that they will have ahhhhhh, female elves that dance at a table , Yey and we can all pretend we are at a titty bar and stuff chuckle chuckle chuckle"
Wwwweeeeeee, yyyyyeeeeyyyyy .wooohooo everything is fun and dandy. I feel like my ADD is going away.... weeeeeee...
I hate trying to understand complex thoughts, I forget after the first sentence and words bore me if they become serious or dramatic.... Unless they are about MEEEE and how GREAT I AM WEEEEEE. Thank god for games like WoW now everything is sooo funny and I feel so high like a kite. Oh my, I am starting to feel dizzy and stuff.... Weee Wow is so fun. Everything is all about happy and friends and funny looking characters that are so innocent and joyfully glee....
YEY WOW, YEY NO READING, YEY FUN EQUALS NO THINKING.....CAN I GO POOP NOW?
VG needs 2-3 years of further development. Would you have SOE wait that long? It has been almost 4 months and VG is still in pitiful shape.
They knew that they could release and get a big influx of cash that they needed. They even have a few misguided souls still playing it and paying to develop a game that has no future. It was (and is) a huge scam that even the Mafia would be proud of.
This guy has hit the nail on the head pretty hard.
If VG is to be more than just another mmo AND have performance issues fixed. It will need a fair decent amount of development time WHILE the game is LIVE (I doubt they will take it down, they will want to milk it for all it's worth). By the time the game hits a stage of unique or even playable for some, future mmos will be released and the game will be out-dated.
VG will trot along holding whatever subscribers it can much like MxO, being milked.
That is what I think anyway. I would like to hope that the game is going to become something, since I do have the box 3 feet away from me acting like a big paperweight. I just don't see it happening.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs
Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW
Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
You clearly state Sigil wasn't doing squat for the game. I would argue that they were making some improvements since launch, but generally you are right that not enough was happening and it was to slow.
Sigil had roughly 100 people working on Vanguard.
SOE effectively cut the staff by over half, by only rehiring 50 or so people from Sigil. (not blaming SOE for the cut mind you)
Some of those people are moving to new projects.
EQ2 is SOEs flagship with a much larger dev team, support and larger playerbase. It took how many years and overhauls until people finally say it is a good game?
Combine all that and people are saying SOE will fix vangaurd into something great with less than half of what it has now, new management to report to, new ownership making decisions, restructuring all over and most likely new design directions.
This isn't SOE hate, nor is it the blind faith in SOE is somehow a miracle worker with MMOs.
Simply put, the math of the aquistion DOES NOT ADD UP to things getting better, let alone at a faster pace. You simply cannot do more with less.
vanguard didn't even sell as many boxes as EQ2 once had subscibers. No way it is going to get as much support as EQ2 did. It just doesn't mathematically make for realistic predictions.
Yeah! Any day now SOE will make Vanguard more Star Warsy and Iconic! Hopefully there will be less reading, too.
DUHHHH, Maybe they will put girls with large breasts and Duhhh had dwarves that walk around saying stuff like Duhhh, Oppps I'm having a Wardrobe malfunction...BOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah theres me hammer!!!
Maybe on top of that they will have ahhhhhh, female elves that dance at a table , Yey and we can all pretend we are at a titty bar and stuff chuckle chuckle chuckle"
Wwwweeeeeee, yyyyyeeeeyyyyy .wooohooo everything is fun and dandy. I feel like my ADD is going away.... weeeeeee...
I hate trying to understand complex thoughts, I forget after the first sentence and words bore me if they become serious or dramatic.... Unless they are about MEEEE and how GREAT I AM WEEEEEE. Thank god for games like WoW now everything is sooo funny and I feel so high like a kite. Oh my, I am starting to feel dizzy and stuff.... Weee Wow is so fun. Everything is all about happy and friends and funny looking characters that are so innocent and joyfully glee....
YEY WOW, YEY NO READING, YEY FUN EQUALS NO THINKING.....CAN I GO POOP NOW?
By all means. Be sure to change the diaper as soon as possible to avoid getting a rash
According to what I've read and heard most of those whom were cut from Sigil were art staff. Art staff doesn't put out patches, focus on class re-balancing or debug code. In the software world having more people working on a project does not always mean you'll have a better end product. In fact more often then not having a small development group is usually better because it's easier to coordinate and ensure quality control when it comes to coding software.
As for the devs that are going to be pulled to work on other projects. Well from what I've heard it only amounts to about 5 people I believe. As someone else stated though by the time SOE manages to turn things around other MMO's will be out. The best thing they can do is do a relaunch of Vangaurd with a new ad campaign. Then they can hope to garner enough new players and maintain enough old players to turn a profit on this game. Granted it's easier said then done. Yet if anyone can turn a game around and make money off it well it is SOE. In the end a game worth playing is a game worth paying for and VG has to be fixed so that it's worth both playing and paying. I believe SOE fully realizes the situation they are in and they have a better plan to fix it then Brad ever had IMHO.
I also don't believe SOE considers the idea of throwing all their eggs into one basket ( EQ2 ) to be a wise business choice. Hence the reason why they own so many profitable yet lackluster MMO's. Improving VG so that it can sustain itself and generate further revenue seems to line up with their current "Modus Operandi".
