I'm not sure what you are saying. If I steal your credit card information, use that information to buy virtual currency, and buy virtual items from my friends who then turn that money into cash, are you saying that shouldn't be illegal? Why does money laundering become alright when its done through a game?
"Money laundering"?..."Alright"?...That sounds like the typical LE/authoritarian slant on matters. You do realize just why "money laundering" is "illegal"? Simply because the local thugs, whose territory the transactions take place in, aren't getting their "piece of the action". Did you notice the sponsors of that panel?...No conflict of interest there...
What about if you broker a sale in Lindendollars for heroin or kiddie porn? How can the law prosecute for selling narcotics, or selling child pornography, when buying transactions in game currency aren't considered real transactions?
LOL...All too predictable...The next button to be pushed just HAD to be "child pornography"... Think of the CHIL-DE-REN!!...Given the current hysteria, I'm surprised you didn't go for "terrorism"....But kiddie porn and drugs are old reliable stand bys, and can be used to push peoples emotional buttons.
Yet according to the article, this is exactly what is happening. Financial and legal institutions don't recognize game wealth as real wealth. Because they don't recognize game wealth as real wealth, people are using game currency to broker transactions that would be considered illegal if done through any other medium of exchange.
So, Big Brother wants to know how many gold pieces people have in game? No doubt the politicians
are already interested in discovering something else to tax...You consider this a "Good Thing"?
But here's the problem. When financial and legal institutions recognize game wealth as real wealth, it falls under the same laws as real income. Otherwise, you could theoretically buy a car for 25,000 dollars from a dealer, buy 25,000 dollars worth of Everquest currency, have the dealer and customer log into Everquest, transfer the game currency, and not have to pay sales tax on the car.
Oh, the HORROR!! You mean some thugs some where might lose out on extracting their pound of flesh?...
We all know that people are making Lindendollars by selling property in Second Life. Some are converting these Lindendollars into cash, and making significant amounts of income doing so. Now if it were any other legal income, you'd have to declare it. So why shouldn't the person who sells Lindendollars have to declare it just like everyone else? Is it because selling Lindendollars for cash isn't a recognizable transaction? If it isn't a recognizable transaction, then selling child pornography with online currency isn't a recognizable transaction either (which is exactly why they do it with online currency, apparently). If it is a recognizable transaction, then why can the person who sells electronic software pings get away without having to pay tax, when I can't, because I sell real things?
Back to "child pornography" again I see...Can't you make a rational argument, without resorting to emotional button pushing? Why not simply state that what ever group of "elected" or appointed thugs, happen to control a given territory should be able to control and extract their "cut" of anything that takes place within their sphere of power?
We seem to want to recognize online sales as legitimate means of exchange and wealth generation. We feel virtual property is real property. Yet the proof of whether or not its real and legitimate is if we declare it as real and legitimate income. Since I don't see anyone lining up at H&R Block to put it down as a real assett, I guess we are just fine with it being a shady, underhanded business with no legal standing or protection. And when black markets come about that are under the legal and financial radar, organized crime is soon to follow, because they can traffic their business through there with impunity.
"Legal standing" and "protection"? So, now we need the Nanny State to "protect" us on line? Why not take personal responsibility for ones actions, and pay attention to what one is doing, and take the proper precautions? Sure, some "Bad Things" MAY happen, but getting government involved in yet another aspect of our lives, is bound to make matters worse in the long term..One has only to look at the impact of government intervention in various market sectors, and areas to know that for a stone cold fact.
Well i didn't plan on keeping up with this discussion, but i got an email reminder for it lol so here goes.
To this replier it is quite obvious you look at the government as some type of "thug" and are easily angered at the mention of them doing their jobs. On the other hand you also have these same taxes to thank for many privileges that i am sure you enjoy weekly if not everyday. Among them the biggest being whatever national government that protects you from being overrun by true "thugs" while the government may have it's faults and certainly there are some very shady people in it the tax system itself is what keeps countries alive.