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
What you fail to realize my self-deluded friend, or maybe you do but your "excitement" is getting the best of you, is that SOE has left most of the same people from Sigil IN CHARGE of this games management/developement.
Did you read the interview from the ex-sigil employee? The SAME people that made such a steaming pile of crap out of Vanguard are STILL IN CHARGE! Get it? SOE oversite or not you can't expect the same dumbshits to improve this game. Perhaps if ALL of the Sigil management had been fired then this game MIGHT see a chance to realize it's potential.
Yes SOE did improve EQ2....however let's not forget that SOE is also the same one that made EQ2 and fucked up it's release.
All-in-all SOE is'nt going to help anything. This game is over..finite...finished and should be given the good buriel it deserves. Then held up to inspection so that future MMORPG developers go..."Hmmm. Hope we did good so we don't have a "Vanguard" on our hands."
Never be afraid of choices. More choices are always good things.
I am not bashing SOE. I think they have made quite a nice game with EQ2. I am just saying that VG is dead. VG has no potential. All is lost, etc.
As you said this is a business, therefore SOE will make the business decision to put 1 or 2 Devs on it. VG is a waste of development resources. It has nothing to do with being a hater. Do you realize that the company that built the game just went under?
The only reason they did not shut down the servers is because SOE saved it. Otherwise it would be another Dark and Light.
I disagree. There's no way that SOE bought out Sigil and Vanguard to only give it minimal support by only a handful of developers. That just wouldn't make much business sense. SOE started this venture with Sigil with only a minimal investment -- publishing, servers and tech support. Now they own it which is an even bigger investment. They could have cut their losses and severed their ties with Sigil but instead they bought the game. The only possible reason for doing that is they think they can turn it around and make money on it. No business I know of is actually in business to lose money. So I think SOE will probably at the outset give this game full developer support. If it proves that they can't turn it around and make money then my guess is they'll shut it down or give it minimal support.playing eq2 and two worlds
This game tanked just admit it....it sucks i know, but it is done for now....
Everyone do themselves a favor and cancel your subscription and save 6-12 months of subscription fees. Check back in those 6-12 months and see if it is worth it then.
I wanted this game to rock, but it just failed big time.....they just fired everyone...there will be a turn around time IF they can even get it back running.....I for one am not going to pay to help them re-beta and re-release this game - they owe me lol. This is a serious job which I am not saying isn't possible....I am saying if it works it is going to take a couple months minimum. Go play something else and have fun til then
So iam wrong about them turning EQ2 into a great game? Yes you are. Its not a great game, and its lack of players online prove that.
However, let me restate some of the simple truths of why the SOE buyout isn't a good thing.
The Sigil team consisted of (according to their website): 104 people (not including Keith Parkinson, Cindy Bowens and Smed)
6 Upper management
28 artists
4 marketing and PR
6 Customer support
12 Gm's
29 game designers
1 office admin
6 various IT related positions
12 programmers
That leaves the roughly 50 people rehired by SOE. Subtract the 5 developers moving to a new project and the math still DOES NOT ADD up to when you figure out how many people are cut. Assuming they fired most of the 28 artists (and somehow never need new animations, graphics or zones AKA raids) there are still deep cuts to important areas. (for example, the one game designer I knew who was in my EQ guild lost his job so it isn't just art or fluff getting cut)
I don't see how anyone can spin that to come to the conclusion that somehow more will get done with less people now that SOE is in charge. Also keep in mind this is the same team that was already struggling to fix the game, but now with 43% of the staff (or less). If they couldn't do it with 104, how is cutting down to 45 or less going to be more efficient.
Anyway it is sliced, losing over half of your team is going to seriously hurt production capabilities. It isn't like the troubles at Vanguard was that they had to many people and not enough work to be done.
Everything points to a slower longer more painful retooling process.
Personally I wager they try to force out an expansion to try to recoup some of their investment long before the base game is done.
I think it will take a little time for everyone to pull out the hymn books and kick up the gospel music just yet. If the numbers drop considerally during this whole fiasco with Brad going "Brian Wilson" and employees giving tell-all's of the Shirt Factory -like tactics at Sigil then Smed will probably put a programmer and an art guy on it and forget about it all together.
Either way I have a new respect for Smed. He wins either way. Eliminate competition for EQ2 or add more subscribers with VG if it is successful. I always thought he was an idiot but in reality he just isn't a gamer.
Anyway like I said the internet is still enjoying the trainwreck. We can talk about getting the train running again later
Also, they may decide to add a few existing SOE employees to the team to provide support and guidance.
Every team has its star performers and its dogs...lets hope they got rid of only the underperformers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am in line with them cutting staff also as it makes sense. My point though is that people are cheering that SOE is now in control and proclaiming that somehow things will get fixed now despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Sony wants to make money, the game will get fixed slower (if at all) and the only people that suffer will be subscribers. Smed and company can blow all the smoke they want about good intentions for the game, but the reality is that it doesn't make financial sense to invest to heavily into it. Heck SWG has around the same number of subscribers (or more, depending on views) and they just cut staff to 20 developers.
This isn't something to cheer about.