**
I used the word "thug" for a reason...What else is one to call those who use intimidation, threats and
coercion to achieve their agenda? As for any "protection" a government might provide, it is
entirely secondary to its main function...Rewarding its friends, and punishing its "enemies". But
I do agree with your above...taxes are the life blood of the state...Just like any vampire.
I can agree to an extent here the government has too much power and more control then it should, however nobody is to blame but the voters. When we have more people interested in voting for the next american idol then the president we have a problem. Not enough people are involved in the government and it hurts those who want change. However most of those that are hurt and feel the need to vent about it (myself included) still haven't made a serious effort at attempting to make a change.
Alot of what i hear when i bring it up is "What can i do? The corporations rule it all.." This is an extremely common statement i get. My favorite reply is then get together and influence the corporations. If we could only get enough people to get these heavy hitters to listen then we could see change. (example: Corp A lobby's for something the general population doesn't want and will most likely succeed based of their previous actions. So instead of complaining that the government shouldn't listen to them. Boycott that company completely and make sure they know why. Show them we will not tolerate their control over our government.)
Yes taxes are a pain and can/have been abused, but the general idea especially when you get to governing such a large population has it's benefits IF used right. To down the entire idea and system just doesn't make sense.
**
Without it you would most likely be forced into slave labor where you would have to work for free because nobody could afford to pay you or even worst the dictator demands a new foot stool. Whilst you may be quick to judge the current system and bash it down you may very well think about what you have and appreciate it as many others wish they could. Whether you want to believe it or not the USA is a great place to live especially when compared to many smaller nations and guess what? Taxes have helped create and maintain that.
**
Ah yes..The typical collectivist catch phrases. It seems the US managed to survive rather well,
before the advent of general taxation...Look at its history prior to the establishment of such.
As for our once great republic, one has only to point to the DHS, and all of its sub units,
and ask oneself what the Founders generation would have done to those who even
attempted to establish such, to know how far we have moved from the principles
that once made our country great.
Of course things worked before that do not now. Things have changed and a lot has been done to cause these changes. You mention the Founders generation which is great an all, but extremely outdated. People need to let go of the idea that the once great ideals for this country are no longer applicable. Many extreme circumstances have caused the need for several changes. Back then they didn't have to govern nearly a quarter the people we do now. Therefore a stronger presence is needed. Although i do not agree with some of the things done. I am a law abiding citizen and have no worries.
**
As for the person "playing on emotions" using the child pornography reference. I cannot say for sure if that was their intention or not, but child pornography is a serious issue that is on the rise and no matter if that was the persons intention or not it is not something to be easily tossed aside as this is a very likely venue for those perverted societal rejects to manipulate into a profit on child porn industry and should be very thoroughly looked at.
**
Yes it is serious...Which adds to its value as method of emotional manipulation. As for it being "on
the rise" is that a matter of reality, or an artifact of increased observation, or a useful fabrication?
It is very much a matter of reality. I've been working on a Digital Forensics degree and the professors instructing us have been in the field for many years and can without hesitation say this is 80% of their cases atleast. The only thing close to it is Identity Theft. I guess really it is all in how you use/read the statement to decide whether not it was meant as an emotional manipulation or a general concern. Personally it concerns me a good part of my education and my now earned minor in homeland security has been focused on catching these perverts.
Funny huh? I have a minor in Homeland Security and they are teaching me to track and catch child porn and ID thefts not babysit the general population for "speaking out against the government" like many think they do.
**
A tax doing this? Not necessarily, but laws made to harshen internet crimes from anything to hacking with 3rd party programs (including self made ones) to child porn. Unfortunately they will need funding to create task forces to enforce those laws and do you think they will draw that from the road tax funds? Not likely; they will need to create an online tax to help with that in my opinion and if it helps keep the WWW clear of people who think the anonymity of the internet will protect them from prosecution. Then i am all for it.
**
No doubt. All too many people are "all for it" when it comes to government "doing some thing about
that!"...Without of course paying attention to what the results are likely to be. I invite you to
study the history of governments intentions, and the consequences of its actions. Two entirely
different matters.
Of course no system is perfect and there are many issues that need to be ironed over, but we as the general public need to create the stiff hand that makes them listen. Many issues in the past are allowed to continue or came about because not enough people put forth the effort to be involved and do nothing.
Honestly this is just a matter of opinion, but personally i would rather have the government involved with stopping these perverts and annoyances then not. If let go then all we are saying to them is that we don't like it, but we won't stop you. To turn a blind eye to such actions is not going to work. Again i find myself thinking i abide by the laws and do nothing illegal that would bring about a concern of stricter laws therefore yes i am all for it. Honestly the only thing to fear when people talk about stricter laws for criminals is getting caught if your doing it.
**
Now please keep in mind i am not trying to bash you or your post, i am trying to help educate based upon my knowledge and experience which of course is not the end all of everything nor 100% accurate all the time However, perhaps some of this will help you think about exactly what you are mocking so harshly in your previous reply.
**
My goal is also to help educate..But the method required depends on the subject, and also
the audience. Mocking those who so richly deserve such, has its purpose.
I also like to try and help educate people on things of interest to me. However, there is never a need to "bash" anyone as everything is either a matter of fact or opinion and we are all entitled to an opinion whether not we agree. To try and 'attack' an opinion and say it has no merit is very wrong in my mind. Mocking is undoubtedly a great way to vent, but it's general characteristics make the statement less likely to be taken seriously. Granted that in itself is just my opinion others may think it is a great way to get a point across. I am just trying to help you understand my perspective on it.
I very much enjoy a good discussion especially when it related to something i have high interest in. So please if you have anything to reiterate do so! I know i am not the end opinion in the world and always am interested in seeing what other educated opinions are.
(Sorry this took so long been busy with classes heh)
Comments
To this replier it is quite obvious you look at the government as some type of "thug" and are easily angered at the mention of them doing their jobs. On the other hand you also have these same taxes to thank for many privileges that i am sure you enjoy weekly if not everyday. Among them the biggest being whatever national government that protects you from being overrun by true "thugs" while the government may have it's faults and certainly there are some very shady people in it the tax system itself is what keeps countries alive.
**
I used the word "thug" for a reason...What else is one to call those who use intimidation, threats and
coercion to achieve their agenda? As for any "protection" a government might provide, it is
entirely secondary to its main function...Rewarding its friends, and punishing its "enemies". But
I do agree with your above...taxes are the life blood of the state...Just like any vampire.
I can agree to an extent here the government has too much power and more control then it should, however nobody is to blame but the voters. When we have more people interested in voting for the next american idol then the president we have a problem. Not enough people are involved in the government and it hurts those who want change. However most of those that are hurt and feel the need to vent about it (myself included) still haven't made a serious effort at attempting to make a change.
Alot of what i hear when i bring it up is "What can i do? The corporations rule it all.." This is an extremely common statement i get. My favorite reply is then get together and influence the corporations. If we could only get enough people to get these heavy hitters to listen then we could see change. (example: Corp A lobby's for something the general population doesn't want and will most likely succeed based of their previous actions. So instead of complaining that the government shouldn't listen to them. Boycott that company completely and make sure they know why. Show them we will not tolerate their control over our government.)
Yes taxes are a pain and can/have been abused, but the general idea especially when you get to governing such a large population has it's benefits IF used right. To down the entire idea and system just doesn't make sense.
**
Without it you would most likely be forced into slave labor where you would have to work for free because nobody could afford to pay you or even worst the dictator demands a new foot stool. Whilst you may be quick to judge the current system and bash it down you may very well think about what you have and appreciate it as many others wish they could. Whether you want to believe it or not the USA is a great place to live especially when compared to many smaller nations and guess what? Taxes have helped create and maintain that.
**
Ah yes..The typical collectivist catch phrases. It seems the US managed to survive rather well,
before the advent of general taxation...Look at its history prior to the establishment of such.
As for our once great republic, one has only to point to the DHS, and all of its sub units,
and ask oneself what the Founders generation would have done to those who even
attempted to establish such, to know how far we have moved from the principles
that once made our country great.
Of course things worked before that do not now. Things have changed and a lot has been done to cause these changes. You mention the Founders generation which is great an all, but extremely outdated. People need to let go of the idea that the once great ideals for this country are no longer applicable. Many extreme circumstances have caused the need for several changes. Back then they didn't have to govern nearly a quarter the people we do now. Therefore a stronger presence is needed. Although i do not agree with some of the things done. I am a law abiding citizen and have no worries.
**
As for the person "playing on emotions" using the child pornography reference. I cannot say for sure if that was their intention or not, but child pornography is a serious issue that is on the rise and no matter if that was the persons intention or not it is not something to be easily tossed aside as this is a very likely venue for those perverted societal rejects to manipulate into a profit on child porn industry and should be very thoroughly looked at.
**
Yes it is serious...Which adds to its value as method of emotional manipulation. As for it being "on
the rise" is that a matter of reality, or an artifact of increased observation, or a useful fabrication?
It is very much a matter of reality. I've been working on a Digital Forensics degree and the professors instructing us have been in the field for many years and can without hesitation say this is 80% of their cases atleast. The only thing close to it is Identity Theft. I guess really it is all in how you use/read the statement to decide whether not it was meant as an emotional manipulation or a general concern. Personally it concerns me a good part of my education and my now earned minor in homeland security has been focused on catching these perverts.
Funny huh? I have a minor in Homeland Security and they are teaching me to track and catch child porn and ID thefts not babysit the general population for "speaking out against the government" like many think they do.
**
A tax doing this? Not necessarily, but laws made to harshen internet crimes from anything to hacking with 3rd party programs (including self made ones) to child porn. Unfortunately they will need funding to create task forces to enforce those laws and do you think they will draw that from the road tax funds? Not likely; they will need to create an online tax to help with that in my opinion and if it helps keep the WWW clear of people who think the anonymity of the internet will protect them from prosecution. Then i am all for it.
**
No doubt. All too many people are "all for it" when it comes to government "doing some thing about
that!"...Without of course paying attention to what the results are likely to be. I invite you to
study the history of governments intentions, and the consequences of its actions. Two entirely
different matters.
Of course no system is perfect and there are many issues that need to be ironed over, but we as the general public need to create the stiff hand that makes them listen. Many issues in the past are allowed to continue or came about because not enough people put forth the effort to be involved and do nothing.
Honestly this is just a matter of opinion, but personally i would rather have the government involved with stopping these perverts and annoyances then not. If let go then all we are saying to them is that we don't like it, but we won't stop you. To turn a blind eye to such actions is not going to work. Again i find myself thinking i abide by the laws and do nothing illegal that would bring about a concern of stricter laws therefore yes i am all for it. Honestly the only thing to fear when people talk about stricter laws for criminals is getting caught if your doing it.
**
Now please keep in mind i am not trying to bash you or your post, i am trying to help educate based upon my knowledge and experience which of course is not the end all of everything nor 100% accurate all the time
**
My goal is also to help educate..But the method required depends on the subject, and also
the audience. Mocking those who so richly deserve such, has its purpose.
I also like to try and help educate people on things of interest to me. However, there is never a need to "bash" anyone as everything is either a matter of fact or opinion and we are all entitled to an opinion whether not we agree. To try and 'attack' an opinion and say it has no merit is very wrong in my mind. Mocking is undoubtedly a great way to vent, but it's general characteristics make the statement less likely to be taken seriously. Granted that in itself is just my opinion others may think it is a great way to get a point across. I am just trying to help you understand my perspective on it.
I very much enjoy a good discussion especially when it related to something i have high interest in. So please if you have anything to reiterate do so! I know i am not the end opinion in the world and always am interested in seeing what other educated opinions are.
(Sorry this took so long been busy with classes heh)